Post by: charlest on May 02, 2008, 10:31:37 AM
I ask because, as reviewed, the cover is finished with an 800 grit matte or dull surface. As things go in today's bowling world, this is an very rough coverstock finish (seeing as how Fury Pearls, Black Widows, Breaks, and Risings are finsihed with a 4000 grit finish).
Yet BTM rates this ball with a long length of 14 and a backend of "only" 14 AND and overall hook of, again, "only" 47. Torque is rated at a "calm" 6.0. These numbers describe an extremely mild ball, with an extremely mild coverstock.
What do you "believe"?
Inquiring minds want to know (really)?
Please, no jokes. This is not a joking matter. I am not spending $200 (ball + drilling) on a joke.
What have you seen using this ball?
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: revTrex on May 02, 2008, 07:06:57 PM
Haven't seen one rolled in person, but having tested balls for BJI, and in knowing Joey, I trust his analysis of things.
--------------------
www.900global.com
www.bowlersjournal.com
Post by: charlest on May 02, 2008, 07:19:04 PM
quote:
When I saw the BJI review, I think Joey only gave it a total hook of around 49...meaning it's definitely not a super hooker by any means. He noticed its smooth, arcing reaction -- nothing jumpy or super "exciting." It'd be a step under a Widow, a Break, etc...more along the lines of a medium oil benchmark ball.
Haven't seen one rolled in person, but having tested balls for BJI, and in knowing Joey, I trust his analysis of things.
--------------------
www.900global.com
www.bowlersjournal.com
I understand his take on it. For him it was a much stronger ball. I'm trying to find the balance between his opinion and BTM's, who found it a much weaker ball.
FYI He gave it a 50 overall.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: revTrex on May 02, 2008, 08:12:57 PM
Also, BTW, note that a score of 50 isn't by any means super strong. I just looked up Joey's review, and, "The ball reaction shape and total hook amount basically fits in the middle of all Lane Masters' high-performance equipment. We felt the Rebellion matched up best on most medium volumes for the majority of release styles." That's pretty close to what I said. For reference, the Code was given a hook rating of 50; the Momentum a 51; the Gravity Shift a 53. So I don't think he means to say it was that much stronger. Honestly, in my opinion, you might be getting to a point where you're splitting hairs between BTM's review and BJI's. I think they tell a similar story, even if the numbers are slightly, slightly different (also remember they have different scales).
Anyways, good luck in your ball search.
--------------------
www.900global.com
www.bowlersjournal.com
Edited on 5/2/2008 8:21 PM
Post by: charlest on May 02, 2008, 08:56:51 PM
I'm not sure if it's splitting hairs or not. The focus of my concern in the TR at 800 grit is "only" as strong as the Momentum, the Temper, or even Lanemaster own World Class Reactive at 800/2000 grit polished. To my mind, that's a big difference.
BTM gave it an overall 47, which makes it almost a light weight by comparison. The Wizard/Nemesis at 800 grit dull got a 51 overall hook.
Everything's relative these days.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Edited on 5/4/2008 1:07 AM
Post by: Bogeyman on May 02, 2008, 10:25:17 PM
Edited on 5/4/2008 9:45 PM
Post by: Jay on May 03, 2008, 01:25:02 AM
The reaction seemed pretty controllable but he didn't do so well with it(bowler error I'll assume). I'd say around Medium conditions and maybe even medium-dry are the ideal conditions for this ball.
Post by: jd1319 on May 03, 2008, 09:13:54 AM
Post by: stringer on May 03, 2008, 02:54:15 PM
Post by: charlest on May 03, 2008, 03:55:23 PM
quote:
Weak and lanemaster should never be in the same sentence. I once owned a Satisfaxion that I got for dryer shots. Although this ball did not roll at your feet, it could cover the whole lane on the backend.
I can't believe anyone is telling me that.
I kind of know that; after all I'm the one that started 90% of the people here on ballreviews on Legends/Lanemasters balls 4 years ago.
