BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: ITZPS on March 17, 2017, 09:36:27 AM
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I'm really curious about the feedback I'm going to get on this one . . it's a fairly "controversial" topic and I don't pull any punches on any of it. Thanks for watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2b9Zd0u-Oc
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Great discussion, I definitely agree with pretty much everything you said
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Been saying for years that the USBC overwhelmingly focuses on the elite 2%. Their entire focus is on the "Sport of Bowling" and while there is a small segment of membership that it's very important too, tournaments and the PWBA are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of our members. Just my opinion, but it seems like in order to grow membership we need far more investment in understanding what the other 98% want, but I'm sure miloraferty and Gene J Kanak will be on shortly to defend the 2%.
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Been saying for years that the USBC overwhelmingly focuses on the elite 2%. Their entire focus is on the "Sport of Bowling" and while there is a small segment of membership that it's very important too, tournaments and the PWBA are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of our members. Just my opinion, but it seems like in order to grow membership we need far more investment in understanding what the other 98% want, but I'm sure miloraferty and Gene J Kanak will be on shortly to defend the 2%.
Do you actually bowl?
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Been saying for years that the USBC overwhelmingly focuses on the elite 2%. Their entire focus is on the "Sport of Bowling" and while there is a small segment of membership that it's very important too, tournaments and the PWBA are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of our members. Just my opinion, but it seems like in order to grow membership we need far more investment in understanding what the other 98% want, but I'm sure miloraferty and Gene J Kanak will be on shortly to defend the 2%.
Do you actually bowl?
Thanks for asking, there are a lot of unsanctioned tournaments, mostly scratch, that keep me active in the sport. I bowled about 14 tournaments last year and am on pace for about 16-18 this year.
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Been saying for years that the USBC overwhelmingly focuses on the elite 2%. Their entire focus is on the "Sport of Bowling" and while there is a small segment of membership that it's very important too, tournaments and the PWBA are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of our members. Just my opinion, but it seems like in order to grow membership we need far more investment in understanding what the other 98% want, but I'm sure miloraferty and Gene J Kanak will be on shortly to defend the 2%.
Do you actually bowl?
Thanks for asking, there are a lot of unsanctioned tournaments, mostly scratch, that keep me active in the sport. I bowled about 14 tournaments last year and am on pace for about 16-18 this year.
Fair enough.
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I'm only chiming in since you felt the need to mention me in your response, Morpheus. For the record, while I agree with some of what the gentleman on the video had to say, I still am disappointed by USBC's decision to keep everything so hush hush and to nix the live streaming, which is something I've enjoyed. For a sport that wants exposure, pretending cameras and video don't exist seems silly.
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I agree with pretty much everything you said.
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Luke, great analysis. I too agree with most of what you said. None of it should be considered politically incorrect. :)
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^^ ^^
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Excellent EP 2
I agreed with everything said as a good league once a week bowler but far from the elite level. I can no longer convince my friends to even go to the Nationals anymore. Went to about 10 over the years and my goal was just to cash and only did that a few times. I loved the challenge and all that goes with the Nationals but I totally understand my friends reasoning for no longer wanting to participate when they did not enjoy the bowling experience.
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Thanks for the support everyone, really appreciate it. HOWEVER, I'm ok if someone disagrees. With the tournament involving 10k+ teams, you're going to have some differing views. If you go back a few years, I was the guy saying leagues need to be tougher, and handicap needed to be addressed, and tournaments need to be tougher. "If people want to compete, they should just get better," that was the narrative, and to a certain extent it's true. However I have two points that I found from discussion after posting the episode:
1. USBC is basically a business . . if you cater to 5% of your customer base at the expense of the other 95%, you will go out of business. If the 5% want the 95% to stick around and keep handing over their money, they're going to have to make concessions somewhere. At one point when there were 15k+ team entries a year, something right or something correct was going on then.
2. There is a question that really stumps the middle section of that 2-5%, which is the largest percentage of that group, the professional amateurs. The guys that will shark stuff like this but won't bowl professionally. I had a discussion with a buddy who did the whole, "it needs to be tough and people need to get better and we can't cater to the handicappers," and I asked him, "ok, then why don't you bowl the Masters and the US Open and do the PBA Regional circuit?" The answer? "Well I don't want to take it THAT serious, that's a ton of work and effort and I just want to do well in sweepers and these kinds of tournaments." EXACTLY. But it's not ok for the regular league bowler to say the same about the OC?
Where is the incentive for a 190 average house bowler to compete in the tournament? Other than to basically set a handful of Benjamins on fire? How does that guy that has a family and a regular job talk his wife into letting him go?
"Well are you going to win money?"
No.
"Well where's it at?"
Reno.
"Oh so there's stuff there you want to go do?"
