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Author Topic: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)  (Read 15519 times)

trash heap

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Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« on: January 17, 2017, 09:14:13 AM »
Just curious,

If someone was to use a Urethane or Plastic Ball in League for some games and other games choose to use Reactive. By USBC Rules.....is this Sandbagging?

I see nothing in the rule about using different bowling balls.

I don't think this person could be called on it.


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Impending Doom

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 09:48:40 AM »
Technically, no. Personally, yes.

Gene J Kanak

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 10:02:50 AM »
By rule, probably not. However, like most things, it has to pass the smell test. If a person uses plastic/urethane while establishing an average, goes to it when games are already won/lost, or switches to the more modern balls when games are close or when money is on the line, then it's pretty clear what's happening, and I think it's wrong.

Now, if the person is using plastic/urethane because he or she thinks it's the best option on given nights, and he or she always appears to be giving the best effort possible, then I don't have a problem with it.

Like many things, even with as obvious as some clowns make it, sandbagging is something that's really tough to prove. 

spmcgivern

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 10:16:04 AM »
Below is the rule commonly cited as the "Sandbagging Rule":
Quote
Rule 17 – Grounds for Disciplinary Action
17a. Unfair Tactics
An individual can be charged with attempting to gain an unfair advantage in league or tournament play
for the following reasons:
1. Directly or indirectly tampering with lanes, pins or bowling balls so they no longer meet USBC
specifications.
2. Misrepresenting an average to gain a greater handicap, or qualify for a lower classification in an
event.
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or
classified competition.

The question comes down to intent which is where things get tricky.  I have seen bowlers use plastic and urethane for the sake of experimentation.  They have other equipment, but decide to use plastic or urethane.  They may try their best to score, but for 99% of bowlers, using reactive equipment will provide more consistent scores and higher average.

I also see stuff like this when bowlers say they have a "league arsenal" and a "tournament arsenal".  I understand if you don't want to risk damage or wearing out or whatever you convince yourself of if you use your best equipment when the stakes are low....

But Rule 17a.3. states you cannot establish an average "below your ability".  Does USBC using the term ability remove equipment from the discussion?  I also understand in order for it to be sandbagging then you have to use this lower average in a manner to gain an advantage.  Perhaps some bowlers don't bowl tournaments.  Maybe they don't take advantage of it.

But in my eyes, a bowler should use whatever equipment available and whatever means available to score as high as possible.

avabob

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 11:22:34 AM »
It all comes down to intent and evidence thereof.   Using plastic or urethane in and of itself is not evidence of intent.  The pattern of how and when such balls are used could be evidence.

DP3

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 11:40:59 AM »
Would half of the league bowlers that are using high end stuff way too aggressive for the league house shot and shooting < 175 be considered sandbaggers as well?

Steven

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2017, 11:45:00 AM »
Would half of the league bowlers that are using high end stuff way too aggressive for the league house shot and shooting < 175 be considered sandbaggers as well?

 
No, that would be called ignorance.  :)

xrayjay

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 12:10:54 PM »
There was a time when I was in the 185-192 range and I wanted to improve my accuracy. I used a urethane and a clear ball and I dropped 5 sticks or so, and I got the finger waving from some league members. I didn't give a rodents booty shake about this people. At the end of the season I ended up with higher average than I expected. over 195, yet I was still accused by the same folks of sandbagging.

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Gene J Kanak

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2017, 12:33:32 PM »
Below is the rule commonly cited as the "Sandbagging Rule":
Quote
Rule 17 – Grounds for Disciplinary Action
17a. Unfair Tactics
An individual can be charged with attempting to gain an unfair advantage in league or tournament play
for the following reasons:
1. Directly or indirectly tampering with lanes, pins or bowling balls so they no longer meet USBC
specifications.
2. Misrepresenting an average to gain a greater handicap, or qualify for a lower classification in an
event.
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or
classified competition.

The question comes down to intent which is where things get tricky.  I have seen bowlers use plastic and urethane for the sake of experimentation.  They have other equipment, but decide to use plastic or urethane.  They may try their best to score, but for 99% of bowlers, using reactive equipment will provide more consistent scores and higher average.

I also see stuff like this when bowlers say they have a "league arsenal" and a "tournament arsenal".  I understand if you don't want to risk damage or wearing out or whatever you convince yourself of if you use your best equipment when the stakes are low....

But Rule 17a.3. states you cannot establish an average "below your ability".  Does USBC using the term ability remove equipment from the discussion?  I also understand in order for it to be sandbagging then you have to use this lower average in a manner to gain an advantage.  Perhaps some bowlers don't bowl tournaments.  Maybe they don't take advantage of it.

But in my eyes, a bowler should use whatever equipment available and whatever means available to score as high as possible.


This gets really hairy. I know some guys who use plastic during league because they don't like the wide open house shots, and they want to actually have to be somewhat accurate/consistent in order to score. In and of itself, that's admirable. However, if they do that during league, which may cause their averages to be a bit lower, and then they bowl tournaments using "normal" equipment, do we now label them as baggers? Not sure.