Sorry if I confused you. Let me put what I have been trying to say, as plainly as I can; so I won't confuse anyone else:
By "weak" I meant relatively, given its 800 grit stock surface. No other L/Lm ball has ever come 800 grit dull before (except maybe the Guaranteed). The XS POwer was supposed to, but Lanemasters changed their mind at the last second and made it polished. 800 grit is INCREDIBLY dull for any Lanemasters ball. 2000 grit is the roughest I have ever been able to use any Lanemasters ball Since their new line starting with the New Standard and the Yeah Baby first came out. More often, I use 4000 grit or a polsihed finish.
For an 800 grit dull Lanemasters ball to get the MILD rating that BTM gave the Terminator Rebellion, either BTM got their numbers mixed up or this is THE mildest coverstock Lanemasters has ever made.
So I wanted everyone who has used the TR to tell mehow strong or weak it is compared to their other Lanemasters balls.
Thank you.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Edited on 5/3/2008 3:56 PM
Post by: ekster on May 03, 2008, 07:16:00 PM
They are quality products!!
--------------------
In SE Michigan, it's AMBT
http://www.americanmastersbowling.com
Post by: charlest on May 03, 2008, 07:34:36 PM
quote:
I have seen exactly one Lane Masters ball used in my life. Visionary is not far behind.
Personally if it ain't 900 Global/AMF, Brunswick, Columbia, Ebonite, Hammer, Track, Roto/Storm I am not buying it.
A closed mind is often not a useful tool.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Edited on 5/3/2008 7:34 PM
Post by: Keith Frye on May 03, 2008, 08:33:16 PM
It is definitely a control ball with not a great deal of bounce off the dry. I have not yet tried it on a house shot as I only bowled in two PBA Experience Leagues. I imagine it would play well along the oil line of a heavily walled pattern.
Post by: charlest on May 04, 2008, 01:04:46 AM
quote:
oddly enough, I'm finding my rebellion very strong in OOB condition on multiple lane conditions. Head to head from medium to heavy conditions, it has outhooked the terminator, WCPP (2 different ones with different drillings) and the black pearl. I'm really stumped as to where it fits in my arsenal. It's not just my opinion as well, a friend of my who owns a center is also seeing the same results with his rebellion and his other lanemasters equipment. (He has BP, Terminator, and several others as well)
jd1319,
Thanks for sharing that bit of info.
If the TR is as the BTM review says it is, this may be because there is not enough oil for the Terminator (& the WCPP and the BP, both being strongish particle balls). We know the Terminator is a solid particle meant for a good deal of oil. If the TR is hooking more than the Term itself AND the review is an accurate picture of the TR, then there must not be enough oil for it. Remember house blend tend to blur the difference between balls, allowing you to use many different balls on the same pattern.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on May 04, 2008, 01:05:47 AM
quote:
My Rebellion has a label drill with the pin above ring finger about 4.5 inches from PAP. With the box surface, it checked up too soon on most conditions for me. I hit it with Storm Step 2 and got much better length. I should mention that I have medium to medium-low ball speed.
It is definitely a control ball with not a great deal of bounce off the dry. I have not yet tried it on a house shot as I only bowled in two PBA Experience Leagues. I imagine it would play well along the oil line of a heavily walled pattern.
Thanks you, Keith (Frye). That would make me think the BTM review is accurate.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: jd1319 on May 04, 2008, 12:54:00 PM
Post by: charlest on May 04, 2008, 01:41:44 PM
quote:
I have to admit, that it what's puzzling. We have laid down a variety of shots from light to heavy, and have seen the results stay fairly consistent.
Now that's puzzling!! The implication is that this coverstock is stronger than the BTM review indicates, more in line with the BJI review.
Thanks again.
I hate to spend $150 + $40 drilling JUST to satisfy my curiosity.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: mrbowlingnut on May 04, 2008, 06:41:56 PM
I usually need angle entry help so this will not be coming my unless from someone on here used.
Post by: robospare on May 05, 2008, 08:25:15 AM
The Terminator Rebellion is next to last just above the XS Power in motion off the dry for the medium oil category.
The ball are listed as follows:
SNAP
Big R Bang
Black Pearl Reactive
Buzz
World Class Reactive
Sure Strike
Counter Strike
Terminator Rebellion
XS Power
ARC
Both the TR and XSP roll early and ARC off the dry.
The BRB and WCR go long and SNAP off the dry.