No, there's really nothing to do in Reno.
"Oh. So what's the point in going then?"
Well there are a handful of really good bowlers that bowl the tournament, and to keep the tournament alive, me and thousands like me have to go hand over our money to them to keep them happy.
"So are you at least going to have fun?"
Probably not, the conditions are so hard even some of the great bowlers don't do so well, so I'm most likely going to bowl really bad . . but it's ok, because I'm helping to fund their bowling career. Apparently I'm supposed to do this and be happy about it.
You kidding me?
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Thanks for the support everyone, really appreciate it. HOWEVER, I'm ok if someone disagrees.
Not necessarily a disagreement, but I'm not sure that a switch to catering to the 95% would result in a commensurate increase in tournament participation. If you made conditions easier, you'd lose some percentage existing bowlers. In my case, I have no illusions about my ability relative to the upper tier. I'm definitely not part of the 5%. Still, I'm happy if I bowl 1800-1900 in all events and win a few bucks in brackets. I go because of the challenge and all the pageantry surrounding a tough tournament. If conditions get watered down, I won't go. I get enough of that kind of bowling in my THS leagues. I know of several teams in my area that would stop going too. They don't want a replay of the local county tournament.
So the question, would enough new teams be attracted to offset the loses from a change? I don't know the answer to that. It would be interesting to know.
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I go every year knowing its going to be the most difficult shot I will see all year. Its why I go to see how you stack up against the best in the world. I agree if you want easy stay home and bowl your local tournaments. Plus a reality check never hurts and lets you know your not as good as you think you are. I will agree the secrecy of the pattern needs to go away!
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Why do you need to know what the pattern will be? If you watched his video you pretty much get what has to say about it. The length of pattern dictates how much volume of oil is applied to the lane surface. The pattern hasn't really changed all that much from year to year for the last ten years. besides the one year the pattern was short with more oil volume. That is the only variation over time. If you bowled decent enough the years prior using virtually the same equipment then you don't have a need to know what the pattern is.
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There are plenty of people that go that have jumba98's attitude about going. There are also plenty of people that don't bowl for the money aspect (not just nationals, but in general). They just love to bowl. But amateurs bowling for money is a whole other Oprah.
The problem with softening the lane conditions is that they would have to make a huge jump the other direction to have a significant effect. If you go from the slightly less than 2:1 ratio they are now using to something say in the 4:1 or 5:1 ratio that is still too difficult for the average Joe to loosen up his swing, but it gives the good bowler something they will exploit. (Wallin' 'em up for the good bowlers). It would make the scoring gap even greater. So if you make the huge jump to so the conditions aren't in that range then it becomes a carry contest.
It is just a problem of bowling right now. To keep the scores lower you have to take the pocket away. That used to take care of itself way back when because not many people could strike sliding in the left gutter with a plastic or urethane ball.
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Alright.. here is is...Someone had to say it....
Sucks that your not able to drink beer!
If everyone hasn't gotten it yet, that IS the point of the videos 😋!
BTW - was out your way a few weeks ago... Stopped in and had some KC Bier - Love the Dunkle!
Oh.. back to the topic.
It absolutely doesn't matter for me. I'm a league bowler who throws on a flatter shot twice a year - my state tournament and nationals. I suck and can't repeat shots precisely enough to score of these patterns. My team plays where they feel comfortable - generally all over the place. We don't take a companion team, so get randomly matched up with who knows who. I could bowl on the exact pattern every week for a month prior to the tournament and still not shoot 650+.
Years that I bowled well, I bowled second shift and caught a pair where there was a defined spot down lane and a little area. Now that they are oiled every shift and that doesn't occur - my chances of scoring are about zero.
I suspect, the majority of bowlers are more similar to me than the "elite" too few percent that these rules were intended to influence. It just doesn't matter for me.
I am a bit annoyed with the no video rule. I enjoy watching the live feeds of the better teams - and some of the not-so-better teams from back home. Way to take that away USBC. Let me guess - next year there will be no high -fives or compliment s to teammates.
Scott
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Hey, I think that was a great video. This is going to be my first time bowling in a nationals tournament at the age of 30, and I avg around 195-200. I originally was annoyed that they didn't release the pattern, but you make a valid point watching ball reaction will be more important than what is actually released. I will be bringing 4-6 balls with me and I need to watch what my equipment is going to do. The only real thing that knowing how long the pattern is using the rule of 31, but beyond that I can make do. I do wish there was more live stream coverage of this event, as I have never watched it before so as a first time bowler coming it there isnt too much to get my excited that im coming out to bowl.
