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Author Topic: Clean game definition  (Read 17724 times)

ldkelleyb5

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Clean game definition
« on: September 04, 2017, 06:33:44 PM »
If you get 1 mark in the 10th, is it considered a clean game?  I'm fairly sure that if you get a spare and change in the 10th, it should be a clean game, but I'm wondering more about a strike, then, say, a 7 count, then a 2.

Just something I've been wondering about for some time, and everyone seems to have a different answer.
Thanks!
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2017, 01:58:54 PM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on September 07, 2017, 11:20:17 AM
For me it's simply no open frames.  If in the 10th I go X 7-0 I don't consider a clean game or set. If I go X 7/ then I consider it clean.

XX 8 or anything else I consider clean.

^^^^This.  The "moral" or "ethical" non-USBC rule (as defined by our team, and my personal value) I agree with. 

Quote from: ignitebowling on September 07, 2017, 11:20:17 AM
Many can justify not converting on a spare opportunity however they choose.

Appeal to USBC rule book

Quote from: ignitebowling on September 07, 2017, 11:20:17 AM
For any event paying out you certainly need to specify what the requirements are in detail due to varying opinions.

+1
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 02:00:50 PM by Good Times Good Times »
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MI 2 AZ

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2017, 04:36:56 PM »
2a. Definition
A game of American Tenpins consists of ten (10) frames. A player delivers two balls in each of the first
nine frames unless a strike is scored. In the 10th frame, a player delivers three balls if a strike or spare
is scored. Every frame must be completed by each player bowling in regular order.


___________

USBC then considers a clean game to be a strike or spare in each of the ten frames of a game. 


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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2017, 05:00:49 PM »
Quote from: MI 2 AZ on September 07, 2017, 04:36:56 PM
USBC then considers a clean game to be a strike or spare in each of the ten frames of a game.

I think everyone agrees that's what the USBC considers a clean game.  No one has disputed that....you'll never see me say I had a clean night though if I go X9- even if I did by rule.

My "ego" has higher standards than that.   :P  ;D  ;D
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 05:06:33 PM by Good Times Good Times »
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Impending Doom

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2017, 05:07:52 PM »
9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!
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Steven

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2017, 09:30:16 AM »
Quote from: Impending Doom on September 07, 2017, 05:07:52 PM
9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!

 
You're right. It makes no sense to call anything "clean" when you have two chances to knock all 10 pins down, and don't. 
 
This appears to be one of those cases where the USBC waters down a standard to give more bowlers some sense of accomplishment.
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Impending Doom

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2017, 09:49:27 AM »
Quote from: Steven on September 08, 2017, 09:30:16 AM
Quote from: Impending Doom on September 07, 2017, 05:07:52 PM
9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!

 
You're right. It makes no sense to call anything "clean" when you have two chances to knock all 10 pins down, and don't. 
 
This appears to be one of those cases where the USBC waters down a standard to give more bowlers some sense of accomplishment.

Haven't you heard? Everyone is a winner!!!
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JazlarVonSteich

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2017, 10:55:53 AM »
People still don't get it. Those extra balls are not frames. They are only there to fill the scoring requirements. Exactly why they are called FILL balls. There is not an 11th frame. There is not a 12th frame. If you strike, you get 2 bonus balls to add to that count. If you spare, you get one. You still closed the frame with a mark.

Yes, it is not going to make you fill good by missing that "spare". However, it isn't really considered a spare because you will never have a fill ball for it. You can have whatever rules you want for your own version of what is "clean", but USBC has it right. It should not be changed in their rules.

On another note, the requirement for a strike on the last fill ball is absurd any way you look at it. That, most definitely, should not take away from a clean game in any set of rules.
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Steven

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2017, 11:08:33 AM »
Quote from: JazlarVonSteich on September 08, 2017, 10:55:53 AM
People still don't get it. Those extra balls are not frames. They are only there to fill the scoring requirements. Exactly why they are called FILL balls. There is not an 11th frame. There is not a 12th frame. If you strike, you get 2 bonus balls to add to that count. If you spare, you get one. You still closed the frame with a mark.

Yes, it is not going to make you fill good by missing that "spare". However, it isn't really considered a spare because you will never have a fill ball for it. You can have whatever rules you want for your own version of what is "clean", but USBC has it right. It should not be changed in their rules.

