Quote from: Gizmo823 on February 23, 2013, 03:37:48 PM

The game is too complicated, but so is every other game now.  It's about numbers and intangibles, but at the same time people are still in the equation.  The game is all about execution now, games are always more fun when intuition is a part of it.  However, the single biggest factor in the loss of numbers as far as participation goes is the house shot.  It's so easy it's no fun.  People expect to get "perfect" games, and if they don't, it feels like a failed night.  The better bowlers quit because all the sudden people who are terrible can score almost as well as they can.  The better bowlers can stay within 1-2 boards all night, but a ring 10 or a stone 9 can lose them a game to somebody who can barely manage to stay within 5 or 6 boards.  Average bowlers quit because they don't understand how they can shoot 170 one game and 240 the next just to go back down to 150.  And the casual bowlers never really get into it because they see bowling as a joke.  Some of the most casual bowlers have the best perspective about the game because they are unbiased.  They look at a game with a rapidly declining member base, but honor score numbers are still going up?  Bowling is turning into tic tac toe.  It's zero fun because it's zero challenge, unless you want to travel or spend hundreds of dollars or both.

People who have quit because the game is "too easy" probably make up 1% of the so-called "lost" bowlers.  If you are saying they don't bowl in THS leagues and have moved on to tourneys and tougher pattern leagues, you would be partially correct.  However, the bowlers you are really describing are the so-called great bowlers who don't have the stones to bowl in a scratch tourney or league thus giving the "lesser" bowler a chance to beat them with handicap.  No matter what the shot is, somebody is going to carry a shot and win a match over a superior bowler.  Curious as to how you answer this question;  If two bowlers are bowling in a scratch tournament and a guy buries a pocket hit for a stone eight and his opponent goes brooklyn for a strike and wins the match, is the guy who got tapped going to quit?  Your hypothesis has been discussed many times and found to be full of holes.

I have thought many times about practicing the Brooklyn pocket just for the demoralizing effect it would have on the right opponents

Quote from: Gizmo823 on February 23, 2013, 03:37:48 PM

The game is too complicated, but so is every other game now.  It's about numbers and intangibles, but at the same time people are still in the equation.  The game is all about execution now, games are always more fun when intuition is a part of it.  However, the single biggest factor in the loss of numbers as far as participation goes is the house shot.  It's so easy it's no fun.  People expect to get "perfect" games, and if they don't, it feels like a failed night.  The better bowlers quit because all the sudden people who are terrible can score almost as well as they can.  The better bowlers can stay within 1-2 boards all night, but a ring 10 or a stone 9 can lose them a game to somebody who can barely manage to stay within 5 or 6 boards.  Average bowlers quit because they don't understand how they can shoot 170 one game and 240 the next just to go back down to 150.  And the casual bowlers never really get into it because they see bowling as a joke.  Some of the most casual bowlers have the best perspective about the game because they are unbiased.  They look at a game with a rapidly declining member base, but honor score numbers are still going up?  Bowling is turning into tic tac toe.  It's zero fun because it's zero challenge, unless you want to travel or spend hundreds of dollars or both.

People who have quit because the game is "too easy" probably make up 1% of the so-called "lost" bowlers.  If you are saying they don't bowl in THS leagues and have moved on to tourneys and tougher pattern leagues, you would be partially correct.  However, the bowlers you are really describing are the so-called great bowlers who don't have the stones to bowl in a scratch tourney or league thus giving the "lesser" bowler a chance to beat them with handicap.  No matter what the shot is, somebody is going to carry a shot and win a match over a superior bowler.  Curious as to how you answer this question;  If two bowlers are bowling in a scratch tournament and a guy buries a pocket hit for a stone eight and his opponent goes brooklyn for a strike and wins the match, is the guy who got tapped going to quit?  Your hypothesis has been discussed many times and found to be full of holes.

A lot of those things aren't offered in many areas of the country.  In my area, we have very few scratch leagues, and even fewer that put down tough shots.  PBA leagues are only offered in the summer for the die hards when no one is in a bowling alley anyway.  Only tournaments around are on house shots, and other tournaments are too infrequent or too expensive.  Why waste time bowling when they can play real sports?  As for your question, it depends more on the lane pattern than the bowlers.  I don't bowl many house shot tournaments because in addition to easy shots, there's handicap, they all end up being won by the best sandbaggers.  Scratch leagues on house shots are a crapshoot, and really aren't a lot of fun, because all the bowlers are usually good enough that it boils down to 250s vs 260s, whoever carries that night wins, not necessarily who bowled better, but it's easier to take because you realize you'll get that trip 4 or kick 10 one night, and it all evens out, but it still doesn't feel "right."  So instead of putting holes in my hypothesis, what is your opinion on the matter?  The rise of averages and numbers of honor scores corresponds directly with the loss of membership, it's pure logic and mathematics.  If it's not the main reason, it's at least a major contributing factor.  And that is what the discussion is about, the loss of USBC members, I didn't necessarily mean these people quit bowling completely.  You aren't staying on topic. 

