BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: 12XSECH on December 30, 2015, 06:43:33 AM
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One of he leagues im in is a small league. 10 teams with 3 per team. Its a split season, the 1st half gets a prize fund and the second half gets a prize fund. They call it a split "session". Heres the problem...2 teams are dropping out as the 1st half ended. This gives a total of 8 teams left. The 1st half is finished and our team is paid in full. We want to leave the league before the 2nd half starts. We were told if we leave we forfeit our 1st half prize fund which is $420.00 per person (2nd place). I never heard of such a thing, we were never given the rules even though we asked for them over and over. The secretary said its not a split season...its a split "session" and thats why we forfeit our winnings. I am contacting the local USBC but has anyone ever heard of this?
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Yes that is the USBC ruling. It is one season with 2 sessions. If you quit anytime during the season with out a replacement then you give up your prize winnings. Had this happen last year and the USBC ruled in that the league was correct in not awarding the prize payout from the first half.
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our Sunday league is that way, but we made it clear in our by-laws that you have to bowl both halves to receive payment. it was put in to stop teams from quitting if they did bad 1st 1/2 . our league is 36 weeks w/ 2 18 week sessions.
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Just curious to know why 3 out of 10 teams want to quit this league?
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According to the USBC rules, as long as the members follow the proper procedures for withdrawing. Rule 114 – Withdrawals/Resignations
They are entitled to the prize money.
You only forfeit prize money if you improperly quit the league.
Rule 114 – Withdrawals/Resignations
114a. Procedure for Withdrawing
Members of a league may withdraw from a league during a season.
1. If a team or individual must withdraw, the following procedure is to be followed:
a. Two weeks notice must be given along with sufficient cause for resigning.
1) A team shall give notice to the league secretary.
2) A member resigning from a team shall give notice to the captain and the
league secretary.
b. The resigning member(s) must pay league fees for two weeks if the bowler is not
replaced within that period.
2. If proper notice and sufficient cause is not given, all franchise, prize and any other money for which
the team or individual may have been eligible will be forfeited, unless the league board determines
otherwise. In addition, the member(s) shall be subject to suspension of USBC membership.
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2 teams were constant absents and they just quit... My team doesn't want to bowl with only 8 teams. At start of this season there was supposed to be 12 teams but 10 showed up... So it went from 12 to 10 to 8...
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what's wrong with an 8 team league?
IMO you should support the league in hopes that it will grow next season
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According to the USBC rules, as long as the members follow the proper procedures for withdrawing. Rule 114 – Withdrawals/Resignations
They are entitled to the prize money.
You only forfeit prize money if you improperly quit the league.
Rule 114 – Withdrawals/Resignations
114a. Procedure for Withdrawing
Members of a league may withdraw from a league during a season.
1. If a team or individual must withdraw, the following procedure is to be followed:
a. Two weeks notice must be given along with sufficient cause for resigning.
1) A team shall give notice to the league secretary.
2) A member resigning from a team shall give notice to the captain and the
league secretary.
b. The resigning member(s) must pay league fees for two weeks if the bowler is not
replaced within that period.
2. If proper notice and sufficient cause is not given, all franchise, prize and any other money for which
the team or individual may have been eligible will be forfeited, unless the league board determines
otherwise. In addition, the member(s) shall be subject to suspension of USBC membership.
Based on the quoted rule, I don't think "My team doesn't want to bowl with only 8 teams," will be enough to satisfy the requirement of sufficient cause in order to release your team from the league.
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Aside from not wanting to bowl with 8 teams the league is poorly run. We never received copies of the rules even though we asked for them. The prize fund wasnt out until week 9, then had to be adjusted because they let a new team in the league. The new prize fund wasnt out until week 15. The lane conditions are terrible from week to week...I had to sweep the floor myself Tuesday because there were pretzels and pieces of chicken wings all over the place from a kids party in the afternoon...They have the handicap, scores and schedule wrong. 3 weeks ago it had to be pointed out to them that the last 2 weeks (17 and 18) are position nights...They had week 17 as a regular schedule...When I pointed this out to them, then they corrected it. So its not just that its 8 teams. Practice starts at 7:15..I work in Manhattan (NYC) I have to leave work an hour early to get there on time...with all this, its just not a good situation.
