Post by: BrunsMike on January 16, 2007, 12:10:25 PM
A Case For Change.
By Brian Voss
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I recently started a thread in the PBA.com forum about the need for change in the sport of bowling. The topic generated quite a bit of interest from other forum members, so I thought it might be a good idea to write my first column for this series about the topic of changing the sport.
In my PBA.com thread, I focused primarily on changes that I believe could help revitalize the competitive aspect of the sport (versus the recreational side), but for this column I'd like to widen the scope of that a bit. Before going into my argument, I'd like to ask that you consider my perspective as a player who has dedicated 25 years of his life to pursuing excellence on the bowling lanes and trying to help promote the sport not only here in the United States, but throughout the world. I would, of course, love for things to change for the better in the sport because it ultimately benefits me, but more importantly, given where I am in the context of my competitive career, more so for future generations of people interested in pursuing bowling as a competitive outlet or as a business career.
First off, let me start by saying that it is abundantly obvious that nearly every indicator of healthiness in the industry is on a trend of decline in the U.S. League bowling membership is down over 70% from its heyday back in the late 1970's. The number of certified bowling centers has decreased over 25% during the same period. Profit margins for bowling equipment manufacturers are decreasing and the equipment market is stagnant. Tournament participation is down at the local level and PBA prize funds are about the same as they were back in the 1980's, without even adjusting for inflation. But at least the men have a Tour. The ladies' Tour has been defunct for a few years now.
Yet to blame any one group of people or any specific industry organization for all of these problems, which has been the approach I've seen in public and private forums for as long as I can remember, is a really myopic view of how I feel we need to change. We've also heard all of the pleas for the industry to "work together" and become a unified force that can conquer these problems as one. That would be nice, but I don't feel that all of the different groups in the industry with all of their divergent goals and objectives are necessarily the end all be all answer either (besides also being an overly idealistic notion).
Instead, it's really the responsibility of everyone in the industry to redefine what we want to see the industry become and then make those changes a reality. Right now, I'm not sure I've heard any particular individual or group lay out what that vision might be for the future for the rest of us to follow. To me, the most obvious goal for all of us is to stop the declines and get the trends moving in a positive direction. Every person, group and company in the industry needs to look at the particular trends most relevant to themselves and figure out a logical plan for how to turn them around. Once they have success, it will inspire everyone around them, including their competitors and groups in other areas of the sport, to change for the better.
That's really the main reason I'm with Elite Bowling now. I see it is an opportunity for me to help change things for the better in the industry. Everything I have in my life I owe to the sport of bowling, and at this point in my career it is time for me to do everything I can to ensure that the next generation of bowlers has it better than I did. Hopefully, before I'm through, I can be one of those individuals who will help inspire others to make this sport great once again.
Brian Voss
If you would like to keep up with Brian and his quest to make our game great once again log onto www.elitebowling.com for the latest updates.
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Mike Zadler
Using the best brand in the nation, BRUNSWICK!!!
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?ms=12886&mp=552&s=2005-2006
Winter season averages at Sunset Lanes in Waukegan IL.
Wed. Nite Ave: 198
Thur. Nite Ave: 218
http://www.BrunsNick.com
Post by: DP3 on January 16, 2007, 08:45:24 PM
Very nice.
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Experience, Shot Making, Wise Decisions......The best arsenal.
Post by: hhsbowler on January 16, 2007, 08:46:13 PM
Post by: qstick777 on January 16, 2007, 10:16:20 PM
Enough of the complaining and giving all of us the same numbers that we've already heard before. 70% this and 25% that.
Stop complaining and start making recommendations on how to fix it. If you can't give us any way to fix the problems, then please stop complaining. If it really is that bad, feel free to stop bowling and get a 9 to 5, 40+ hour per week job like most of America!
This is coming from somebody that is able to make a living by bowling. Not saying he is breaking the bank, but still he is making a living. No doubt he is one of the greats.
How many of us would love to be able to make a living by bowling?
BV by the numbers (http://www.pba.com/players/singlebio03.asp?ID=9680):
2005-06 season earnings of $91,120.
24th season on Tour.
All-time PBA career money $2,307,722
He's averaging almost $100k per year. Sure he's had some bad years, but most of those years look like he didn't even bowl the entire season.
He made $49,320 in 1983......how many of you made that much money in 1983?
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Best post ever:http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5
Search Ballreviews entire database here: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
Post by: chitown on January 16, 2007, 10:31:30 PM
If there was a prize fund of 200,000 grand per tourney then you would see a lot of young players taking this game very serious! This would also bring TV ratings up.
One thing the PBA should do is change the day of the TV finals. Sunday is a horrible day to do this. Sat would be a lot better. You wouldn't have to compete with the NFL.
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GO BEARS! Super Bowl bound!
Post by: wasted talent on January 16, 2007, 10:33:22 PM
Post by: BrunsMike on January 16, 2007, 10:36:49 PM
Quote
Again we get another "rant" from Mr. Voss telling us that bowling is in a state of decline, a "state of emergency," etc.
Enough of the complaining and giving all of us the same numbers that we've already heard before. 70% this and 25% that.
Stop complaining and start making recommendations on how to fix it. If you can't give us any way to fix the problems, then please stop complaining. If it really is that bad, feel free to stop bowling and get a 9 to 5, 40+ hour per week job like most of America!
quote]
This is 1 of several articals that will be released from Mr. Voss. The future articals will have several different suggestions on how we can try to improve the current state of this very sport we all know and love. Dont be harsh on him for not trying because he is.
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Mike Zadler
Using the best brand in the nation, BRUNSWICK!!!
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?ms=12886&mp=552&s=2005-2006
Winter season averages at Sunset Lanes in Waukegan IL.
Wed. Nite Ave: 198
Thur. Nite Ave: 218
http://www.BrunsNick.com
Post by: DP3 on January 16, 2007, 10:59:43 PM
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Experience, Shot Making, Wise Decisions......The best arsenal.
Post by: BallDriller on January 17, 2007, 12:50:06 AM
I feel Brian is stuck between a rock and a hard place. He wants things to change but in order to be competitive he needs to use the cheater balls to do so.
I say give it some time and lets see what happens. I think Elite is making adjustments just like any other start up company. While I don't agree on their $300 price point they did lower the price of the PBA balls.
Post by: pate08 on January 17, 2007, 01:47:57 AM
quote:
i too find it ironic that Voss is saying these things when he has signed with elite. and yes the prices of the elite balls are outragous. what i find to be the oddest thing is that ,in an article in our local bowling newsletter down here in central Texas, Voss was proposing that the USBC should make stricter legalities as far as the bowling balls that are produced. He even suggested that all companies go back to a pancake core and a basic urethane coverstock. First off, nothing but urethane balls would never go over and second this is coming from a guy who, once again, is sponsored by Elite Bowling who produced balls that (supposidly) strike on every PBA pattern. The Elite PBA balls are total BS because they are suggesting that each ball is perfect on each pattern no matter what the situation is or who is throwing them. Now i will give him credit because he got it done back in the day of U Dots and Yellow Dots but if you were to hand both him and Wes Malott a U Dot and have them bowl on the Shark pattern Voss wouldn't even have a chance. I guarantee that if you ask Norm Duke if he would go back to U Dots or Blue Hammers instead of any one of the high end balls now days he would simply reply by saying,"Are you serious?" you could ask any of the guys that have been on tour that long.
i find it funny that the PBA prize fund has been cut even with the addition of Columbia and Etonic sponsorships. if i'm gonna get sick of seeing Chris Barnes or some shoes in a commercial than i wanna do it knowing that my friends on tour are bowling for real money!!!! as far as the decline of the sport goes, a very large factor in this arguement is the prices of open play. the recreational bowlers are not going to become dedicated league bowlers if they have to pay 25-30 bucks to bowl 3 games and practice to get better. (and that's being reasonable). the bowling center owners will say that prices must go up or else there is no profit being made. more BS, all of that "profit" is going towards the extra crapola that you have in the building; excessive arcade games, redemption games and prizes, and those "Entertainment Centers" with mini golf, go-carts,lazer tag and all of that stuff in the same place. of course you have to raise the prices of bowling when you have to pay the expenses of all that other useless stuff! it needs to go back to just bowling. yes, i can see a few arcade games and vending machines, but nothing outragous. if we can go back to an actual "bowling alley" then we can lower our open play rates,make plenty of money, attract more people to the sport-which goes hand in hand with selling more equipment in our proshops...gotta show my fellow proshop guys some love
but hey, maybe that's just me?
