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Author Topic: A BrunsNick response...  (Read 13151 times)

BrunsNick

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A BrunsNick response...
« on: August 01, 2007, 06:33:05 PM »
In light of the recent topics, I have decided to provide a clean slate for a new discussion. The pointless jabbing and having my name called out was expected, and more often than not, comical.

First and foremost, the testing that Paul at USBC has performed is a great step in the right direction. He is a brilliant person to talk with, and an all around good guy. His information is without alterior motivation, never deviating from delivering pure and raw data to the general public. With that being said, the reason Paul, Brunswick, Lane #1 and myself used test balls with a radical variance in CG placement is to show the absolute maximum amount of difference in reaction.

Onward.

With the USBC test, two balls were used with over 2 1/2oz difference in sideweight, thrown by Harry, the robotic wonder. (thrown on a 53' flat pattern 17mph with 375RPMS) This would be considered a "Rev-Dominant" player. Now in this controlled experiment, Harry was able to find about a foot difference in actual breakpoint, with 4 feet of difference between the skid/roll phase. Along with that data, 2 boards of backend hook was found.

So what does this mean to me?

1. Roll does not equal hook.

A ball transitioning from skid to roll does not mean the ball is starting its hook phase. Chitown, you have outlandishly called me out in your thread (now deleted for whatever reason) without regard for the countless times in the past you have messaged me looking for information, layout help, etc. You have absolutely no merit, no first-hand knowledge and only know what you are spoon fed. You were quick to point out how 4 feet was such a gigantic and huge finding, yet, you don't quite understand what you're saying.

2. Two boards is not as much as it sounds over the course of 60 feet.

If you're using Harry set to 17mph/375rpm, who always repeats shots perfectly, using two rough bowling balls with over 2 1/2oz difference in side weight, 53' pattern in a controlled environment test and you only see 2 boards of difference, then how do you apply that to the human game with USBC specification? You can't, you can only theorize. I can give my own opinion on the results of another test, this time using more plausible CG placements in the current game. (i.e. - CG in palm vs CG "kicked" to give 3/4oz pos) USBC will post more findings, taking this into account.

3. Core orientation is not affected.

Notice the post-drilling numbers of the two balls. (nobody has yet to mention this) Not much of any measurable difference even with the radical swing in layouts. Maybe there would be absolutely zero difference if the two fingerholes were drilled to equal depth, but once again, I am just theorizing.

To sum it up, does the CG matter?

Mathematically? Yes, Paul's data shows that.

Realistically? Not by any human. One would be better suited applying this overanalytical attitude to the mechanics and execution in their bowling game. CGNOMADDAH is a theory, and apparently, is one that makes sense to quite a few people. My CGNOMADDAH video has sparked the curiousity of our governing body, and that by itself is exciting! This will not be the end of CG testing, as confirmed by the USBC. I also intend to make an additional video on the subject, with different variables in place. Basically, the best anyone can do is make a decision based on their first hand experiences, and the information presented to them.

Thanks for reading.

--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-07
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!


Edited on 8/2/2007 2:37 AM
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

 

laneman

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2007, 10:54:48 PM »
^^^ Fred Borden would be one that comes to mind.

He averaged 198 in 2002-2003 and knows the game probably more than anyone on this site.A high average doesnt equal high knowledge about the game.

Edited on 8/2/2007 11:02 PM

qstick777

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2007, 11:55:39 PM »
quote:
I wish I could roll the ball accurately and consistently enough for it to make a difference to me.  I love these forums but so often they spin out of control!  I am a hotrodder and you wouldn't believe the way threads get off topic in that forum!

I absolutely love Brunsnick's site and find it funny and informative.  I have tried different ball manufacturers' equipment but always come back to Big B.  That sure doesn't mean that I don't admire and respect the way other guys can throw Storm, Hammer, etc.  I don't see many Lane #1 balls in my leagues here in Metro Detroit so I can't judge them.  What is this fued between Big B and Lane #1 all about anyway?  


Not sure exactly about the feud, but I think it goes something like this:

One side said: Hey, CG doesn't really matter.  Use it for planning a x-hole to fine tune your reaction.  CG layouts shouldn't be used as they were in the past, the degree system is a much better way of laying out equipment.

Another side said:  Hey, CG is very important to laying out your equipment and has a significant affect on ball reaction.  Our balls are better than everybody elses, will make your scores go up, etc.