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Aside from not wanting to bowl with 8 teams the league is poorly run. We never received copies of the rules even though we asked for them. The prize fund wasnt out until week 9, then had to be adjusted because they let a new team in the league. The new prize fund wasnt out until week 15. The lane conditions are terrible from week to week...I had to sweep the floor myself Tuesday because there were pretzels and pieces of chicken wings all over the place from a kids party in the afternoon...They have the handicap, scores and schedule wrong. 3 weeks ago it had to be pointed out to them that the last 2 weeks (17 and 18) are position nights...They had week 17 as a regular schedule...When I pointed this out to them, then they corrected it. So its not just that its 8 teams. Practice starts at 7:15..I work in Manhattan (NYC) I have to leave work an hour early to get there on time...with all this, its just not a good situation.
Based on the above quoted reasons, I think it is a sufficient reason. However, the word sufficient in the rule is subjective to the powers that be.
With that said, how much is your weekly fee? Assuming 36-week league with 2 18-week sessions, you might owe less than what your prize fund would pay. I would at least evaluate paying the rest of the year out and bowl whenever you feel like it (take forfeits for the rest) and get your prize fund at the end of the year.
i.e. 18-weeks at $20 a week means you owe $360 so earning $420 gives you an extra $60.
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$26.00 per week.
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Well, in that case, consider if you will get anything for the second half. You probably get some point money perhaps? Personal/Team awards? I would hate to see you give up your money.
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I have been in a league that my team wanted to drop from, but we stuck it out and at the payout night when they asked if we would be back we told them no. In your case (if you are lucky and they ask why) then you can rattle off all of the examples that you have talked about in previous posts.
From a monetary stance with you having $420 coming from just the 1st half, I would gut it out and try and make the most $$$ you can in the 2nd half. If you get close to your 1st half winnings in the 2nd half you will have done quite well (in my book).
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$420 isn't life changing money, it's a bad roll at the craps table. Just decide if it's something you want to do for the next 18 weeks.
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You have to also remember the league signs a contract with the bowling alley and they are responsible to pay for the whole year, so every bowler that is in the league is obligated to pay for the whole year or get a replacement team to take over the obligation. If you do not pay the entire amount then you can be banned from participation in sanctioned league bowling until it is paid.
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That's not how league contracts work.
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I called our local USBC office and the National office...The rule is ...Any team can leave if proper procedures are followed and there is sufficient reason. Money is forfeited if a team is behind on paying and just quits the league with no notice. That is not the case here.
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Like others have said, although you may believe the reasons listed are "sufficient", the league could fight it and leave the decision up to the local USBC or National USBC office. If someone in the offices does not agree, you may be on the outside looking in.
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Like others have said, although you may believe the reasons listed are "sufficient", the league could fight it and leave the decision up to the local USBC or National USBC office. If someone in the offices does not agree, you may be on the outside looking in.
You couldn't be more right.
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I would have to agree with the comments on "sufficient reason". Would not think that because 2 other teams were leaving would give you sufficient reason to leave. JMO
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Sufficient reason is usually things such as injury, medical, moving, job/hours change, or other life event that literally prevents someone from being able to bowl or get to the lanes on time.
If sufficient reason included things such as dirty settee areas/tables, fluctuating team rosters, "lousy" lane conditions, incorrect schedules, league rule sheet distribution issues, etc. then every single sanctioned bowler in the world would automatically have sufficient reason to quit any league whenever they wanted and take prize money with them.
Unfortunately there will be occasions on every league that may be displeasing to people. If staying on the league causes constant misery, you pay 2 weeks and walk away; find your own replacement and then walk away; or hang in there to the bitter end and then join a different league next season. I think every bowler has been in this situation and fully understands the plight. Some weeks are good, some weeks are bad.
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I happened to run into one of the local USBC association folks while practicing yesterday and asked if he could give me his opinion on "sufficient reason" to leave a league. He stated that short of stealing money, physical/verbal threats, very rarely does a team get to leave a league mid-season.
Specifically concerning dirty floors, a long drive, etc....the official laughed and said they (association) would essentially tell the person/team to "go pound salt". Those are not real reasons, those are excuses he said.
Yep, its a different association than yours and it is the opinion of just ONE official, but you may run into this.
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I spoke to the rules dept at the national office...They said what I said in an earlier post....
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And once again, you said "sufficient reason" in your response. When you lay out all of your reasons, will the local office or the national office believe them to be "sufficient". One local official for my area said no. Yours might be different.
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On the surface these "reasons" don't sound like they are sufficient enough. And if I worked for the association I would probably not call them sufficient either.
However, there are clear rules and regulations for the expectations of the league officers. From the written account here, they are not meeting those expectations. So at what point does the bowler have any power over an incorrectly run league? The prize fund is due no later than the 5th week. If it is late does it really matter since there appears to be no recourse? If the rules are required to be handed out to every league member, if they are not does it matter?
At some point, the league needs to be held accountable for the inadequacies of the officers. If not, then the rules are useless.