Zach
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The ProStop, Round Rock TX
They say everything's bigger in Texas..."Big B"! Brunswick Baby!
-Brunswick Scorchin Inferno
-Brunswick Inferno(5-Gotta save em!)
-Brunswick Absolute Inferno(2)
-Brunswick (Special)Absolute Inferno
-Brunswick Vapor Zone
-Brunswick Strike Zone
-Brunswick Zone Classic Red Pin
-Brunswick Impulse Zone
-Brunswick BVP Punisher
-Brunswick Monster SlayR
.....-Legends World Class Particle............wait, how did that get in there????
Amen. Preach on preacher man
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Black Widow
Roto Grip Mercury
Absolute Inferno
Infinite One
Action - 2
Radical Inferno
AMF Victory SPT
NuLine Virus
University of Texas spare ball
Track Crunch Time - retired
High Game - 286
High Series - 748
Post by: hskrntx on January 17, 2007, 06:10:06 AM
The answer, in my opinion is to change the required oil patterns to compensate for the balls (like in SPORT bowling) and find out just how tough the game really should be. Sure, we'll lose a bunch of bowlers who can't average duece anymore, but the REAL bowlers will return from the golf courses and such!
I know, because I'm getting bored with the game! I took the entire summer off, I bowl only once a week in league, and I'm averaging 220+! And I'm the first to say I'm not THAT good of a bowler! Make it tougher, make me work for it, and I'd appreciate it a LOT more, and I'd be back practicing, and joining more leagues!
Just MHO!
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Semper Fi! AMForce Rocks!
www.burnlounge.com/hskrntx - for all of your digital download needs!
Edited on 1/17/2007 7:09 AM
Post by: mrteach3 on January 17, 2007, 07:07:52 AM
Then others have talked about the lanes being so easy in house conditions. I would have to agree with this one in most occasions. However, you can't have one go on without the other changing as well. I truly believe that you would still see higher scores with older equipment on house shots with urethane or even plastic. Yes, I know, they may not be as high as right now, but I just don't believe they would change as significantly as some might think. Just my opinion based on some experimenting that I have done with some friends. Now, if you changed the lane condition(not talking about as tough as PBA conditions), along with the equipment, then you have scores decrease and make it more "honest" as many have called for.
It seems as though many think this is the answer to "save" bowling. In my honest opinion, this actually will do the opposite. It would kill bowling even more than now. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard in my pro shop that the lanes were so hard tonight. They always continue with the proverbial, "If it stays like this, I won't be bowling next year." There are a lot more people like this than there are people like most of us who would like to see the scoring pace reduced. Face it people, the majority of bowlers out there want to see their scores high. Last night in my league, the lanes were very dry for what we are used to having in league. The difference here is that they pair was filled with "better" bowlers. Each and every one of us welcomed the challenge as we had to play parts of the lane we were not used to playing. That was on our pair. On the two pairs left and right of us, there was nothing but complaining going on.
Now, after that long explanation, I wish I really knew they answer to "save" bowling. I truly don't have that answer. I don't know if anyone does. The one thing I will say is that I think we do need to look to the younger generation. Many don't like to look there, but in the near future we will need them as we lose more and more bowlers for whatever reason.
P.S. I would like to comment on Mr. Voss' post, I just don't have the time to do so. I need to do some work.
Besides that, I am not really sure what to believe from him as of late. --------------------
Who needs a 300 or 800, when I have a 294 and a 295!?!?!
Edited on 1/17/2007 8:25 AM
Post by: BC60 on January 17, 2007, 07:12:35 AM
Seems like the bowling alleys and ball manufacturers are caught in a never ending battle where the ball manufacturers create 1 hook monster after another. The houses combat that by putting down more oil. Then the ball manufacturers go back to the drawing board and create another ball that will outhook the last ball they made. The bowlers look to the ball manufacturers so that they can buy the latest "hook in a box" to combat the oil without having to really "learn" how to bowl in the oil. Perhaps one solution might be for the houses band together and to put down "less oil" all the time. This might force the ball manufacturers to give up creating the big hook monsters because there is no need for them. Bowlers would need balls that hook less and would go back to the simplier pancake cores and less hooking balls such as rubber/plastic and maybe urethanes. Instead of the grip it and rip it style, the bowlers would be more likely to learn control the hook instead of just cranking it to the max.
Whaddya think?
Post by: se7en on January 17, 2007, 08:42:43 AM
Focus needs to be on stealing the market share of recreation. Competitive bowlers are bred from recreation. They don't just appear.. He seems to want to separate the two groups and focus on fixing competitive bowling.
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Cobalt Bomb Solid
Cobalt Bomb Pearl
Tsunami H2O
F.O.S.
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 17, 2007, 08:52:07 AM
quote:
Focus needs to be on stealing the market share of recreation. Competitive bowlers are bred from recreation. They don't just appear.. He seems to want to separate the two groups and focus on fixing competitive bowling.
This is true.
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Lane 1 baby. Lane 1 baby. Lane 1 is on the rise and here we come baby!
Post by: novawagonmaster on January 17, 2007, 08:54:42 AM
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Jon (in Ohio)
CHROME WON'T GET YOU HOME!
F.O.S. Proud Saw user...see profile.
Post by: qstick777 on January 17, 2007, 10:04:11 AM
quote:
Oh, sure, they SAY they care, that's why we all have the THS that allows anyone with a fairly decent ball to average 200+ now! But those scores are NOT real! So bowlers get bored with the game and move on to something else!
I know, because I'm getting bored with the game! I took the entire summer off, I bowl only once a week in league, and I'm averaging 220+! And I'm the first to say I'm not THAT good of a bowler! Make it tougher, make me work for it, and I'd appreciate it a LOT more, and I'd be back practicing, and joining more leagues!
I want everybody to remember this, because I'm tired of people coming on here and crying that they showed up to leagues on a position round and the center changed the shot on them, or that they can't get a consistent shot from their league!
I've only been bowling since 2003 and am finally starting to average in the 170's. I do not find it "easy," but I love the game and I love the challenge.
As far as the balls "killing" the game - don't agree. Check my profile. I've tried plenty of balls. Not a single one will find the pocket unless I execute the proper shot for the given condition. There is no "magic" ball that will strike every time.
Maybe I don't ball in easy houses? I don't know. I believe we've had 2 300's this year during my league, and maybe 5 for the entire center - they are packed every night of the week with leagues.
To those people that don't enjoy the game anymore, or think it's too easy - why do you continue to bowl? Find something else to do. Is it an ego thing? Do you like being better than the rest of the bowlers? There is a reason that there are not more "Sports" leagues around - a good portion of "league bowlers" aka "recreational" bowlers don't like the 20+ pin decrease in their averages.
There are plenty of bowlers that struggle with today's conditions. Not everybody can "grip it and rip it." Not everybody can spray the lane with their 18+ mph shots and 350+ revs and still make the pocket. I'd say that half of these "hot shots" would stop bowling if faced with tougher conditions - it would kill their ego.
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Best post ever:http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5
Search Ballreviews entire database here: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
Post by: nospareball on January 17, 2007, 10:27:16 AM
quote:
How about this as a first step?
Seems like the bowling alleys and ball manufacturers are caught in a never ending battle where the ball manufacturers create 1 hook monster after another. The houses combat that by putting down more oil. Then the ball manufacturers go back to the drawing board and create another ball that will outhook the last ball they made. The bowlers look to the ball manufacturers so that they can buy the latest "hook in a box" to combat the oil without having to really "learn" how to bowl in the oil. Perhaps one solution might be for the houses band together and to put down "less oil" all the time. This might force the ball manufacturers to give up creating the big hook monsters because there is no need for them. Bowlers would need balls that hook less and would go back to the simplier pancake cores and less hooking balls such as rubber/plastic and maybe urethanes. Instead of the grip it and rip it style, the bowlers would be more likely to learn control the hook instead of just cranking it to the max.
Whaddya think?
I don't know about you, but I haven't seen any increase in oil over the past 10 years at my house. I'm sure the oil has changed, but I doubt the centers are being proactive to changes in technology.
I know there would be a few guys that would go back to urethanes if less oil was put out, but for the most part less oil=more hook. And the guys who were playing down and in are now hooking the lane with their top of the line balls and loving it.
You really can't please everyone, bowlers are too diverse. Put out a hard condition, and you alienate the recreational league bowler. Put out an easy condition and the competitive league bowler gets angry that the fluffers carry everything.