Then the CGNOMADDAH side said:  Wake up and smell the coffee.  It's no longer the dark ages.  CG doesn't matter at all!  You're a dinosaur if you are still drilling based on CG.  Use the degree layout system!

The other side responded by saying:  Our balls are the best.  Drill your stuff using the CG system, it works.

The CGNOMADDAH side responds:  You guys are cult fanatics.  You must be drinking some funky kool-aid!  Why don't you all gather around, drink some kool-aid and wait for the space ship to pick you up!

Rinse and repeat.
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qstick777

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2007, 12:25:51 AM »
quote:
quote:
I'm curious to see if the balls tested were exactly the same.
I have seen two "identical" balls with very similar drillings provide dramitaclly different reactions.
For example my two Hot Rod Hybrids both pin up with with the Cg kicked
to 45 degrees one 2.5 inch pin other 3 inch. Also very close top weights.
Before I put the x-holes in them the reactions were very differnt.
Due to different x hole placements it is impossible for me to tell if the reactions were the same afterwards.
I'm unbiased in regards to the issue just throwing in some personal experiance.


The thing is that this is not an X-hole experiment.  Nick has videos on X-hole...



Remember that the X-hole video only pertains to Brunswick balls, as Ric pointed out that they manufacture their balls differently than everybody else

Seriously, Ebonite used to tell you to draw a line from grip center through CG and place x-hole on VAL.  Columbia300 used to say the same thing, or 2" past PAP for earlier reaction.  AMF used to recommend 4 1/2" from grip center on the mid-line, or some specified distance beyond midplane (VAL).

I'm a firm believer that you should follow the manufacturer's recommendations - unless you know what you (or your driller) know what you are doing.  The manufacturers make the product and the instructions - they probably know what they are doing!
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RevZiLLa

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2007, 12:33:10 AM »
DISCLAIMER: I am pointing some things out to BrunsNick in this post, but many of those who THINK they speak for Lane#1 need to look within themselves too. when you call names and overstate arguments, you look dishonest or stupid...NO MATTER WHAT SIDE OF THE DEBATE YOU AERE ON.

Quote from: BRUNSNICK
In light of the recent topics, I have decided to provide a clean slate for a new discussion. The pointless jabbing and having my name called out was expected, and more often than not, comical.

A CLEAN SLATE IS A GREAT IDEA. IN ORDER TO CLEAN THE SLATE I, HERE AND NOW, APOLOGIZE TO ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY I MAY HAVE OFFENDED IN THE COURSE OF THIS DISCUSSION.

WILL YOU DO THE SAME, NICK? YOU LAUGHED AT PEOPLE AND ACCUSED THEM OF DRINKING KOOL AID. YOU YELLED, "ZOLTAN!".  YOU MADE A BUBBLE WRAP SUIT AND SAID PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T AGREE WITH YOU NEEDED TO WEAR ONE...ZOLTAN!

EFFECTIVE AND MATURE DEBATE IS NOT BUILT UPON RIDICULE...PEOPLE RESPOND IN KIND...MINDS CLOSE.

I AM SO PROUD TO SEE YOU TAKING A DIFFERENT TACK NOW.

I DO NOT INTEND THIS AS AN ATTACK, SO I APOLOGIZE A 2ND TIME FOR POINTING THIS OUT.


First and foremost, the testing that Paul at USBC has performed is a great step in the right direction. He is a brilliant person to talk with, and an all around good guy. His information is without alterer motivation, never deviating from delivering pure and raw data to the general public. With that being said, the reason Paul, Brunswick, Lane #1 and myself used test balls with a radical variance in CG placement is to show the absolute maximum amount of difference in reaction.

Onward.

With the USBC test, two balls were used with over 2 1/2oz difference in sideweight, thrown by Harry, the robotic wonder. (thrown on a 53' flat pattern 17mph with 375RPMS) This would be considered a "Rev-Dominant" player. Now in this controlled experiment, Harry was able to find about a foot difference in actual breakpoint, with 4 feet of difference between the skid/roll phase. Along with that data, 2 boards of backend hook was found.


AN ACCURATE SUMMARY. LET'S REMEMBER THE ABOVE NUMBERS.


So what does this mean to me?

1. Roll does not equal hook.

A ball transitioning from skid to roll does not mean the ball is starting its hook phase. Chitown, you have outlandishly called me out in your thread (now deleted for whatever reason) without regard for the countless times in the past you have messaged me looking for information, layout help, etc. You have absolutely no merit, no first-hand knowledge and only know what you are spoon fed. You were quick to point out how 4 feet was such a gigantic and huge finding, yet, you don't quite understand what you're saying.

