Author Topic: Can you really notice a difference (Read 7957 times)

302efi · « **on:** June 24, 2008, 11:57:30 PM »

I see all this talk on here about drillings and people noticing a big change from pin over ring to pin under ring or something similar. I see and hear this same thing all the time at the bowling centers as well.

To watch these guys bowl, theres no way they can even tell which board they hit, let alone what a little pin change will do....LOL !

Anyone else read these kinda post or here people talk about this and just wonder, WTF?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

Edited on 6/25/2008 7:57 AM

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #31 on:** June 26, 2008, 02:57:31 AM »

quote:
I averaged 221 this year, and I'll admit, I don't know much about pin placements. I go to my driller, and explain to him the reaction I am looking for, and he drills it.

Its funny how some of the posters in this thread talk about others who can't hit the same mark twice. For example, Dizzy said the following:

"Even though I must admit that I have to smile (internally) when I see bowlers who cannot hit any mark on the lane twice show their high end balls with pride"

Dizzy's stats from his profile:
"Average(s) and personal records:
Official 2006/07 DBU average: 177,2"

With a high average of 177, you don't really have a right to talk about others not being able to hit their mark 2x in a row. You probably can't either, and thats why you're at 177.

I have no problem hitting my mark 2x in a row....3x is a little tough.

It is not a shame to have a 211 average without having a clue what happens with the ball on the lanes

I never claimed that I could hit my mark perfectly, either, I know how mediocre my game is.

But coming back to your post: even though I am "only" a 180 average bowler (rising), I put much thought, learning effort and experimenting into getting to know equipment and the theoretical basis of bowling. I consider this factor to be very important, to know what you do on the lane, and I admit that I might have a rather cerebral than pragmatic approach to the game. But that's not the point, I can just tell my point of view.

And if I do not have a right to make a personal statement, then I think any bowler who has no idea about what and how his/her ball rolls and why has even less. That's the difference between "scoring" in bowling, or "playing".
Let me confirm that an average hardly tells you anything about a player's level of knowing or understanding what he or she and/or the respective ball actually does on the lane.

I like to know what my ball is actually doing, and why, and how I can optimize its potential, and I see that it gives me a certain edge in difficult situations and makes arsenal building easier. And having an eye for ball reactions is just one part of it, also to help team mates in league or tournament to make sound adjustments.
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dizzyfugu · « **Reply #32 on:** June 26, 2008, 03:02:46 AM »

quote:
This is my case and do not know Dizzy but from a video or two he has posted, he does throw it ok not great to be honest. Nice guy that he is just being pretty honest here, very smart guy but best bowler not close and that goes for me in the group also. I know that I am accurate and see plenty of old guys who roll it very nice but have lost there carry and ball speed, so average should never be the key to comparisons.

Thank you, and that's just how I see it, too. I am NOT the best bowler, just look at my style video in my profile. I have no problem with contructive critique, that's what it is for. I am still trying to improve in the execution and simply lack time for frequent training - I am sure I could be better, especially the 2-spares-per-game lack is my problem (half of them splits). So true...

But that does not prevent me from trying to become knowledgeable about ball dynamics and having a keen eye on ball reactions.

Bowl well!
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dizzyfugu · « **Reply #33 on:** June 26, 2008, 03:04:53 AM »

quote:
Average is irrelevant in being able to tell a difference in drillings. For that matter, you don't even have to be a bowler, period. You can watch someone else and as long as you know how accurate they are (say, when watching a pro bowl) you can see the difference in their ball downlane.

Anyone with some mental ability regarding layouts want to tell me you can't watch Chris Barnes throw a pin-down, 2-inch pin-to-PAP ball and notice the difference when he switches to a pin-up, 6-inch pin-to-PAP ball? I would hope you can. Surely in person, but even on television.

As to one's own game, yes, I believe anyone with even a modicum of skill would notice the difference in reaction shapes if they took the time to learn about it. That's a learned skill that is separate from bowling ability -- and it's one that not every bowler, even some very successful bowlers, ever learn or care to learn. I know 170-average bowlers who know far more about their arsenals than some 230 guys.

What average is, without dragging the oil pattern into it, is a measurement of two things: (1) Your physical bowling ability, and (2) how well you can apply what you know mentally to the sport.

I average right around 190 and can definitely tell the difference in layouts. The reason I average 190 is because I can't repeat the shot well enough and my house doesn't lay out a fluff shot that covers everything up. When I miss, I tend to pay for it, and my knowledge of surface/layout/etc. lets me know exactly how I'm going to end up paying for it before the ball gets halfway down the lane.

Jess

Great post, and similar to my case

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Grayson · « **Reply #34 on:** June 26, 2008, 03:41:41 AM »

the trick... just to sum it up... is to get a drilling for certain equipment to work on a certain condition for a certain type of bowler.

simple?