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For the first game of singles and doubles use a ball with surface. after that use what ever feels comfortable with your release. Don't over think the shot. Go with a mindset of repeating good shots. For team, play the track. Keep in mind there is out of bounds. Unless you have a slow enough ball speed to further out from your team mates. Worst would being left handed. You'd be pretty much left to play 15 to 10 minding your ball speed.
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For the first game of singles and doubles use a ball with surface. after that use what ever feels comfortable with your release. Don't over think the shot. Go with a mindset of repeating good shots. For team, play the track. Keep in mind there is out of bounds. Unless you have a slow enough ball speed to further out from your team mates. Worst would being left handed. You'd be pretty much left to play 15 to 10 minding your ball speed.
I was planning on bringing my Pitbull, Fanatic SS, Quantum Fire, and all three vandals.
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Get some practice in before going. Never mind the scoring and just focus on hitting boards at 15ft to 30ft from the line. When you repeat your shots your ball speed won't vary so much.
Vary the ball surface for each ball. Team will play a little more open for swing. Half way thru first game you'll probably be happy to settle with the fire quantum. Not knowing how you bowl. Good luck when you do go.
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See and points like this is why I'm open to disagreements. We all know that something is wrong, but I'm not arrogant enough to think I have all the answers to fix it. However, something needs to be changed that will make the bulk of your participants happy, so that thousands return home, tell their friends how much better it was, and ultimately start the tournament growing again. The elite 2-5% will never have any real impact on the tournament. If they all quit, barely a blip on the radar. Say they're 5% of the 10k teams, that's 500 teams, drops to 9500. We hit 17k at one point, and the drop didn't come out of that 2-5%.
I ultimately share your view. I liked how the tournament was the last couple years, it can stay that way and I'd be thrilled. But that just shows the disparity between views. Tournaments like Greater Ozarks thrive and grow despite having handicap, and records set in both singles (879 to win) and all events (2347 to win). Not only that but it's in the same city in the same centers every single year. Not only that but it draws big names. Andrew Cain leading virtually everything, CDB up on the board as well, last year my doubles singles squad included Justin Hromek, Chris Johnson, Paul Koehler, Rick Steelsmith, and Lonnie Waliczek. It's a handicap tournament on house shots, yet it draws year after year. What's it doing right that the OC is doing wrong?
All I know is that I deal with the average league bowler multiple times on a daily basis, and the second I stopped trying to push everyone into the perfect ball with the perfect fit and the perfect layout and push them to get better, once I relaxed and realized that not everyone wants to be a pro, not everyone wants to get better, not everyone wants to take it so seriously, my mindset changed, I'm having tons of fun to begin with, customers are happier, and business is the best it's ever been. Sometimes I shed a few tears when I do some really wrong things to bowling balls that the customer insisted on, but when their eyes light up and say it's perfect, THAT is what matters. The OC is being treated like a general admission Masters or US Open tournament and the vast majority of the 95% don't like it and honestly I have zero clue why they keep going. I hear nothing but griping and complaining and confusion while the 2-5% just grin and lick their chops. All the secrecy this year is doing is hindering education.
The second something ceases to be fun to someone is when they lose interest. Everyone has a different definition of fun, and you can't completely cater to them all, but even I can say I have a hell of a lot more fun at Greater Ozarks than I have at the OC, and THAT doesn't make much sense.
Thanks for the support everyone, really appreciate it. HOWEVER, I'm ok if someone disagrees.
Not necessarily a disagreement, but I'm not sure that a switch to catering to the 95% would result in a commensurate increase in tournament participation. If you made conditions easier, you'd lose some percentage existing bowlers. In my case, I have no illusions about my ability relative to the upper tier. I'm definitely not part of the 5%. Still, I'm happy if I bowl 1800-1900 in all events and win a few bucks in brackets. I go because of the challenge and all the pageantry surrounding a tough tournament. If conditions get watered down, I won't go. I get enough of that kind of bowling in my THS leagues. I know of several teams in my area that would stop going too. They don't want a replay of the local county tournament.
So the question, would enough new teams be attracted to offset the loses from a change? I don't know the answer to that. It would be interesting to know.
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Get some practice in before going. Never mind the scoring and just focus on hitting boards at 15ft to 30ft from the line. When you repeat your shots your ball speed won't vary so much.
Vary the ball surface for each ball. Team will play a little more open for swing. Half way thru first game you'll probably be happy to settle with the fire quantum. Not knowing how you bowl. Good luck when you do go.
I practice a couple times a week, and meet up with my coach who is on staff who tells me what I need to focus on. I am working on remaining solid at the line, and just making sure I hit my mark every time. I know there will be maybe 1-2 boards for error, whereas in a league shot you can have a 5-8 board miss at times.