Like I've said before, bowling is just in a state of natural decline. We could try to prop it up by making all of these crazy changes, or just accept the fact that it's just not as popular as it once was. The only way to save it is organically, high school and college programs. Get the kids bowling, and USBC membership will increase over time. Change the time slot of PBA broadcasts on TV, perhaps a Saturday afternoon slot, or even primetime during the week. Hell, make a reality tv show! It worked for the UFC
Post by: MAJM on January 17, 2007, 10:46:50 AM
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Boston Celtics
New England Patriots
Boston Red Sox
Boston Bruins
Post by: MAJM on January 17, 2007, 11:00:09 AM
quote:
Change the time slot of PBA broadcasts on TV, perhaps a Saturday afternoon slot, or even primetime during the week. Hell, make a reality tv show! It worked for the UFC
The PBA is in bed with ESPN as far as when the shows will be on TV. The PBA is up against the NFL on Sunday because this is really the only slot ESPN will give them. It's a cheap slot and doesn't provide much competition with the NFL viewership. ESPN pissed of the NFL with the football series they had and look at the options the NFL gave ESPN, take away the football series or we take away football. The Saturday afternoon slot is PRIME TV for the weekend. Do you think that ANY network is going to give up college football, or college basketball, or golf which all get high ratings for bowling?
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Boston Celtics
New England Patriots
Boston Red Sox
Boston Bruins
Post by: EboKnight on January 17, 2007, 11:16:42 AM
quote:
When you said a bowling ball should cost no more than $100 I stopped reading right there and that pretty much ruins all validity of your post. That's the real problem with the industry. There's no money in it. This guy thinks no ball should cost over $100. Tell this to the hundreds of people in R&D, sales, and manufacturing for every respective company, then tell that to your pro shop guy who is fitting and drilling you, that they should be able to make a respectable living for themselves with no ball costing over $100.
Very nice.
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Experience, Shot Making, Wise Decisions......The best arsenal.
I would agree with DP3 on this one. msgstartrak gave a great thread. but the reality is that 100.00 dollars for a ball is nothing now a day. some Pro Shops charge 100 bucks for a White Dot drilled with inserts and thats plastic.
Vary good wirte up tho!
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Good Luck & Good Bowling
Email me at: PreciseMatt@hotmail.com
website: www.PrecisionProShop.com
Jimmy Keeth in da House!!!
5/5/67 - 11/30/05
Post by: DerHornen on January 17, 2007, 12:08:03 PM
The only thing I see Elite doing is putting out run-of-the-mill equipment for a super-premium price.
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Quote of the Year: LaDainian Tomlinson
"Football players want to be basketball players, and baseball players want to play golf. And golfers want to be rock stars and rock stars want to sit in the Monday night ESPN booth and obliterate all commentary regarding the action on the field."
Post by: Rantings on January 17, 2007, 12:14:57 PM
We are a more affluent society than back in the bowling boom. More choices than we use to have and bowling went to the back burner. Health concerns over secondhand smoke also came up and while many cities and/or states are dealing with this issue it happened too late for bowling and its reputation suffered with the yuppies. Just look at ESPN's view of bowling. Probably much more things could be added.
I would suggest that the game and its changes in ball equipment or the bowling industry as a whole had little to do with the decline. The proprietors that are doing good tend, I say tend, are the ones who put back into the sport with new equipment and lanes and that does help.
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Bowling is for sissies..ask Bones...
Post by: jls on January 17, 2007, 12:23:47 PM
i don't think b. voss will get to much support from pro shops while representing them. kinda like when fuzzy worked for k mart.
from what i know about them, they are made by brunswick.
but unlike brunswick or columbia or storm, etc. you generally can only buy then at one online dealer " private label"
does not make them bad!!!!!!, just a private label.
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jls31316
Post by: triggerman on January 17, 2007, 12:40:13 PM
quote:
There's just too many things people can do with their free time in this day and age compared to 1970 to bring back the numbers bowling has seen in the past. Good luck fixing something that isn't really broken.
Focus needs to be on stealing the market share of recreation. Competitive bowlers are bred from recreation. They don't just appear.. He seems to want to separate the two groups and focus on fixing competitive bowling.
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Cobalt Bomb Solid
Cobalt Bomb Pearl
Tsunami H2O
F.O.S.
you are all missing the simple answer to this simple problem. (see above) in order to compete with a shrinking market, one must be agressive and go after that market, owners/managers sitting on their behinds waiting for people to come bowl leagues will always always always fail. I bowl in several houses in the northern indiana area, they are all busy, 5 nights a week, with leagues, why? cause the ownership trys to fill those leagues, they talk to people, garner interest. place a lot of effort on youth leagues (the bowlers of tomorrow) by increasing at this level, participation increases at the next level and the next level. snowball effect. Mr. Voss is concerned that the PBA will be gone in a few years, which it will if they dont do sometihng, PBA has some simple fixes too, get back to the way it was, open those entrys up, allow more to try their hand, if you got 300 entries, dang it half should make the first cut, go to match play, round robin style instead of this crap they have, the cream will always rise, the only way to secure the pba is to garner interest, that interest has to come for league bowlers, and league bowlers are going to come out of the recreation/youth programs. Dont care that there is more choices, bowling can be the fun choice if marketed right
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www.bowlingballexchange.com
Made member of the Lane #1 Mafia
Post by: leftehh- LG on January 17, 2007, 12:44:25 PM
quote:
There's just too many things people can do with their free time in this day and age compared to 1970 to bring back the numbers bowling has seen in the past. Good luck fixing something that isn't really broken.
Focus needs to be on stealing the market share of recreation. Competitive bowlers are bred from recreation. They don't just appear.. He seems to want to separate the two groups and focus on fixing competitive bowling.
--------------------
Cobalt Bomb Solid
Cobalt Bomb Pearl
Tsunami H2O
F.O.S.
I agree, I don't think bowling is "broken", but it needs to be marketed better. and for all the people who say we need to go back to urethane or plastic with pancakes core..shut up, no we don't, thats not the problem, end of story. I don't know the answer to make bowling more of a sport than recreational, but if we dont then bowling will stay where it is. and if it keeps going on like this, the tour will fall.
Bowling needs to be invested with new ideas and strategies to get average people interested in the game. It needs to be exposed more towards youth so kids can look at it and say "man I wish I could do that someday". I liked what gary did for teen masters by having the finals televised. I think if we could get more exposure towards that way, we might get off to a start somewhere. Just my suggestions though.
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Bowl to Win!
Edited on 1/17/2007 1:48 PM
Post by: se7en on January 17, 2007, 02:26:08 PM
quote:quote:
There's just too many things people can do with their free time in this day and age compared to 1970 to bring back the numbers bowling has seen in the past. Good luck fixing something that isn't really broken.
Focus needs to be on stealing the market share of recreation. Competitive bowlers are bred from recreation. They don't just appear.. He seems to want to separate the two groups and focus on fixing competitive bowling.
--------------------
Cobalt Bomb Solid
Cobalt Bomb Pearl
Tsunami H2O
F.O.S.
you are all missing the simple answer to this simple problem. (see above) in order to compete with a shrinking market, one must be agressive and go after that market, owners/managers sitting on their behinds waiting for people to come bowl leagues will always always always fail. I bowl in several houses in the northern indiana area, they are all busy, 5 nights a week, with leagues, why? cause the ownership trys to fill those leagues, they talk to people, garner interest. place a lot of effort on youth leagues (the bowlers of tomorrow) by increasing at this level, participation increases at the next level and the next level. snowball effect. Mr. Voss is concerned that the PBA will be gone in a few years, which it will if they dont do sometihng, PBA has some simple fixes too, get back to the way it was, open those entrys up, allow more to try their hand, if you got 300 entries, dang it half should make the first cut, go to match play, round robin style instead of this crap they have, the cream will always rise, the only way to secure the pba is to garner interest, that interest has to come for league bowlers, and league bowlers are going to come out of the recreation/youth programs. Dont care that there is more choices, bowling can be the fun choice if marketed right
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Made member of the Lane #1 Mafia
Which would bring me to my second point..
The PBA does need to drop the exempt field and open it to anyone that can get a card.
Secondly, and more importantly, they need to push the new PBA experience as hard as possible to get people exposed to those conditions as early as possible. Maybe even mandate it. All sanctioned leagues by the USBC are PBA compliant, all leagues that choose to stick to the THS wont be recognized and the only difference that will exist is recognition of honor scores. Twofold: now honor scores mean something..
