BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: trash heap on January 17, 2017, 09:14:13 AM
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Just curious,
If someone was to use a Urethane or Plastic Ball in League for some games and other games choose to use Reactive. By USBC Rules.....is this Sandbagging?
I see nothing in the rule about using different bowling balls.
I don't think this person could be called on it.
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Technically, no. Personally, yes.
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By rule, probably not. However, like most things, it has to pass the smell test. If a person uses plastic/urethane while establishing an average, goes to it when games are already won/lost, or switches to the more modern balls when games are close or when money is on the line, then it's pretty clear what's happening, and I think it's wrong.
Now, if the person is using plastic/urethane because he or she thinks it's the best option on given nights, and he or she always appears to be giving the best effort possible, then I don't have a problem with it.
Like many things, even with as obvious as some clowns make it, sandbagging is something that's really tough to prove.
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Below is the rule commonly cited as the "Sandbagging Rule":
Rule 17 – Grounds for Disciplinary Action
17a. Unfair Tactics
An individual can be charged with attempting to gain an unfair advantage in league or tournament play
for the following reasons:
1. Directly or indirectly tampering with lanes, pins or bowling balls so they no longer meet USBC
specifications.
2. Misrepresenting an average to gain a greater handicap, or qualify for a lower classification in an
event.
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or
classified competition.
The question comes down to intent which is where things get tricky. I have seen bowlers use plastic and urethane for the sake of experimentation. They have other equipment, but decide to use plastic or urethane. They may try their best to score, but for 99% of bowlers, using reactive equipment will provide more consistent scores and higher average.
I also see stuff like this when bowlers say they have a "league arsenal" and a "tournament arsenal". I understand if you don't want to risk damage or wearing out or whatever you convince yourself of if you use your best equipment when the stakes are low....
But Rule 17a.3. states you cannot establish an average "below your ability". Does USBC using the term ability remove equipment from the discussion? I also understand in order for it to be sandbagging then you have to use this lower average in a manner to gain an advantage. Perhaps some bowlers don't bowl tournaments. Maybe they don't take advantage of it.
But in my eyes, a bowler should use whatever equipment available and whatever means available to score as high as possible.
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It all comes down to intent and evidence thereof. Using plastic or urethane in and of itself is not evidence of intent. The pattern of how and when such balls are used could be evidence.
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Would half of the league bowlers that are using high end stuff way too aggressive for the league house shot and shooting < 175 be considered sandbaggers as well?
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Would half of the league bowlers that are using high end stuff way too aggressive for the league house shot and shooting < 175 be considered sandbaggers as well?
No, that would be called ignorance. :)
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There was a time when I was in the 185-192 range and I wanted to improve my accuracy. I used a urethane and a clear ball and I dropped 5 sticks or so, and I got the finger waving from some league members. I didn't give a rodents booty shake about this people. At the end of the season I ended up with higher average than I expected. over 195, yet I was still accused by the same folks of sandbagging.
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Below is the rule commonly cited as the "Sandbagging Rule":
Rule 17 – Grounds for Disciplinary Action
17a. Unfair Tactics
An individual can be charged with attempting to gain an unfair advantage in league or tournament play
for the following reasons:
1. Directly or indirectly tampering with lanes, pins or bowling balls so they no longer meet USBC
specifications.
2. Misrepresenting an average to gain a greater handicap, or qualify for a lower classification in an
event.
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or
classified competition.
The question comes down to intent which is where things get tricky. I have seen bowlers use plastic and urethane for the sake of experimentation. They have other equipment, but decide to use plastic or urethane. They may try their best to score, but for 99% of bowlers, using reactive equipment will provide more consistent scores and higher average.
I also see stuff like this when bowlers say they have a "league arsenal" and a "tournament arsenal". I understand if you don't want to risk damage or wearing out or whatever you convince yourself of if you use your best equipment when the stakes are low....
But Rule 17a.3. states you cannot establish an average "below your ability". Does USBC using the term ability remove equipment from the discussion? I also understand in order for it to be sandbagging then you have to use this lower average in a manner to gain an advantage. Perhaps some bowlers don't bowl tournaments. Maybe they don't take advantage of it.
But in my eyes, a bowler should use whatever equipment available and whatever means available to score as high as possible.
This gets really hairy. I know some guys who use plastic during league because they don't like the wide open house shots, and they want to actually have to be somewhat accurate/consistent in order to score. In and of itself, that's admirable. However, if they do that during league, which may cause their averages to be a bit lower, and then they bowl tournaments using "normal" equipment, do we now label them as baggers? Not sure.
