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Author Topic: Can you really notice a difference  (Read 8306 times)

302efi

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Can you really notice a difference
« on: June 24, 2008, 11:57:30 PM »
I see all this talk on here about drillings and people noticing a big change from pin over ring to pin under ring or something similar. I see and hear this same thing all the time at the bowling centers as well.

To watch these guys bowl, theres no way they can even tell which board they hit, let alone what a little pin change will do....LOL !

Anyone else read these kinda post or here people talk about this and just wonder, WTF?
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I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

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Edited on 6/25/2008 7:57 AM

 

tenpin477

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2008, 12:37:31 PM »
not on a THS

302efi

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 12:39:29 PM »
quote:
not on a THS


Ture...What if the 177 avg is on a THS ?

The should someone worry about pin up vs pin down ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

mrbowlingnut

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 12:47:49 PM »
Chad i am somewhat disagree I beat an ex touring pro last week, you know why because I was able to power down in ball strength and stay right in my wheel house shot 677 at him to his 657. He keep saying how accurate I am and that would give up all his revs to gain my accuracy. I missed the pocket twice and blew 2 easy spares otherwise a great set for me, he threw the giant hook carried some off hits and missed a few 10 pins from having too much hook.

Nice guy like him alot but sometimes accuracy prevails and average is not always a perfect gauge of how good the bowler is or is not.

Trust me there alot of older bowlers in my boat that are actually awesome bowlers that do not score anymore, maybe it is ball speed or just age. It could be an injury that prevents them from carrying better like my case, I have bowled on Paul Renteria's team and Rick Benard subbed for David Haynes scratch team. Why because they know I give 110 percent and just grind out decent games rarely do I shot 700 plus but grind out a 600 for them about every set.


quote:
Barry but avg is the knows way we measure ability skill, no ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

laddog54

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 01:00:23 PM »
Three SD-73 Classics three drillings: stacked, rico, pin over middle finger(5"). The difference in the amount of hook is small, the diffence in shape and carry can be great. I can adjust from one to the other easily because I know what the cover is going to give me it is just which core placement gives me the correct angle. Can usually use one of the three on everything except flood or desert.
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REvans284

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2008, 02:04:43 PM »
I have 2 balls just like this, and while I didn't intend to just get 2 of the same ball and drill them like this, another member on this site did and I bought them off of him for pretty cheap to try.  

They are both FMG's by Visionary and one is pin up, and the other is pin down and the CG placement is in about the same spot on both balls.  As far as total board coverage, when they both have the same cover prep they both hook about the same amount of boards.  The difference is the shape.  The pin up ball is very much cleaner through the front part of the lane and much more angular on the backend than the pin down ball.  

I currently have the pin up at 2000 grit and the pin down at 800 so they don't even really react the same right now, but even with the surface prep the same they have a very different shape.  Personally, I like the pin down ball and its banana-ish shape.  For me I get a much more consistant read on the lane and can stay on top of the changes I am making easier.  And I took the other one up in grit so that I can play deeper when the head oil starts to go (mostly sport/PBA experience shots) but get the recovery when it hits the friction.

I'm very happy with both balls.  But as for the total board coverage being close to the same keep in mind I'm a med/low tracker with a 3/4in. up PAP measurement so the pin strength is fairly close to the same on both balls even though one pin is above the RF and the other is below.  (4 5/16 > , 3/4 ^ - cut to cut hand span is also short at 3 15/16 middle 3 5/8 ring)

Later,

REvans284

bowlallthetime

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2008, 03:48:28 PM »
mrbowlingnut, Your accuracy DOES affect your bowling average.  If you are an accurate player, you will not average only 177...especially on a THS.  Averaging 177 means you are missing 2 spares/game.  An accurate player won't leave 2 splits per game on average or miss 2 single pin spares per game on average.  If you are truly accurate, but lack the power and revs, you should still average 190 because you are accurate enough to get your spares.

LuckyLefty

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2008, 03:55:08 PM »
Is it possible to be accurate on your strike ball and not accurate on spares.....


Now let me ponder..........hmmmmmmm?

REgards,

Luckylefty
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mrbowlingnut

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 04:10:24 PM »
We all will have opinions of these like anything, but if you throw it let's say 8 times over the 8 or 9 board but you do not ever get out the ball the same how would you expect to strike on more than say 4 shots a game on average???

Now it is very possible to being more inaccurate on say 10 pins, i do this myself the angle of walking across the lane from board 39 and hitting board 19-20 for 10 pins. For what ever reason it cause me great knee pain and I usually flag off about 3-4 a night, this also happens to me on 7 pins but I usually make these because on THS I just hook into them from the right side.

This is my case and do not know Dizzy but from a video or two he has posted, he does throw it ok not great to be honest. Nice guy that he is just being pretty honest here, very smart guy but best bowler not close and that goes for me in the group also. I know that I am accurate and see plenty of old guys who roll it very nice but have lost there carry and ball speed, so average should never be the key to comparisons.

I went down to Wagon wheel lanes in Buena Vista once on vacation averaged 247 a game on there cake shot, does that make me a 247 average????

Also have averaged lower 190's here in Vegas at the Strike Zone, cannot for the life of me at that place. Missed alot of 10 pins there so I guess you could call me inaccurate at 10 pins there.