I bet you there are a lot of talented people out there who could compete in the PBA, but lack confidence and experience and would end up playing 'catch up' to the pro's who've been doing it for a long time and ultimately get discouraged because they feel they were swimming upstream permanently. Had they been playing those conditions unprofessionally for a while, they would enter competition already in-stride.
--------------------
Cobalt Bomb Solid
Cobalt Bomb Pearl
Tsunami H2O
F.O.S.
Post by: EboKnight on January 17, 2007, 02:54:34 PM
quote:
Why are you people so harsh to Brian? He is speaking the truth about the state of our industry. We don't really know what Elite is up to so how can you comment on that?
I feel Brian is stuck between a rock and a hard place. He wants things to change but in order to be competitive he needs to use the cheater balls to do so.
I say give it some time and lets see what happens. I think Elite is making adjustments just like any other start up company. While I don't agree on their $300 price point they did lower the price of the PBA balls.
They lowered the price because nobody wants them...
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Good Luck & Good Bowling
Email me at: PreciseMatt@hotmail.com
website: www.PrecisionProShop.com
Jimmy Keeth in da House!!!
5/5/67 - 11/30/05
Post by: REVerse on January 19, 2007, 08:54:39 PM
quote:
You are all missing the simple answer to this simple problem. In order to compete with a shrinking market, one must be agressive and go after that market, owners/managers sitting on their behinds waiting for people to come bowl leagues will always always always fail. I bowl in several houses in the northern Indiana area, they are all busy, 5 nights a week, with leagues, why? Because the ownership tries to fill those leagues, they talk to people, garner interest. Place a lot of effort on youth leagues (the bowlers of tomorrow) by increasing at this level, participation increases at the next level and the next level. Snowball effect. Mr. Voss is concerned that the PBA will be gone in a few years, which it will if they dont do sometihng, PBA has some simple fixes too, get back to the way it was, open those entries up, allow more to try their hand, if you got 300 entries, dang it half should make the first cut, go to match play, round robin style instead of this crap they have, the cream will always rise, the only way to secure the pba is to garner interest, that interest has to come for league bowlers, and league bowlers are going to come out of the recreation/youth programs. Dont care that there is more choices, bowling can be the fun choice if marketed right.
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Made member of the Lane #1 Mafia
Bravo!! Very well spoken!!
There are two centers here in western NC (AMF-40 & Private owned-42 lanes) that are always busy. Many times open bowlers wait on a lane to be vacated before they can bowl. Leagues are not on a decline in this area. A brand new center was just built last year about 20 miles from here.
The PBA may be in trouble. This thread has mentioned a few good repairs/fixes.
IMHO -The PBAs way of doing things is WAY outdated. They need to re-write the whole book in order to survive.
--------------------
Ray
Beer and Brunswick. It doesn't get any better.
Post by: nd300 on January 19, 2007, 09:28:43 PM
How many WOMEN'S leagues are in your area versus what they were five or ten years ago????I'll bet less.Why????Women are now career oriented instead of staying home.
Kids and teens have MANY more choices for entertainment than they did during bowling's heyday.Playstation,Wii,cell phones,DVD players,desk tops,etc.Hence,fewer future bowlers.
The other things that have been mentioned are right on the head.Ball cost,league cost,open play cost,time commitment,etc,etc are all reasons that people are staying away.
--------------------
Chris
Lane#1--nothing else hits like 'em.
Post by: BrunsMike on January 19, 2007, 09:56:04 PM
Again, thank you.
--------------------
Mike Zadler
Using the best brand in the nation, BRUNSWICK!!!
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?ms=12886&mp=552&s=2005-2006
Winter season averages at Sunset Lanes in Waukegan IL.
Wed. Nite Ave: 197
Thur. Nite Ave: 217
http://www.BrunsNick.com
Post by: JessN16 on January 20, 2007, 12:44:29 AM
I've actually done recruitment programs for bowling leagues. I have never -- not once -- had someone tell me "I won't bowl because scores are too high."
The reasons people are getting out of leagues, as it's been communicated directly to me, are: Disposable income, too many demands on their time, don't want to be away from (non-bowlers in) the family, and the big one -- other entertainment choices. The next most popular excuses concern the condition of the bowling center and the attitudes of its management. Also, as we've lost blue-collar manufacturing jobs overseas, our recruiting pool has shrunk.
The standard ball, as best I can tell, is an idea hatched by the pros not to save bowling, but because there are panties in a collective wad over the fact an amateur can buy hook in a box.
The PBA itself is in trouble. Bowling as a league sport may be, for reasons that have zero to do with a ball. Recreational bowling is doing fine.
The uncomfortable truth for all of us -- from Brian Voss on down -- is that we may be headed for niche sport status, and there may come a day soon when we're not able to go into just any bowling center and expect to have a league available to bowl on at any given time during the week.
Person-to-person recruiting of other bowlers is time-consuming, tiring work, but given the choice between that, or telling three-fourths of your diehard league bowlers that their arsenal was declared illegal overnight, I'll take the recruiting.
Jess
Edited on 1/20/2007 1:45 AM
Post by: trash heap on January 20, 2007, 10:39:30 AM
Yes its exciting and in the short term draws in viewers but let's face it in long run it does the damage!
Look at some of these stats from PBA:
PERFECT GAMES ON NATIONAL TV (Look how many are in the 90s)
(17)
Jack Biondolillo vs. Les Schissler, 216 (Akron, OH, April 1, 1967);
John Guenther vs. Don Johnson, 189 (San Jose, CA, Feb. 1, 1969);
Jim Stefanich vs. Glenn Carlson, 243 (Alameda, CA, Jan. 5, 1974);
Pete McCordic vs. Wayne Webb, 249 (Torrance, CA, Jan. 31, 1987);
@Bob Benoit vs. Mark Roth, 255 (Grand Prairie, TX, Jan. 23, 1988);
@Mike Aulby vs. David Ozio, 279 (Wichita, KS, July 31, 1993);
Johnny Petraglia vs. Walter Ray Williams Jr., 194 (Toledo, OH, March 5, 1994);
Butch Soper vs. Bob Benoit, 236 (Reno, NV, July 12, 1994);
C.K. Moore vs. Parker Bohn III, 192 (Austin, TX, Feb. 2, 1996);
Bob Learn Jr. vs. Johnny Petraglia, 279 (Erie, PA, April 6, 1996);
Steve Hoskins vs. Walter Ray Williams Jr., 234 (Rochester, NY, Oct. 15, 1997);
Parker Bohn III vs. Chris Sand, 246, and Mike Mullin, 191 (Reno, NV, May 9, 1998);
Steve Jaros vs. Ricky Ward, 200 (Chattanooga, TN, Feb. 13, 1999);
Mike Miller vs. Danny Wiseman, 266, and Tim Criss, 224 (Reno, NV, June 20, 1999);
Norm Duke vs. Walter Ray Williams Jr., 213 (Tacoma, WA, Jan. 5, 2003);
Mika Koivuniemi vs. Jason Couch, 248 (Windsor Locks, CT, Dec. 7, 2003);
Tony Reyes vs. Parker Bohn III, 215 (Taylor, MI, Nov. 5, 2006)
@ - 300 game in title match.
*******************************************************************************
HIGHEST SINGLE MATCH ON NATIONAL TV
579, Mike Aulby, 300; David Ozio, 279 (Wichita, KS, 1993);
Bob Learn Jr., 300; Johnny Petraglia, 279 (Erie, PA, 1996)
LOWEST SCORE ON NATIONAL TV
129, Steve Jaros (Lake Zurich, IL, 1992)
HIGHEST LOSING SCORE ON NATIONAL TV
280, Norm Duke (Peoria, IL, 1994)
TWO-GAME HIGH ON NATIONAL TV
570 (300, 270), Bob Learn Jr. (Erie, PA, 1996)
THREE-GAME HIGH ON NATIONAL TV
850 (300, 270, 280), Bob Learn Jr. (Erie, PA, 1996)
FOUR-GAME HIGH ON NATIONAL TV
1,129 (300, 270, 280, 279) Bob Learn Jr. (Erie, PA, 1996)
HIGHEST AVERAGE FINALS ON NATIONAL TV
276.50, averaged by five bowlers in four matches (Erie, PA, 1996)
MOST 300s IN TOURNAMENT (Individual)
4, Walter Ray Williams Jr. (Mechanicsburg, PA, 1993);
Dave D’Entremont (Peoria, IL, 1995);
John Bauerle Jr. (Erie, PA, 1999)
MOST 300s IN TOURNAMENT (Aggregate)
24, Peoria, IL (1995)
MOST 300s ON PBA TOUR IN ONE SEASON (Aggregate)
210 (1993)
MOST 300s IN ONE SEASON (Individual)
8, Kelly Coffman (1994);
Dave D’Entremont (1995);
Eric Forkel (1995);
Steve Hoskins (1998);
Parker Bohn III (1999)
You can only ride the wave for so long before it crashes.