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I wont go anymore unless its within driving distance of my area, which it will never be. I dont have the $1000+ every year to spend on flights, rental car, and other things id need out there only to shoot 500. Then on top of that, if i bring my family, they cant enjoy themselves without the fear they will get kicked out if they take a video of "daddy" bowling. I like the tourney, and the last one i went to was El Paso, which i drove to, and it was just OK. Nice road trip about it. I use to be a competitive/serious bowler and my scores showed when i took game serious. But i slowed down, dont take it as serious now cause kids came, and now i probably fall into the 95% that DO want to go to the Open but want a fair and playable shot and have fun, shooting 500 is never fun. Yes i know, go and practice. Easier said then done. Single parenthood is hard and rewarding and something i chose over sticking with bowling 3-4 times a week.
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Would you go if you could shoot 600 but still had no chance to cash? Is the shooting 500 the part that isn't fun or is not being competitive the part that isn't fun?
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if i bring my family, they cant enjoy themselves without the fear they will get kicked out if they take a video of "daddy" bowling.
Not being able to take a video would ruin the enjoyment of the trip? That's A LOT of value on a quick vid...my God. I would hope my family will be able to have a good time, IN VEGAS, w/o needing a vid of me.
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My kids are 8 & 9 so i wouldnt bring them to Vegas or Reno anyways. And i did bring my son to El Paso and he did take video of me bowling. I put a lot of value on my families enjoyment when they go with me. But most of the places the Nationals go now, Vegas, Reno, then somewhere else, then back to Reno and Vegas again doesnt make me want to go. Until my kids grow up and dont want to go on roadtrips with Daddy anymore, ill do my every 3rd year away from Nevada. Ill be looking forward to Syracuse though, have friends up that way so it will be worht it for me and my kids.
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Would you go if you could shoot 600 but still had no chance to cash? Is the shooting 500 the part that isn't fun or is not being competitive the part that isn't fun?
[/quoWould you go if you could shoot 600 but still had no chance to cash? Is the shooting 500 the part that isn't fun or is not being competitive the part that isn't fun?
No i probably wouldn't because i dont have the disposable income to waste knowing im probably not going to make anything off the tourney. Im not a bracket bowler so maybe im looking at it the wrong way cause more bowlers play brackets instead of worrying how they finish in the tournament proper.
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Then you just need to say that you use it as a family vacation when you do participate. Which is fine, everyone has their reasons for going.
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My kids are 8 & 9 so i wouldnt bring them to Vegas or Reno anyways.
Fair enough. There are a lot of things in Vegas kids can do (not as much in Reno) though but still, I understand this.
And i did bring my son to El Paso and he did take video of me bowling.
That had to make the whole trip worth it.
I put a lot of value on my families enjoyment when they go with me.
As do I. I have family coming to Vegas this year to watch.
But most of the places the Nationals go now, Vegas, Reno, then somewhere else, then back to Reno and Vegas again doesnt make me want to go.
To each their own. I love Vegas (Reno not so much).
Until my kids grow up and dont want to go on roadtrips with Daddy anymore, ill do my every 3rd year away from Nevada.
My child will be born next month but I can tell you this much, Daddy will still have a Nationals trip. There will be family vacations of course but I don't understand the need to take them everywhere, every time. That doesn't mean I don't think they're the most important thing in the world.
Ill be looking forward to Syracuse though, have friends up that way so it will be worht it for me and my kids.
Are you sure? They may not be able to take video of you in Syracuse if the rules remain.......won't that ruin everything?
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Wont ruin anything since they will have family/friends to be with so for that, i dont have to worry about being taped and getting thrown out. Plus, i was just offering my opinion on to reason why i dont go to nationals anymore. I value more on family enjoyment instead of personal enjoyment. Before i had kids, i loved going to nationals and usually cashed somewhat. Now its just too expensive to really go since im a single parent of 2.
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itsallaboutme, I like your point about shooting 500 and not cashing vs shooting 600 and still not cashing, because obviously the easier the shot, the higher the cut line. That is one of those critical questions they need to address when it comes to the tournament. They need to figure out what people enjoy about the tournament instead of asking a question and demanding only a one word answer from a short list of answers they've given you to pick from.
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They can send out all the surveys they want. Participation is down because people's interests change. Ask NASCAR as they remove seats from every track not in Daytona.
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Participation is down because people's interests change. Ask NASCAR as they remove seats from every track not in Daytona.
I agree with this and I think you give a good analogy.....
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There is also the unrealistic expectation part of the bowlers. USBC tries to level the playing field of sport averages to THS averages with a measly 20 or so pin difference. Bowlers see a 200 sport average equaling a 221 average and think the opposite. If I average 221 on a THS then I should average 200 at Nationals.
But we know this isn't the case. This is why people don't enjoy themselves. If I expected to shoot 550 for each event and I do, then I may enjoy myself. But if I actually shoot 450, then the enjoyment is gone.