Post by: scotts33 on May 05, 2008, 08:38:44 AM
quote:
I have seen exactly one Lane Masters ball used in my life. Visionary is not far behind.
Personally if it ain't 900 Global/AMF, Brunswick, Columbia, Ebonite, Hammer, Track, Roto/Storm I am not buying it.
Glad to hear that useful info.
Jeff,
I'm wondering at 800 grit how you would use the TR in oiless NJ?
--------------------
Scott
Post by: robospare on May 05, 2008, 08:42:18 AM
Long and very controlled at the break.
Post by: n00dlejester on May 05, 2008, 09:54:42 AM
Post by: jimsey on May 05, 2008, 10:14:12 AM
Had my TR drilled on thurs and used it for second shift league that night. Pin above ring finger, cg in leverage position. Length was longer than I expected and backed was a smooth, strong arc and stronger that anticipated. Length was similar to both my BigRBang and Absolute Power and longer than my Masterpiece, backend was stronger than all three. I have seen another bowler with less speed and a lower rev rate get a completely different reaction. Considerably milder back end and less length.
Tried it on a fresh shot at the IL state tournament this weekend on wood lanes and the backend was way too strong to keep it in play. Length was never an issue. Will have to work with it a little more and get a better feel for it in my summer pba experience league.
Post by: charlest on May 05, 2008, 10:16:25 AM
quote:
Oil-less NJ? Go to Howell Lanes and say that
But they changed their oil for the States for this month. It should be finished soon; then I'll bet you'll complain about not enough oil!
If it weren't an hour and 10 minutes in non-rush hour traffic, I would.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Edited on 5/5/2008 4:45 PM
Post by: charlest on May 05, 2008, 10:18:05 AM
quote:quote:
I have seen exactly one Lane Masters ball used in my life. Visionary is not far behind.
Personally if it ain't 900 Global/AMF, Brunswick, Columbia, Ebonite, Hammer, Track, Roto/Storm I am not buying it.
Glad to hear that useful info.
Jeff,
I'm wondering at 800 grit how you would use the TR in oiless NJ?
--------------------
Scott
I'd do what I always do: change the surface: either polish or 2000 grit matte. The only ball I can use in NJ without changing the surface was the Buzz, and that I did to reduce the skid/flip. It still backends like no body's business.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on May 05, 2008, 10:22:05 AM
quote:
Charlest
Had my TR drilled on thurs and used it for second shift league that night. Pin above ring finger, cg in leverage position. Length was longer than I expected and backed was a smooth, strong arc and stronger that anticipated. Length was similar to both my BigRBang and Absolute Power and longer than my Masterpiece, backend was stronger than all three. I have seen another bowler with less speed and a lower rev rate get a completely different reaction. Considerably milder back end and less length.
Tried it on a fresh shot at the IL state tournament this weekend on wood lanes and the backend was way too strong to keep it in play. Length was never an issue. Will have to work with it a little more and get a better feel for it in my summer pba experience league.
Jim,
Thank you.
I'd like to know more about your release and if the BRB and AP are drilled different from the TR.
The length of the MP and the AP jive with what mine did when I had them. The AP is a control ball for me, but I'm surprised the TR had more backend than the BRB, but maybe there was too much oil for it (TR's 800 grit, vs BRB's high gloss polish?).
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: robospare on May 05, 2008, 10:35:17 AM
Post by: charlest on May 05, 2008, 11:52:01 AM
quote:
http://marketing.lanemasters.com/Catalogs/LM_2007%20ProductCatalog.pdf
robospare,
I know you're spare with words, but to whom are you directing this and what are you trying to say?
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on May 05, 2008, 02:53:58 PM
quote:
If you look at the Lane Masters Box Finish Ball Reaction Comparison
The Terminator Rebellion is next to last just above the XS Power in motion off the dry for the medium oil category.
The ball are listed as follows:
SNAP
Big R Bang
Black Pearl Reactive
Buzz
World Class Reactive
Sure Strike
Counter Strike
Terminator Rebellion
XS Power
ARC
Both the TR and XSP roll early and ARC off the dry.
The BRB and WCR go long and SNAP off the dry.
That 2007 catalog also lists the TR's finish as 800 grit sheen. I believe they have changed that and released the ball with an 800 grit matte/dull finish (Their current web page on the TR says "800 grit matte".).