Edited on 1/20/2007 11:50 AM
Post by: JessN16 on January 20, 2007, 12:01:00 PM
There's a reason that the big band swing music my parents grew up on isn't still played on pop radio today, and it has nothing to do with the quality of trumpet players.
People's tastes change. You couldn't have made 20 cents televising kids riding around parking lots on BMX bikes 30 years ago, but now the X-Games make money hand over fist.
When we figure out the best way to market our sport, we may not fix it but we may at least ensure its continued survival in some form or another. The standard ball has zero bearing on that.
Jess
Post by: trash heap on January 20, 2007, 04:13:38 PM
Bowling has it place. Bowling isn't a sport that was invented 50 to 60 years ago. This sport has stood the test of time. Its not some FAD or the signature of generation. Many generations have played this game. It is a great game!!
I know plenty of young people that love to bowl. I have approached many an asked them if they would like to join a league or sub. Most are interested. The problem is getting to these individuals. In the past there was no need to recruit. High School competition could be the ticket!
Bowlers are not identified with one thing! The X-Games target a younger crowd, easier to sell to advertisers if they know their targeting audience. Bowlers are not so easy. They are all ranges of age and all types of income. I wouldn't be surprised if PBA telecasts has higher ratings than other sports.
Post by: BrunsMike on January 20, 2007, 04:51:25 PM
quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if PBA telecasts has higher ratings than other sports.
The fact there is, the PBA Telecasts are ranked very low on the ratings because of their general viewing population. I don't know how true this is but, I heard that a rerun of simpsons had better ratings then a Live PBA Telecast.
--------------------
Mike Zadler
Using the best brand in the nation, BRUNSWICK!!!
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?ms=12886&mp=552&s=2005-2006
Winter season averages at Sunset Lanes in Waukegan IL.
Wed. Nite Ave: 197
Thur. Nite Ave: 217
http://www.BrunsNick.com
Post by: trash heap on January 20, 2007, 05:49:28 PM
Post by: pin-chaser on January 20, 2007, 09:04:42 PM
I did bowl competitively in the hey day of the 70's when nearly 10M bowlers existed. Bowling was the thing to do. Double shifts, wall to wall, mourining leagues and afternoon school sessions. Just oiling in the afternoon was a pain having to oil through a full house of open play.
And YES, the lanes were walled then... 10-10 top hat. Averages were about 20 pins less... the good guys were in the upper 220's lower 230's using yellow dots. There was 5-10 300 games in our scratch league every year even a couple 800's (actually 1100 for 4 games).
I experienced it and it is SAD that bowling has become what it is. I agree with alot of what is said here: ie... all bowling centers back then had a couple full time co-ordinators to solicite potential bowlers to fill the house, cleanliness and courteousy was the delivered nearly everywhere while pricing was fair to the public. The difference is the centers catered to all bowlers where as today centers do virtually nothing except raise price which does not create a value to the consumer.
But to ignor the fact that the scoring pace is a problem is plain and simply ignoring one problem. And despite what you read here in this thread, I personally know of 5 bowlers that have quit because of the scoring pace being a joke and I was another one for the last two seasons. So while bowlers are not quitting at a pace that is alarming to those posting here does not mean it is not significant. But there is another side to the issue of the scoring pace... it is demoralizing to the point that bowling 300's are a joke... people laugh at those who do it. We all have seen it. Achieving perfection by shooting 300 and you get no congratulations and worse get laughed at. This can not be good for the game. If 300 are too easy to shoot, then we have paced the scoring pace too high. I should be honored and respected by all.
To the guy who stated that bowling is an established sport, it has been an organized sport since before the year 1900... which makes it over 100 years. And yet, every record has been shot in the last 10 years... with much fewer bowlers who bowl once a week instead of practing and bowling several leagues in several houses. (I perosnally blame point money as a contributor to the reduction in bowler bowling multipul leagues since you pay over the amount every week to get something back in the end. I know I would bowl more leagues per week if they were not 20.00 or more each and there is nothing wrong with the concept of paying the top 3 in each catagory).
The bottom line is that we (the bowling community) should seak out all the knowledge and experience that we can to fix bowling to restore and guarnetee it's survial. And the vast majority of that experience comes from those who have been around the longest. Brian Voss has commited himself to doing what he can which includes teaching the bowling community. Sometimes listening and trying to understand is harder than expressing points of view with less experince. While I may not agree with all of which Brian may be saying, at least he is saying and doing something over than just talking words.
Finally, if you think Brian Voss is a lone voice in the wind, look at the foundation 300 organization (who has been proclaiming similar points of view for decades and doing thins differently) and listen to the phantomradioshow which has had 100's of guests over the years that are saying the same things. We all should do more listening and learning.
--------------------
Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365
Post by: JessN16 on January 21, 2007, 06:49:14 PM
quote:
So why is bowling becoming popular in High School?
Bowling has it place. Bowling isn't a sport that was invented 50 to 60 years ago. This sport has stood the test of time. Its not some FAD or the signature of generation. Many generations have played this game. It is a great game!!
I know plenty of young people that love to bowl. I have approached many an asked them if they would like to join a league or sub. Most are interested. The problem is getting to these individuals. In the past there was no need to recruit. High School competition could be the ticket!
Bowlers are not identified with one thing! The X-Games target a younger crowd, easier to sell to advertisers if they know their targeting audience. Bowlers are not so easy. They are all ranges of age and all types of income. I wouldn't be surprised if PBA telecasts has higher ratings than other sports.
You're right -- bowling is becoming more popular in HS. The state of Tennessee's championship tournament is exceptionally well attended (approximately 2,000 bowlers and spectators the last couple of years each) and we're starting to make inroads in Alabama, at least. Slowly, local boards of education are starting to realize this is a competitive sport. The big question for HS bowling is whether it will flourish across the board given that there aren't bowling centers in many rural areas.
The big question for the USBC is whether we'll be able to pick these kids up as league members after college or whether we'll lose them. My experience is we're losing them because (a) we don't keep them in the sport while they're in college and (b) these are the ones most likely to tell you they don't have time for a 36-week league.
This is where it will become imperative to offer alternative forms of league structure (short-season, PBA shot, etc.). As for the college problem, I bowled on ABC leagues throughout college, but ran into great resistance trying to get my leagues to recruit college kids because a lot of leagues would flat-out not want "their kind" on the league with them. Part of it was the kids' fault, too, because I did find a lot of them wouldn't pay regularly.
Again, standard ball is no part of this particular problem.
Jess
Post by: JessN16 on January 21, 2007, 07:02:39 PM
quote:
I am constantly amazed how bowlers with ~10 years experience talk about the 70's as if they experienced it and how they know the industry. How come, when bowlers who have 30-40+ years experience speak out very few with less experience give them the benifit of doubt?
The bottom line is that we (the bowling community) should seak out all the knowledge and experience that we can to fix bowling to restore and guarnetee it's survial. And the vast majority of that experience comes from those who have been around the longest. Brian Voss has commited himself to doing what he can which includes teaching the bowling community. Sometimes listening and trying to understand is harder than expressing points of view with less experince. While I may not agree with all of which Brian may be saying, at least he is saying and doing something over than just talking words.
Finally, if you think Brian Voss is a lone voice in the wind, look at the foundation 300 organization (who has been proclaiming similar points of view for decades and doing thins differently) and listen to the phantomradioshow which has had 100's of guests over the years that are saying the same things. We all should do more listening and learning.
I've listened to Voss's arguments. Chris Barnes took a 180-degree-opposite viewpoint on PBA.com's forums last year; why is Voss right and Barnes wrong?
Oh, that's right -- Barnes has a ball company endorsement contract. Well, Voss's mug is all over the Kegel site promoting the WTBA and standard ball argument.
My point is, I've listened to Voss. I gave him my open mind and ear, disagreed with his conclusions (I've carried a ABC/USBC card for nearly 20 years now -- is that enough time for me to be able to speak?) and got blasted for it on pba.com. I see part of that in your post too -- "We should do more listening and learning."
