Post by: JOE FALCO on December 24, 2003, 12:14:44 AM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on December 24, 2003, 03:18:15 PM
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15 years and still going strong! 15 years old that is!
DA DA DAAAAAA!! UP UP AND AWAY! TO THE BAT CAVE ROBIN!
Post by: JOE FALCO on December 24, 2003, 03:21:09 PM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: michelle on December 24, 2003, 05:46:49 PM
Post by: JOE FALCO on December 25, 2003, 12:33:03 AM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: michelle on December 25, 2003, 09:08:06 AM
Enjoy the holidays
Post by: seadrive on December 25, 2003, 09:22:59 AM
A ball that only works well on a particular oil (or lack of oil) pattern is said to be "condition-specific". The term is not used to describe a ball that can't handle everything from a flood to dirt. If that were the case, every ball ever made would be "condition-specific".
Joe, you said the Golden Nugget was "condition-specific" because, drilled and prepped to work well on a medium-heavy lane condition, it didn't work well on a medium-dry condition. I asked you if you'd tried a little extra polish on the ball for the med/dry, and you said "no". Actually, you said "NO!!", like that was a crazy idea.
A guy who throws Ebonite might have an arsenal like this:
V2 Strong
V2 Solid
Savage Pearl
Tornado
Is the Savage Pearl a "condition-specific" ball, because the V2 solid is a better choice on med-heavy oil? Is the V2 solid condition-specific because it doesn't handle heavy oil well?
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seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: jkiser01 on December 25, 2003, 09:26:26 AM
It should also be mentioned that certain balls might be more user friendly to one bowler because of his/her style, etc than another bowler..
For me, I actually look for condition specific balls when completing my arsenel.. If that wasn't the case, I would only carry 1 ball everywhere I go..
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If they only made a ball that would carry that d*mn 10 pin..
jkiser01
Edited on 12/25/2003 10:26 AM
Post by: jkiser01 on December 25, 2003, 09:39:39 AM
I agree with you 100%.. The purpose of building a arsenel is so you can use each ball on a "specific condition" and not struggle trying to use a Sling Blade on a sport condition shot..
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If they only made a ball that would carry that d*mn 10 pin..
jkiser01
Edited on 12/25/2003 10:38 AM
Post by: seadrive on December 25, 2003, 10:15:10 AM
If you read the ball reviews, "condition-specific" is always used in a derogatory way, and always lowers the reviewer's opinion of the ball under discussion.
The opposite of condition-specific is "versatile". The Ebonite Vortex II is considered a versatile piece of equipment, not because you can use it polished on heavy oil (you can't), but because its coverstock "takes well" to changes like dulling and polishing, and its core seems to work well with its coverstock, regardless of the amount of surface on the ball.
But you still have to match the coverstock prep to the intended lane conditions. If I were to tell you that a sanded V2 worked great for me on a medium/heavy condition, but sucked when I tried to use it on a medium/dry condition, with no alteration made to the coverstock, and then reported that the V2 is "a condition-specific flop", you'd all laugh at me!
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seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: JOE FALCO on December 25, 2003, 11:01:11 AM
I asked you if you'd tried a little extra polish on the ball for the med/dry, and you said "no". Actually, you said "NO!!", like that was a crazy idea.
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Where you got that CRAZY IDEA notion .. I'll never understand .. the only words I wrote in reply to your question was "NO".
In another posting (same topic) I wrote .. that you were a better man then me if you could ADJUST THE SURFACE whenever you come to a different lane condition .. and I STILL SAY THAT! Why do the MANUFACTURERS prepare the ball for one CONDITION then suggest you can adjust it for another .. seems STRANGE to me! Guess I'm the only one that thinks that's strange! How do you get it back to the original condition?
Yes I buy balls for different LANE CONDITIONS .. however when I SPEND AS MUCH AS REQUIRED FOR A LANE 1 BALL I EXPECT A LITTLE VERSATILITY .. other wise WHERE'S THE VALUE? So many balls out there FOR SPECIFIC CONDITIONS .. do you need ONE on a SPECIFIC CONDITION that it's worth paying more for? If someone tells me again .. NEVER MIND ..
I think we are all saying the same thing about SPECIFIC CONDITION .. but some want to bend it a little!!!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: no1bucsfan on December 25, 2003, 11:23:33 AM
If it's heavy oil, throw it slower and rev the heck of it, if you can't get to the pocket, throw it in tighter.
If it's desert dry, then throw it 20 mph, take all the hand out of it, and throw it wide. I still say one ball can handle almost any condition if you can adjust to it.
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You can always hit em hard when you've got the balls
Lefties are the only people in their right minds.
no1bucsfan
Post by: seadrive on December 25, 2003, 11:58:58 PM
Doc, I'm a litle surprised at you. I know you have a soft spot in your heart for Joe, being a fellow old bugger, but really. I gave you a very specific example of what would or would not be described as "condition-specific", but you chose to ignore my example, and instead give me a weather-based analogy. That was pretty weak...