ROLL DOES NOT EQUAL HOOK...OK....ROLL EQUALS ROLL. THE BALL GETS INTO A ROLL 4 FEET SOONER. THAT CAN BE A USEFUL TOOL! THAT CAN AFFECT CARRY. SAYING ROLL DOES NOT EQUAL HOOK DOES NOT MAKE A 4 FOOT EARLIER ROLL IRRELEVANT.

WHETHER CHITOWN HAS EVER ASKED YOU FOR ADVICE IS IRRELEVANT. SAYING WHAT IS HIGHLIGHTED IN RED ABOVE IS INFLAMMATORY AND COUNTERPRODUCTIVE TO MATURE DEBATE.



2. Two boards is not as much as it sounds over the course of 60 feet.

TWO BOARDS OUT OF 39 ON THE LANE IS NOT INSIGNIFICANT. ON PATTERNS OF DIFFERENT VOLUME OR LENGTH IT COULD BE MORE OR LESS. ON A WALL SHOT IT COULD BE MORE OR LESS.

LET'S NOT FORGET THAT 4 FEET WHILE WE DISCUSS THIS...


If you're using Harry set to 17mph/375rpm, who always repeats shots perfectly, using two rough bowling balls with over 2 1/2oz difference in side weight, 53' pattern in a controlled environment test and you only see 2 boards of difference, then how do you apply that to the human game with USBC specification? You can't, you can only theorize. I can give my own opinion on the results of another test, this time using more plausible CG placements in the current game. (i.e. - CG in palm vs CG "kicked" to give 3/4oz pos) USBC will post more findings, taking this into account.

YES, USBC WILL DO MORE TESTING, AND WHAT WONDERFUL FUN WE WILL HAVE DISCUSSING IT!


3. Core orientation is not affected.

THE CORRECT STATEMENT WOULD BE "CORE ORIENATION IS NOT AFFECTED MUCH". IN BRUNSWICK'S VIDEO THE CORE IS SWUNG IN A "TRANSPARANT" BALL AND YOU CAN SEE THAT IT MOVES A LITTLE. NOT MUCH...BUT MORE THAN NOT AT ALL.

WATCH THE BRUNSWICK VIDEO AND YOU WILL SEE THEY DO NOT TALK N ABSOLUTES. BRUNSWICK NEVER SAID STATICS AND CG'S MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE. THEY SAID THEY MAKE A SMALL DIFFERENCE...MAYBE 5%...

THAT WAS HONEST

BRUNSWICK NEVER SAID THAT CORE ORIENTATION IS TOTALLY UNCHANGED BY SWINGING CG. THEY SAID THERE IS ONLY A SMALL DIFFERENCE...AND THEY SHOWED IT IN THEIR VID.

THAT WAS HONEST

THOSE WHO THINK THEY SPEAK FOR BRUNSWICK AND OVERSATATE THE ARGUMENT AND USE ABSOLUTES MAKE BRUNSWICK LOOK BAD.


Notice the post-drilling numbers of the two balls. (nobody has yet to mention this) Not much of any measurable difference even with the radical swing in layouts. Maybe there would be absolutely zero difference if the two fingerholes were drilled to equal depth, but once again, I am just theorizing.

To sum it up, does the CG matter?

Mathematically? Yes, Paul's data shows that.

Realistically? Not by any human. One would be better suited applying this overanalytical attitude to the mechanics and execution in their bowling game. CGNOMADDAH is a theory, and apparently, is one that makes sense to quite a few people.

WAS ZOLTAN! A THEORY?


My CGNOMADDAH video has sparked the curiousity of our governing body, and that by itself is exciting! This will not be the end of CG testing, as confirmed by the USBC. I also intend to make an additional video on the subject, with different variables in place. Basically, the best anyone can do is make a decision based on their first hand experiences, and the information presented to them.

Thanks for reading.

AND THANK YOU FOR READING TOO, NICK. LET'S CONTINUE TO DISCUSS WITH OPEN MINDS IN A MATURE MANNER. IF SOMEONE STEPS IN AND CALLS NAMES, PLEASE RISE ABOVE IT AND CONTINUE TO DISCUSS THE REAL ISSUE WITH INTELLIGENCE AND CALM. IF YOU FALL INTO THE NAME CALLING, YOU DECREASE YOUR OWN CREDIBILITY.


