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Author Topic: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned  (Read 16522 times)

mogators

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Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« on: July 29, 2014, 02:56:00 PM »
We have our league meeting coming up this week and our secretary just put out an email informing everyone of the lack of awards from USBC.  People in this league (once a week bowlers who most never bowl a tournament), have argued about why we should sanction before.  I feel it will be difficult to convince them to vote to sanction this year (I'm not sure I want to myself).  What are some benefits to being sanctioned that would sway us to continue to be USBC sanctioned?
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milorafferty

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2014, 01:18:51 PM »
You are mistaken, those "non-certified" leagues are not part of your association. Your association is the USBC local, the leagues are not part of USBC therefore they are not part of your local association.
Dear milorafferty:

To be TOTALLY accurate, they are leagues in centers CERTIFIED by USBC, and they compete in an area UNDER THE JURISDICTION of the local association. And the FACT remains that of all leagues in such CERTIFIED centers, A MAJORITY ARE NON-CERTIFIED.

If the league is not USBC certified, then it's not under the local USBC Association jurisdiction. It doesn't matter whether or not you capitalize. That is just a fact. In case you wanted to be "totally accurate".
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 01:21:16 PM by milorafferty »
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Mighty Fish

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2014, 08:46:24 PM »
If the league is not USBC certified, then it's not under the local USBC Association jurisdiction. It doesn't matter whether or not you capitalize. That is just a fact. In case you wanted to be "totally accurate".
Dear milorafferty:

Thanks for your attempts to nit-pick, but I stated things accurately.

I stated that those non-certified leagues bowl IN AN AREA that is under my local association jurisdiction. According to USBC, an association’s jurisdiction (sometimes referred to as its jurisdictional boundaries) is the
geographical area the association services.

Again, although the leagues have no official ties to USBC (because they didn't certify with the national organization), they do compete in USBC-certified centers and they compete within the AREA served by the local association.

Are you saying that because they aren't under the association's jurisdiction and/or area of jurisdiction, they don't exist at all? Or are you attempting to claim that I don't know what I'm talking about?

milorafferty

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2014, 10:29:04 PM »
Now you understand my meaning perfectly.
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MI 2 AZ

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2014, 10:59:13 PM »
I'm glad you guys got that straightened out because I was getting confused.

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milorafferty

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2014, 11:06:57 PM »
I'm glad you guys got that straightened out because I was getting confused.



You're welcome!  ;D
"If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?"

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Mighty Fish

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2014, 03:37:49 PM »
I'm glad you guys got that straightened out because I was getting confused.
... but the FACT that more than half of the leagues in my area are non-USBC-certified shouldn't be confusing.

txbowler

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2014, 04:04:57 PM »
I know some people dislike the comparisons to golf. But one here sorta makes sense.

If a bowler has no desire to ever bowl in a tournament, bowls in a house where the house banks the league and has no worries about their money, and doesn't care if their scores are officially recognized, then not sanctioning makes sense.

Here's the golf analogy.  I play golf.  I keep score during my round and play by the rules.  I try to beat the guys I am playing with and have a good time playing.  I never have any desire to enter a golf tournament or have my score officially recorded.  I don't keep track of a handicap, and I don't pay to belong to a golf association.

See where I am going here?

Now here is the question.  Do I know if maybe 5 cents or 25 cents of my green fee was sent to some local, state, or national golf association where my round was "recorded".  They have no idea what I shot, but they know I paid for a round of golf.

Riggs (Jeff Richgels) who is one of our sports best supporters out there, came up with an idea where instead of asking bowlers at the start of the year to pay an extra $20 to sanction their league, instead 15 cents or 20 cents of each game bowled throughout the year in "organized" play (leagues) was deducted and sent to USBC.  If you bowled 3 leagues, you would pay 3 times the sanctioning of a bowler who only bowled 1 league.  The small fee deducted from lineage would add up over the course of a season to equal the typical $20 sanction fee.  In a 36 week league it is around 18 1/2 cents a game.

Yes proprietors would raise fees to adjust for this by probably a quarter a game to cover the cost of fee and collecting/mailing to USBC.