Bowlers just need to have a better understanding of realistic expectations. If you don't practice and don't expose yourself to the same type of conditions, then your scores will be horrific to put it nicely.
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Correct. And it's not even really a survey when the answers are already provided for you.
I would say bowlers do need more realistic expectations . . but at the same time it shouldn't be up to the customer to do all the work. USBC should be putting more effort into education instead of smoke and mirrors used to keep the cash flow coming in, but they know if people know the truth, their brand is likely to suffer. They have some information available that they put out so they can say they're doing something, but it's not promoted, it's not made readily available. Most of the time that stuff is only found and watched by people who already understand it in the first place, meanwhile they "don't release the nationals pattern" which just feeds public ignorance and misconceptions.
A business that expects their customers to do all the work won't last very long. If I expected all my customers to have all the information lined up before I'd deal with them, I'd lose a lot of business. It's USBC's job to explain all this dumb crap they're doing, it's their job to provide adequate education. Bowling is suffering because it's too much work, it's too much expense, it's too much time, and it's NOT ANY EFFING FUN. I'll have people tell me bowling is too expensive and takes too much time, but they race and dump thousands into their cars. Anything that offers no returns will be seen from the negative standpoint unless the return is worth the investment, right now it's not.
Due to some schedule uncertainty, I'm not bowling nationals this year. I thought I had a chance to get on a team, but I still don't have the scheduling thing worked out and they found someone already. Not terribly broken up. To compete in the OC the way it is now, to actually COMPETE is more work than even I want to put into it right now. Maybe in a few years when life quiets down, sure, but at the same time, where's the return? Travel costs and bracket money in the thousands, a solid month of hardcore practice, for 9 games I might still go 630-630-630 and get back a couple hundred on the check. How is that worth it? What prize is at the OC that they think is so great that it's worth a significant chunk of your life and money to invest? These people making these decisions are delusional.
They can send out all the surveys they want. Participation is down because people's interests change. Ask NASCAR as they remove seats from every track not in Daytona.
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If the only reason you bowl is for the money you are never going to enjoy it.
Not counting the people on the business side of the game, except for about 50 people in the world bowling is a hobby. For a fortunate few it is a hobby that pays for itself. For the rest just be happy to get some of the money you spend on a hobby back.
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If the only reason you bowl is for the money you are never going to enjoy it.
Not counting the people on the business side of the game, except for about 50 people in the world bowling is a hobby. For a fortunate few it is a hobby that pays for itself. For the rest just be happy to get some of the money you spend on a hobby back.
This.
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I've never bowled at the OC though I plan on making it to Syracuse since I can drive it within reason. Here's my take on it for those out there that share this mindset, however small or large a group this may be. People want to have fun in a "grander setting" of something they can compete in. That's one thing but another thing is not everyone has the disposable income it takes to participate in the OC.
My approach is this.
1. Keep the different classes based on averages. Give a 185 THS avg bowler a chance to cash.
2. Keep some fire alive by making the cash line a bit more reasonable. Having fun doing your sport of choice is one thing but for many, a little cash incentive is another. If going there I know I'll probably shoot a 500 but still win some cash I'm more excited to go and grind out that 500 for the cash. Opposite that, if I can go free wheel a 670 and not cash, ehhhhh not as exciting.
The point of all my rambling. Average classes are the correct approach, make the cash line more obtainable (a few $'s feels better than 0), reveal the pattern (who gives a fu$k), allow video.
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What is meant by make the cash line more obtainable. It's a numbers game based on entries. Reaching the cash line is all about your skill level.
A 185 average league bowler that has a legit 185 average has about as much chance in the standard division as the 210 has in the regular division. And slim left town.
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Exactly . . sooooo then the tournament has to be enjoyable whether you win money or not right? Money is just a bonus, right? All they're doing is focusing on the money, especially this year. They're making people who don't even care about the money . . care about the money . . This was my point in the video that the tournament has become so centered on that 2-5% who just go for the money. The average rules have everyone confused, the shot is so difficult that I've already seen morons on my Facebook page saying, "well I started my OC preparations today . . blah blah blah, hashtag hashtag, we bowl 3 months from today exactly, counting down!" You serious? It's 9 games over 2 days and you're going to practice for 3 months? Why?
They need to do what they need to do to make the tournament enjoyable again for the 95% that support the tournament, and if it pisses some of the money sharks off, so be it, who cares. If you're that serious about it, go bowl the US Open or Masters, it's likely cheaper anyway.
Basically my point is that unless you're in the 2-5% going there specifically to win money, there is ZERO REASON to attend the OC other than just wanting to set a handful of Benjamins on fire. So if I'm not going to try to compete, they have not given me or anyone else ANY REASON to attend otherwise.
