Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 12, 2004, 02:42:46 AM
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 12, 2004, 05:47:43 PM
I tried 5 Buzzsaws and am dissatisified with the performance of these balls period. Give me the old Amf Angle Evolution line, the Ebonite V2 line and the Storm line-up of balls over the Buzzsaws anyday.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 12, 2004, 05:49:56 PM
Post by: JOE FALCO on August 12, 2004, 06:13:26 PM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 12, 2004, 06:20:44 PM
I hate to say it but Drillwizard a very nice guy just bought 4 visionary balls from ebay for 335.00 shipped and Doug which i like what i read from him and would use him in a minute are going to put under by Lane 1s greed to control the small base of core bowlers like me and others. I hope this policy chnages asap because price control is plain bad for all of us!!
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 12, 2004, 06:36:31 PM
Their lack of performance bothers me more than the price. I don't mind paying a price for a ball that performs, but I don't like paying a price for a ball that doesn't perform.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: DanH78 on August 12, 2004, 06:41:06 PM
What a coincidence. Don't ya think?
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The clock on the wall says 3 O'Clock...last call...for Alcohol!
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 12, 2004, 06:42:05 PM
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 12, 2004, 06:56:27 PM
Post by: gbushman on August 12, 2004, 06:59:57 PM
I have a BUZZSAW arsenal but will NOW be looking for a DIFFERENT brand. Any SUGGESTIONS?
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TOO many IDIOTS, so LITTLE time.
Edited on 8/12/2004 6:56 PM
Post by: DanH78 on August 12, 2004, 07:01:19 PM
I couldn't care less about your phone records. As I said "What a coincidence"
co·in·ci·dence
n.
1. The state or fact of occupying the same relative position or area in space.
2. A sequence of events that although accidental seems to have been planned or arranged.
I believe the events of today fit number 2 to a T, would you not agree?
Sorry if your feelings got hurt, I was only pointing out what I saw as two very interesting events. And considering you have no idea if I was talking to you, I think being told to "shove" anything is a bit out of line, but since you nothing about me other than what is typed on this screen, doesn't bother me a bit.
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The clock on the wall says 3 O'Clock...last call...for Alcohol!
Edited on 8/12/2004 10:54 PM
Post by: Steven on August 12, 2004, 07:03:24 PM
And if you don't like Lane#1, don't buy. They do offer a product that's a little different from the others, and their balls are desirable to many. You either pay what they want, or you don't. They obviously sell enough to stay in business, so they continue on.
Deal with it.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: DanH78 on August 12, 2004, 07:10:57 PM
I do agree, that they are legally allowed to charge whatever they want and they don't have to sell to people who are not willing to follow their price requirements.
I don't know the actual prices, but let's say they sell the ball to a proshop for $140, if that pro shop only wants to make $10 on the ball, shouldn't they be allowed to sell the ball for $150? The supplier already got their money, what should they care?
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The clock on the wall says 3 O'Clock...last call...for Alcohol!
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 12, 2004, 07:27:30 PM
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on August 12, 2004, 07:28:29 PM
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16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is!
The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior PrincessAnd why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!
Post by: Steven on August 12, 2004, 07:34:56 PM
"Among producers" is the key phrase above. If Lane#1 and Brunswick get together and establish a minimum price for their respective equipment, then price fixing has occurred. On the other hand, if Lane#1 tells their respective resellers the minimum price that their equipment can be sold for, then Lane#1 is on solid legal ground.
Lane#1 obviously wants to maintain their price point. That's their legal right.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: TyLytle on August 12, 2004, 07:41:19 PM
Just kidding with ya..
Ty
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 12, 2004, 07:41:40 PM
Post by: TyLytle on August 12, 2004, 08:07:49 PM
I have had two Lane 1 balls, Didn't like either. I won't buy any others for sure now. I was thinking about a uranium, But naa, I will stick with Storm, Dyno, And Brunswick foremost.
Ty
Post by: JOE FALCO on August 12, 2004, 10:38:08 PM
quote:
Glad you folks have finally seen the light .. although I HAVE BOUGHT Lane 1 balls .. I've seen all along what you guys are talking about .. .. there will be bowlers that won't see it .. but all I can do is WISH THEM LUCK!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: DanH78 on August 12, 2004, 11:16:43 PM
quote:
Dan: Price fixing is control (by agreement among producers or by government) of the price of a commodity.