By far not!

Do I see a difference?

Hell! YEAH!

I have had two balls with a different coverstock and a different core layed out different and ran at full speed into the "haha gotcha" wall of ignorance... my own that was.

Both balls did the very same movement on the lanes! Believe it or not the only slight difference was in one board more or less hook and the solid was... if though... a tad... but almost unnoticable smoother... but really not noticable.

what I want to say with that is:
Knowing your stuff has never hurt and having a plan is almost everytime better than just getting there and trying... getting back... get a new ball... try again... and so on.
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mrbowlingnut · « **Reply #35 on:** June 26, 2008, 11:45:33 AM »

Well i hijacked your post but it turned out to be a great post nonetheless, to me it proves that you need to all realize there are 160-200 bowlers that are far better at knowing ball characteristics and study the game much harder than naturally gifted players might.

Not all naturally gifted bowlers have rocks between the ears but alot of staff players are dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to there drilling layouts and surface preps.

You would be surprised of how many will say my driller punches it and I have no clue of what my pap is?

My top average guy in my league last year had 3 800's including a 867 but the guy did not even know what ball he was using. It was the Cell but he told me that he said he wanted a strong ball and that's what they sold him, well Duh I thought.

Never bothered to ask him his layout just walked over and looked at the ball myself but without knowing his exact pap, only could estimate it from seeing his track. Guy throws it great but does he care to expand his knowledge of the Game??? Of course not he is just that good without even trying, so does average really mean jack sh1t???

Yes and no for all purposes it has too but for better yourself it means nothing to me, I am usually in the top 8-10 guys a night out of 120 bowlers for series. I know if I was not injured permanently from having only 10 percent of cardlidge left, that i would move up to the top 2-3 guys but having no leverage I am forced to live with my body is able to do weekly.

It is reason I hardly bowl any tournaments, long formats eat me up from too pain and for it some guys say i am wannabe locally. Trust me I want to kick your azz bowling every time I shoe up, no matter if i know you are better or not. From bowling against much better guys I learned to adopt this thought process or get run over.

bowlallthetime · « **Reply #36 on:** June 26, 2008, 05:32:06 PM »

Dizzy, I didn't say that I did not know ANYTHING about my bowling balls. I know which are drilled to go long, which are for heavier oil, shorter patterns, etc. I do know the difference between certain pin placements, but I am just not as knowledgable as many other bowlers when it comes to PAPs, and laying out balls for the best reactions.

There is nothing wrong with being a 180 average. I said you should not snicker at other bowlers who can't hit the same mark time after time...especially when u are in the same position.

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #37 on:** June 27, 2008, 03:06:39 AM »

quote:

You would be surprised of how many will say my driller punches it and I have no clue of what my pap is?

Well, I'd confirm this rather shocking observation from the local area. I have 3 ball drillers/pro shops close by. One is a real expert (Brunswick staffer, national team member, premier league, and a very nice person, too), and I was lucky to come across him when I started with bowling without ANY clue.
He took time, made excellent measurements, did a very good counselling job (I learned to appreciate his expertise later when I learned more about balls and the game as such) and did not try to sell me anything. I am still his customer, and know for sure why, because I have seen what the other pro shops which are even closer by my home "do".

One is a hobby pro shopper at a house where open bowling rules. He even does training, but I highly doubt he has any license. I have seen the balls he drilled, and he has for example ruined a bowler's complete arsenal and game by drilling the balls for a lefty (while the player is a righty)! The error just came out when the poor player searched help at another pro shop, wondering why the balls did not recat anyway or why the fingers and thumb would hurt... Can you believe THAT? Sure, she did not get any refund on this error. Great customer service, and en ego like a bus

The other local pro shop is actually at my club house, next door, so to say - but I do not trust anyone who just puts label leverage drillings on ANYONE's ball, with strange pin placements too close to the PAP that the ball would rather roll than hook. Does not look to to me like the self-claimed expert...? I am sceptical.

And that's another erason why I wanted (and still want) to learn about ball drillings as well as tuning options. There's so much potential in a ball that fits one's game, and on the other side you can easily ruin (or at least render useless) a sporting good that can cost you a whopping $400. Better know what you get, or what you want out of it

--------------------
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Edited on 6/27/2008 3:22 AM

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #38 on:** June 27, 2008, 03:19:05 AM »

quote:
quote:
With a high average of 177, you don't really have a right to talk about others not being able to hit their mark 2x in a row. You probably can't either, and thats why you're at 177.