If the only reason you bowl is for the money you are never going to enjoy it.
Not counting the people on the business side of the game, except for about 50 people in the world bowling is a hobby. For a fortunate few it is a hobby that pays for itself. For the rest just be happy to get some of the money you spend on a hobby back.
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Sorry, but everyone doesn't get a trophy. Leave the cash line where it is
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I've never bowled at the OC though I plan on making it to Syracuse since I can drive it within reason. Here's my take on it for those out there that share this mindset, however small or large a group this may be. People want to have fun in a "grander setting" of something they can compete in. That's one thing but another thing is not everyone has the disposable income it takes to participate in the OC.
My approach is this.
1. Keep the different classes based on averages. Give a 185 THS avg bowler a chance to cash.
2. Keep some fire alive by making the cash line a bit more reasonable. Having fun doing your sport of choice is one thing but for many, a little cash incentive is another. If going there I know I'll probably shoot a 500 but still win some cash I'm more excited to go and grind out that 500 for the cash. Opposite that, if I can go free wheel a 670 and not cash, ehhhhh not as exciting.
The point of all my rambling. Average classes are the correct approach, make the cash line more obtainable (a few $'s feels better than 0), reveal the pattern (who gives a fu$k), allow video.
That is an absurd proposal, people should not shoot 500 and go home with money. Thats not "fun", thats "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.
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Exactly . . sooooo then the tournament has to be enjoyable whether you win money or not right? Money is just a bonus, right? All they're doing is focusing on the money, especially this year. They're making people who don't even care about the money . . care about the money . . This was my point in the video that the tournament has become so centered on that 2-5% who just go for the money. The average rules have everyone confused, the shot is so difficult that I've already seen morons on my Facebook page saying, "well I started my OC preparations today . . blah blah blah, hashtag hashtag, we bowl 3 months from today exactly, counting down!" You serious? It's 9 games over 2 days and you're going to practice for 3 months? Why?
They need to do what they need to do to make the tournament enjoyable again for the 95% that support the tournament, and if it pisses some of the money sharks off, so be it, who cares. If you're that serious about it, go bowl the US Open or Masters, it's likely cheaper anyway.
Basically my point is that unless you're in the 2-5% going there specifically to win money, there is ZERO REASON to attend the OC other than just wanting to set a handful of Benjamins on fire. So if I'm not going to try to compete, they have not given me or anyone else ANY REASON to attend otherwise.
If the only reason you bowl is for the money you are never going to enjoy it.
Not counting the people on the business side of the game, except for about 50 people in the world bowling is a hobby. For a fortunate few it is a hobby that pays for itself. For the rest just be happy to get some of the money you spend on a hobby back.
Exactly. The same donkeys; "HeeHaw, HeeHaw, i have to drill a ball for Nationals".
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Probably worded it wrong. Again never bowled it, outside looking in so far. I was under the assumption a 500 at the OC was quite decent?
I'm going next year knowing I'm not going to cash, I just want to see how I fair and bowl in the big tournament setting. But, I don't know that enough people go for the same reason I mentioned as I imagine many of the other folks here go for, and that is for the fun competitive aspect.
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Once the tournament concludes, is there a final standings list published? If so, I would like to go just to see I wasnt last lol.
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Once the tournament concludes, is there a final standings list published? If so, I would like to go just to see I wasnt last lol.
http://apps.bowl.com/tournaments/usbcopen/national/resultssearch.aspx
You can see how you did for any year.
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500 may be respectable in the classified division. But I assumed everyone in this discussion has graduated to big girl panties.
I don't understand how adding a division is helping the 2%'ers. It took away half of their gravy train.
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500 may be respectable in the classified division. But I assumed everyone in this discussion has graduated to big girl panties.
I don't understand how adding a division is helping the 2%'ers. It took away half of their gravy train.
And it is astounding to watch those arrogant pricks cannabalize each other in brackets.
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Adding a division and not releasing the shot is smoke and mirrors for the 95% who think "finally they're making it more fair," without actually doing anything. Yeah, the 2%ers are pissed, but none of them are going to stop going because of it, and more people in the 180-209 average range may start coming to the tournament . . but I've heard they did add more side action. They shouldn't have been allowed to feed on the 185 averages in the first place, but I'm not entirely sure what they did made anything better . .
500 may be respectable in the classified division. But I assumed everyone in this discussion has graduated to big girl panties.
I don't understand how adding a division is helping the 2%'ers. It took away half of their gravy train.
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I still don't understand how you can think adding a division for a group of bowlers who essentially had no chance to win or even cash before is doing nothing.