"Among producers" is the key phrase above. If Lane#1 and Brunswick get together and establish a minimum price for their respective equipment, then price fixing has occurred. On the other hand, if Lane#1 tells their respective resellers the minimum price that their equipment can be sold for, then Lane#1 is on solid legal ground.
Lane#1 obviously wants to maintain their price point. That's their legal right.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Let's see, I said it was legal. And it's legal because the end consumer still has the choice to buy a different brand of bowling ball.
THey are selling their product for price X. They are then requiring the vendors to resell their product for price Y. There are varying degrees of price fixing, this falls in to it. I'm sorry for trying to simplify the concept for those out there without Economics degrees.
The proshops can not differentiate based on product, as all Lane 1 balls are of the same quality. Now, the manufacturer has taken away the ability to differeniate based on Price. There go 2 key ways to differentiate yourself from the competition.
<hangs head in shame and tears up Bachelor's of Economics degree>
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The clock on the wall says 3 O'Clock...last call...for Alcohol!
Post by: seadrive on August 13, 2004, 10:53:28 AM
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seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: Steven on August 13, 2004, 01:54:52 PM
quote:
Steven, there is a difference between selling your product at whatever price you desire, and requiring that secondary sellers charge for your product. It is also known as Price fixing, and is generally one of the items brought up during anti trust cases.
Dan: When you brought up anti trust cases, you were at least inferring that Lane#1's tactics bordered on being illegal. So you did in fact put your toe into the legal playpen.
quote:
<hangs head in shame and tears up Bachelor's of Economics degree>
Don't tear that Economics degree up! I received my Economics degree from UCLA, and I'm proud of all the work that went into earning it -- be proud of yours too.
However, sometimes we get excited and get caught up in the emotion of what we want to see vs. what's actually legal and prevalent throughout the US economy. Clearly, Lane#1 wants to position themselves as a premium line of bowling balls, and they desire to establish pricing accordingly. The market ultimately dictates if this is acceptable, so I don't really understand why this is an emotional issue.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 13, 2004, 02:37:57 PM
Bose Corporation does the same thing ! Deal with it.......
I am a non bias Lane 1 person....don't love em, don't hate em.......
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JEFF
There is doing in not doing
Post by: janderson on August 13, 2004, 03:00:10 PM
Thanks in advance
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: JOE FALCO on August 13, 2004, 03:09:46 PM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: Next Level PS on August 13, 2004, 03:32:10 PM
Is lane1 not giving the shops a lower price based quanity brought?
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
"I'm Rick James B!%(H" RIP
Post by: No Fear on August 13, 2004, 04:46:03 PM
Post by: solid9pin on August 13, 2004, 04:54:36 PM
quote:
Buddies is selling the Uranium solid on ebay for 165.00 Buy it now price....another seller at 170.00 Buy it now price....& there are several going for less than 120.00 with a couple of days left....So whats all the fuss about?
*SIGH*
Post by: Saw Mill on August 13, 2004, 09:33:22 PM
What happened to? You used to love your Saws, and they were working well for you. As for them burning up; if drilled for the condition, and used on the right condition, they WILL not burn up. Not one Saw that I have burns up, when used on the right condition. I will continue to Saw up the pins, and I would take the challenge to match any of my Saws up against any of the haters. See, that is the difference bewteen most Saw users and ANY other ball user, we may love our stuff, BUT we do not say that the others suck just because they are not Saws.
Dave
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If You Are Not Using a BuzzSaw, All You Get is SAW-dusted; if you Upset Clump, You Gets Clumped Up!!
Post by: Ernie McCracken on August 13, 2004, 09:40:24 PM
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Evolutionary. Revolutionary.
Post by: shimozukawa on August 13, 2004, 09:59:51 PM
I don't see how anyone is arguing this to be illegal in ANY manner. Market economics (basic, SIMPLE supply-demand) allows the market to determine a set of prices at which an item will sell. This is a downward sloping curve of some sort. (This does not account for incidental short-run speculation, so please don't bring up perceived demand pricing.)
Along this curve rest different valuations for price points (cost, max economic profits, max true profits, et al). By setting a pricing floor, Lane #1 is simply exercising its contractural rights as a manufacturer. If you don't like it, don't buy our product. This is actually a well-employed marketing strategy by many industries. People grumble that Lane #1 is going to run itself out of business. Maybe, but probably not.
I remember (from Econ 130) that bowling is considered to be a regressive industry, thriving during weaker economies. Now that the PBA is pushing HARD, maybe that image might change. Lane #1 is banking on the change of image.
