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Author Topic: Big league problem need help  (Read 9254 times)

12XSECH

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Big league problem need help
« on: December 30, 2015, 06:43:33 AM »
One of he leagues im in is a small league. 10 teams with 3 per team. Its a split season, the 1st half gets a prize fund and the second half gets a prize fund. They call it a split "session". Heres the problem...2 teams are dropping out as the 1st half ended. This gives a total of 8 teams left. The 1st half is finished and our team is paid in full. We want to leave the league before the 2nd half starts. We were told if we leave we forfeit our 1st half prize fund which is $420.00 per person (2nd place). I never heard of such a thing, we were never given the rules even though we asked for them over and over. The secretary said its not a split season...its a split "session" and thats why we forfeit our winnings. I am contacting the local USBC but has anyone ever heard of this?
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2015, 08:54:03 PM »
That's not how league contracts work.
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12XSECH

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2016, 08:06:01 AM »
I called our local USBC office and the National office...The rule is ...Any team can leave if proper procedures are followed and there is sufficient reason. Money is forfeited  if a team is behind on paying and just quits the league with no notice. That is not the case here.
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WOWZERS

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2016, 09:21:54 AM »
Like others have said, although you may believe the reasons listed are "sufficient", the league could fight it and leave the decision up to the local USBC or National USBC office. If someone in the offices does not agree, you may be on the outside looking in.
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mrwizerd

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2016, 12:40:54 PM »
Quote from: WOWZERS on January 01, 2016, 09:21:54 AM
Like others have said, although you may believe the reasons listed are "sufficient", the league could fight it and leave the decision up to the local USBC or National USBC office. If someone in the offices does not agree, you may be on the outside looking in.

You couldn't be more right.
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rvmark

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2016, 12:56:03 PM »
I would have to agree with the comments on "sufficient reason".  Would not think that because 2 other teams were leaving would give you sufficient reason to leave.   JMO
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Bowler19525

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2016, 05:26:55 PM »
Sufficient reason is usually things such as injury, medical, moving, job/hours change, or other life event that literally prevents someone from being able to bowl or get to the lanes on time.

If sufficient reason included things such as dirty settee areas/tables, fluctuating team rosters, "lousy" lane conditions, incorrect schedules, league rule sheet distribution issues, etc. then every single sanctioned bowler in the world would automatically have sufficient reason to quit any league whenever they wanted and take prize money with them.

Unfortunately there will be occasions on every league that may be displeasing to people.  If staying on the league causes constant misery, you pay 2 weeks and walk away; find your own replacement and then walk away; or hang in there to the bitter end and then join a different league next season.  I think every bowler has been in this situation and fully understands the plight.  Some weeks are good, some weeks are bad.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 06:30:05 PM by Bowler19525 »
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WOWZERS

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2016, 11:23:25 AM »
I happened to run into one of the local USBC association folks while practicing yesterday and asked if he could give me his opinion on "sufficient reason" to leave a league. He stated that short of stealing money, physical/verbal threats, very rarely does a team get to leave a league mid-season.

Specifically concerning dirty floors, a long drive, etc....the official laughed and said they (association) would essentially tell the person/team to "go pound salt". Those are not real reasons, those are excuses he said.

Yep, its a different association than yours and it is the opinion of just ONE official, but you may run into this.
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12XSECH

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2016, 06:47:34 AM »
I spoke to the rules dept at the national office...They said what I said in an earlier post....
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WOWZERS

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2016, 06:51:39 AM »
And once again, you said "sufficient reason" in your response. When you lay out all of your reasons, will the local office or the national office believe them to be "sufficient". One local official for my area said no. Yours might be different.
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spmcgivern

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2016, 08:57:59 AM »
On the surface these "reasons" don't sound like they are sufficient enough.  And if I worked for the association I would probably not call them sufficient either.

However, there are clear rules and regulations for the expectations of the league officers.  From the written account here, they are not meeting those expectations.  So at what point does the bowler have any power over an incorrectly run league?  The prize fund is due no later than the 5th week.  If it is late does it really matter since there appears to be no recourse?  If the rules are required to be handed out to every league member, if they are not does it matter?

