BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: six pack on August 17, 2017, 05:15:37 PM
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Do core shapes matter? Do you think they make a difference? Not so much the number's but the shape of the core?
It seems to me or at least I got it in my head that they do despite the rg and diff numbers.
What say you?
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I think so. Almost all of my favorite balls have had somewhat similar core shapes. Lightbulb shaped and taller cores seem to work well for me, i think it's because of my low axis tilt and lower axis rotation
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I think so. Almost all of my favorite balls have had somewhat similar core shapes. Lightbulb shaped and taller cores seem to work well for me, i think it's because of my low axis tilt and lower axis rotation
I'm like a chubby chaser,like the fat round ones.
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Doesn't core in general matter more for pin action than ball movement (more the coverstock)?
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AFAIHL,
Taller, thinner cores will have a more sudden or hockey shaped breakpoint than will a rounder shaped core, WHEN used with the same coverstock.
That said,
the coverstock rules; so a tall, thin cores used with one coverstock can have a more smooth or urethane-like breakpoint than will a more rounded core when used with a COMPLETELY different coverstock.
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Core shape totally matters. It's the one thing that I believe when Mo says it.
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Core shape, by itself, can be misleading if densities are not equal throughout the entire core. However, as a general rule, taller cores (higher RG) will rev up less quickly and do what others ahead of me described.
Low RG cores, with their weight more inward, will rev easier, and combined with the right cover can be a friend to those who don't have high revs off their hand. It's usually a good idea to have equipment with a wide variety of cores and cover stocks that compliment what the bowler adds to the ball.
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so big round cores such as the fight don't fit the mold with their core numbers?
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so big round cores such as the fight don't fit the mold with their core numbers?
How do you mean?
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the fight has a big round core but High rg. because it's 2 piece ?
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Core shapes, alone, can be misleading if the densities are changed. If a round core has more dense material outward it would change (raise) the RG.
Remember that when a manufacturer designs a ball they are usually targeting a certain reaction. By raising the RG they can hit their desired reaction further down-lane. For many the higher RG cores kinda "lope" through the front half of lane, and then do their work later.
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the fight has a big round core but High rg. because it's 2 piece ?
I think they put that kind of core in it because the coverstock was so strong. It was needed to get the ball down the lane and not hook too early.
It may have been the final size of the core that almost required it not have filler. But that is a guess on my part.
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Core shape, by itself, can be misleading if densities are not equal throughout the entire core. However, as a general rule, taller cores (higher RG) will rev up less quickly and do what others ahead of me described.
Low RG cores, with their weight more inward, will rev easier, and combined with the right cover can be a friend to those who don't have high revs off their hand. It's usually a good idea to have equipment with a wide variety of cores and cover stocks that compliment what the bowler adds to the ball.
notclay,
Has Brunswick provided (for public consumption) a matrix for core/coverstock strength? Recently, one was posted in the Storm/Roto forum, and it was insightful in understanding why my 2 S/RG pieces (iQFusion/Eternal) fit well for my game. It may help others in addressing your point of having diversity in their arsenals - not just to single out B - all OEMs should do that...
Nice job, sixpack, fascinating topic.
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nycatl,
I have not seen one, but that does not mean one does not exist somewhere. The core dynamics are understood by looking at their numbers (RG, differential, etc) but I have not seen one comparing one cover stock to the next, so to speak.
Having said all that, you can usually get a feel for a ball by watching the videos on the site and reading about what Brunswick was targeting with the ball spec sheets available on the site, too.
Anything they do has to be adjusted by the bowler for the conditions they face. For example, what Bowler A feels is heavy oil can differ greatly from what Bowler B bowls on. My house shot would be a FLOOD compared to what so many guys on this site see on league night...
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The reason I brought up this topic is I like and do well with the large round cores but they tend to roll to hard for me and lose carry. I try surface changes but sometimes it seems I lose the matchup between core and cover. Most tall cores flip hard for me and I don't tend to keep those types in an arsenal for very long,don't even want to try anymore with those core types. I set up one of my wife's old 14lb. Rotogrip Venus and with its high rg and low diff and a big core in it I love the ball. It motors down the lane and rips the rack without the flippy reaction I can get with tall cores. Of course cover and layout plays a roll.
I thinking of trying the storm fight as over the years almost all my favorite balls had large cores, just a tendency I've noticed over the years.