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spm -
The only time I heard of a league revolt in my area (many houses - 10+ and half have 50+ lanes) was because as the OP in this thread stated, the prize caps were not handed out after being asked for them and a litany of other reasons. So, a majority of the team captains got together at the end of a bowling night and told the rest of the league that if the treasurer or secretary - forget which one it was - did not pass out what was requested before league started next week, the teams represented by the team captains would not bowl and would not until the items were handed out as required and requested. Amazing how fast those items were ready then.
Point being, something should have been done when the issue occurred, not weeks later. The bowler continued to bowl after the issue occurred and now the sheets are available. So yes, while there was an issue originally, the issue has been taken care of. So why quit now and recite something from weeks ago as the reason that has now been resolved? OP should have walked out when the league could not produce the sheets, not weeks afterwards. That is definitive and direct proof that quitting the league is a direct result of the inability of the league to produce required documents. However, the bowler and team continued to bowl.
By the way, I agree with the OP that this sounds like a poorly run league. The problem is that in my years of research to earn my doctorate degree, when proof is found, you do not sit on it, you act on it immediately. Sitting on it only allows others to act on it or for a point of reasonableness to use the proof to pass. In this case, the issue is now resolved, so the proof that the OP wants to quit because the league is poorly run has passed.
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spm -
The only time I heard of a league revolt in my area (many houses - 10+ and half have 50+ lanes) was because as the OP in this thread stated, the prize caps were not handed out after being asked for them and a litany of other reasons. So, a majority of the team captains got together at the end of a bowling night and told the rest of the league that if the treasurer or secretary - forget which one it was - did not pass out what was requested before league started next week, the teams represented by the team captains would not bowl and would not until the items were handed out as required and requested. Amazing how fast those items were ready then.
Point being, something should have been done when the issue occurred, not weeks later. The bowler continued to bowl after the issue occurred and now the sheets are available. So yes, while there was an issue originally, the issue has been taken care of. So why quit now and recite something from weeks ago as the reason that has now been resolved? OP should have walked out when the league could not produce the sheets, not weeks afterwards. That is definitive and direct proof that quitting the league is a direct result of the inability of the league to produce required documents. However, the bowler and team continued to bowl.
By the way, I agree with the OP that this sounds like a poorly run league. The problem is that in my years of research to earn my doctorate degree, when proof is found, you do not sit on it, you act on it immediately. Sitting on it only allows others to act on it or for a point of reasonableness to use the proof to pass. In this case, the issue is now resolved, so the proof that the OP wants to quit because the league is poorly run has passed.
I understand what you are saying. Could the issues have been handled earlier, sure. If this were to go to a hypothetical court of law, then the timeliness of the departure request would be critical.
But I am sure this isn't the first time this has happened. And I am not trying to defend the sufficient cause claim (though I am playing devil's advocate). I feel USBC needs to define the consequences of improperly run leagues and define what recourse the bowlers have. Allowing poorly run leagues to continue with no recourse will only make competitive bowling look worse than it already does in the eyes of the participants. As it sits right now, the bowlers don't have many options when they encounter bad leagues.
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You are correct. When someone quits, what if the league decides to report the person/team to the USBC? In spite, maybe right, maybe wrong. Seems like the league/officers hold all the cards and the bowlers do not.
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The bowlers / teams have to have rights. A sloppy center, poorly run league should be enough cause for a team to leave. Why should a bowler pay week in and week out when the center is dirty, poor lane conditions from week to week and on top of that a league that is run like crap? As it is I leave work early to get there so not only do I lose money from work, I have to bowl in a place and in a league that are not run well at all. This center is on it 3rd or 4th manager since September...That alone says something about the house.
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If the league officers hold all the cards it is because they were given to them. The officers are up for election at the start of each season. I was league president for three league session a in a row. First time I volunteered because the previous officers did a poor job. I got things running well. Then I was the defacto choice for league officer. No one ever volunteers for the job, because 90% of the time is dealing with the 5% of complainers in the league. The other 10% is just reminding everyone what needs to be done and when and also auditing the bank balance for the league every month. It isn't hard and doesn't take more than an extra 20 to 30 minutes a week at the busy times. If you aren't happy with the officers then find and elect someone who will do the job.
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Unless the O.P. (or anyone else) puts this to the test and withdraws from the league the point is moot.
As far as the rules go, if you withdraw from a league properly, then your entitled to your share of the prize money you earned.
If the league rejects your "sufficient reason" Then you either stay or leave anyway.
If you don't get your prize money or they try to pull your card . Then you follow the USBC protest procedures and protest it. Then live with the out come.