At some point, the league needs to be held accountable for the inadequacies of the officers.  If not, then the rules are useless.
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WOWZERS

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2016, 09:38:02 AM »
spm -
The only time I heard of a league revolt in my area (many houses - 10+ and half have 50+ lanes) was because as the OP in this thread stated, the prize caps were not handed out after being asked for them and a litany of other reasons. So, a majority of the team captains got together at the end of a bowling night and told the rest of the league that if the treasurer or secretary - forget which one it was - did not pass out what was requested before league started next week, the teams represented by the team captains would not bowl and would not until the items were handed out as required and requested. Amazing how fast those items were ready then.

Point being, something should have been done when the issue occurred, not weeks later. The bowler continued to bowl after the issue occurred and now the sheets are available. So yes, while there was an issue originally, the issue has been taken care of. So why quit now and recite something from weeks ago as the reason that has now been resolved? OP should have walked out when the league could not produce the sheets, not weeks afterwards. That is definitive and direct proof that quitting the league is a direct result of the inability of the league to produce required documents. However, the bowler and team continued to bowl.

By the way, I agree with the OP that this sounds like a poorly run league. The problem is that in my years of research to earn my doctorate degree, when proof is found, you do not sit on it, you act on it immediately.  Sitting on it only allows others to act on it or for a point of reasonableness to use the proof to pass. In this case, the issue is now resolved, so the proof that the OP wants to quit because the league is poorly run has passed.
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spmcgivern

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2016, 12:38:42 PM »
Quote from: WOWZERS on January 04, 2016, 09:38:02 AM
spm -
The only time I heard of a league revolt in my area (many houses - 10+ and half have 50+ lanes) was because as the OP in this thread stated, the prize caps were not handed out after being asked for them and a litany of other reasons. So, a majority of the team captains got together at the end of a bowling night and told the rest of the league that if the treasurer or secretary - forget which one it was - did not pass out what was requested before league started next week, the teams represented by the team captains would not bowl and would not until the items were handed out as required and requested. Amazing how fast those items were ready then.

Point being, something should have been done when the issue occurred, not weeks later. The bowler continued to bowl after the issue occurred and now the sheets are available. So yes, while there was an issue originally, the issue has been taken care of. So why quit now and recite something from weeks ago as the reason that has now been resolved? OP should have walked out when the league could not produce the sheets, not weeks afterwards. That is definitive and direct proof that quitting the league is a direct result of the inability of the league to produce required documents. However, the bowler and team continued to bowl.

By the way, I agree with the OP that this sounds like a poorly run league. The problem is that in my years of research to earn my doctorate degree, when proof is found, you do not sit on it, you act on it immediately.  Sitting on it only allows others to act on it or for a point of reasonableness to use the proof to pass. In this case, the issue is now resolved, so the proof that the OP wants to quit because the league is poorly run has passed.
I understand what you are saying.  Could the issues have been handled earlier, sure.  If this were to go to a hypothetical court of law, then the timeliness of the departure request would be critical.

But I am sure this isn't the first time this has happened.  And I am not trying to defend the sufficient cause claim (though I am playing devil's advocate).  I feel USBC needs to define the consequences of improperly run leagues and define what recourse the bowlers have.  Allowing poorly run leagues to continue with no recourse will only make competitive bowling look worse than it already does in the eyes of the participants.  As it sits right now, the bowlers don't have many options when they encounter bad leagues.
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WOWZERS

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2016, 12:40:52 PM »
You are correct. When someone quits, what if the league decides to report the person/team to the USBC? In spite, maybe right, maybe wrong. Seems like the league/officers hold all the cards and the bowlers do not.
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12XSECH

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2016, 01:35:11 PM »
The bowlers / teams have to have rights. A sloppy center, poorly run league should be enough cause for a team to leave. Why should a bowler pay week in and week out when the center is dirty, poor lane conditions from week to week and on top of that a league that is run like crap? As it is I leave work early to get there so not only do I lose money from work, I have to bowl in a place and in a league that are not run well at all. This center is on it 3rd or 4th manager since September...That alone says something about the house.
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JJKinGA

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Re: Big league problem need help
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2016, 01:43:39 PM »
If the league officers hold all the cards it is because they were given to them.  The officers are up for election at the start of each season.  I was league president for three league session a in a row.  First time I volunteered because the previous officers did a poor job.  I got things running well.  Then I was the defacto choice for league officer.  No one ever volunteers for the job, because 90% of the time is dealing with the 5% of complainers in the league.  The other 10% is just reminding everyone what needs to be done and when and also auditing the bank balance for the league every month.  It isn't hard and doesn't take more than an extra 20 to 30 minutes a week at the busy times. If you aren't happy with the officers then find and elect someone who will do the job. 
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