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So I guess I should categorize equipment choices like...
Low to high rg and diff slow response. And
Low to high rg and diff fast response????
These are all just symmetric cores. Asymm is another road.
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So I guess I should categorize equipment choices like...
Low to high rg and diff slow response. And
Low to high rg and diff fast response????
These are all just symmetric cores. Asymm is another road.
Your summary is a perfect example of what I said: coverstock rules core, in general. Of course, the bowler's release is THE major influence, more than either of these
Higher RG balls can be rolly or flippy. Lower RG balls can be rolly or flippy.
More depends on the coverstock and the bowler's release, than the core, in general.
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The reason I brought up this topic is I like and do well with the large round cores but they tend to roll to hard for me and lose carry. I try surface changes but sometimes it seems I lose the matchup between core and cover. Most tall cores flip hard for me and I don't tend to keep those types in an arsenal for very long,don't even want to try anymore with those core types. I set up one of my wife's old 14lb. Rotogrip Venus and with its high rg and low diff and a big core in it I love the ball. It motors down the lane and rips the rack without the flippy reaction I can get with tall cores. Of course cover and layout plays a roll.
I thinking of trying the storm fight as over the years almost all my favorite balls had large cores, just a tendency I've noticed over the years.
I recommend you give the Fight a try, I love it and the Street Fight as well. It does exactly what you say, the huge core revs up and motors down the lane but the reaction is smooth, not jumpy. Plus the core really helps the ball drive through the deck and carry very well. I liken it to a strong urethane with much better carry.
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The reason I brought up this topic is I like and do well with the large round cores but they tend to roll to hard for me and lose carry. I try surface changes but sometimes it seems I lose the matchup between core and cover. Most tall cores flip hard for me and I don't tend to keep those types in an arsenal for very long,don't even want to try anymore with those core types. I set up one of my wife's old 14lb. Rotogrip Venus and with its high rg and low diff and a big core in it I love the ball. It motors down the lane and rips the rack without the flippy reaction I can get with tall cores. Of course cover and layout plays a roll.
I thinking of trying the storm fight as over the years almost all my favorite balls had large cores, just a tendency I've noticed over the years.
I recommend you give the Fight a try, I love it and the Street Fight as well. It does exactly what you say, the huge core revs up and motors down the lane but the reaction is smooth, not jumpy. Plus the core really helps the ball drive through the deck and carry very well. I liken it to a strong urethane with much better carry.
If people treated them like that, they wouldn't be hated overall. I've wanted to get one of them a try, but it's a big risk.
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Great video from EBI on core shape;/symmetry and the affects on bowling ball reaction.
Only thing to consider is this, in any series from release to release like the Black Widow, Gamer Breaker, Warrior etc they never change the core shape to get different ball reactions (too costly) the change coverstocks and surfaces to get the desired reaction.
So even though in this video they have three different style cores use the same cover to get three different reactions.....that is not what they "manufactures" do when changing ball reaction across a line. So maybe you shouldn't over think core shape and core numbers so much?
In different cases I have seen manufactures use different core specs in the same core along with cover changes to get different reactions. Black Widow series, Inferno series, Siege series, Antics series etc. they raised or lowered the RG and Diff, and Int diff in some to get different results using the same shape core.
My biggest suggestion to anyone, especially after watching this video is focus on the manufactures intended purpose for the ball ie light oil,medium oil, heavy etc. Also pay attention to things like "clean", "long", or "midlane" etc as to what the intended conditions maybe. Especially pay attention to the surface finish. Know that it can be adjusted to any finish of sanded through polish no matter if the ball is a solid, pearl, or hybrid coverstock.
Keep it simple
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Seismic made the TSE series of balls. All same cover, but different cores. Look for videos on YouTube of them to see impact of core on reaction.
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I don't think the KISS method has applied in choosing a ball in a long time due to how complex bowling balls have become and I feel it's a bad idea to fall for the simple ideals of ball choice like cover trump's all and just pick the ball for the amount of oil you see. It is far more complex then that with way to many variables involved with bowler stats, ball stats, lane pattern, lane topography and God forbid add a ball spinner and what type of sanding media you use or sanding technique or how long the sanding media last.
I think the Kiss method has left the Building a long time ago.
But the vid on core shapes was helpful even though I've seen it before.Thanks!
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It is not as simple as nor will it ever be, nor did I/we say it was cover trumps all.