Quote from: Gizmo823 on February 23, 2013, 03:37:48 PM

The game is too complicated, but so is every other game now.  It's about numbers and intangibles, but at the same time people are still in the equation.  The game is all about execution now, games are always more fun when intuition is a part of it.  However, the single biggest factor in the loss of numbers as far as participation goes is the house shot.  It's so easy it's no fun.  People expect to get "perfect" games, and if they don't, it feels like a failed night.  The better bowlers quit because all the sudden people who are terrible can score almost as well as they can.  The better bowlers can stay within 1-2 boards all night, but a ring 10 or a stone 9 can lose them a game to somebody who can barely manage to stay within 5 or 6 boards.  Average bowlers quit because they don't understand how they can shoot 170 one game and 240 the next just to go back down to 150.  And the casual bowlers never really get into it because they see bowling as a joke.  Some of the most casual bowlers have the best perspective about the game because they are unbiased.  They look at a game with a rapidly declining member base, but honor score numbers are still going up?  Bowling is turning into tic tac toe.  It's zero fun because it's zero challenge, unless you want to travel or spend hundreds of dollars or both. 

Are you serious? Zero challenge? The person behind the ball still has to perform. Last week was the purest I had rolled the ball in a LONG time I shot 783. Last night I did not roll the ball well at all shot 615. Was it the lanes due to me shooting lower, was it the ball that caused me to shoot lower? Or was it the person behind the ball? My bet is the person behind the ball! Has ball technology made it easier? Yes it has. Lane bed and lane oil technology has not stayed at the current pace of the equipment we roll on them. Yes the sport shots that some places are putting out has slowed the pace down for those leagues. Has the THS made people stop bowling? I have not heard of a single person who has stopped bowling as a result of that. Due to the rapid rate of honor scores I have heard people stop bowling from that. Centers will put down a somewhat easy shot to get league bowlers. Now you may wonder why they do that. Where does most of their money come from? Their league bowlers. The more league bowlers they have the more money they make. I stopped bowling due to not having fun because of the people I was bowling with. Not due to the sport! Now that I am back in my hometown I am bowling again and slowly starting to enjoy it and getting back to looking at bowling full time. The sport is only as fun as YOU make it. The sport is as easy or as hard as YOU make. It is also all about luck. People don't think about that side of it. Luck plays a bigger role in our sport more so then what people think. Once the ball leaves your hand it is all luck on what happens! If you want to know why I have heard most people leaving the sport it is a toss up of $ and family time, families are involved in many other activities.

I was slightly exaggerating to make a point.  It's not completely zero challenge, I meant it just feels like a complete crapshoot.  I've shot 780's before when I was so sick I couldn't see and didn't hit the same arrow twice in a row, and I've also shot 620s where my only leave was the exact same pin every single time I didn't strike.  You can't tell me you haven't had sets where you threw the ball terrible and scored well and vice versa.  If you are on a tougher shot, your score is much more indicative of how you threw the ball.  On our PBA leagues during the summer, if I bowl well, I shoot 700, if I bowl bad, I shoot 550, end of story.  If you are having fun on house shots, good for you, but when you get to the point that 700's are so common they aren't fun anymore, you might change your attitude.  There's a wall you get to eventually when you just can't average any higher than 235 or 240 for a year.  Yeah guys have done it before, but not very many.  With the way scores work, a tap here, or a miss there, and it won't be a big number. 

Here's a story.  There's a kid in my town who recently shot an 800 series.  He's not a bad kid, but he's not a good bowler, every shot he throws stretches every millimeter of the 10 board area he has.  He no thumbs it and just puts his entire body into hooking it as much as he can.  This same kid showed up to bowl our summer PBA league this last summer, shot a 354 SERIES on Cheetah the first night, packed up his stuff and never came back.  Now he can say he has an 800, just like several other bowlers in town who are actually good.  He has now become cocky, impossible to coach (he's in high school bowling) because he shot 800, why does he need more help?  This is something I have trouble handling. 

Forget trying to reason with that guy, sd.  This is the famous HamPster, author of many totally off the wall and total B.S. posts.  He'll say something then come back and say he was "exaggerating to make a point".  He can't name a single person who has quit because "bowling is too easy".  Those supposed bowlers make a living off the saps who bowl in Handicap leagues with them.  Of course, most of them don't have the balls to bowl in scratch leagues and tourneys.  Like I said, if there are any bowlers who have quit because of easy conditions it adds up to 1% of the total.   

Many quit because they no longer enjoy it. If you have bowled for years and no longer do much in the game except bowl one night a week its easy to lose interest. A ths shot is not the same every where. Many centers are run down crap shoots that shouldn't be sanctioned to bowl on. The interest in bowlers is low, the cost to update is too high. Eventually the center closes and the game has shrunk in participants. Yes a ths is easy. I'm currently bowling in the easiest center in the state. I have little to show for it because of little practice recently.

I bowl on a team that doesn't want to be there and it makes for a painful long night of bowling.  Still one pair over a guy goes 264 300 300. I will not bowl there next season. I will be on a more competitive team in a tough house. For me bowling is about who your bowling with as much as anything.

I dont think bowling is any more or less complicated that golf.  However I do think that it is possible to over analyze and think too much, especially at a high level.

I consider myself a student of the game because it helps me understand how to play lanesm, and why some balls work and others don't, but these are not the thoughts that are going through my mind once I step on the approach.   

How complicated depends on what level you are looking at.

On house shots the game is not very complicated. You pretty much know where to start and what ball to use. I personally believe that many try to make house shot league bowling too complicated.

In tournament bowling you need to be able to read patterns, know your equipment, and make the proper adjustments during play.

But I wouldn't say it is too complicated. But with the huge amount of information out there today many do over think what is going on.