That's elitism (no pun intended towards the guy who gets paid by Elite) and I saw enough of it on pba.com to last me the rest of my life without getting the similar notion here.
To put it bluntly, I think Voss is full of s**t.
I think what's happened here is a combination of changing social factors in the United States, changing economic factors at the bowling center level, changing demographics in the makeup of the American blue-collar workforce and thusly the makeup of the potential bowler pool, changing attitudes in the amount of time one wants to devote to any recreational activity whether it's bowling or not (the "36-week phenomenon"), and vastly increased competition in the number of recreational activities that compete for people's dollars.
When you mix those ingredients up, you get a pretty strong cup of soup. But some bowling officials and bowlers like Voss think it's something internal in the bowling clock that's broken and they can fix it.
And, as I've said before, I think a little of it is jealousy and hurt pride.
As far as being "laughed at" if you shoot 300, here's my advice: Nut up. We've got such an inferiority complex to our sport where we look to outside sponsors, or the opinions of others for validation of our accomplishments. I don't give a tinker's damn whether some schmuck laughs at an honor score. People laugh at Mike Tyson today but I bet you they won't volunteer to go three rounds with him.
The standard ball is a perfect example of someone trying to force something onto me for my own good. Until you can point a direct correlation between the ball and bowling's troubles, it's just a bunch of hot air. I'm glad you know five guys who've quit because of the scoring pace; I know a whole league of 180 bowlers who got wiped out because the local tire plant dropped its entire third shift. I guarantee you that's had infinitely more to do with bowling's downturn than the ball.
And as for who's saying it -- Brian Voss, me, you or the janitor -- a good football player won't automatically become a good football coach. When it turns to words instead of athletic skill, there are many more variables that go into the equation.
Jess
Post by: REVerse on January 21, 2007, 07:51:22 PM
quote:
Golf technology is the same way. Longer balls and stronger clubs. Tennis went from the wood racquet to the carbon racquet.
I am just tired of the smokers and the drunks. Some of my fondest memories growing up around were bowling centers. Some of my nightmares were too. Bowling has always attracted the drunken redneck smoker. I saw a lot of stuff in bowling alleys growing up that was not too pleasent. It has not changed much. Now its gang bangers.
The sad thing here is the center that allows smoking has the best lane conditions. The smoke free facility is beautiful, but the weekend shot is horrible and caters more to birthday parties. Everyone bowls house balls and the oil from Friday (9AM league) ends up at the pins on Saturday night. Instead of falling, the pins just stand there and slide around vertically without falling down. Split city...
This redneck hates smoking. LOL. My league status is substitute because I can't tolerate smoke.
Here-Just a few gang-bangers. Mostly wigs. They stay to themselves.-
Anymore, I am more of an open bowler and enjoying bowling with my son and coaching the youth of the YABA on Saturday mornings.
We stay away from the "alleys" and bowl at centers. Yes, some "alleys" are poorly managed and give the sport a bad rap.
--------------------
Ray
Beer and Brunswick. It doesn't get any better.
Post by: pin-chaser on January 21, 2007, 08:22:09 PM
Thanks for your reply. I have not heard anything that Barns has said on that subject and I am very interested in reading it. Can you provide a URL where I might read it?
I dont proclaim to know the answers but have been active in searching for some solutions for several years (as some on this forum might know). I have learned alot and have alot more to learn.
And like I said, I dont agree with everything that was said in that article, but I do respect the fact that someone (with such a large audience) is and has been saying something for years. Especially because he has lost income over that persuit.
I am sorry that I offened you or anyone else, all I was trying to say was I believe Voss understands more than I and many of us on this forum just how much of an impact that todays technology has had on the scoring pace. And that there are many reasons that todays scoring pace has had a negative impact on the sport of bowling.
I do understand there is many reasons for the attrition rate that bowling has been experiencing. And I believe there are many reasons that we can solve as I am sure there are many that we cant. And we should solve all the easy ones first while working on a plan to solve the harder ones. It has taken decades to get here, I am sure it will take decades to recover the maximum possible.
--------------------
Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365
Post by: JessN16 on January 22, 2007, 12:22:05 AM
quote:
JessN16,
Thanks for your reply. I have not heard anything that Barns has said on that subject and I am very interested in reading it. Can you provide a URL where I might read it?
I dont proclaim to know the answers but have been active in searching for some solutions for several years (as some on this forum might know). I have learned alot and have alot more to learn.
And like I said, I dont agree with everything that was said in that article, but I do respect the fact that someone (with such a large audience) is and has been saying something for years. Especially because he has lost income over that persuit.
I am sorry that I offened you or anyone else, all I was trying to say was I believe Voss understands more than I and many of us on this forum just how much of an impact that todays technology has had on the scoring pace. And that there are many reasons that todays scoring pace has had a negative impact on the sport of bowling.
I do understand there is many reasons for the attrition rate that bowling has been experiencing. And I believe there are many reasons that we can solve as I am sure there are many that we cant. And we should solve all the easy ones first while working on a plan to solve the harder ones. It has taken decades to get here, I am sure it will take decades to recover the maximum possible.
--------------------
Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365
I haven't been on pba.com recently enough to know where to find Barnes' link, but his argument on limiting balls was that it took "tools out of (his) toolbox" to do so and it would provide an advantage to players whose game matched up better to the kind of skid/roll characteristics a standard ball would provide.
I also didn't mean to respond as vehemently as I did; the problem with pba.com is that I've seen this argument come up so many times there, and you've got a handful of instigators and then a dozen or more guys that jump in behind them with "good post," etc., to the point where there's no room for a counterargument.
Jess
Post by: REVerse on January 23, 2007, 06:02:32 AM
Has anyone been to the Biltmore House in Asheville, NC? Take a look at the bowling lanes there. The balls are made from wood and have two finger holes. Not to mention narrow lanes, etc.
Taking the "state of the art" out of bowling will damage it beyond repair.
--------------------
Ray
I'll have a PBR and two pickled eggs please...
Post by: Djarum on January 23, 2007, 09:33:17 AM
quote:
With all due respect to Brian Voss, but this is coming from a guy who uses bowling balls from a company that has an MSRP price for their balls at $398!
Mr. Voss, that is a problem! A bowling ball should be no more than $100. The problem is bowlers constantly blame the ball and not themselves. Ball companies would not put out 500 balls a year if bowlers were willing to actually learn the game.
If all manufactures made one plastic ball, one urethane ball, and one resin ball and that was it, maybe costs would not be so high.
How come people learned how to bowl and excelled in bowling with 3 piece pancake technology, but now if the ball is not $300, made with the most advanced resins possible, and asymetrical its not desired by bowlers?
Why are bowlers the ones who want the easy way out? How come someone today can be a 220 average bowler in a year with a Robo Rule, but someone playing golf for a year with a $3000 set of clubs is still going to struggle breaking 100?
Ball manufactures have made bowling to easy. I challange any bowler to bowl a league season even on todays legally walled conditions with a Columbia U-dot and better yet, on a PBA condition. I further challange the PBA to do the same.
The point is, at $5 a game in some centers, if someone does not shoot at least 250 they have not got their moneys worth. So the ball companies and the USBC gave away 52,000 300 games last year so people can get their moneys worth.
Unfortunately bowling is dead and cannot be fixed. Too many people see pros shoot 190 on television after watching or hearing about guys like Robert Mushtare shooting 5 900 series in a year.
It cannot be fixed. I wish I were like some of these people and averaged 220 and shooting 300's and 800's all the time, yet with my eyesight I have only managed to average 190-202 over the past 20 years.
Or maybe if I could afford $300 for a ball, I could buy a 300 game. Brian, I respect your game and career, but if guys like you want to impress me, instead of throwing a $398 ball on television next time, throw a 1984 Star Trak pancake block urethane Force 3...oh, I guess you want a ball that "matches up to your game, hooks in oil, and helps with pin carry, and helps you win..." never mind actually bowling.
I just love how you take Voss's open minded and broad opinion, and staple your narrominded one right on top! Great Job!