In a stable economy, affluent individuals gravitate toward items and acquisitions that are somewhat exclusive. Case in point: Jaguar. (I don't like the cars myself.) Jaguar owners are willing to spend more money on these vehicles because they know they are limited in number (200,000 per year). Jaguar dealers are told a minimum price at which they are allowed to sell the cars. (Probably true for other car brands, as well... but that would only fuel my point.)
Now adapt this rational to the bowling ball manufacturing scene. Lane #1 came out with the Buzzsaw guarantee with a retail price point of $269 or whatever it was. Over time, their balls started selling closer to the retail price point of competing manufacturers. Since Lane #1 doesn't pour its own balls, they pay some sort of commission structure to Brunswick for each pour.
Whereas other manufacturers (with their own facilities) can release 30+ balls a year and saturate the market, Lane #1 doesn't have this liberty.
I am guessing the price floor is a means to limit demand to an exclusive group which is willing to pay a premium for Lane #1 products. By restricting the price at which proshops can sell the balls, Lane #1 will limit orders to a level at which supply will closely mimic demand. In doing so, Lane #1 will minimize over saturation of the market with Buzzsaw bowling balls.
Now for the numbers:
Say a Brunswick ball costs $25 in actual production costs. (Not including costs absorbed through R&D, but the actual manufacturing cost of making one ball -- economies of scale notwithstanding.)
Lane #1 needs to pay Brunswick a fee to pour their balls. If Brunswick charges a 20 percent markup, that's $30 per ball poured. I'm thinking it must be closer to $45.
That already places Lane #1 at a premium price over major ball companies.
Now, let's say Lane #1 tried to release its balls like a "normal" ball company. If they blitzed the market with as many balls as they could produce, at some point, they would reach market saturation (similarly to how the larger companies do). However, unlike those manufacturers pouring their own balls, with each ball that is produced, lane #1 has to pay a premium (the $5-$20 difference mentioned above). So, for each ball of over production, Lane #1 absorbs that additional percentage as a penalty.
There are two ways to accommodate this penalty:
1) Restrict production.
2) Pass on the costs of production.
In effect, by instituting the price floor, Lane #1 is possibly lowering customer prices in the long run. (I know, it might not make sense as I stated it, but it does make sense.)
Also, because Lane #1 is a smaller company, they can't spend as much on R&D as larger manufacturers. The Diamond core led to Brunswick's Quantum line. I'm fairly certain that the Buzzsaw patent is about to expire (five years more or so), and it only makes sense for them to establish their name as a premium brand now BEFORE other companies start making generic "diamond cores".
Anyhow, my point is that the price floors are VERY MUCH legal, and actually a sound economic strategy -- in this particular case. Buzzsaw needs to establish itself as a premium product to maintain a market in the current economy of "ball of the month" bowling.
And _that_ is my two cents.
PS: Before anyone says I'm a Saw-head. I'm not. I have owned two Buzzsaws in my life and gave both away. Actually, make that three. The third, I didn't even drill... just gave it away. The balls don't work for me. They may work for some individuals, but not my game.
Post by: JOE FALCO on August 13, 2004, 11:15:17 PM
quote:
Glad you folks have finally seen the light .. although I HAVE BOUGHT Lane 1 balls .. I've seen all along what you guys are talking about .. .. there will be bowlers that won't see it .. but all I can do is WISH THEM LUCK!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: Doug Sterner on August 13, 2004, 11:40:14 PM
What Richie and Lane 1 are trying to do is get you to buy them from your local pro shops instead of over the Internet. By setting a price floor Richie is guaranteeing that no Internet shops can undersell the local shops.
To let the truth be told, the $180 floor was set at allowed a 6.5% profit margin. Whew!! we are all going to get rich!!! Again to let the truth out of the bag, when I set my pricing I can mark up Buzzsaws about $10-15 over cost and that's it. I make a whole lot more on Storm and Ebonite stuff yet they cost less...hmmm...go figure.
In short guys it is now time for you to come down on your LOCAL shops and tell them to stop charging such outrageous prices for Lane 1 balls. There is no reason for any pro shop to put such a mark up on a ball like many shops do on Lane 1 stuff. I am selling Uraniums for $179 in the shop plus $45 for a axis point referenced drilling with inserts and slug included. So hat's $224 plus tax. There are plenty of shops that charge that for an X Factor that cost them $120!
