win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan  (Read 15137 times)

blesseddad

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« on: August 25, 2013, 04:08:59 PM »
Check this out and see if you agree...


http://mikefagan.tumblr.com/post/28350535363/how-to-fix-bowling#notes

I love it and love to get another idea toward making bowling better, not just allowing the status quo to continue...

 

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2013, 03:46:44 PM »
Handicap works just fine . . in a reasonable scoring environment.  You put 150 average bowlers on a PBA shot, and they will still average 150 because they're not good or consistent enough to really notice what's going on.  But if the difference is from 150-200 instead of 150-230, that makes handicap a lot more reasonable.  Is it a perfect solution?  No, but in my mind it's not the biggest problem out there. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

stormed1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1755
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2013, 06:07:24 PM »
When I lived in Rockford 90% of the mens leagues were scratch. Some were open with no limit. Most were 925-975 team limit for 5 player teams With todays scoring environment it would be 975-1025 / 5 man team. Many times we did what Mike described in the article and brought in a 150ish average bowler to meet the cap. Worked with him to improve and as a result were very competitive People were happy with the system as it worked well. Teams were given a 10 pin grace at the end of the year which allowed the same 5 to bowl together the following year ( in case someone got "hot" at the end of the year) but had to be at or under the cap at the end of the next year to continue together the following year
Current arsenal


Break Down 60x4.5x60 @3k+polish
coming soon X,Desert Ops,Special Ops, Shadow Ops., Truth Pearl ,Drift

billdozer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4613
  • Goin' Global!
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 08:11:50 PM »
Meh, handicap is not the issue on THS..

I thought it was more like were all just not into the sport like we used to be as a culture...his buddy billy oneil thinks the shots are too easy ...'save bowling' anyone remember?
In the bag [Infinite Physix, Volatility Torque, Night Road, Phaze III, Burner Solid, Hustle AU]
*Now Testing* IQ Ruby, Renevant, another IQ Tour solid
Coming soon...???

blesseddad

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 08:32:51 PM »
Meh, handicap is not the issue on THS..

I thought it was more like were all just not into the sport like we used to be as a culture...his buddy billy oneil thinks the shots are too easy ...'save bowling' anyone remember?

The sport being too easy is an entirely different argument...

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 09:18:37 PM »
Meh, handicap is not the issue on THS..

I thought it was more like were all just not into the sport like we used to be as a culture...his buddy billy oneil thinks the shots are too easy ...'save bowling' anyone remember?

The sport being too easy is an entirely different argument...

It is, but given that handicap would work better in a lower scoring environment factors into the conversation.  Handicap in the current environment is a nightmare, yes, but treating symptoms instead of the cause isn't going to fix the problem. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

trash heap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2013, 10:01:42 AM »
Fagan is off the mark here.  Handicap has been around a long time and others stated, part of the game in its glory days.
Talkin' Trash!

billdozer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4613
  • Goin' Global!
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2013, 03:44:02 PM »
I feel bad for him lol.  He spent some time writing that blog.  He hasnt bowled a league in 'x' amount of years, yet he knows what is wrong with regular amateur leagues.  Its just as bad as us mortals griping about whats wrong with the pba.  I think he should spend sometime working on whats wrong with the pba, while we figure out how to get more people involved in our sport.  Oh and btw, bowling isnt my job either it is his...id figure out how to gain $ for the pba.  Do things like chris paul does, cross promote,  etc...OR....maybe he should organize a draft league and blog about its success...it would put his thoughts in motion atleast. 
In the bag [Infinite Physix, Volatility Torque, Night Road, Phaze III, Burner Solid, Hustle AU]
*Now Testing* IQ Ruby, Renevant, another IQ Tour solid
Coming soon...???

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 11:53:02 AM »
Fagan acknowledges that there are many factors that are contributing to the decline of bowling. He's not putting it all on handicap, but I do believe he has a point.


Plain and simple, handicap is a competiton killer. In many cases it's subtle, but in general, it puts more emphasis on manipulating the system than putting the time and energy into getting better. It's hard to take any sport seriously where base scores can have little meaning.