Dj
--------------------
The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: Djarum on January 23, 2007, 09:38:17 AM
quote:
i too find it ironic that Voss is saying these things when he has signed with elite. and yes the prices of the elite balls are outragous. what i find to be the oddest thing is that ,in an article in our local bowling newsletter down here in central Texas, Voss was proposing that the USBC should make stricter legalities as far as the bowling balls that are produced. He even suggested that all companies go back to a pancake core and a basic urethane coverstock. First off, nothing but urethane balls would never go over and second this is coming from a guy who, once again, is sponsored by Elite Bowling who produced balls that (supposidly) strike on every PBA pattern. The Elite PBA balls are total BS because they are suggesting that each ball is perfect on each pattern no matter what the situation is or who is throwing them. Now i will give him credit because he got it done back in the day of U Dots and Yellow Dots but if you were to hand both him and Wes Malott a U Dot and have them bowl on the Shark pattern Voss wouldn't even have a chance. I guarantee that if you ask Norm Duke if he would go back to U Dots or Blue Hammers instead of any one of the high end balls now days he would simply reply by saying,"Are you serious?" you could ask any of the guys that have been on tour that long.
i find it funny that the PBA prize fund has been cut even with the addition of Columbia and Etonic sponsorships. if i'm gonna get sick of seeing Chris Barnes or some shoes in a commercial than i wanna do it knowing that my friends on tour are bowling for real money!!!! as far as the decline of the sport goes, a very large factor in this arguement is the prices of open play. the recreational bowlers are not going to become dedicated league bowlers if they have to pay 25-30 bucks to bowl 3 games and practice to get better. (and that's being reasonable). the bowling center owners will say that prices must go up or else there is no profit being made. more BS, all of that "profit" is going towards the extra crapola that you have in the building; excessive arcade games, redemption games and prizes, and those "Entertainment Centers" with mini golf, go-carts,lazer tag and all of that stuff in the same place. of course you have to raise the prices of bowling when you have to pay the expenses of all that other useless stuff! it needs to go back to just bowling. yes, i can see a few arcade games and vending machines, but nothing outragous. if we can go back to an actual "bowling alley" then we can lower our open play rates,make plenty of money, attract more people to the sport-which goes hand in hand with selling more equipment in our proshops
but hey, maybe that's just me?
Zach
--------------------
The ProStop, Round Rock TX
They say everything's bigger in Texas..."Big B"! Brunswick Baby!
-Brunswick Scorchin Inferno
-Brunswick Inferno(5-Gotta save em!)
-Brunswick Absolute Inferno(2)
-Brunswick (Special)Absolute Inferno
-Brunswick Vapor Zone
-Brunswick Strike Zone
-Brunswick Zone Classic Red Pin
-Brunswick Impulse Zone
-Brunswick BVP Punisher
-Brunswick Monster SlayR
.....-Legends World Class Particle............wait, how did that get in there????
Wow. Another narrow mind. I don't think people can fathom what it costs to run a bowling alley. I also don't think people realize how much in the red alot of bowling alleys and equipment mfgs are.
Dj
--------------------
The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: Djarum on January 23, 2007, 09:46:40 AM
quote:quote:
I am constantly amazed how bowlers with ~10 years experience talk about the 70's as if they experienced it and how they know the industry. How come, when bowlers who have 30-40+ years experience speak out very few with less experience give them the benifit of doubt?
The bottom line is that we (the bowling community) should seak out all the knowledge and experience that we can to fix bowling to restore and guarnetee it's survial. And the vast majority of that experience comes from those who have been around the longest. Brian Voss has commited himself to doing what he can which includes teaching the bowling community. Sometimes listening and trying to understand is harder than expressing points of view with less experince. While I may not agree with all of which Brian may be saying, at least he is saying and doing something over than just talking words.
Finally, if you think Brian Voss is a lone voice in the wind, look at the foundation 300 organization (who has been proclaiming similar points of view for decades and doing thins differently) and listen to the phantomradioshow which has had 100's of guests over the years that are saying the same things. We all should do more listening and learning.
I've listened to Voss's arguments. Chris Barnes took a 180-degree-opposite viewpoint on PBA.com's forums last year; why is Voss right and Barnes wrong?
Oh, that's right -- Barnes has a ball company endorsement contract. Well, Voss's mug is all over the Kegel site promoting the WTBA and standard ball argument.
My point is, I've listened to Voss. I gave him my open mind and ear, disagreed with his conclusions (I've carried a ABC/USBC card for nearly 20 years now -- is that enough time for me to be able to speak?) and got blasted for it on pba.com. I see part of that in your post too -- "We should do more listening and learning."
That's elitism (no pun intended towards the guy who gets paid by Elite) and I saw enough of it on pba.com to last me the rest of my life without getting the similar notion here.
To put it bluntly, I think Voss is full of s**t.
I think what's happened here is a combination of changing social factors in the United States, changing economic factors at the bowling center level, changing demographics in the makeup of the American blue-collar workforce and thusly the makeup of the potential bowler pool, changing attitudes in the amount of time one wants to devote to any recreational activity whether it's bowling or not (the "36-week phenomenon"), and vastly increased competition in the number of recreational activities that compete for people's dollars.
When you mix those ingredients up, you get a pretty strong cup of soup. But some bowling officials and bowlers like Voss think it's something internal in the bowling clock that's broken and they can fix it.
And, as I've said before, I think a little of it is jealousy and hurt pride.
As far as being "laughed at" if you shoot 300, here's my advice: Nut up. We've got such an inferiority complex to our sport where we look to outside sponsors, or the opinions of others for validation of our accomplishments. I don't give a tinker's damn whether some schmuck laughs at an honor score. People laugh at Mike Tyson today but I bet you they won't volunteer to go three rounds with him.
The standard ball is a perfect example of someone trying to force something onto me for my own good. Until you can point a direct correlation between the ball and bowling's troubles, it's just a bunch of hot air. I'm glad you know five guys who've quit because of the scoring pace; I know a whole league of 180 bowlers who got wiped out because the local tire plant dropped its entire third shift. I guarantee you that's had infinitely more to do with bowling's downturn than the ball.
And as for who's saying it -- Brian Voss, me, you or the janitor -- a good football player won't automatically become a good football coach. When it turns to words instead of athletic skill, there are many more variables that go into the equation.
Jess
Sorry Jess, I disagree. While I don't completly agree with all of Voss's comments, he is right in that bowling needs fixing. And as far as forcing something on to you, that is in ALL sports. All sports have rules and regulations, and they do change from time to time. If you can't deal with what is imposed by the regulating officials of that sport, don't participate. This is not an elitist attitude either. In the past, we have tried to make the game more approachable. This usually requires easy scoring, the circus routine at the bowling alley, etc. Golf and many sports have not stooped to this level. I believe bowling can be approachable and challenging at the same time. I believe the USBC, PBA, and alley operators have missed the boat on this one.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: trash heap on January 23, 2007, 10:04:17 AM
Post by: REVerse on January 23, 2007, 07:15:24 PM
quote:
Hmmm... I never thought telling the truth was narrow minded. As long as Brian Voss endorses $398 bowling balls and then signs up with Kegel and then wants a standard ball, I have no use for him. Let him make up his mind. $398 bowling balls, or a standard 3 piece ball at $99. A Kegel machines that blocks lanes for you, or a standard machine that lays oil across the boards. Tell me, who is narrowminded now?
Kewl--------------------
Ray
Beer and Brunswick. It doesn't get any better.
Post by: Djarum on January 24, 2007, 07:18:13 AM
quote:
Hmmm... I never thought telling the truth was narrow minded. As long as Brian Voss endorses $398 bowling balls and then signs up with Kegel and then wants a standard ball, I have no use for him. Let him make up his mind. $398 bowling balls, or a standard 3 piece ball at $99. A Kegel machines that blocks lanes for you, or a standard machine that lays oil across the boards. Tell me, who is narrowminded now?
1, Just because someone is endorsed by some company, does not define who they are.
2, I have never used an elite product, but, looking at their market strategy, and looking at the volume of equipment sold, I see nothing wrong with this. I remember 15 years ago when the columbia pirahna C came out, was top of the line at 180 at the LPS. At the same time, Brunswick was selling Quantums for 250 at the LPS. No one in my area criticized Brunswick for the move, or anyone who threw them. They ended up being a fantastic line of balls.
3, Voss's opinions are his opinions, not his sponsors opinions. They can't control what he says.
4, You believe he has no credibility because of his sponsors, instead of the fact that he has earned and been on tour for quite some time, and probably understands the game and the business more than any of us. So yes, he does have the right to criticize.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: shelley on January 24, 2007, 07:42:52 AM
quote:
1, Just because someone is endorsed by some company, does not define who they are.
Voss isn't endorsed by Elite, Elite is endorsed by Voss. That's what they pay him for. He uses their equipment, he promotes it at tour stops, he is a paid salesman for Elite.
