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Author Topic: Question?  (Read 5285 times)

Pink Floyd

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Question?
« on: January 05, 2015, 05:15:14 PM »
Might be a stupid question but is there a consistent rule in how to allow tardy bowlers catch up?

I'm far from being anal about it, but it is a pet peeve of mine when a couple guys show up late most weeks.  And no real consistency.  They're just always allowed to catch up in different willy nilly formats.
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Strider

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Re: Question?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2015, 05:22:14 PM »
In general they are given until the 3rd frame is complete to make up and join the current game.  Your league can adopt whatever rule you vote on.  How to deal with people who are always late without good reason is an entirely different subject.  If someone who is normally on time calls and says they are going to be a little late I will make an extra allowance if everyone else is OK with it.  If they are habitually late they won't get an extra second from me.

Pink Floyd

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Re: Question?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2015, 05:27:04 PM »
In general they are given until the 3rd frame is complete to make up and join the current game.  Your league can adopt whatever rule you vote on.  How to deal with people who are always late without good reason is an entirely different subject.  If someone who is normally on time calls and says they are going to be a little late I will make an extra allowance if everyone else is OK with it.  If they are habitually late they won't get an extra second from me.

Your last sentence hits my pet peeve.  Habitual.

But I have no juice with our league.  Seems nobody else cares or at least nobody has voiced it.
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trash heap

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Re: Question?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2015, 07:12:09 PM »
I was reading the USBC rules on Lineup and I am a bit confused:

Quote
Rule 109 – Lineup

109a. Legal Lineup - A minimum legal lineup must be present to complete the first frame of any game of a series unless the league rules state another frame. A frame shall be considered completed when all bowlers present on each team have made his/her last deliveries in that frame. The following also shall apply:

1. A legal lineup is:
-- a. Three or more eligible players in five-player team leagues, unless league rules state one or more.
-- b. Two or more eligible players in either three- or four-player team leagues, unless league rules state one or more.
-- c. One eligible player in two-player team leagues.

2. Substitutes count to determine a legal lineup, unless otherwise provided by league rule.

3. Leagues may include in its rules the number of players from a team’s roster who must be present to count toward a legal lineup.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 109a.

109a/1 If a league does not adopt a rule designating the number of regular members for a legal lineup, is it acceptable to have just one regular member plus substitutes? Substitutes are considered eligible players for a minimum legal lineup unless the league adopts a rule requiring a specific number of regular members to be present. If such a rule is not adopted, any number of substitutes could count toward a legal lineup.

109a/2 Can a league adopt a rule stating a legal lineup must be present at the start of a game or at a designated time? A team has until the completion of the first frame, or a select frame other than the first, to field a legal lineup. Therefore, it is not permissible to require a team to have a legal lineup present at the start of a game or at a designated time.

109a/3 When a league allows for individual pre-bowls, do the scores count toward the legal lineup requirement? Yes, the scores count toward the legal lineup requirement unless the league rules require a legal lineup present at the regular league session.

109a/4 Can a vacancy or an absentee score count toward the legal lineup? No. If a team does not have the minimum legal lineup present by the end of the specified frame, the vacancy and absentee scores cannot be used. (See Rule 105a. -  Absentee or vacancy scores may be used only when a legal lineup is present.)

109b. Lack of Legal Lineup - When one or both teams scheduled against each other fail to present a minimum legal lineup and a postponement was not requested, the game(s) is (are) forfeited unless an emergency existed. The postponement committee or board of directors shall decide whether an emergency existed and, if so, the match shall be rescheduled under the postponement rules. Decisions made by the postponement committee can be appealed to the league board of directors.

109c. Tardy Players - Unless otherwise provided by league rule, a player who arrives late may be permitted to bowl after a game has started under these conditions:

1. The player shall begin play, with the score to count, beginning with the frame then being bowled by the team.

2. The player shall receive one-tenth of the absentee score for each frame not bowled.

3. Partial games shall not be used in determining a bowler’s average, unless league rules require the secretary to maintain averages based on the actual frames bowled by each player.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 109c.
109c/1 If a legal lineup is not present by the end of the first frame but a tardy player arrives before the designated tardy player frame, can the late bowler make up missed frames to avoid a team forfeit? No, a league rule setting a specific frame for tardy players is separate from the legal lineup rule. First, a team must have enough eligible players present for a legal lineup. Tardy players could enter the game if they arrived before completion of the designated tardy frame, but the game would still be forfeited. However, games two and three would not be forfeited since the team would have a legal lineup present.


Commonly Asked Questions 109a/2 seems to contradict 109c/1. Is that right? Or am I missing something.


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Aloarjr810

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Re: Question?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2015, 07:30:25 PM »
I was reading the USBC rules on Lineup and I am a bit confused:

Quote
Rule 109 – Lineup

109a/2 Can a league adopt a rule stating a legal lineup must be present at the start of a game or at a designated time? A team has until the completion of the first frame, or a select frame other than the first, to field a legal lineup. Therefore, it is not permissible to require a team to have a legal lineup present at the start of a game or at a designated time.


Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 109c.
109c/1 If a legal lineup is not present by the end of the first frame but a tardy player arrives before the designated tardy player frame, can the late bowler make up missed frames to avoid a team forfeit? No, a league rule setting a specific frame for tardy players is separate from the legal lineup rule. First, a team must have enough eligible players present for a legal lineup. Tardy players could enter the game if they arrived before completion of the designated tardy frame, but the game would still be forfeited. However, games two and three would not be forfeited since the team would have a legal lineup present.


Commonly Asked Questions 109a/2 seems to contradict 109c/1. Is that right? Or am I missing something.

They don't contradict.

The team has until the end of the first frame of a game to field a legal line up for that game. if they don't then that game is forfeit.

