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Author Topic: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?  (Read 10348 times)

txbowler

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Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« on: January 08, 2010, 02:13:12 AM »
Why is it that most of the posts I read "seem" to come across as a bowler who only cares about himself/herself or their class of bowler?

Bowlers want tougher conditions.  Don''t care that it could drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Bowlers want to do away with HDCP (or reduce it).  Don''t care that it would drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Why does the 10% of bowlers who average above 200 feel they deserve to rule bowling while the 90% who don''t actually bring in 8 times more money to the centers and USBC that make the rules?

Are we all that arrogant?

Does it really bruise your ego that much when Joe "beer drinking", Non-practicing" Nobody beats you with his HDCP and easy lanes conditions in your weekly league, bracket or tournament?

Are we all a bunch of babies?


Edited on 1/8/2010 11:14 AM

 

renaissanceman517kak

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2010, 04:59:09 PM »
That's a shame, Juggernaut. I've bowled in both scratch and handicaps, and I enjoy the challenges inherent in both. I just enjoy bowling, and I take it seriously, but I don't act like it's my livelihood, so whether it's scratch or handicap, THS, sport shot, or Pbax, I'm going to go out there and and give it my best shot...it's really not THAT serious...

Juggernaut

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2010, 05:22:08 PM »
quote:
That's a shame, Juggernaut. I've bowled in both scratch and handicaps, and I enjoy the challenges inherent in both. I just enjoy bowling, and I take it seriously, but I don't act like it's my livelihood, so whether it's scratch or handicap, THS, sport shot, or Pbax, I'm going to go out there and and give it my best shot...it's really not THAT serious...


 Oh, I know Ren, and that's where I've finally gotten to myself. I just go out there and throw it as good as I can and let the chips fall where they may.

 I used to take it VERY seriously. Even to the point I was going to quit my job and turn pro once upon a time, but my sponsor fell through on me. I was pretty good, but lifes priorities soon showed me that bowling was meant to be recreational for me, so now I go out and just enjoy being able to compete.

 I would like to compete in a totally scratch league just once. I'm not the bowler I once was, nor is the sport what it once was, but it would still be fun AND challenging. I THINK I could give some of these whippersnappers a run for their money.
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Atochabsh

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2010, 06:16:36 PM »
quote:
It's all about money.

The house will not run a small league for the few that want a tough shot.


I don't think you guys understand the INpractability of having a small league and a sanctioned sport shot.  Its not a simple thing.  Its a matter of programming the oiling machine and the lane man hitting it when changing from shot to shot.  You have to probably have your top mechanic on that day to insure that.  If you do then that part is no big deal.  

But you have to get bowlers to pay the $15 extra.  OK, so most of you say you are happy to do that.  

The center has to have the equipment to take a tape reading every week.  That's about a $600 piece of equipment.  Then they have to have the reader to read the tape you just took, that's about a $2200 piece of equipment.  You need calibration strips for the reader every 4 months, that's $24/set.  You have to have someone that knows how to run all this equipment and access to a computer and printer.  And they have to be on hand each week prior to your sport/PBA league flooring.  All that has to be done, the tapes looked at and if they are NOT compliant, the machine adjusted to be compliant and the whole league lanes run again.  The center has to allow enough non bowling time on those lanes for all this to happen.  If you do not do this and an honor award or any special achievement award is bowled, it will not be awarded.  If awards in a sport/pba league are not awarded you are certainly going to alienate those that paid the extra $15/yr to participate.  Now lets says you've done all this......all this time, the league lanes have to be NOT BOWLED ON.  That means a loss of revenue to the house in open play, while the sport/pba pattern is put down and OK'd.  

If you do not have a lot of bowlers bowling in the sport/pba league then its really a big pain in the "you know what".  

It is a big logistical problem in a busy center.  If you have a center that normally has free open lanes in the afternoon, then it is easier.  Our center has $1 games in the afternoons after a full house of senior leagues at noon.  Its not uncommon for a waiting list for open play after 3pm to 6pm.  If you have a center like mine, then what its really going to take is a manager that LOVES the game as much as his bowlers do.  How many centers have that?  