Coverstock is the overriding influence, but that does not mean that core does not have any influence. Of course it does.
But you missed the very important essential of ball choice that ignitebowling emphasized: You must take into account, first and foremost, what the manufacturer intended to be the ball reaction for any one particular ball. Your own bowling release/delivery will affect that essential, as will the drilling. The combination of all that together with the oil pattern/amount on which you bowl, will become your ball reaction for that ball.
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>I don't think the KISS method has applied in choosing a ball
I don't know I just a bought a Hy-Road based mostly on reading about it from people on this board whose opinions I value and because I needed a benchmark with some backend to make up for being speed dominant. The values on paper are valuable and yes I have a spreadsheet of those for all my balls but talking to what works for bowlers similar to me is valuable as well.
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I have found the manufactures describe the balls very good IF you know how to read them. That's the problem.
Seems almost everyone Loved the Hyroad yet despite 3 attempts at this ball I have not. Why? maybe just maybe I didn't understand what and if I should of been using it on?
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I have found the manufactures describe the balls very good IF you know how to read them. That's the problem.
Seems almost everyone Loved the Hyroad yet despite 3 attempts at this ball I have not. Why? maybe just maybe I didn't understand what and if I should of been using it on?
Yeah one shop nearby has loaners to try but for most part there is a you take your chances element. Sometimes buying a ball is not even rational. I have five urethane balls when it would be hard to justify more than one simply because I love throwing them score be damned. Of course quickly have ran out of closet space and didn't want to count on my Scandal Pearl as my benchmark when I do need to score (still a great ball later in a session) so went with the legend.
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I agree that cores matter now, perhaps more than ever, BUT it's the ball's cover that touches the lane surface and reads friction, etc. All the hocus pocus in the world won't change that. ;)
Perhaps the bowler is the ENGINE,
The cover is the TIRES,
And the CORE could be the transmission (helping the power each bowler applies to transfer energy to the tires)?
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As an old physics major, I concur with Notclay's analysis on core shapes/ densities.
He is correct in that a core's shape alone, does not determine its radius of gyration (RG). It is how the core's density is distributed within that core that determines a core's RG. In addition to the core, it is also how the density of the coverstock surrounding the core is distributed, that will also affect a ball's overall RG numbers. That's why is is more accurate to look at the core's specs, rather than the core's design, in getting a better understanding on how a ball's construction will generally be expected to react.
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I don't think the KISS method has applied in choosing a ball in a long time due to how complex bowling balls have become and I feel it's a bad idea to fall for the simple ideals of ball choice like cover trump's all and just pick the ball for the amount of oil you see. It is far more complex then that with way to many variables involved with bowler stats, ball stats, lane pattern, lane topography and God forbid add a ball spinner and what type of sanding media you use or sanding technique or how long the sanding media last.
I think the Kiss method has left the Building a long time ago.
But the vid on core shapes was helpful even though I've seen it before.Thanks!
Ever been to a demo days event? Very simple.
People focus on undrilled core numbers and think they know what the end results will be. Most don't understand the affects of flare on ball reaction.
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Charlest already said it, but worth repeating. Surface is more important than core, but release ( axis rotation, rev rate, ball speed) trumps shell and core.
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Bowling ball have NOT become complex...the confusion created by marketing & advertising by the manufactures is the biggest culprit...
Bowling ball technology has not advanced since 1997...particle/pro-active covers...
It still very simple-surface dictates length, pin to pap dictate flare potential & bowler is the ultimate decider
Equipment is a tool or enhancer of the bowlers attributes
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Bowling ball have NOT become complex...the confusion created by marketing & advertising by the manufactures is the biggest culprit...
Bowling ball technology has not advanced since 1997...particle/pro-active covers...
It still very simple-surface dictates length, pin to pap dictate flare potential & bowler is the ultimate decider
Equipment is a tool or enhancer of the bowlers attributes
So do core shapes matter despite the RG and Diif numbers?
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Diff is secondary RG is third...after surface
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OK I have to be the guy that brings in the hyroad and timeless. Same cover stock, same finish, very close to the same core numbers. Drastically different reactions. The difference is the hyroad core vs dual drive core. How does the dual drive core create such a large back end reaction than the hyroad core?
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Drastically different? How so?
Unless bowling balls are thrown the same amount of times under the same conditions, on a CATs to eliminate visual perception...I do not believe a statement such as drastically different can be made
Now against a SureLock due to cover maybe but...