800 grit sheen is very different from 800 grit matte. In the past I have found their balls, which had an 800 grit sheen finish, to be much earlier and stronger when sanded to 2000 grit matte. Their sheen finish is basically a very high gloss polish followed by a light sanding with a worn grey nylon pad; it's sort of a thorough hazing of the polish. You can still see the shine underneath thru the hazing.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: jimsey on May 05, 2008, 03:24:14 PM
Since you asked, speed is around 17 and rev rate 350ish. PAP is 5.5 over and .5 down.
Drilling on the TR is different than the other equipment. AP and MP are similar, stacked with pin above the right edge of the ring finger and cg on the midline. On the BRB the pin is above and between the fingers, the cg just below and to the right of the ring finger. The TR pin is above the ring finger with the cg to the right of the ring finger and .5 above the midline.
My driller wanted to trying laying this one out using MoRich recommendations on the dual angle approach. Nice strong reaction but I'm not sure it will fit the benchmark ball reaction I had hoped for. May wait it out and acquire another TR from a friend who usually gets bored and replaces equipment every 3 months.
Edited on 5/5/2008 3:27 PM
Post by: charlest on May 05, 2008, 04:49:44 PM
That drilling would make a few balls more flippy and have more backend with your inverted track. (I throw that once in a while myself.)
Now I see why the ball is different from the BRB and the AP.
Re: Mo's dual angle.
I think many drillers tried this without realizing what they are doing. I believe you shoudl take a drill that's worked for you on several balls and reverse engineer it to see what those angles and Pin-PAP distance are. Then try it on your new ball. It sounds like your driller just picked out 2 angles at random.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: n00dlejester on May 05, 2008, 09:06:56 PM
Post by: charlest on May 05, 2008, 09:23:16 PM
quote:
I actually found the state tournament shot identical to my fresh league shot. It'd been pretty oily all season. Good stuff.
Maybe becayse you bowl first shift on Mondays?
I subbed Wednesday 9 PM and it seemed slightly oilier.
But mostly I went by what OJ said, that Neil had changed the shot so that there'd be more oil for the 4 PM squad on Saturdays and Sundays during the States tournament. He did this because there was no re-oiling from 9 AM on, through the whole day. As a result, OJ said he was using the Ultra Zone instead of his high gloss polished No Mercy and he had to play further outside.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on May 06, 2008, 11:22:51 AM
quote:
I don't think the Rebellion is weak at all. In fact, for me, it snaps harder on the backend than the Terminator does. The backend is similar to the Black pearl, but it covers more boards overall.
--------------------
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than bowling."
Scott F. Guinn, USBC Certified Coach
Scott,
How is yours drilled?
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: jimsey on May 06, 2008, 12:24:17 PM
Post by: mrbowlingnut on May 06, 2008, 12:49:56 PM
I have control balls a plenty like my Heist, ogre solid and dulled down Kinetic which becomes great at 1k was erractic at box polished.
quote:
I don't think the Rebellion is weak at all. In fact, for me, it snaps harder on the backend than the Terminator does. The backend is similar to the Black pearl, but it covers more boards overall.
--------------------
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than bowling."
Scott F. Guinn, USBC Certified Coach
Post by: batbowler on May 07, 2008, 12:36:00 AM
I just seen your post and I have one drilled stacked as well, with the pin right and just above my ring finger (1 o'clock). I threw it oob and the ball had a strong arc move at the break point, but it was hard to get down the lane. I have a Buzz drilled with the pin similar and if the TR is too strong then I can play the Buzz. I did apply some Bean's and I believe I like the box finish better, strong arc. A few of the guys made a comment about how hard the ball hit and the unique L/LM sound. I hope this helps, Bruce
Add-on info: The reaction of the TR is hard to describe and it reminds me more of my Big Bang more than the Terminator. The move on the backend is very much like the Big Bang only slightly tamer.
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will not turn from it."
Edited on 5/7/2008 1:21 PM
Post by: charlest on May 07, 2008, 06:14:25 AM
Whoa! Scott, yes, you should have added that. That makes a huge difference. No wonder it flips harder than the Terminator, but I understand why you did it. Thanks.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")