It's the same thing with leagues that bowl on tough patterns without officially having them classified as Sport. If guys from those leagues go out and bowl tournaments using the averages from that league, are they a bunch of rotten cheaters? This is tough because, on one hand, you could applaud people for actually trying to challenge themselves on tougher patterns and/or by using low-tech balls, but it isn't really fair to then let them go out and blow the doors off of everyone in a handicap tourney because they average 190 on a tough shot instead of 220 on an easy one.
For me, it comes down to intent. Personally, if I bowled in one of those leagues (non-documented Sport) or chose to use plastic/urethane for the sake of challenging myself, thus resulting in a lower average, I don't think I'd bowl handicap events, or I'd report what I'm doing to the tournament directors so that they could rate me properly.
Just as food for thought, this cuts both ways. When I bowl ABT (now RTB) events, I am forced to use my league average 210+ even though I've probably only averaged about 190-195 on the challenging patterns put out on the tournament circuit. I don't complain because I know that's the price of establishing an average on a THS, but it happens nonetheless.
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I went thru phases where urethane worked better than reactive for me. Use to throw my Pitch Black/Pitch Blue/Pitch Red everywhere. Only things i could control at the time. People were upset but i was beating their a$$ with urethane just like Svensson does on the PBA tour. If your scores are alot lower throwing them and your not doing anything to adjust, thats considered sandbagging, just like dumping the 10th frame when your down 200.
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Would half of the league bowlers that are using high end stuff way too aggressive for the league house shot and shooting < 175 be considered sandbaggers as well?
There has to be intent, or in this case, the bowler would have to know they are using the wrong equipment on purpose. If they are ignorant and think they are using the correct equipment, then according to their ability, they are trying to score as high as possible.
There was a time when I was in the 185-192 range and I wanted to improve my accuracy. I used a urethane and a clear ball and I dropped 5 sticks or so, and I got the finger waving from some league members. I didn't give a rodents booty shake about this people. At the end of the season I ended up with higher average than I expected. over 195, yet I was still accused by the same folks of sandbagging.
And for this, the key is highlighted. Just because you averaged higher than expected doesn't excuse the situation. If you averaged lower than expected would that be different? Did you occasionally try different equipment to see if the effort allowed you to be a better bowler? I am guessing after this season, you were no longer under 200 average.
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I bowled a mix league one year using Urethane and Plastic. At first struggled a bit, average was on the low side but, eventually brought it up where I was the previous year using reactive.
Pros and cons to Urethane. Pros - Movement on the approach was minor, some nights didn't move at all.
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But the problem I'm having with the responses is why should someone else get to tell me that I can't intentionally make the game more challenging if I want to? I have no access to tough conditions around me, at least not for league. As such, if I chose (I don't) to only use plastic or urethane because I wanted to make it so that I had to be better with accuracy and speed, why is that wrong? Yes, I know that using plastic or urethane may make my average lower, but as long as I'm not doing that with the intent of then using that lowered average to clean up at tournaments or to snatch up prize money in the league, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that? I don't like the idea of someone telling me how I have to play the game. If I want to make the game tougher by using older equipment, why should that be a bad thing, again, as long as I'm not doing it so that I can use that lower average later to blast everyone in handicap events?
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But the problem I'm having with the responses is why should someone else get to tell me that I can't intentionally make the game more challenging if I want to? I have no access to tough conditions around me, at least not for league. As such, if I chose (I don't) to only use plastic or urethane because I wanted to make it so that I had to be better with accuracy and speed, why is that wrong? Yes, I know that using plastic or urethane may make my average lower, but as long as I'm not doing that with the intent of then using that lowered average to clean up at tournaments or to snatch up prize money in the league, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that? I don't like the idea of someone telling me how I have to play the game. If I want to make the game tougher by using older equipment, why should that be a bad thing, again, as long as I'm not doing it so that I can use that lower average later to blast everyone in handicap events?
I think you answered your own question. As a league member, if someone uses urethane/plastic for every shot thrown in that league, then I have no qualms.
As a tournament bowler though, if someone throws every shot in league with urethane/plastic and then uses different equipment in tournament settings, then I have issues with that. Only thing, I don't know what that bowler uses in league. This is why this example would be near impossible to claim wrongdoing.
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I think, for me, it comes down to whether or not that bowler bowls handicap events. Even if I did use plastic or urethane during league, I would probably switch during tournaments unless the shot called for those types of balls. It's kind of like using league as a glorified practice session rather than counting it as true competition. However, then I wouldn't bowl handicap events, or I'd let the tournament director know where my average should truly be. I guess I'm just saying I have no problem with someone wanting to make the game harder unless their intent is to then go out and use the inflated handicap to gain an advantage. That is BS.