--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-07
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!


Edited on 8/2/2007 2:37 AM

--------------------
RevZ=======================  
\I/

Edited on 8/3/2007 0:37 AM

BrunsNick

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2007, 12:36:14 AM »
Revz, wait for my new CG video and then you can edit your reply.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-07
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

RevZiLLa

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2007, 12:43:48 AM »
I will enjoy your video. If something I said is wrong, I will not edit. It will stay wrong for all to see and for me to learn from.


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RevZ=======================  
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leftehh- LG

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2007, 12:56:23 AM »
lol nick im wearing ur fury shirt that i won while i am reading this.

Nick, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

Bowl to win!
--------------------
Bowl to Win!
Reynoso


Edited on 8/3/2007 0:57 AM

Edited on 8/3/2007 0:58 AM

JessN16

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2007, 01:22:13 AM »
quote:
lol nick im wearing ur fury shirt that i won while i am reading this.

Nick, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

Bowl to win!
--------------------
Bowl to Win!
Reynoso


Edited on 8/3/2007 0:57 AM

Edited on 8/3/2007 0:58 AM


Not to belabor this point, but if the USBC has scientifically verifiable data, there's no "leading to water/making them drink" to this. Data is data.

This isn't religion; whether CG "maddahs" or not isn't up for interpretation via belief. It is either proven or disproven by science, and once we have a verdict, then we can go about the exercise of finding out to what extend it affects the pro bowler, the house bowler, the recreational bowler, etc.

As it stands now, the USBC tests have shown some level of difference exists. If backed up by a second test, CG "maddahs" no "maddah" what. The only thing left to discern will be to the degree it "maddahs."

Jess

BrunsNick

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2007, 02:04:13 AM »
I'll just be sure to eliminate all human error from my video.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-07
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

leftehh- LG

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2007, 02:20:49 AM »
quote:
quote:
lol nick im wearing ur fury shirt that i won while i am reading this.

Nick, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

Bowl to win!
--------------------
Bowl to Win!
Reynoso


Edited on 8/3/2007 0:57 AM

Edited on 8/3/2007 0:58 AM


Not to belabor this point, but if the USBC has scientifically verifiable data, there's no "leading to water/making them drink" to this. Data is data.

This isn't religion; whether CG "maddahs" or not isn't up for interpretation via belief. It is either proven or disproven by science, and once we have a verdict, then we can go about the exercise of finding out to what extend it affects the pro bowler, the house bowler, the recreational bowler, etc.

As it stands now, the USBC tests have shown some level of difference exists. If backed up by a second test, CG "maddahs" no "maddah" what. The only thing left to discern will be to the degree it "maddahs."

Jess



but its true...
--------------------
Bowl to Win!
Reynoso

ElectricLeftSlider

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2007, 03:59:42 AM »
As a quote from Rodney King, "Can We All Just Get Along"????

dpunky

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2007, 08:19:34 AM »
Nick,

Just have Krista in a CGNOMADDAH video and all will be good

To me, CG placement is just one element of bowling dynamics.  You need to consider ball surface preparation, ball speed, ball trajectory, lane surface, lane conditions, environmental conditions,etc.

I go to league to hopefully win games and get strikes, not worry about CG placement.
--------------------
Ken - aka "dpunky"

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dogman666

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2007, 08:54:43 AM »
Come on out to VA ericob and this 48 year old man will show you just how good a 197 average is.  As Chitown said some houses do not score as well as others and with money on the line I tend to make others succomb to this old man can't beat me syndrome!

dogman666

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2007, 09:16:32 AM »
I hardly think that was angry.  It was actually tongue in cheek.  Just don't think average has to do with knowledge.  Some people are just plain inept but they are consistent with their ineptness.  By the way you should put your 230 average on your profile.

laneman

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Re: A BrunsNick response...
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2007, 09:50:16 AM »
quote:
Fred Borden is a coach not a R&D person.
Someone please show me anywhere on the web where Fred Borden has a vast knowledge of bowling ball physics and design and I will apologize.  Until then, I stand by my statement.

quote:
^^^ Fred Borden would be one that comes to mind.

He averaged 198 in 2002-2003 and knows the game probably more than anyone on this site.A high average doesnt equal high knowledge about the game.

Edited on 8/2/2007 11:02 PM



He works with lanemasters designing balls with Sam Bacca.