So If the tardy bowler shows up before the end of the first frame of a game, then the team doesn't forfeit that game.

If the tardy bowler shows up after the end of the first frame of a game, then the team still forfeits that game.

But he can still bowl as long as he got there before the end of the designated tardy frame (Usually the third frame).
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 07:37:37 PM by Aloarjr810 »
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Pink Floyd

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Re: Question?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2015, 07:39:40 PM »
Guess my league needs to start following the rules.  Some rules.

We've had instances where one guy shows up halfway though the first game, and others seem ok with just letting him catch up all at once.

And usually it involves more waste of time while they're screwing around with the electronic scoring.
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Question?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2015, 07:50:06 PM »
Guess my league needs to start following the rules.  Some rules.

We've had instances where one guy shows up halfway though the first game, and others seem ok with just letting him catch up all at once.

And usually it involves more waste of time while they're screwing around with the electronic scoring.

They shouldn't have to screw around with the electronic scoring. There's no need for them to manually switch to the tardy bowler and put them up.

Most systems will automatically switch to the tardy bowlers name and catch them up without slowing the bowling pace down much once the blind is removed.
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Pink Floyd

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Re: Question?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2015, 07:53:08 PM »
Guess my league needs to start following the rules.  Some rules.

We've had instances where one guy shows up halfway though the first game, and others seem ok with just letting him catch up all at once.

And usually it involves more waste of time while they're screwing around with the electronic scoring.


They shouldn't have to screw around with the electronic scoring. There's no need for them to manually switch to the tardy bowler and put them up.

Most systems will automatically switch to the tardy bowlers name and catch them up without slowing the bowling pace down much once the blind is removed.

I think you need to come visit our league.  We are evidently living in the dark ages or are just an extremely relaxed bunch.

Maybe time to find another league.
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Geetaan

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Re: Question?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2015, 12:46:14 AM »
Our league has it where the bowler has until the 3rd frame to bowl. If they are not there by then they have to wait till the next game. But then you have to deal with a few teams that will intentionally dick around or bowl slow so that they give their teammate time to get there.

charlest

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Re: Question?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2015, 06:17:57 AM »
Might be a stupid question but is there a consistent rule in how to allow tardy bowlers catch up?

I'm far from being anal about it, but it is a pet peeve of mine when a couple guys show up late most weeks.  And no real consistency.  They're just always allowed to catch up in different willy nilly formats.

In one of my leagues, the league by-laws state that the tardy bowler has until the opposing team has finished their 5th frame. The tardy bowler doesn't have to be ready to bowl; he only has to be in the building. I think that is extreme, but since we're in a very congested area, traffic-wise, it is far too easy for someone to have allowed plenty of time leaving work (we start at 7:00 PM) to get to the alleys and still be late due to circumstances out of his control.

Like someone else has already stated, in both houses I bowl, we enter the missing bowler as a blind or absent. When he arrives and is ready to bowl, we change him to present. The automatic scorer puts him in rotation and usually allows him to catch up before the whole team has bowled its frame. No one has to touch the scoreboard after he is present.
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Pink Floyd

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Re: Question?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2015, 11:22:18 AM »
Our league has it where the bowler has until the 3rd frame to bowl. If they are not there by then they have to wait till the next game. But then you have to deal with a few teams that will intentionally dick around or bowl slow so that they give their teammate time to get there.

That's what I see happening (the intentional stalling) that bugs me too.  And nobody else seems to care.  But I have yet to see any rule enforced, 3rd or 5th.  It's like whenever these two guys show up, they're allowed to catch up.
"Everything I give to others is a gift to myself".

xrayjay

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Re: Question?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2015, 11:28:34 AM »
I wish I had that teammate that was late.. it's much better than a bowler who bowls 2 twice a month, doesn't show up every week.
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dR3w

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Re: Question?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2015, 12:10:42 PM »
Just a small note, but all the references mentioned above are for leagues that have specific rules about Tardy Bowlers.  The official USBC rules do not allow bowlers to catch up frames.  They instead get 1/10th of the league absentee score per frame up to the frame they are about to bowl, and they can start bowling even into the 10th frame. 

Making up frames is for leagues that have specific rules that override the USBC Tardy bowler rules.

109c. Tardy Players
Unless otherwise provided by league rule, a player who arrives late may be permitted to bowl after a game has started under these conditions:
1. The player shall begin play, with the score to count, beginning with the frame then being bowled by the team.
2. The player shall receive one-tenth of the absentee score for each frame not bowled.
3. Partial games shall not be used in determining a bowler’s average, unless league rules require the
secretary to maintain averages based on the actual frames bowled by each player.
45 USBC

Commonly Asked Question – Rule 109c.
109c/1 If a legal lineup is not present by the end of the first frame but a tardy player arrives before the designated tardy player frame, can the late bowler make up missed frames to avoid a team forfeit?
No, a league rule setting a specific frame for tardy players is separate from the legal lineup rule. First, a team must have enough eligible players present for a legal lineup. Tardy players could enter the game if they arrived before completion of the designated tardy frame, but the game would still be forfeited. However, games two and three would not be forfeited since the team would have a legal lineup present.

Geetaan

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Re: Question?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2015, 01:32:57 PM »
Our league has it where the bowler has until the 3rd frame to bowl. If they are not there by then they have to wait till the next game. But then you have to deal with a few teams that will intentionally dick around or bowl slow so that they give their teammate time to get there.

That's what I see happening (the intentional stalling) that bugs me too.  And nobody else seems to care.  But I have yet to see any rule enforced, 3rd or 5th.  It's like whenever these two guys show up, they're allowed to catch up.

If its once in a while ill let the stalling go... but if its every week then thats when I will say no were not waiting lets go. if they refuse then you need to talk to your president to enforce something.