Not releasing the pattern just saves every person working the tournament not to have to hear "this isn't right, it's nowhere close to what we practiced on at home." And not doing the livestream is probably nothing more than a cost saving measure that was disguised as something else.
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This will be my 30th year bowling the OC and changes have happened many times over these years always with the same debates.
1. No PBA members were allowed then changed to exclude only the top 24 money winners from previous years or if you were exempt, to now when everybody is able to compete.
2. Women allowed to bowl, which I feel had the biggest uproar I've ever seen with changes.
All of the changes right or wrong are an attempt to increase the numbers attending.
Not releasing this shot doesn't bother me, when I started going you didn't know til you went (no internet or cell phones) in those days, it was word of mouth.
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I still don't understand how you can think adding a division for a group of bowlers who essentially had no chance to win or even cash before is doing nothing.
Not releasing the pattern just saves every person working the tournament not to have to hear "this isn't right, it's nowhere close to what we practiced on at home." And not doing the livestream is probably nothing more than a cost saving measure that was disguised as something else.
If it is truly a financial decision to get rid of the live stream, then should that decision be with the bowlers? If USBC wants to increase revenue by subtraction, fine. But if they really want to increase revenue, then sell beer. Instant millions.
But if the removal of the pattern info was in the name of fair competition, then I would guess the live stream is also. It just happens to cheapen the costs as a by-product.
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I still don't understand how you can think adding a division for a group of bowlers who essentially had no chance to win or even cash before is doing nothing.
Not releasing the pattern just saves every person working the tournament not to have to hear "this isn't right, it's nowhere close to what we practiced on at home." And not doing the livestream is probably nothing more than a cost saving measure that was disguised as something else.
If it is truly a financial decision to get rid of the live stream, then should that decision be with the bowlers? If USBC wants to increase revenue by subtraction, fine. But if they really want to increase revenue, then sell beer. Instant millions.
But if the removal of the pattern info was in the name of fair competition, then I would guess the live stream is also. It just happens to cheapen the costs as a by-product.
In that same breath, couldn't they wrap the live stream into a deal with xtra frame somehow? Xtra frame is trying to increase their customer base...this could be something to work with.
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If they'd have left the average rules alone, sure, but they're barely 3 weeks into the tournament disqualifying and rerating people. Several people I know are in divisions they shouldn't be in because of the average rules/conversions, and the divisions that have to bother with that stuff are full of people who don't understand OR want to bother with it.
I like adding that division, because like I said, the 2%ers shouldn't have been allowed to feed on them in the first place. In this whole mess, adding a division has really been the one thing they changed that I like or am ok with. The average rules have created a nightmare though and they're doing a piss poor job handling it.
I still don't understand how you can think adding a division for a group of bowlers who essentially had no chance to win or even cash before is doing nothing.
Not releasing the pattern just saves every person working the tournament not to have to hear "this isn't right, it's nowhere close to what we practiced on at home." And not doing the livestream is probably nothing more than a cost saving measure that was disguised as something else.
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It is a bowler's responsibility to know the rules. If anyone falsified their average they should be rerated or disqualified. Protecting the rest of the field is more important than keeping one person from getting their feelings hurt. It isn't too tough to verify your average. I'm pretty sure anyone that has ever bowled a city or state tournament has had to do the same thing. I would venture to guess that if you don't want to be bothered with verifying your average then nobody is going to stop someone from saying I don't want to mess with this put me in the regular division.
And show me a tournament that has average divisions that isn't a nightmare or someone isn't trying to game the system.
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A couple of points really hit home. Pattern releases don't matter. It's not going to be long, it's not going to the short and it will be flat. Second point is that the vast majority won't see a pattern like the OC pattern but for 9 games a year.
The biggest issue I have is the whole average deal. You have to take the highest of your;
1. Open Championships tournament average based on most recent 27 games since 2008 adjusted utilizing the USBC Sport Average Adjustment Scale (like that will be the highest!)
2. Past three seasons of USBC certified league play (see below)
3. Any league average reported as a Sport or Challenge league will be adjusted utilizing the USBC Sport Average Adjustment Scale (few and far between)
You take the highest of those three and then get placed in the proper division, below 181, 181-209 or over 209.
Knowing the state of the game today (nuclear balls on super soft house conditions) my guess is that the vast majority are going to have a league average that will still place them in the regular division. Look at the league sheet and just count the number of people over 210 now compared to 10 years ago. The number has gone through the roof due to condition and equipment. Those same people are now being lumped into a division due to the inability of USBC to govern the day to day operation. Average integrity starts at the league level, not at the OC. Is it the fault of Average Joe that their center lays down a soft pattern? No way! There aren't that many leagues that have a challenge pattern or even a modified house pattern. The proprietors are in a catch 22. Make the pattern harder and you lose bowlers because they will go across town where everyone bowls well. So is it the proprietor who is at fault for laying down a soft pattern? Again, no way!. The fault lies with the governing body (USBC) by not bring integrity to the day to day operation of each and every league out there.
