win a ball from Bowling.com
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house  (Read 2521 times)

bowl400

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« on: June 26, 2008, 09:49:07 AM »
wondering how many bowlers purposely bowl in a tough house in order to gain an advantage when they bowl handicapped tournaments.  i noticed the leader at a local tournament who averaged over 200 at an easier house 3 years ago, but posted averages the last two years around 180 at a well known tough center.  many of these bowlers also do well in the state tournament every year using those low averages.  sounds like the way to go!
--------------------
Tag Team Coaching success story
Logged

 

trash heap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 10:29:18 AM »
quote:
Sorry, if your intent for switching houses (which is how the original post is phrased) is to gain an advantage in handicap tournaments, it is the definition of sand bagging. Not trying or throwing off is the more often used and more blatant form, but anything you do purposely to gain an advantage is bagging. Like I said, if you're bowling the harder house for any other reason it's not a problem. If you only move to get sticks in a handicap tournament, it's bagging.


I have to agree that this is bagging, but by USBC rules it is not. If this person is bowling their best in the leagues they are in then they are NOT bagging. You can't force someone to be in a league with an easier shot.

The same applies to a bowler that uses only a plastic ball in a league and goes to tournaments with reactive. Is this bagging too? Even if the person admits it, there is nothing you can do.

Maybe have their average adjusted for tournaments but like someone stated earlier it has to be clearly obvious.

A guy with a 185 average goes to two or three tournaments a year and averages in those tournaments 210, 200, 230 is not going to get noticed. Why because it is possible for someone to shoot scores like that.

A guy with a 140 average and does the same thing...you might be able to get something done.
 
Logged
Talkin' Trash!

earlthepearle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 10:44:29 AM »
Here in my area, the cities best bowlers "All" bowl in the Travel League. For some who dont know about this league....its a league where you travel and bowl at different houses around the Metro city. Sometimes every week, most times every two weeks. Six games are bowled, with a max of 8 or 9 bowlers per team.

I said that to say this....Some of those bowlers "only" bowl in that league to keep there averages down. Sandbagging in this league is an understatement. These bowlers who would avg. about 215 or 225 in one house, will avg. about 180 in the Travel League. Dont get me wrong, the Travel League can be tough, but not 180 tough.

When its time for a tournament, they come in with there 180 avg. and just rip the place apart. Is it fair?...Well, USBC says yes, but there needs to be some governing on this issue. Its getting out of hand in my opionion.

Earl

Edited on 6/27/2008 10:48 AM
Logged

tenpin477

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 11:14:47 AM »
The only governing you can do on this issue is to create uniform lane patterns, so this way you can no longer have easy cake china shots. The problem then becomes enforcing it.
Logged

earlthepearle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 11:27:29 AM »
Tenpin, I agree with you 100%. The problem with that is....if you make the shot too tough, then you have the avg. mom and pop bowler 'who bowls for fun and beer only" to complain to management. Then you have people frustrated, and discourage about bowling in this particular house that has uniformed patterns.

I hear what you`re saying, Ive ask that question to center owners before. Their answer was basically, "I dont want to run off my paying customers". I cant say that I blame them, Its a catch-22 situation I believe.

Earl
Logged

KDawg77

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11594
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 11:31:34 AM »
I sucked bad enough this year at a house I use to average 200 in over the previous two seasons. There's no point in sandbagging.
--------------------
Ken
Videos at http://www.putfile.com/k-dawg77
http://www.myspace.com/lefthandedhammerpride
http://khlthe2nd.bowlspace.com
http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?mp=418&ms=2006&s=2006-2007
Logged

Nails

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1703
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 11:36:52 AM »
Some of you aren't reading what's written.  If the INTENT of switching houses was to get more HANDICAP, it's sand bagging.  If the handicap wasn't the reason for the switch, there's no foul.
--------------------
Telling it like it is.
Logged

rvmark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2008, 11:50:45 AM »
I can see both sides of this discussion.  

If someone bowls in a tougher house because they are trying to make themselves a better bowler that does not make them a sandbagger IMO.  Does this give them an advantage in tournaments maybe, but they still have to show up and bowl.

If a bowler moves to a tougher house and bowls their best but averages 20 pins less just to lower their averager for handicap tournaments, by USBC rules he is not a sandbagger.  Do I feel that is fair?  No, but there will always in any sport or game be those that purposely try to tip the scales in their favor.

Mark



Logged

Madiballz23

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2008, 12:15:01 PM »
Actually, an interesting solution to this would be going to an indexing system like golf does with golf courses and player's handicaps. Once a month the bowling center sends in a tape of their house shot, and USBC gives it a "difficulty" index. Then over the season they avg the index together for the months that the league bowled and apply it to all avg's that came out of that house for said months.

You will never have uniformity among houses, but that might be a way to allow for the differences and create less uprising while keeping people in check.

--------------------
First one to leave 15 ten pins wins!
Logged

Krakken

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 438
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2008, 12:15:07 PM »
What ever happened to just showing up and trying to score the highest you can every time?  That is what I do. avg be damned.  Whether is it a THS or a PBA league, or a local tourney.  I try to throw the best ball I can every shot and score the highest I can everytime.

Like Billy Chapel says, For Love of the Game.
--------------------
Speed Kills
When in doubt, move out
Logged

trash heap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2008, 12:31:39 PM »
quote:
What ever happened to just showing up and trying to score the highest you can every time? That is what I do. avg be damned. Whether is it a THS or a PBA league, or a local tourney. I try to throw the best ball I can every shot and score the highest I can everytime.


That is what is happenning in the scenario described by the person who started the topic. They are going to another house knowing their average will be lower thus giving them more handicap. They are trying their best however the shot is tougher so their average is lower. Some think they are sandbagging and it is wrong for them to do it.
Logged
Talkin' Trash!

trash heap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
Re: Sandbagging, tough vs easy house
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2008, 01:00:56 PM »
This is what I don't understand and I think things need to change:

Bowler 1: THS Average - 190, Sport Average - 160
Bowler 2: THS Average - 220, Sport Average - 190

Bowler 1 bowls in THS and Sport League. Goes to handicap tournament (uses a shot tougher than THS) and must use their THS Avg.

Bowler 2 bowls in Sport League but THS league is non-sanctioned. Goes to same tournament and is using their 190 average.

In this scenario Bowler 2's average for tournament is closer and more correct. Bowler 1 has put himself at a disadvantage. In reality why would Bowler 1 want to enter tournament where he knows he is going up against people like Bowler 2. It's NOT right! The system does NOT work.

Average is NOT indication of someone's ability in bowling anymore. It's apples to oranges. A check needs to be put in place.
Logged
Talkin' Trash!
Pages: 1 [2]
« previous next »