This way the cost of sanctioning is behind the scenes.  And within a couple of years of implementation, I doubt no one would even worry about it any more.

But if presented to the bowler, that the sanctioning is being deducted from your lineage fees that you pay to the house already, and the houses (BPAA) requesting/requiring that all their leagues participate in this program.

I wonder if bowlers would care that less than 20 cents of their lineage is being used to pay sanction fees?

Perfect Approach Pro Shop

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2014, 05:18:52 PM »
I know some people dislike the comparisons to golf. But one here sorta makes sense.

If a bowler has no desire to ever bowl in a tournament, bowls in a house where the house banks the league and has no worries about their money, and doesn't care if their scores are officially recognized, then not sanctioning makes sense.

Here's the golf analogy.  I play golf.  I keep score during my round and play by the rules.  I try to beat the guys I am playing with and have a good time playing.  I never have any desire to enter a golf tournament or have my score officially recorded.  I don't keep track of a handicap, and I don't pay to belong to a golf association.

See where I am going here?

Now here is the question.  Do I know if maybe 5 cents or 25 cents of my green fee was sent to some local, state, or national golf association where my round was "recorded".  They have no idea what I shot, but they know I paid for a round of golf.

Riggs (Jeff Richgels) who is one of our sports best supporters out there, came up with an idea where instead of asking bowlers at the start of the year to pay an extra $20 to sanction their league, instead 15 cents or 20 cents of each game bowled throughout the year in "organized" play (leagues) was deducted and sent to USBC.  If you bowled 3 leagues, you would pay 3 times the sanctioning of a bowler who only bowled 1 league.  The small fee deducted from lineage would add up over the course of a season to equal the typical $20 sanction fee.  In a 36 week league it is around 18 1/2 cents a game.

Yes proprietors would raise fees to adjust for this by probably a quarter a game to cover the cost of fee and collecting/mailing to USBC.

This way the cost of sanctioning is behind the scenes.  And within a couple of years of implementation, I doubt no one would even worry about it any more.

But if presented to the bowler, that the sanctioning is being deducted from your lineage fees that you pay to the house already, and the houses (BPAA) requesting/requiring that all their leagues participate in this program.

I wonder if bowlers would care that less than 20 cents of their lineage is being used to pay sanction fees?

So if I bowl in one league a year and they decide not to sanction and let's say I average 190, what would be my course of action for city tournament? Would I be allowed to use a "non-sanctioned" average that will never be put in a yearbook or would I be required to bowl scratch.
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JOE FALCO

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2014, 05:27:27 PM »
Perfect Pro shop ... I would imagine if the secretary of that league gave a signed letter specifying your average it would be acceptable (no experience only my opinion).

TxBowler .. seems like a workable solution .. maybe more acceptable if it was tied to NO SECRETARY fees!
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2014, 05:41:04 PM »
So if I bowl in one league a year and they decide not to sanction and let's say I average 190, what would be my course of action for city tournament? Would I be allowed to use a "non-sanctioned" average that will never be put in a yearbook or would I be required to bowl scratch.

Given if the city tournament was a USBC sanctioned tournament.

1- You'd most likely have to get a sanction card.

2- For average it would depend on the City Tour. Rules for entering averages. Most say if no yearbook average you bowl scratch or possibly use some set entering average like 2XX they might have.

You definitely would have to check with the Tourn. Director in advance to check the specific's for the situation.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 05:44:36 PM by Aloarjr810 »
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MI 2 AZ

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2014, 07:37:54 PM »
I know some people dislike the comparisons to golf. But one here sorta makes sense.

If a bowler has no desire to ever bowl in a tournament, bowls in a house where the house banks the league and has no worries about their money, and doesn't care if their scores are officially recognized, then not sanctioning makes sense.

Here's the golf analogy.  I play golf.  I keep score during my round and play by the rules.  I try to beat the guys I am playing with and have a good time playing.  I never have any desire to enter a golf tournament or have my score officially recorded.  I don't keep track of a handicap, and I don't pay to belong to a golf association.

See where I am going here?

Now here is the question.  Do I know if maybe 5 cents or 25 cents of my green fee was sent to some local, state, or national golf association where my round was "recorded".  They have no idea what I shot, but they know I paid for a round of golf.