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As to who's fault it is for the easy patterns, the blame can't be placed on the USBC or the proprietors. It is on us, the bowlers. Too many bowlers will refuse to bowl in houses that are tougher or refuse to bowl on sport leagues. They want to see the high scores and thus, a high average.
In fact, it is getting so bad, that bowlers in our house are starting to schedule prebowls when they find out they are scheduled to bowl on our two difficult pairs. We have one pair of lanes that will play drastically different from each other depending on which end of the house the lane machine starts from and another pair that bowlers have a very difficult time carrying on. Lately some teams are scheduling prebowls or makeups to avoid those pairs and they will usually win against the team that did show up to bowl on those lanes since they did their prebowl or makeup on a different pair.
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I won't insult your intelligence and assume that you don't know the new average rules or the ways they arrive at your average. These people I know have followed all the rules and one about got rerated on site after "following the rules" which put them in a division they shouldn't have been in. It's not about cheating or falsifying, it's about learning all the rules and following them and still getting harassed because the average rules are inadequate. The loopholes and just plain holes period in the ways they arrive at your qualifying average are what is causing the problems, not sandbagging or cheating.
It is a bowler's responsibility to know the rules. If anyone falsified their average they should be rerated or disqualified. Protecting the rest of the field is more important than keeping one person from getting their feelings hurt. It isn't too tough to verify your average. I'm pretty sure anyone that has ever bowled a city or state tournament has had to do the same thing. I would venture to guess that if you don't want to be bothered with verifying your average then nobody is going to stop someone from saying I don't want to mess with this put me in the regular division.
And show me a tournament that has average divisions that isn't a nightmare or someone isn't trying to game the system.
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As to who's fault it is for the easy patterns, the blame can't be placed on the USBC or the proprietors. It is on us, the bowlers. Too many bowlers will refuse to bowl in houses that are tougher or refuse to bowl on sport leagues. They want to see the high scores and thus, a high average.
In fact, it is getting so bad, that bowlers in our house are starting to schedule prebowls when they find out they are scheduled to bowl on our two difficult pairs. We have one pair of lanes that will play drastically different from each other depending on which end of the house the lane machine starts from and another pair that bowlers have a very difficult time carrying on. Lately some teams are scheduling prebowls or makeups to avoid those pairs and they will usually win against the team that did show up to bowl on those lanes since they did their prebowl or makeup on a different pair.
They should have to bowl their makeup or prebowl games on the upcoming pair they would have bowled on then. Make ups and prebowls must be scheduled and so reserve the correct pair accordingly. That's what I would do.
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Is it just me or has banning live streams and individual videos killed some of the buzz about the Open Championships. Emperor Murphy and his "task force" have this all figured out so it's probably just my imagination but has anyone else noticed this?
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Is it just me or has banning live streams and individual videos killed some of the buzz about the Open Championships. Emperor Murphy and his "task force" have this all figured out so it's probably just my imagination but has anyone else noticed this?
The "average league bowler" who makes up the vast majority of Nationals participation generally doesn't even know live streams exist. As Luke pointed out, they mostly go for a vacation or the just the plain pageantry of the tournament.
So any "buzz" that's killed is mostly among the small percent of more talented bowlers who get into the minutia of what's happening at the tournament. Since you have a general disdain for this layer of USBC member, what's your beef?
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Seems like bowling could use all the exposure it can get whether organized by USBC or bowler generated content on social media. I like to watch good bowling and there's much less of it this year, hence my comment, seems like less buzz.
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It's less buzz and entirely bad press. Every press release is something that makes them look bad. I also heard a story about some woman's average being arbitrarily adjusted because she was a lower average with higher averages on her team, but her average was low enough to put them in a lower division. Apparently they thought it would look bad to have those higher averages on a team in a lower division, so her average was randomly adjusted up to put them in the division they "should be in," as to avoid any complaints.
Steven is right though, most people don't know the livestreams exist. If you go back and look at viewership numbers from the streams last year, not very high, and a lot of those views are the same people several times, not to mention a lot of views from people who don't even attend the tournament. The average bowler isn't going to sit there and watch random people bowling for 3 hours . . or 4 hours depending on how "good" they are ;D ;D ;D
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Luke, like you, I was a live stream junkie. I like watching good bowling at the tournament, and I'm not happy they took it away. Hopefully, they'll review everything at the end and bring it back.
This whole secrecy thing is really stupid.
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I really enjoyed the live streams and I hope they bring them back. I realize I may be the minority there but it was still decent entertainment, at least I thought so.