It's the same thing with leagues that bowl on tough patterns without officially having them classified as Sport. If guys from those leagues go out and bowl tournaments using the averages from that league, are they a bunch of rotten cheaters? This is tough because, on one hand, you could applaud people for actually trying to challenge themselves on tougher patterns and/or by using low-tech balls, but it isn't really fair to then let them go out and blow the doors off of everyone in a handicap tourney because they average 190 on a tough shot instead of 220 on an easy one.

For me, it comes down to intent. Personally, if I bowled in one of those leagues (non-documented Sport) or chose to use plastic/urethane for the sake of challenging myself, thus resulting in a lower average, I don't think I'd bowl handicap events, or I'd report what I'm doing to the tournament directors so that they could rate me properly.

Just as food for thought, this cuts both ways. When I bowl ABT (now RTB) events, I am forced to use my league average 210+ even though I've probably only averaged about 190-195 on the challenging patterns put out on the tournament circuit. I don't complain because I know that's the price of establishing an average on a THS, but it happens nonetheless.

Bowl_Freak

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2017, 12:58:36 PM »
I went thru phases where urethane worked better than reactive for me. Use to throw my Pitch Black/Pitch Blue/Pitch Red everywhere. Only things i could control at the time. People were upset but i was beating their a$$ with urethane just like Svensson does on the PBA tour. If your scores are alot lower throwing them and your not doing anything to adjust, thats considered sandbagging, just like dumping the 10th frame when your down 200.

spmcgivern

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2017, 01:49:44 PM »
Would half of the league bowlers that are using high end stuff way too aggressive for the league house shot and shooting < 175 be considered sandbaggers as well?

There has to be intent, or in this case, the bowler would have to know they are using the wrong equipment on purpose.  If they are ignorant and think they are using the correct equipment, then according to their ability, they are trying to score as high as possible.

There was a time when I was in the 185-192 range and I wanted to improve my accuracy. I used a urethane and a clear ball and I dropped 5 sticks or so, and I got the finger waving from some league members. I didn't give a rodents booty shake about this people. At the end of the season I ended up with higher average than I expected. over 195, yet I was still accused by the same folks of sandbagging.

And for this, the key is highlighted.  Just because you averaged higher than expected doesn't excuse the situation.  If you averaged lower than expected would that be different?  Did you occasionally try different equipment to see if the effort allowed you to be a better bowler?  I am guessing after this season, you were no longer under 200 average.

trash heap

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 02:50:22 PM »
I bowled a mix league one year using Urethane and Plastic. At first struggled a bit, average was on the low side but, eventually brought it up where I was the previous year using reactive.

Pros and cons to Urethane. Pros - Movement on the approach was minor, some nights didn't move at all.
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Gene J Kanak

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 03:01:06 PM »
But the problem I'm having with the responses is why should someone else get to tell me that I can't intentionally make the game more challenging if I want to? I have no access to tough conditions around me, at least not for league. As such, if I chose (I don't) to only use plastic or urethane because I wanted to make it so that I had to be better with accuracy and speed, why is that wrong? Yes, I know that using plastic or urethane may make my average lower, but as long as I'm not doing that with the intent of then using that lowered average to clean up at tournaments or to snatch up prize money in the league, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that? I don't like the idea of someone telling me how I have to play the game. If I want to make the game tougher by using older equipment, why should that be a bad thing, again, as long as I'm not doing it so that I can use that lower average later to blast everyone in handicap events?

spmcgivern

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 03:22:30 PM »
But the problem I'm having with the responses is why should someone else get to tell me that I can't intentionally make the game more challenging if I want to? I have no access to tough conditions around me, at least not for league. As such, if I chose (I don't) to only use plastic or urethane because I wanted to make it so that I had to be better with accuracy and speed, why is that wrong? Yes, I know that using plastic or urethane may make my average lower, but as long as I'm not doing that with the intent of then using that lowered average to clean up at tournaments or to snatch up prize money in the league, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that? I don't like the idea of someone telling me how I have to play the game. If I want to make the game tougher by using older equipment, why should that be a bad thing, again, as long as I'm not doing it so that I can use that lower average later to blast everyone in handicap events?


I think you answered your own question.  As a league member, if someone uses urethane/plastic for every shot thrown in that league, then I have no qualms. 

As a tournament bowler though, if someone throws every shot in league with urethane/plastic and then uses different equipment in tournament settings, then I have issues with that.  Only thing, I don't know what that bowler uses in league.  This is why this example would be near impossible to claim wrongdoing. 

Gene J Kanak

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Re: Bowling with Urethane or Plastic in League (SandBagging?)
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 03:29:36 PM »
I think, for me, it comes down to whether or not that bowler bowls handicap events. Even if I did use plastic or urethane during league, I would probably switch during tournaments unless the shot called for those types of balls. It's kind of like using league as a glorified practice session rather than counting it as true competition. However, then I wouldn't bowl handicap events, or I'd let the tournament director know where my average should truly be. I guess I'm just saying I have no problem with someone wanting to make the game harder unless their intent is to then go out and use the inflated handicap to gain an advantage. That is BS.