For all his integrity and love of the game, if he liked the standard ball that much, he'd find the closest thing to it and use it. His money isn't where his mouth is, it's where Elite's mouth is. And Elite's mouth says "buy these $300 bowling balls".
SH
Post by: Djarum on January 24, 2007, 08:04:53 AM
quote:quote:
1, Just because someone is endorsed by some company, does not define who they are.
Voss isn't endorsed by Elite, Elite is endorsed by Voss. That's what they pay him for. He uses their equipment, he promotes it at tour stops, he is a paid salesman for Elite.
For all his integrity and love of the game, if he liked the standard ball that much, he'd find the closest thing to it and use it. His money isn't where his mouth is, it's where Elite's mouth is. And Elite's mouth says "buy these $300 bowling balls".
SH
Shelley,
You must realize that there is a difference between what we want and the way things are. Look at the NFL. There were plenty of coaches who opposed instant replay. Are they using it? You bet.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Edited on 1/24/2007 9:22 AM
Post by: shelley on January 24, 2007, 09:27:09 AM
quote:
You must realize that there is a difference between what we want and the way things are. Look at the NFL. There were plenty of coaches who opposed instant replay. Are they using it? You bet.
You're right. I guess hypocrisy is acceptable so long as everyone's doing it.
SH
Post by: MaineLefty on January 24, 2007, 09:32:14 AM
--------------------
*There are no stupid questions, just stupid people that ask questions
IN THE BAG:
Hammer No Mercy
Columbia Wrath XP
Columbia U-Turn Particle Pearl
Track Revmaster
Personal Stats: http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?mp=985&ms=391&s=2006-2007
Post by: Djarum on January 24, 2007, 11:31:04 AM
quote:quote:
You must realize that there is a difference between what we want and the way things are. Look at the NFL. There were plenty of coaches who opposed instant replay. Are they using it? You bet.
You're right. I guess hypocrisy is acceptable so long as everyone's doing it.
SH
It depends. That is the problem with taking a stand. If you take some sort of stand on something, and its an idealistic stand, and go forth with it, you look like an idiot. If you take an idealistic stand, and succum to reality, you look like an idiot. If Voss was out there losing with a plastic pancake ball, we'd all look at him like an idiot. If he's out there using the latest and greatest, he's a hypocrite. Can't win with the critics when you take a stand. But taking a stand is more than Most bolwers. I applaud Voss for actually taking a stand. Pro bowlers aren't going to put down the hand that feeds them... which says more about the character of all other bowlers than it does about Voss.
As far as elite goes, I don't see the problem. Anyone could compare this to any situation. Pro atheletes endorse 200 dollar shoes made by 6 year olds in China. Is anyone complaining about it? Are 200 dollar shoes any better than 80 dollar ones? I doubt it. Do people want to own 200 dollar shoes? Sure.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Edited on 1/24/2007 12:33 PM
Edited on 1/24/2007 12:36 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on January 24, 2007, 11:54:06 AM
He has been a great talent and champion on the tour for two decades. I believe that gives him the right to have a weighted opinion.
I don’t see how you think he is a hypocrite.
The main thrust of this article was that he is saddened by the decline of the sport and that all vested groups need to have a common vision of where it is going in order to grow. He feels it is unlikely that is going to happen
In other posts he has said he feels the game would be better off with the balls being restricted and that the rules should be changed to do that. I agree with that position.
He is not saying his ball company should be the only one making bowling balls.
But he also is trying to make a living plying a trade. The ball company that sponsors him is not evil and doing anything outside the rules. You don’t like their equipment and/or their pricing, then fine don’t buy their product, but they comply with all USBC regulations.
In order to be competitive on the tour you have to use such equipment, just as all the other players do and is allowed by the rules, or you will be left behind.
Post by: JessN16 on January 26, 2007, 12:49:55 AM
I knew someone would respond the way to me that you did, I just didn't think it would take that long. I love how you took my post, which didn't just address a ball, but socioeconomic factors, and called it "putting my narrow-minded stamp on Brian Voss's open-minded opinion."
That's a joke in need of a punchline right there.
The realities of the situation are this: One, the people who don't want a standard ball far outnumber the ones that do. It's not going to pass at the amateur level -- and probably not the pro level, either -- before Voss's career is over. For some reason, I don't think we'll be hearing as much from him on this subject after his tour career ends.
In my opinion -- which is an educated one, considering my involvement in the past at the association level and in recruiting -- the sport is wasting its time trying to fix the ball issue. Every day we spend wringing our hands over that is one fewer day we can address the issues that are really endangering the sport.
The other part of the problem is this: Right now, 99 percent of the standard ball advocates (or at least the vocal ones) seem to be pros and/or their supporters, and many of them post on pba.com, which is the website the PBA is trying to drive everyone to that watches the telecasts on the weekends.
So what are the pros doing? They're using the forums on pba.com to preach about "cheater balls" and how honor scores at the amateur level are "tainted" or "invalid," and then anyone who disagrees with them is immediately shouted down and insulted by a handful of guys on that forum who fight for the standard ball as if were commanded from God.
It's a pitiful excuse for customer relations from an organization that hasn't figured out how to market the talent it has on hand, EVER. It's put a damned sour taste in my mouth, and I'm not the only one. My wife and I cancelled a pair of trips to participate in pro-ams this year after we started to question whether all pros had the same disdain for our participation in the sport that a handful on the pba.com boards apparently seem to have.
It's almost as if the PBA looked for ways to shoot itself in the foot, and barring being able to find a way, has invented new ones. I find myself watching fewer telecasts this year than in the past. Why should I make time for these guys if they think my friends and I are all cheater hacks?
As for your threat that the sport can change rules and I can either change or quit, many will do just that. I suspect a mandated standard ball would be the final death knell for many, if not most USBC leagues. It might be the catalyst for someone to finally start a competing organization.
Jess
Post by: Djarum on January 26, 2007, 11:52:49 AM
quote:
Djarum,
I knew someone would respond the way to me that you did, I just didn't think it would take that long. I love how you took my post, which didn't just address a ball, but socioeconomic factors, and called it "putting my narrow-minded stamp on Brian Voss's open-minded opinion."
That's a joke in need of a punchline right there.
The realities of the situation are this: One, the people who don't want a standard ball far outnumber the ones that do. It's not going to pass at the amateur level -- and probably not the pro level, either -- before Voss's career is over. For some reason, I don't think we'll be hearing as much from him on this subject after his tour career ends.
In my opinion -- which is an educated one, considering my involvement in the past at the association level and in recruiting -- the sport is wasting its time trying to fix the ball issue. Every day we spend wringing our hands over that is one fewer day we can address the issues that are really endangering the sport.
The other part of the problem is this: Right now, 99 percent of the standard ball advocates (or at least the vocal ones) seem to be pros and/or their supporters, and many of them post on pba.com, which is the website the PBA is trying to drive everyone to that watches the telecasts on the weekends.
So what are the pros doing? They're using the forums on pba.com to preach about "cheater balls" and how honor scores at the amateur level are "tainted" or "invalid," and then anyone who disagrees with them is immediately shouted down and insulted by a handful of guys on that forum who fight for the standard ball as if were commanded from God.
It's a pitiful excuse for customer relations from an organization that hasn't figured out how to market the talent it has on hand, EVER. It's put a damned sour taste in my mouth, and I'm not the only one. My wife and I cancelled a pair of trips to participate in pro-ams this year after we started to question whether all pros had the same disdain for our participation in the sport that a handful on the pba.com boards apparently seem to have.
It's almost as if the PBA looked for ways to shoot itself in the foot, and barring being able to find a way, has invented new ones. I find myself watching fewer telecasts this year than in the past. Why should I make time for these guys if they think my friends and I are all cheater hacks?
As for your threat that the sport can change rules and I can either change or quit, many will do just that. I suspect a mandated standard ball would be the final death knell for many, if not most USBC leagues. It might be the catalyst for someone to finally start a competing organization.
Jess
I don't necessarily with a standard ball. What I do believe in is people actually presenting solutions and taking some sort of stand in fixing the problem. Some say there is no problem, I disagree, bowling is on the decline. I applaud Voss or anyone who voices some sort of solution to the problem. I believe on a league level bowling is too easy. This was done to bring people in and let them feel good about themselves bowling. The problem with this is that bowling loses its credibilaty. What should have been done at the league level is maybe for houses to give reduced or free coaching to league bowlers. Teach them how to actually be better bowlers.
On the professional side of things, I compeletly agree. They did not market bowling in the best manner. That will have to change for the PBA to stay alive.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.