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OK I have to be the guy that brings in the hyroad and timeless. Same cover stock, same finish, very close to the same core numbers. Drastically different reactions. The difference is the hyroad core vs dual drive core. How does the dual drive core create such a large back end reaction than the hyroad core?
Sure do hear a lot more good things about the Hy-Road compared to the Timeless. Core cover stock synergy is very important and your example proves it but probably not in the way you meant. Seems like it is easier for a core to somewhat screw up a good cover stock than accent its strengths.
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Diff is secondary RG is third...after surface
Kind of off the topic, but can RG be looked at in tiers? For example the "early" category of 2.46-2.5, the "mid" category of 2.51-2.55, and the "late" category of 2.56+? To boil it down a bit is there really that much difference between 2.46 and 2.49?
I'm sure this could be done with differential too, but from my experience I think the differences in differential ranges are more obvious than the differences in RG ranges. Which is part of why differential would be ahead of RG I assume.
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Shell is way more important, but I have noticed thatvcirevdhell matchups are very noticeable. Best example for me is Marvel series. I hated the original Marvel, but like many people the marvel pearl was a great piece for me
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OK I have to be the guy that brings in the hyroad and timeless. Same cover stock, same finish, very close to the same core numbers. Drastically different reactions. The difference is the hyroad core vs dual drive core. How does the dual drive core create such a large back end reaction than the hyroad core?
Because due to the shape of the core, you're creating much different numbers after drilling. The numbers after drilling is what matters. I am willing to bet anything that after drilling (with the same layout) the Timeless will create more overall diff and a higher intermediate diff (after drilling). This is why you see such a stronger response downlane from the Timeless.
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Ahh thank you for the responses! Drastically different may have been a bit much, but your explanations made a lot of sense
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light bulbs for me too, weird thing to note.
storms high end shapes havent worked for me really since the virtual days.....
the codes seem to tho.
crux nope
havent tried the lock
vivid lucid werent that good
im sure im forgetting a few
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Diff dictates flare potential which creates traction thus more important than RG
The Timeless is comparable to the Brunswick Quantum theory of multi densities covers...you have a core that is wrapped by a lighter materials surrounding it and then a cover material...core numbers stay more intact from weight to weight
Drilling numbers always change but too many believe it creates some magical reaction...
Add 80 grit and any ball will react
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Funny, just shows the difference in styles. I didn't like the Vivid either, but Lucid was s great long oil tournament ball for me. Not unlike the AZO Area that had the same core.
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I started this topic because I've been trying to find something high rg that wasn't made for dry and wasn't flippy. I like low rg stuff because it's easier to control for me it seems but I have problems getting them down lane once the shot breaks in on one of the houses I bowl at. I'm going on my third season at this place and have two balls I like a lot here, a Bad Intentions and a Roto Grip Venus. The BI is my heavy oilier and shot shaper and the Venus is for the dry.
Anyways over the years I've learned that I favor the big round cores more but they always seem to come low rg,not the Venus and I absolutely love that ball. High rg,round fat core... But yes I agree it's not the be all end all as other stuff works well on different patterns and lanes. Thanks to all that chimed in to share their knowledge as it's much appreciated.
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Surface will always dictate length but you need to look at slower response covers...something like a Rhino or Turbo/R or Nitrous...even if your rev rate is high enough and the friction strong enough...you can used sanded polyester with a strong weight hole to close down your angles
It's all abt response to friction and angles matching up
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I started this topic because I've been trying to find something high rg that wasn't made for dry and wasn't flippy. I like low rg stuff because it's easier to control for me it seems but I have problems getting them down lane once the shot breaks in on one of the houses I bowl at. I'm going on my third season at this place and have two balls I like a lot here, a Bad Intentions and a Roto Grip Venus. The BI is my heavy oilier and shot shaper and the Venus is for the dry.
Anyways over the years I've learned that I favor the big round cores more but they always seem to come low rg,not the Venus and I absolutely love that ball. High rg,round fat core... But yes I agree it's not the be all end all as other stuff works well on different patterns and lanes. Thanks to all that chimed in to share their knowledge as it's much appreciated.
You just described the Desert Ops. High RG with more cover than the RG ball you have. Big core, lower diff.
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Storm Fight/Street Fight?
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those 3 are on my list.