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A ball is just a tool. If it's used inappropriately it's a problem. If it's not it's not. I've thrown some really good sets with plastic on Wolf and Cheetah. On the right kind of house shot it can be a life saver if you're rev dominant.
If you're throwing the wrong ball (no matter the type) to lower your average then use that advantage in a handicap event, then it's sandbagging.
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If someone was to use a Urethane or Plastic Ball in League for some games and other games choose to use Reactive. By USBC Rules.....is this Sandbagging?
Are plastic and reactive being used for games in the same league session? or even the same league? or is plastic used on Tuesday and Reactive on Wednesday?
in terms of league play; as long as the bowler only uses plastic for the entire league; not sandbagging. if that bowler has an average from an other league (presumably higher) where they truly go all out and that controls their tournament average; still not sandbagging.
but; if using the plastic ball scores to have a lower average in order to gain an advantage either on specific league nights or tournaments where the reactive equipment is used; then yes, sandbagging.
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This is exactly what I was getting at in the other thread. It all comes down to intent. If doing anything to get a lower average in order to gain somewhere else (handicap tournament), then it is clearly sandbagging.
I have no problem with people throwing urethane and/or plastic if that's also what they use at these tournaments. Or if they have another league where they establish a truer average throwing resin. Challenging yourself is one thing, but to then go with the easier route in order to cash down the line - using that lower average, that is downright sandbagging and wrong.
Personally, I do not even complain about these people. I still go out and bowl, knowing full well that odds are against me. Same with bowling scratch events against better bowlers. I like the challenge. For me, bowling is not about making money. At the same time, if brought up in discussion, I'm only going to tell it like it is.
Sandbagging is all about intent. Unfortunately, this intent is often hard to prove.
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This is exactly what I was getting at in the other thread. It all comes down to intent. If doing anything to get a lower average in order to gain somewhere else (handicap tournament), then it is clearly sandbagging.
I have no problem with people throwing urethane and/or plastic if that's also what they use at these tournaments. Or if they have another league where they establish a truer average throwing resin. Challenging yourself is one thing, but to then go with the easier route in order to cash down the line - using that lower average, that is downright sandbagging and wrong.
Personally, I do not even complain about these people. I still go out and bowl, knowing full well that odds are against me. Same with bowling scratch events against better bowlers. I like the challenge. For me, bowling is not about making money. At the same time, if brought up in discussion, I'm only going to tell it like it is.
Sandbagging is all about intent. Unfortunately, this intent is often hard to prove.
What about a person that throws urethane or plastic in league because the bowler finds there best look with urethane or plastic vs a reactive ball. Then goes to tournaments and uses reactive?
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To me, that's a no-brainer. If plastic or urethane give you the best look, use it. If resin gives you the best look somewhere else, use that. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone using one type of ball in one situation and another type in another unless they're doing it with the specific purpose of scoring lower, booking a lower average, and using handicap to be get an advantage later on.
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This is exactly what I was getting at in the other thread. It all comes down to intent. If doing anything to get a lower average in order to gain somewhere else (handicap tournament), then it is clearly sandbagging.
I have no problem with people throwing urethane and/or plastic if that's also what they use at these tournaments. Or if they have another league where they establish a truer average throwing resin. Challenging yourself is one thing, but to then go with the easier route in order to cash down the line - using that lower average, that is downright sandbagging and wrong.
Personally, I do not even complain about these people. I still go out and bowl, knowing full well that odds are against me. Same with bowling scratch events against better bowlers. I like the challenge. For me, bowling is not about making money. At the same time, if brought up in discussion, I'm only going to tell it like it is.
Sandbagging is all about intent. Unfortunately, this intent is often hard to prove.
What about a person that throws urethane or plastic in league because the bowler finds there best look with urethane or plastic vs a reactive ball. Then goes to tournaments and uses reactive?
This is one of those "I would know it when I see it," much like the Supreme Court and porn. But in all honesty, most on this forum would be able to tell if the bowler is truly using the best ball for the shot. I have a guy on my team, not a big time tournament player, but decent. He uses urethane and plastic because of his ball speed. Plus he is left handed and the center seems to use less on the left side. At other centers he is able to throw his Supernatural and perhaps a Lane Masters Hornet, both very weak resin. I wouldn't call him a sandbagger since I see the shot he has to play on.
But if everyone in the league is using normal resin and this guy is pumping plastic up the dirt claiming his other stuff doesn't work, then that sounds bad. If he is swinging urethane and plastic and doing pretty well, then I would probably be okay with it.