On another note, the requirement for a strike on the last fill ball is absurd any way you look at it. That, most definitely, should not take away from a clean game in any set of rules.

 
True. Technically, if you strike the first shot in the 10th, you get 2 remaining fill balls. But the results are shown either as a mark or an open. It's not shown casually as "Fill#1" and "Fill#2". 
 
I don't know why you reject the concept that if you have two chances to knock down 10 pins, you must do so to be considered clean. We've amended the USBC rule in our scratch league to require it. 220+ average bowlers shouldn't need help to win the clean series pot.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 11:14:18 AM by Steven »
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2017, 11:29:53 AM »
Quote from: JazlarVonSteich on September 08, 2017, 10:55:53 AM
You can have whatever rules you want for your own version of what is "clean", but USBC has it right. It should not be changed in their rules.

Quote from: Steven on September 08, 2017, 11:08:33 AM

I don't know why you reject the concept that if you have two chances to knock down 10 pins, you must do so to be considered clean. We've amended the USBC rule in our scratch league to require it. 220+ average bowlers shouldn't need help to win the clean series pot.

Technically there is no actual usbc rulebook rule (look in the book) about what a "Clean Game" is, just like there's no set rule about what a spare leave might be called.

It's just a matter of what is in common usage, The one from the "Bowler's Guide" quoted by the USBC is just the one that's been around for years that is in common usage. That a game has ten frames and having at least one mark in each frame constitutes a clean game.

Now if a Tournament or League specifies some other definition for some pot payoff that's fine, Just remember it doesn't apply everywhere.

and if you happen to win a clean game pot that uses a different definition than what your ethic's dictate, Make sure you stand up for your ethics and turn down the prize money. (Which of course we know nobody would do.)


 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 11:34:19 AM by Aloarjr810 »
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avabob

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2017, 11:37:27 AM »
You can call it anything you want.  If I go 30 clean in nationals I will take my money while anyone is free to tell my how watered down the accomplishment is.  Cant believe a thread runs this long on a case of semantics.  I don't like it when I miss a pin either, but I am a lot more upset when it comes on a ball that costs me a mark rather than a pin or two of count. 
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2017, 12:02:21 PM »
Quote from: Aloarjr810 on September 08, 2017, 11:29:53 AM
and if you happen to win a clean game pot that uses a different definition than what your ethic's dictate, Make sure you stand up for your ethics and turn down the prize money. (Which of course we know nobody would do.)

Wouldn't it be more logical to not enter as opposed to enter and return the money?
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2017, 12:05:05 PM »
Quote from: avabob on September 08, 2017, 11:37:27 AM
If I go 30 clean in nationals I will take my money while anyone is free to tell my how watered down the accomplishment is.

I won't say anything about your accomplishment.

I'd take my money to (as I've satisfied the criteria in that tournament) and tell you how watered down mine is (and was as I've won that 30 clean) though if it had X9-!   ;D

To be fair though my 30 clean was 30 clean according to my personal (and several other excellent bowlers here) definition.
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milorafferty

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2017, 01:05:42 PM »
Quote from: Impending Doom on September 08, 2017, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: Steven on September 08, 2017, 09:30:16 AM
Quote from: Impending Doom on September 07, 2017, 05:07:52 PM
9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!

 
You're right. It makes no sense to call anything "clean" when you have two chances to knock all 10 pins down, and don't. 
 
This appears to be one of those cases where the USBC waters down a standard to give more bowlers some sense of accomplishment.

Haven't you heard? Everyone is a winner!!!

So where are my sprinkles?   ???
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Impending Doom

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2017, 01:48:49 PM »
Quote from: milorafferty on September 08, 2017, 01:05:42 PM
Quote from: Impending Doom on September 08, 2017, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: Steven on September 08, 2017, 09:30:16 AM
Quote from: Impending Doom on September 07, 2017, 05:07:52 PM
9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!

 
You're right. It makes no sense to call anything "clean" when you have two chances to knock all 10 pins down, and don't. 
 
This appears to be one of those cases where the USBC waters down a standard to give more bowlers some sense of accomplishment.

Haven't you heard? Everyone is a winner!!!

So where are my sprinkles?   ???

Pm me your shipping address. I got you, bro.
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avabob

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2017, 02:37:45 PM »
Using 30 clean as a measure of accomplishment is fine if that is what you want.
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