The problem with "scratch" is that the vast majority of bowlers don't have a clue about the permutations it can take. They hear the word "scratch", and they immediately think it means the best bowlers in the house get together, steal the prize money, and run away with the league.


Capped scratch and Draft leagues bring relative equity to teams, and provide a much more satisfying experience than handicap. My experience has been that most bowlers who make the transition to scratch don't go back to handicap if they have a choice. Generally, they're more likely to work on their respective games, make the effort to participate in outside tournaments, and maybe even give PBA Regionals a try.


I don't know why anyone wouldn't consider this all a good thing.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:54:35 AM by Steven »

trash heap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 12:22:58 PM »
Capped Scratch Leagues is not the answer. Those leagues have problems too. He states that high average bowlers sandbag in handicap leagues, well I can guarantee the same happens in capped leagues. And there is just as much complaining and whining in capped leagues as there is in handicap. Usually because there is more money on the line in these types of leagues.
Talkin' Trash!

NHLfan88

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 340
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 12:36:47 PM »
sandbagging is even worse in scratch leagues.  There was a 60 team 3-man scratch team in this area 10 years ago.  Teams would take an entire year off, bowl in a different league and dog it so they could fit.  They did this every other year.

Fast Forward 10 years, there is now 7 teams in that league.
Those who can't bowl, bowl with two hands.

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2778
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2013, 01:53:22 PM »
I am surprised that there is not one mention of golf in this entire thread.  Except in pro tournaments you never see a scratch golf event.  Both sports have one thing in common.  Competitors are not created equal, and without handicap there would be no competitive game for anyone.  Lots of sandbagging and problems with both, but the answer isn't throwing out the handicap system. 

Also, the best teams still win most of the league titles even with 100% handicap. 

Sleeve857

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 01:59:37 PM »
I agree with avabob as well. Golf and Bowling are the 2 closet sports to each other and both have the same issues with Handicap. This is just one subject that is just about impossible to control who is sandbaggin or not. This is also the results of why we see less and less local tournaments being held. Most of them are Handicap Tournaments. Which the result of the winner is normally a person with some decent amount of handicap and there is no way of telling if the person sandbagged to get it or not. When it happens year to year sure you can tell he is a sandbagger. I see a lot of options and solutions being presented but even still don't have the best answer to fix the problem. Where does Bowling go from here?!?

blesseddad

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2013, 03:12:21 PM »
sandbagging is even worse in scratch leagues.  There was a 60 team 3-man scratch team in this area 10 years ago.  Teams would take an entire year off, bowl in a different league and dog it so they could fit.  They did this every other year.

Fast Forward 10 years, there is now 7 teams in that league.

Sounds like the cap was too low....or the shot was too easy. Either way, things could have been fixed a long time ago. Something done for the sake of competition, like the progressive league idea or a draft type situation like mike was talking about.


trash heap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2013, 03:47:44 PM »
Also, the best teams still win most of the league titles even with 100% handicap. 

Yet, most bowlers do not believe this statement.
Talkin' Trash!

swingset

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Captain of the Short Bus
Re: A take on Handicap by Mike Fagan
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2013, 04:42:00 PM »
I am surprised that there is not one mention of golf in this entire thread.  Except in pro tournaments you never see a scratch golf event.  Both sports have one thing in common.  Competitors are not created equal, and without handicap there would be no competitive game for anyone.  Lots of sandbagging and problems with both, but the answer isn't throwing out the handicap system. 

Also, the best teams still win most of the league titles even with 100% handicap.

Golf is one of the few sports using handicap, and for the same traditional reasons (league and tourney play enticements for prizes/money, to get lesser players to show up when at an obvious disadvantage).

I've played competitive sports my entire life, those are the only two to give points when you haven't earned them, or punish you if you do "too well". I think handicaps are shameful, in terms of the sport being a "sport". It's a tradition, but it doesn't mean it's good for the integrity of the game.

But, people like it because they get to compete when they're not earning it. I get it.

BTW, define "best" in terms of "best teams will still win". If by best you mean the most consistent? Or, the best by starts low ends high? Ok. But, that doesn't mean the winning team on a high-handicap league are the best bowlers. I've won several handicap leagues and our team is far from the best.
The only sports worth playing serve alcohol during gameplay.