Erin




9andaWiggle

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2010, 05:02:04 PM »
In response to those who think everyone looking for a tougher condition should only bowl scratch tourneys and regionals... Why should bowlers who wish to do these things be forced to spend large amounts of money to go into an environment completely unprepared?  I've bowled in and enjoyed a couple of sport leagues when they had enough people to support them. And that's most of my gripe  I would like to try a regional some day, but I'm not going to go in there and drop that kind of cash to embarass myself because I've no place to practice and hone my skills before making that investment. Sure, I may be good on a house shot, but I'm smart enough to know that going to a regional and dumping the cash to bowl in that scenario would not be a wise investment (I saw the results Rev-O posted when he tried his first regional, and he's much better on the house shot that I am). Understand, I don't have to think I'm good enough to win, I just want to be able to go in and feel confident that I have some idea of what to expect and how to adjust to what will happen on the lane and not make a total fool of myself.  

Look, I'm not trying to ruin the pizza and beer leagues.  They are fun and fine for the recreational bowler.  But why is there no support, or hardly any support, for those who aspire to take their games to higher levels - whatever their dream may be?  I know, money.  But the money would be there if there were more bowlers who aspired to improve their game (HELLO, calling all bowlers who avg over 190 on the house shot?).  What upsets me most is that I see bowling now as not much more than adult skee-ball for most bowlers, and that does not bode well IMO for the future of competitive bowling, not to mention professional bowling - which I am not good enough to ever be a part of, but as a bowler I don't want to see that level die.

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Atochabsh

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2010, 05:40:33 AM »
If you don't want to pay for Sport membership but want to bowl on that type of condition then find a sport league and open play after the league.  

Organize handicap or handicap/9 pin no tap tournaments on sport or pba shots and see if you get any turn out.  If people don't have to commit to weeks of bowling and extra fees, they might try it.

Travel around.  Join a travel league.  I know it will probably be on house shots, but no house shot is exactly the same.  And depending on the time and day you might have quite challenging conditions.  And even though you won't get the perscribed PBA condition, its not the same from house to house anyway.

Erin

EagleHunter

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2010, 08:00:38 AM »
Erin,
Your response (as well as many others) doesn't deal with the issue that 9~ was attempting to address.  Simply put, how do you save the SPORT?

Today's game is bordering very closely to recreation, and with the continuing decline in USBC certification it may soon be ONLY a recreation (see my previous post for the difference between SPORT/RECREATION).  

This issue is not about trying to hurt the bowlers.  While some people cannot understand this, the SPORT is bigger than THEM...it is bigger than ALL of us.  Trying to save the SPORT is what matters.

If making things stupid easy will save the sport, then have at it.  If toughening things up will save the sport, then do it.  Keeping things the same has been proven to make things continue to get worse...and soon the SPORT may disappear.  Rumors are already out there that the PBA may go under soon.  When that happens, is bowling officially not a sport?

What will it take for people to see that the status quo is not acceptable?  Once this is recognized, what steps will be taken to fix the damage caused by DECADES  of poor decisions?

toomanytenpins

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2010, 09:20:16 AM »
this is curious to me. I am a 180ish avg bowler. I have the same access to balls and bowling lanes for practice. There are all types of classes and coaches and seminars to attend,along with the wealth of knowledge on video and in books that can be tapped to improve my game. I have all this at my disposal,so why am i not a 200 bowler.
    I think its because, as in all things, there are some things that some people are just better at than others. Better motor skills ,better at applying the knowledge they have learned with their physical abilities and those that aren't as good will tend to stay in their comfort zone.
   It is a long standing argument that those 220 and above housecats should be coupled in battle of the best scratch leagues where the only thing that matters is what you bowl tonight. Most of the time these arguments are being held by the sub 200 avg. bowlers because we are un fortunately as enamored by their abilities as we are sometimes disillusioned by are own.
    On the flipside the 220 bowler on the ths is no better than the 180 bowler on anything other than the ths and they are content to feast on the ths and the sub par bowler as we are to let them  . Why should they get in a league where there are 10 to 20 individuals or teams shooting on shots that bring them back to the days of their early beginnings of 160 games and gutter balls where they dont have the luxury of the wannabe be's to fatten up the pots for them in the hopes of the lucky once in a blue moon game where their cap would bring them up to the stratosphere of the heavy hitters.
    They are like lions in the jungle is the lion going to leave the comfort of the watering hole to find a harder place to hunt. Is the lion going to allow the hyena the privilege of dinning on the fresh kill,or waiting for his scraps. Then too,would the 180 bowler be satisfied being locked out of a league because someone else said he wasn't good enough,even though he isn't. Their are a handful of bowlers that seek out sport shots and tourneys where they may be challenged,but for the most ,its a job, its not fun, its not a personal challenge,good clean competition that could be used for the betterment of all and the sport. Why should one guy use his spare ball rather than his hook monster,should one man suffer just for sufferings sake i dont think so.    
   Bowling isn't like most sports where your physical attributes limit how good you can be. You dont have to be fast,strong,tall,nothing special is required. That being said who am I to scrutinize where someone bowls or doesn't bowl based on their skill level.  its up to me to bowl or not ,to get better or not. But if I am a part of the pride I have no intention of leaving.