Edited on 6/25/2008 4:11 PM

bowlallthetime

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2008, 04:25:20 PM »
When I say someone is accurate, I also include the ability to consistently throw the ball the same way.  I wouldn't say someone is accurate if they can always hit the same mark but can't consistently release the ball the same way.

mrbowlingnut

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2008, 04:29:02 PM »
Well I agree with your point then, it is possible to hit the same board 8 out of 10 times and never let go of it the same way. I had this problem with all the bad pro shops in Vegas before going to K & K where they fixed my grip the correct way over the last few years.


qstick777

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2008, 04:41:51 PM »
I guess it depends on who is talking or what they are talking about.

Read the CG debate and guys will say that a CG shift causing a 2ft difference in the breakpoint is "insignificant."  Those same guys will tell you that the new ball in a product line is "about 2-3 boards stronger," or "is about 2 feet longer" than the previous model.

I guess 2 feet only matters when it helps sell bowling balls.




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JessN16

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2008, 06:55:50 PM »
Average is irrelevant in being able to tell a difference in drillings. For that matter, you don't even have to be a bowler, period. You can watch someone else and as long as you know how accurate they are (say, when watching a pro bowl) you can see the difference in their ball downlane.

Anyone with some mental ability regarding layouts want to tell me you can't watch Chris Barnes throw a pin-down, 2-inch pin-to-PAP ball and notice the difference when he switches to a pin-up, 6-inch pin-to-PAP ball? I would hope you can. Surely in person, but even on television.

As to one's own game, yes, I believe anyone with even a modicum of skill would notice the difference in reaction shapes if they took the time to learn about it. That's a learned skill that is separate from bowling ability -- and it's one that not every bowler, even some very successful bowlers, ever learn or care to learn. I know 170-average bowlers who know far more about their arsenals than some 230 guys.

What average is, without dragging the oil pattern into it, is a measurement of two things: (1) Your physical bowling ability, and (2) how well you can apply what you know mentally to the sport.

I average right around 190 and can definitely tell the difference in layouts. The reason I average 190 is because I can't repeat the shot well enough and my house doesn't lay out a fluff shot that covers everything up. When I miss, I tend to pay for it, and my knowledge of surface/layout/etc. lets me know exactly how I'm going to end up paying for it before the ball gets halfway down the lane.

Jess

Kid Jete

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2008, 07:25:05 PM »
Someone could be very accurate and also very ignorant at the same time.  Maybe they hit their mark almost all the time and put a nice roll on the ball but are playing the complete wrong area of the lane and are too ignorant to adjust.  That would definately keep your average down.  I highly doubt too many of these people exist but I'm sure they are out there.  Kinda like having a perfect putting stroke but you can't read greens to save your life.

REvans284

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2008, 09:50:20 PM »
quote:
mrbowlingnut, Your accuracy DOES affect your bowling average.  If you are an accurate player, you will not average only 177...especially on a THS.  Averaging 177 means you are missing 2 spares/game.  An accurate player won't leave 2 splits per game on average or miss 2 single pin spares per game on average.  If you are truly accurate, but lack the power and revs, you should still average 190 because you are accurate enough to get your spares.


I dis-agree with this statement.  And I think alot of it depends also on the conditions that you bowl on (sport VS ths).

My fiance isn't a power bowler, and doesn't get tons of revolutions on a bowling ball either.  But she is deadly accurate.  Before the age of 18 she'd picked up the 7-10 (twice), and the big 4, shot multiple all spare games, and a few clean series'.  She still doesn't average 200+ but is holding strong at the mid 190 range.  

People who generate power CAN spray the lane on a house shot and carry and score reguardless of how terrible their spare shooting or accuracy is.  She can plow the pocket consistantly on some days (mostly when theres more volume of oil) and leave alot of flat 10s among other leaves but still be rewarded at times also.  

When there is friction out there though and it helps aid the drive her ball has, she's easily capable of averaging 220+.  But we don't have the funding to keep buying a ton of equipment for her and get a ton of stuff layed out for her to cover a wide variety of conditions.  We've tried 3 different high performance balls for longer/thicker volume patterns in 1 1/2 years with moderate success, but are still trying to find something we can get to pop for her or read the midlane sooner.

To make a long story short though, we haven't found a way for her to average "high" on a house shot.  But when the sport shot is layed down her average doesn't drop much (if any in some cases) because of her accuracy.  Accuracy counts for alot, but on a house shot it doesn't mean you are accurate.

Later,

REvans284


bowlallthetime

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Re: Can you really notice a difference
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2008, 11:47:50 PM »
REvans284, what part of my statement did you disagree with?  I stated even a player w/o high revs can still average 190 if they are accurate...that seemed to describe your fiance's game.  I said a 177 average bowler isn't very accurate because you still have to have 6 opens a night (with no doubles) to average 177.  I also do not thing picking  up a 7-10 two times shows that you are accurate...7-10 pick ups are lucky, PERIOD.  Big 4 pick ups also involve a lot of luck.  I would never judge the accuracy of someones game based on how many 7-10s they have picked up.

I also never said a 177 bowler was not knowledgable about bowling.  I said someone averaging 177 shouldn't snicker at other bowlers not being able to hit their mark 2x in a row.  I'm sure there are many bowlers under 200 who know a lot more about pin placements and the dynamics of bowling balls than I do.  I admitted earlier to not knowing a lot about drillings of balls.

Edited on 6/25/2008 11:50 PM