So guys think about it before going off the deep end.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
The Cherry is the Bomb
And the Uranium blows them all away!
Now accepting VISA/MC and Discover for your purchases
Post by: Next Level PS on August 14, 2004, 12:00:22 AM
Good Luck fellows those ultimate and intenses look real good with the 4 for 1 offer.
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
"I'm Rick James B!%(H" RIP
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 14, 2004, 12:02:34 AM
quote:
I would take the challenge to match any of my Saws up against any of the haters.
Saw Mill, I don't hate Saws, but no longer love them either other than the Uranium and that ball will remain with me a long time unless something changes. I'm not going to say that I will never buy one again either.
The Uranium is so versatile that it will work on most any condition clear up to medium plus, but I can't say that for the other 4 Saws I bought. At one time the Emerald worked. Today it no longer works, even after cover changes it doesn't work. The Blueberry and Golden Nugget never did work from day one and I no longer own them. And the XXXL? Well it's just a plastic ball like any Storm, Ebonite, Brunswick etc. plastic ball. (Except it costs more)
Maybe the lane conditions have changed, maybe I have changed, etc., I don't know the answer. If I had the answer, I would fix the problem quickly. All I can tell you at the moment is that the Saws (with the exception of the Uranium) no longer work for me, but Ebonite and Storm balls do. Both the Ebonite V2 sanded & V2 Pearl worked for me before I bought my first Saw, they worked while I was buying Saws (both thinking and being blindly led to believe the Saws were better) and since I quit buying Saws the V2's still work and are used today. The sanded V2 is very versatile like the Uranium. It will handle heavier Oil than the Uranium, but not as light of oil as the Uranium.
I have found out the expensive way that as far as I am concerned, at least for me, that no one company's balls will work for everyone. For me a mix of different company's balls work best for me. I have in my bag right now, Lane 1, AMF, Storm, and Ebonite and they all work on the conditions I bowl on.
Hopefully this explains why I turned into a Turncoat, Rat, Chicken Sheet or whatever else a Saw person wants to call me. Sorry, but that's the way it is and I doubt I ever will commit to one company only, again.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: brianthegwp69 on August 14, 2004, 12:08:22 AM
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 14, 2004, 12:21:58 AM
quote:
In short guys it is now time for you to come down on your LOCAL shops and tell them to stop charging such outrageous prices for Lane 1 balls.
Doug, you and I have a good relationship and I don't want to destroy it. I will still continue to recommend you to others as I always have. However in the referenced statement above, I believe that it is Lane 1 that is charging the pro-shops like yours outrageous prices. You acknowledged that balls like Storm, Brunswick, and etc. that you make more money because they don't cost you as much. Think about it, if Lane 1 would sell to you at the same price, you could make a good profit off their balls too, plus the public could have a Saw at the same price as other balls.
With other companies balls being of at least equal quality and working just as good as a Saw, if I was running a pro-shop, I would push the other lines of balls over Lane 1 so that I could make a decent profit. I have always stayed out of this price conflict thing, but now that I've let my self get drawn in, let me say that to date, Lane 1 has never given a reasonable explaination why their balls cost so much, other than this Core thing of which I don't buy and even if true, wouldn't add that much to the cost of a ball.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: Doug Sterner on August 14, 2004, 01:21:59 AM
Yes, Jim, we do have a great relationship and I value that. Here's what I am saying...
Depending on how much a shop buys from Lane 1, they pay a different price. The reason for the price floor is to eliminate a shop like me (who pays less) from selling for a lower price than another shop pays for the ball. And I commend them for doing that. They don't want the big shops running the little guy out of business because they cannot afford to do the volume.
Look at the companies that offer a pro shop program...the one ebonite offers is $2000, and the rest are like $600-800. Can I afford them? No but guess what? The big shops can afford them all so they get all of the free balls and specials on bags etc.
So, in short, I'll keep selling and throwing Lane 1 stuff until I find something better. I am in the business to help bowlers do better and score. If I were in it for a living, I might think differently. BUt until I am among the owners in teh bowling industry and relying on it for my livlihood, I'll be happy making enough to cover my bowling, my equipment and a hamburger and fries on shop nights :-)
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
The Cherry is the Bomb
And the Uranium blows them all away!
Now accepting VISA/MC and Discover for your purchases
Edited on 8/14/2004 1:22 AM
Post by: Doug Sterner on August 14, 2004, 04:22:11 AM
When I hear students talk about bowling and how it sucks because they can't get a ball to fit, it upset me. So I got into the business to give the local bowlers an option. An option to go to a different place. A place where the person in charge cared about them and not about making money. Getting the customer into what they need is more important than the amount of profit I make.