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r534me

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2010, 10:32:38 AM »
quote:
quote:
It's all about money.

The house will not run a small league for the few that want a tough shot.


I don't think you guys understand the INpractability of having a small league and a sanctioned sport shot.  Its not a simple thing.  Its a matter of programming the oiling machine and the lane man hitting it when changing from shot to shot.  You have to probably have your top mechanic on that day to insure that.  If you do then that part is no big deal.  

But you have to get bowlers to pay the $15 extra.  OK, so most of you say you are happy to do that.  

The center has to have the equipment to take a tape reading every week.  That's about a $600 piece of equipment.  Then they have to have the reader to read the tape you just took, that's about a $2200 piece of equipment.  You need calibration strips for the reader every 4 months, that's $24/set.  You have to have someone that knows how to run all this equipment and access to a computer and printer.  And they have to be on hand each week prior to your sport/PBA league flooring.  All that has to be done, the tapes looked at and if they are NOT compliant, the machine adjusted to be compliant and the whole league lanes run again.  The center has to allow enough non bowling time on those lanes for all this to happen.  If you do not do this and an honor award or any special achievement award is bowled, it will not be awarded.  If awards in a sport/pba league are not awarded you are certainly going to alienate those that paid the extra $15/yr to participate.  Now lets says you've done all this......all this time, the league lanes have to be NOT BOWLED ON.  That means a loss of revenue to the house in open play, while the sport/pba pattern is put down and OK'd.  

If you do not have a lot of bowlers bowling in the sport/pba league then its really a big pain in the "you know what".  

It is a big logistical problem in a busy center.  If you have a center that normally has free open lanes in the afternoon, then it is easier.  Our center has $1 games in the afternoons after a full house of senior leagues at noon.  Its not uncommon for a waiting list for open play after 3pm to 6pm.  If you have a center like mine, then what its really going to take is a manager that LOVES the game as much as his bowlers do.  How many centers have that?  

Erin






Around the 2000 or so, Earl Anthony's Dublin bowl had a sport singles league.  It was not sanctioned as a sport league but as a regular league and sport patterns were put out.  The participation was really low to the point where the league folded after 5or 6 weeks and that was a shame.  The patterns were very flat and you had to be pretty good to average anywhere near 200.  The patterns were much more challenging than the current PBAX patterns.  

I assume that the patterns are still legal and could be put out without all of the measurements required for a sport sanctioned league.  The league fees were about the same as a regular league.  

I drove forty miles each way to bowl the league.  I was sorry to see it end that way.  


r534me

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2010, 10:55:31 AM »
quote:
this is curious to me. I am a 180ish avg bowler. I have the same access to balls and bowling lanes for practice. There are all types of classes and coaches and seminars to attend,along with the wealth of knowledge on video and in books that can be tapped to improve my game. I have all this at my disposal,so why am i not a 200 bowler.
    I think its because, as in all things, there are some things that some people are just better at than others. Better motor skills ,better at applying the knowledge they have learned with their physical abilities and those that aren't as good will tend to stay in their comfort zone.
   It is a long standing argument that those 220 and above housecats should be coupled in battle of the best scratch leagues where the only thing that matters is what you bowl tonight. Most of the time these arguments are being held by the sub 200 avg. bowlers because we are un fortunately as enamored by their abilities as we are sometimes disillusioned by are own.
    On the flipside the 220 bowler on the ths is no better than the 180 bowler on anything other than the ths and they are content to feast on the ths and the sub par bowler as we are to let them  . Why should they get in a league where there are 10 to 20 individuals or teams shooting on shots that bring them back to the days of their early beginnings of 160 games and gutter balls where they dont have the luxury of the wannabe be's to fatten up the pots for them in the hopes of the lucky once in a blue moon game where their cap would bring them up to the stratosphere of the heavy hitters.
    They are like lions in the jungle is the lion going to leave the comfort of the watering hole to find a harder place to hunt. Is the lion going to allow the hyena the privilege of dinning on the fresh kill,or waiting for his scraps. Then too,would the 180 bowler be satisfied being locked out of a league because someone else said he wasn't good enough,even though he isn't. Their are a handful of bowlers that seek out sport shots and tourneys where they may be challenged,but for the most ,its a job, its not fun, its not a personal challenge,good clean competition that could be used for the betterment of all and the sport. Why should one guy use his spare ball rather than his hook monster,should one man suffer just for sufferings sake i dont think so.    
   Bowling isn't like most sports where your physical attributes limit how good you can be. You dont have to be fast,strong,tall,nothing special is required. That being said who am I to scrutinize where someone bowls or doesn't bowl based on their skill level.  its up to me to bowl or not ,to get better or not. But if I am a part of the pride I have no intention of leaving.