This is my point. With a 177 avg, can you or do you really need to see what a pin over vs pin under drill does ??
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

Yes, I do. I found the use of different pin positions and ball recations to be very usefuol for me, to biuld up an arsenal that is useable on varying conditions and that truly offers different reactions, so that the balls truly have a right to be in my bag. Still working on it, because it took very long to shake the arsenal down and fill gaps, as well as eliminating balls that are too close to each other reaction- or condition-wise. Maybe I put much thought into that, but I work thoroughly

As a side note, those 177 come from official league play and tournaments with ever-changing (and partly unknown) lanes, plus a slump phase last fall where I only managed to get a 165 average together for 6 weeks. No fun at all, and nothing I am proud of. Since January, my average has gone up steaduily - the highest had been a 210, and I recently played 2 tournaments with a 190 and 195 average, both on rather demanding patterns that were designed to change quickly. In both cases, my knowledge or ideas about the conditions at hand and my arsenal's potential has helped me gain a decisive edge, compensating for my not-so-good delivery. I am not the player who can string 200+ games on demand, but I am able to score and remain competitive while the more pragmatic players who might have higher averages have problems in the longer run. It really pays out.

Since I have not enough time for frequent training, this "compensation" on the theoretical level has become a very good strategy for me - and it is also helpful in league play, when I can support the team with ball recation observations and suggestion about different lines or equipment.
--------------------
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Rev_O · « **Reply #39 on:** June 27, 2008, 05:53:55 AM »

I would notice a difference in when it started to hook, as well as how sharply it hook. Pin higher up, longer and more backend (sharper break), pin down, more of an arc or controlled hook. At least that's what I got out of it when I drilled them like this.
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Rev-O

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #40 on:** June 27, 2008, 06:17:19 AM »

quote:

If you havent got the ability, no use worrying about pin placement. Learn the game, then worry about perfecting it. Fit is number 1, reaction is number 2. How do you know if a ball has the right reaction if you cant get it off your hand clean?

Good point!
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302efi · « **Reply #41 on:** June 27, 2008, 07:35:49 AM »

I'm surprised that everyone kept this on track and it didnt become a total flame-fest as usual

I didnt really want to point anyone out or put th epoint of this post onto any "one" person.

IMO, if someone can't avg at least 190 on a THS, theres no point in knowing what different drills do. On a THS, no matter yoru style or drill, anyone can atleast avg 190. The THS lane conditions pretty much make everyball do the same thing as we know..lol
--------------------

quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

CharlieBrown · « **Reply #42 on:** June 27, 2008, 07:53:17 AM »

quote:
IMO, if someone can't avg at least 190 on a THS, theres no point in knowing what different drills do.

While execution remains the key, surely knowledge never hurts anyone?

--------------------
I'm a THS hack and a ball junkie.

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #43 on:** June 27, 2008, 08:08:57 AM »

And you must have the opportunity to learn - you can hardly judge what different pin positions (or surface preps) can do for you if you e. g. just use or got a label leverage drilling that works for anyone, but hardly give you an edge on a specific condition.

I know drillers/trainers who swear by the idea that this was "enough" until you average 190. But IMHO it is just a focus un execution, neglecting the technical and some intellectual aspects of bowling?
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302efi · « **Reply #44 on:** June 27, 2008, 08:10:04 AM »

quote:
While execution remains the key, surely knowledge never hurts anyone?

To much knowledge of balls and can't apply it in bowling is a bad thing.

It's very easy to get overwhelmed and confused over which ball, suface and layout is very easy in todays game....No apply that to a sub 190 bowler..
--------------------

quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

qstick777 · « **Reply #45 on:** June 27, 2008, 08:12:14 AM »

quote:
IMO, if someone can't avg at least 190 on a THS, theres no point in knowing what different drills do. On a THS, no matter yoru style or drill, anyone can atleast avg 190. The THS lane conditions pretty much make everyball do the same thing as we know..lol

Maybe that's why so many "pro" shops slap a label drill on every ball they sell and call it good?

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Author Topic: Can you really notice a difference (Read 7957 times)

302efi

Can you really notice a difference

dizzyfugu

Re: Can you really notice a difference

dizzyfugu

Re: Can you really notice a difference

dizzyfugu

Re: Can you really notice a difference

Grayson

Re: Can you really notice a difference

mrbowlingnut

Re: Can you really notice a difference

bowlallthetime

Re: Can you really notice a difference

dizzyfugu

Re: Can you really notice a difference

dizzyfugu

Re: Can you really notice a difference

Rev_O

Re: Can you really notice a difference

dizzyfugu

Re: Can you really notice a difference

302efi

Re: Can you really notice a difference

CharlieBrown

Re: Can you really notice a difference

dizzyfugu

Re: Can you really notice a difference

302efi

Re: Can you really notice a difference

qstick777

Re: Can you really notice a difference