Is my pro shop a hobby? Maybe but I subscribe to the "work hard, play hard" philosophy. It is also a well known fact that many people put more energy and heart into their hobbies than their careers. So I want to help those people with a passion for the sport...do I need to inflate my bank account to do this? NO! I am a school teacher, I am used to working hard for little in return.
I have never once complained about being a small shop or not making a lot of money because that is not the reason I am in it. I am in it to help the bowler succeed and get what they need to enjoy the sport. If more people would take this outlook on the business, bowling would not be in the sad state of affairs that it currently is.
BG221,
I feel your dissatisfaction with some of the Saws was a result in me not ever having seen you bowl. I am still confident that any bowler can use a Saw but some bowlers benefit more than others. With some surface work and some creative drillings, there is not a single person who cannot benefit from Lane 1. It takes a great relationship between pro shop and bowler to make it 100% effective. I apologize for not being able to serve you and help you as I should have. Perhaps your results would have been different if that was the case.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
The Cherry is the Bomb
And the Uranium blows them all away!
Now accepting VISA/MC and Discover for your purchases
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 14, 2004, 11:00:59 AM
quote:
Brickguy--Why did it take buying 5 Buzzsaws before you
found out that you didn't like their performance? Couldn't
you have done this a few balls sooner?
Jimmy, the answer to your question is in my post. Why do you care why? It doesn't concern you. It was my money and I lost. OK?????????.....
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Edited on 8/14/2004 10:57 AM
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 14, 2004, 11:13:29 AM
quote:
It takes a great relationship between pro shop and bowler to make it 100% effective. I apologize for not being able to serve you and help you as I should have. Perhaps your results would have been different if that was the case.
Doug, no appology needed. You are a great guy. Don't blame yourself. As I said in one of my posts here.... "I was blindly led to believe etc. etc. etc."..... You didn't push me to buy Saws. I blindly let others sucker me in and do this. Summary....It was all my fault and not yours. Have a good day.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Edited on 8/14/2004 11:11 AM
Post by: lane1lefty on August 14, 2004, 03:01:33 PM
Post by: brianthegwp69 on August 14, 2004, 04:29:12 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 14, 2004, 08:03:45 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brickguy--You put it in a post, so it is fair game for
anyone to comment on. Why continue to buy balls from
a line that doesn't work for you.
Jimmy T, what is there to debate? The answer is in my post on the second page of this topic, so there is nothing to debate.
quote:
Doug--Being altruistic in business may be fine, but the
obvious reason for most businesses is to make money. If
you don't make profit, how long will that business be
a viable concern? Then who can you help? If as a
teacher, you want to help someone, Kingpin is in dire
need of your services.
Jimmy T, Doug Sterner is a successful School Teacher with a successful Pro-Shop on the side. He likes what he is doing and he likes it the way he is doing things. He makes a small profit, and he is happy, so why do you keep commenting to him about the way he runs his business? FYI, the Bowling House he has his Shop in is a small house and does not have a lot of bowlers and the business potential is not big enough to support a full time Pro Shop or for a Pro Shop operator to support a family.
Now, let me ask you a question. Why do you not have a profile?
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: brimar on August 14, 2004, 11:29:17 PM
I CHOOSE not to buy lane 1 cause the price is a little to high for me (thats my own feeling) no different than i dont buy Bose over jvc, or cadillac over Pontiac or wonder bread versus the store brand. I work pretty hard for my money and i try to get the most out of it.
Lane 1 obviously has a market for their equipment or they wouldnt do what they do. Last time i checked this was america and you can run your business (within the law) anyway you want. Do i like there higher prices? no i dont but no one is makin be buy them either!
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Go Yanks
Bri
Post by: a_ak57 on August 14, 2004, 11:29:38 PM
No hostility here, but jimmy, if you dont' need advice, and offer none, why waste your time here? You should be out bowling that 300.
Is it to keep us in line or something? --------------------
My name is not Andy. No, seriously. For real. I'm not just saying that to make you think I'm lying and my name is Andy, cause it really isn't.
Seriously. o_O
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 15, 2004, 10:49:33 AM
quote:
Brickguy--I made a couple of posts--no debate.
Jimmy, that is correct....There was nothing to debate. The answers to your question were there.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 15, 2004, 11:19:17 PM