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Biggest sandbagger I've ever seen was actually a friend of mine. One on one league, handicap. Dude had a good amount of hand, and was using a Clear Wolf the first 6 weeks of league. Went and got a Rock drilled, and ran everyone over with his cap.
He didn't come back the year after...
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Where I bowl league it is advantageous to use something very weak lol
A lot of senior bowlers or guys who don't have a lot of speed are matching up with Super Naturals, Pitch Blues, Arctic Snipers, and Mixes.
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This is exactly what I was getting at in the other thread. It all comes down to intent. If doing anything to get a lower average in order to gain somewhere else (handicap tournament), then it is clearly sandbagging.
I have no problem with people throwing urethane and/or plastic if that's also what they use at these tournaments. Or if they have another league where they establish a truer average throwing resin. Challenging yourself is one thing, but to then go with the easier route in order to cash down the line - using that lower average, that is downright sandbagging and wrong.
Personally, I do not even complain about these people. I still go out and bowl, knowing full well that odds are against me. Same with bowling scratch events against better bowlers. I like the challenge. For me, bowling is not about making money. At the same time, if brought up in discussion, I'm only going to tell it like it is.
Sandbagging is all about intent. Unfortunately, this intent is often hard to prove.
What about a person that throws urethane or plastic in league because the bowler finds there best look with urethane or plastic vs a reactive ball. Then goes to tournaments and uses reactive?
Clearly not sandbagging. Do you even know what sandbagging is? It doesn't seem so. If plastic/urethane gives you the best look, use it.
I would find that rare and completely odd though, especially if bowling the same house, using the same THS for league and tournaments. House shot vs sport shot, sure. Different houses, sure. A little suspect with the same house and same shot. Then again, it could come down to 10 on a pair during 5 man vs 3-4 on a pair during tournament.
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This is exactly what I was getting at in the other thread. It all comes down to intent. If doing anything to get a lower average in order to gain somewhere else (handicap tournament), then it is clearly sandbagging.
I have no problem with people throwing urethane and/or plastic if that's also what they use at these tournaments. Or if they have another league where they establish a truer average throwing resin. Challenging yourself is one thing, but to then go with the easier route in order to cash down the line - using that lower average, that is downright sandbagging and wrong.
Personally, I do not even complain about these people. I still go out and bowl, knowing full well that odds are against me. Same with bowling scratch events against better bowlers. I like the challenge. For me, bowling is not about making money. At the same time, if brought up in discussion, I'm only going to tell it like it is.
Sandbagging is all about intent. Unfortunately, this intent is often hard to prove.
What about a person that throws urethane or plastic in league because the bowler finds there best look with urethane or plastic vs a reactive ball. Then goes to tournaments and uses reactive?
Clearly not sandbagging. Do you even know what sandbagging is? It doesn't seem so. If plastic/urethane gives you the best look, use it.
I would find that rare and completely odd though, especially if bowling the same house, using the same THS for league and tournaments. House shot vs sport shot, sure. Different houses, sure. A little suspect with the same house and same shot. Then again, it could come down to 10 on a pair during 5 man vs 3-4 on a pair during tournament.
In my Wednesday night league, some have had to resort to urethane or plastic due to the extremely fried backends we've had. Last night, one of our lefties actually went to the plastic spare ball in the 3rd game and shot 223 with it. It was the only way with his rev rate that he would not run into an overreaction. Bottom line is that you do what you need to do in order to give yourself the best chance of success.
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Buddy a mine shot 780 with a Purple Hammer, best look by far since he punched it up. Average went up 10 pins...But urethane is sandbagging?
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No, using plastic or urethane is not sandbagging unless you're doing so specifically because you want to score lower, which will lower your average and allow you to then use that low average later in league or in tournaments. To me, sandbagging isn't about what ball you're using. When your plan is to try to score lower than you know you can, THAT'S bagging.
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I'm thinking of getting a urethane ball next.
The Venom Shock hooks more than I want it to. I need something that hooks less on the dry lane at one of the alleys we play at.
I don't really like plastic or urethane because they transfer oil further down the lane instead of soaking it up, so pins might just slide across the floor instead of fall you know.
But at the point where I'd use the urethane at, there wouldn't be much oil to transfer anymore anyway.
But I'll wait until after the summer break. The Rebel Tank is tempting to get, but I want to wait and see if Motiv releases something else after the summer break.