Riggs (Jeff Richgels) who is one of our sports best supporters out there, came up with an idea where instead of asking bowlers at the start of the year to pay an extra $20 to sanction their league, instead 15 cents or 20 cents of each game bowled throughout the year in "organized" play (leagues) was deducted and sent to USBC.  If you bowled 3 leagues, you would pay 3 times the sanctioning of a bowler who only bowled 1 league.  The small fee deducted from lineage would add up over the course of a season to equal the typical $20 sanction fee.  In a 36 week league it is around 18 1/2 cents a game.

Yes proprietors would raise fees to adjust for this by probably a quarter a game to cover the cost of fee and collecting/mailing to USBC.

This way the cost of sanctioning is behind the scenes.  And within a couple of years of implementation, I doubt no one would even worry about it any more.

But if presented to the bowler, that the sanctioning is being deducted from your lineage fees that you pay to the house already, and the houses (BPAA) requesting/requiring that all their leagues participate in this program.

I wonder if bowlers would care that less than 20 cents of their lineage is being used to pay sanction fees?


So is the lineage rate the same for a short league of say, ten weeks?  Or since they have to spread the sanction fee across a smaller amount of weeks it will be a larger lineage fee. 

And, it's not 20 cents like you stated if the house adds a 'service fee' to collect and send in the fees, it will be as you said at least 25 cents or more depending on the house fee and the size of the leagues (I assume).

With a lineage fee method, the bowlers who bowl multiple leagues would be paying more (unless USBC has changed the way the sanctions were paid - it used to be one fee for an entire season, no matter how many leagues).  And for those who bowl only a ten week league, the lineage fee added would be about a dollar per game so good luck getting bowlers to join more of those type of leagues.

What happens if the proprietor is not honest about how many league bowlers he has?

Why do we have to make something so simple so difficult or complicated?

« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 07:44:25 PM by MI 2 AZ »
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Perfect Approach Pro Shop

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2014, 11:34:55 PM »
Perfect Pro shop ... I would imagine if the secretary of that league gave a signed letter specifying your average it would be acceptable (no experience only my opinion).

TxBowler .. seems like a workable solution .. maybe more acceptable if it was tied to NO SECRETARY fees!


I know the answer. I would have to bowl scratch as someone would raise the question that I bowled in an unsanctioned league. I just threw it out there as another scenario. Believe me, this question has been brought up a lot lately in our area. I personally feel that sanctioning a league gives that league rules and structure. No rules, no structure  you might as well be open bowling like someone stated previously. If I am going to bowl in an unsanctioned league, I would rather open bowl. I can go when I want and not be committed to 36 weeks on same night plus I do not have to pay a secretary to print a standing sheet since scores are already in the computer system.

Do I agree with the path USBC is going down? No. Do I have answers? No. I do think that if they do not address their sinking ship soon that someone will create a new body that will force them out.
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txbowler

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Re: Argument to convince league to get USBC sanctioned
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2014, 11:34:18 AM »
With secretary fees.  I think it depends on the league and house.

In one of the leagues I bowl, it was a 38 team league with a $75,000 prize fund.

And we got paid in cash the last night.

I have no problem with paying a secretary fee when she had to goto the bank and withdrawl 75K in cash and organize and payout everyone in exact bills.

How about the secretary of a travel league who has to drive for over an hour from her home ever month to a different center to be our secretary and she doesn't bowl in the league.  Again, the fee covers her expenses and again this secretary pays us in cash at the end of the year.

Some secretaries earn their money.

Imagine, a 38 team league where you have to count money in 38 envelopes and keep track of is the envelope marked correctly.  $60 due, $80 in envelope and no one marked the extra $20.  You are the secretary bowling on lane 5, and the team you need to ask the question to is on lane 33.  You have to walk down to the lanes and locate who put in the extra money while bowling in a competitive league.

Also, while bowling, you have over $2000 in cash and checks you are responsible for  on your lanes that you have to keep track of while you bowl until you turn it in to the center for banking.  Not that someone's kid would come by the team table and walk away with any cash.


No that never happens, right?