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At the rate bowling is going, you'll be part of the pride bowling friday nights with the lights low and the music loud.  At least, you won't have to worry about league fees and USBC cards.

renaissanceman517kak

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2010, 11:03:48 AM »
For all the chicken-little prognostications about the death of bowling, I haven't seen any decreases in participation. And as others have said, if THS is so easy, shouldn't EVERYONE be averaging 220?

Some of you guys think you're Vince Lombardi: "Bowling: it's not life and death it's much more important than that"...

Rileybowler

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2010, 11:22:08 AM »
Perhaps what needs to be done is for the USBC to come out with a certain or a number of certain patterns to qualify for a sanctioned league. If you don't use one of these patterns then it is not sanctioned, sounds fair to me.
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mainzer

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2010, 11:45:32 AM »
quote:
For all the chicken-little prognostications about the death of bowling, I haven't seen any decreases in participation. And as others have said, if THS is so easy, shouldn't EVERYONE be averaging 220?

Some of you guys think you're Vince Lombardi: "Bowling: it's not life and death it's much more important than that"...


You don't see anything beyond your nose anyway so you wouldnt see any decrease.
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mainzer

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2010, 12:35:29 PM »
Mr Bowling 846, has a great point. Your 180-190 average bowler doesnt want to work at the sport but when a bowler that has worked at the Sport and has made his/her game better and thus attained a higher average, the 180 bowler shuns the higher average.

Using myself as the example. I have been screamed at and taunted cause I am a good bowler cause I carry more than one bowling ball with me, cause I have good form and consistency cause I put up scores where others have bowled for decades and couldnt put up scores.

How is it right for the guy that tries to be better getting taunted and put down for getting better?
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MainzerPower


Edited on 1/11/2010 1:36 PM
"No one runs...from the conquerer "

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9andaWiggle

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2010, 01:33:59 PM »
quote:
Mr Bowling 846, has a great point. Your 180-190 average bowler doesnt want to work at the sport but when a bowler that has worked at the Sport and has made his/her game better and thus attained a higher average, the 180 bowler shuns the higher average.

Using myself as the example. I have been screamed at and taunted cause I am a good bowler cause I carry more than one bowling ball with me, cause I have good form and consistency cause I put up scores where others have bowled for decades and couldnt put up scores.

How is it right for the guy that tries to be better getting taunted and put down for getting better?
--------------------
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but it could be rented remarkably cheaply"
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MainzerPower


Edited on 1/11/2010 1:36 PM


Yeah, I can't count how many times I've heard league bowlers complain about that "One team that takes things too seriously" because they actually come in, don't get drunk, don't get loud, but just try to focus and bowl the best they can every shot.

Name me one other sport where the best athletes, or those who aspire to be better athletes in the game, are rediculed, mocked, sneered at, and badmouthed by the other participants for actually trying to be good at and improve their game?  Name me one other sport that belittles those who are stewards of integrity for their respective games?  I guess with bowling, unless you get drunk, scream and yell, and give everyone high fives for not falling down on every shot, you automatically qualify as some a**hole elitist who should not be allowed to bowl anywhere, at any time, other than regional PBA tournaments?

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DON DRAPER

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Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2010, 01:53:51 PM »
when i started bowling in 1995 i didn''t have a clue what i was doing. so i read everything i could get my hands on. i watched and listened to better bowlers and pro shop operators. but mainly i practiced. i spent hours trying to improve myself. rather than brag about what i''ve accomplished since then i''ll just say this: i made myself a better player.....the hard way. despite what i''ve accomplished in league play and local tournaments i have a composite average of 203 in eight(8) pba regional tournaments. i know exactly where i stand.

Edited on 1/11/2010 2:54 PM