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Carrydown from plastic or urethane will impact your down lane breakpoint but I have never seen it become an issue on the pin decks unless they are going days without stripping
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I don't think it makes you a Sandbagger. Personally, I haven't bowled in over two years, and I plan on throwing my storm natural in a practice league this summer so I can see how bad I'm throwing it and make improvements. Even though I know my average will increase once I start throwing something reactive, my goal is get to the ball to start coming off my hand again consistently. ;D
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Carrydown from plastic or urethane will impact your down lane breakpoint but I have never seen it become an issue on the pin decks unless they are going days without stripping
There are two things that I'm curious about in regard to your assertion.
1) If 1 person out of 8-10 on a pair is using plastic/urethane, how much oil is that 1 bowler pushing around? With that, we've seen during the PBA blue-oil telecasts that the heads get destroyed really quickly with the resin stuff. So, again, does one person using plastic/urethane really move that much oil down the lane?
2) Do today's more modern urethanes push the oil down in the same fashion as the old school ones? I use a Natural Pearl and a Black Hammer urethane (the new one) quite a bit, and I don't think I ever notice the breakpoint getting softer as the night goes along (to indicate oil being pushed down the lane). I'm just wondering if the newer ones with the higher-flaring cores impact oil the same way they used to.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your statement on either point; I legitimately am curious and would like to know the answers.
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Good questions on carrydown. First, just my own opinion based on experience, I don't think one bowler on a pair using urethane promotes much carrydown. I say this talking mainly about house shots. There is little or no oil outside 10 board to begin with, thus not much oil to carrydown. To the extent there is carrydown on a house shot it helps me if I am willing to not fight it, but rather use the mid lane hold area that is being set up, assuming there is any. Also, to the extent there is carrydown, the urethane balls themselves will be most susceptible to it. A big advantage of resin from the day one it was first introduced was its ability to cut through carrydown way more effectively than urethane.
I have an experience from 25 years ago when the resin ball was brand new and most
everyone was still throwing urethane. I was bowling a step ladder rolloff in a big money singles league and had just purchased an excaliber. We were bowling on a fresh pattern, and when I went to start practicing, waiting for my match, I started with my blue hammer playing about 7 board. Within 5 shots I went from flush strikes to flat 10's then to buckets and washouts while trying to move right to no avail. I got my excaliber out, and immediately went right back to 7 board getting a good reaction to the pocket. I then watched a series of matches where nobody but a lefty could crack 160. I took my excaliber into the championship match and won a close game with a low 200. Doubt if I could have cracked 180 with the urethane
As to the second question, I don't think there is much difference between the modern urethane and the old urethane, except that we routinely screened the old balls down to less than 600 grit. In addition the oil patterns were much shorter and the oil was lower viscosity then, making comparisons difficult.
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I don't think it makes you a Sandbagger. Personally, I haven't bowled in over two years, and I plan on throwing my storm natural in a practice league this summer so I can see how bad I'm throwing it and make improvements. Even though I know my average will increase once I start throwing something reactive, my goal is get to the ball to start coming off my hand again consistently. ;D
I think something lost in all of this is how bowlers work on their game today compared to how they did in the past. I can only speak from my experience of watching my father bowl and what I have encountered. But today's league bowler seems to want to use league sessions as practice sessions. And the above statement is an example of that.
In the past, working on one's game came during practice sessions or pot games. Maybe I was ignorant to what was going on, but I don't remember handicap being a big deal like it is today. I remember being at the center till dawn on the weekends with my dad bowling pot games the whole time. He would even practice at times by himself. He wouldn't have used league as practice since there was always side action going on. It was what paid the bills for much of my youth.
But today's bowler doesn't bowl pot games. Today's bowler doesn't practice. Today's bowler goes to league and goes to tournaments and yet still wants to work on their game. So they justify their not scoring well on purpose as "practice" and this is wrong. If I hear another person say they don't sandbag because they tried to score as high as possible, yet fail to mention they only took urethane with them, I might puke.
And for all those people complaining about lack of members, the above is an example of a big reason. Bowlers used to bowl multiple leagues and practice. Now they only bowl one or two leagues. Don't have time for practice or other leagues. Yet not having time for bowling isn't a reason for those quitting all together......
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I am a new bowler in my first sanctioned league and my average is 130 and I have people come up to me asking me to be on there team for the summer tour. I don't know what the summer tour is yet but I feel like people are trying to use me because of my average and they know that I am new and not sandbagging and I use a urethane ball. just my $0.02.
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Going back 40 years the biggest difference is money. In the early 70s there wasnt enough money in handicap leagues to justify sandbagging. Today there are bigger money leagues with caps and people are constantly manipulating to get under the cap. Also constantly on the lookout for new bowlers with lots of upside.