Bottom line, Joe used the Golden Nugget on the lane condition it was intended for, and it was great. To then use it on a condition it was not intended for, without making any changes to the coverstock, and then call it "a condition-specific flop", was completely unjustified.
Joe apparently thinks that because he spent $20-40 more for the Nugget than he would have spent for a high-end ball from a different manufacturer, that it's a dud because it can't cover every lane condition he faces, without even bothering to modify the coverstock.
That's complete nonsense, and you all know it.
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seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: seadrive on December 26, 2003, 12:21:47 AM
Best wishes, and... Merry Christmas!
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seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: charlest on December 26, 2003, 07:21:20 AM
If I get you mad at me, will you two stop arguing over what I think you actually agree on?? Ok, here goes my 2 cents.
We all build an arsenal with ball whose characteristics we believe will allow us to deal with a certain range of oil patterns/lane conditions. Notice I use the word range. I {i]BELIEVE[/i] a ball and its drilling should handle a range of conditions because if each ball covering the next higher and next lower range does not overlap to a small degree, we would have gaps in our coverage.
Does that make any sense?
Let me give an example of two of medium-light thru medium thru medium heavy oil patterns. (I eliminate dry and heavy for the sake of simplicity.) Ignore for the tie being drillings or surface preparations for different styles of bowlers.
1:
Medium-heavy: V2 Strong
medium: V2 Sanded
Medium-light: V2 Pearl
The V2S cover medium-heavy but also extends its operating range down into the medium range so that when there is a lane transition, you will have a chance to recognize some leaves that (should) tell you change balls. For righties, these signs might be 4 pins or even worse 6/10s. Then you know to move deeper with your feet and target, OR if you're already too deep, change to the V2 Sanded.
The V2P covers medium-light oil. It should also cover a tiny bit into the medium range, which it would normally be able to do. If you start leaving pins that (should) indicate that there's carrydown, like weak 10 pins or 2 pins, AND maybe you are already to far outside to move further, then it's time to change to the V2S.
Example #2:
Medium-heavy: Dyno-Thane Element
Medium: Thing Returns
Medium-light: Vendetta Pearl
The same scenarios, that apply to the V2 series above, apply to these Dyno-Thane balls.
EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE:
There are balls that can be used over wider range of conditions. There are many and various factors that contribute to this ability, as well as the bowler's ability and the lane conditions. If I may be so bold as to specify me as an example in only one case, Please see my post in the Dyno-Thane forum re: Praise for Soaker Coverstock, which is really praise for the design of the Element. (This is not meant as an advertisement!) I am not an especially good bowler, but I was able over a shocking 3 week period to use an Element over a huge range of medium-light to true heavy oil patterns. No one was more shocked than I was and I did use some alternative release, by necessity, only because the appearance of these conditions was a shock to me.
Anyway, such balls, ones that are more generic, are usually capable of covering medium to medium-heavy, like the Element, or medium-light to medium, like the Fire Quantum and the Thing Returns. Generic drilling are, of course, those without unusual pinpoisitons, like pin on the axis or pin over the middle finger hole.
JOE FALCO,
Your Golden Nugget, as we had talked, for your release & delivery style, would be more generic with a slightly stronger drilling, but since the cover of the GN is relatively stronger than the core, it should, IN GENERAL, still cover medium-heavy and extend enough dow into the medium range to be fairly useful to you.
Now, be mad at me; not at each other, as my opinion differs from y'all's. I below in overlapping ranges. Yet I still use balls more than I use hand releases to adopt to changing lane conditions, although I do move feet and target a lot more than either of the other two changes.
Enough! My fingers and brain are still tired from Christmas.
Oh, and Merry Christmas, again.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: JOE FALCO on December 26, 2003, 07:39:41 AM
My exception with the OTHER BOWLER is the ADJUSTING SURFACES .. I am NOT asking your opinion on this (I do not WISH to drag you in) .. my thoughts are that ADJUSTING SURFACES is not beneficial if you HAVE FOUND A CONDITION FOR THE BALL!
Thank you for your comments .. I appreciate them and respect them.
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: scotts33 on December 26, 2003, 09:22:14 AM
Scott
Post by: seadrive on December 26, 2003, 10:09:32 AM
Notice you said that each ball overlaps the condition just above and just below it. What Joe said is that he tried to get his GN to cover two completely different conditions, not a condition in transition. When it didn't work out on the too-dry condition, he labeled it "a condition-specific flop". That's my only problem here.
Joe, I really am not advocating that you go around slapping polish on every ball you own, and then sanding them all a day later. I only asked if you had tried polishing the ball before using it on the medium/dry shot, because it was unreasonable to expect it to work as well on that shot as it did on the medium/heavy, without at least a little help to get it down the lane.
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seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl