BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: avabob on October 20, 2016, 01:52:52 PM
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We are past the point of diminishing returns on power and revs. I say this partly based on Belmos struggles, but partly based on the physics and geometry of of the game in general. Belmontes success has been partly due to his power, but also to a great degree on his versatility. The problem I am seeing is that the super powerful rev rates magnify the impact of lane transitions to the point that super power players simply cant keep up
To me it is no surprise that a player like Rash who has totally revamped his release to minimize axis rotation ( the real culprit in extreme lane transitions ) is starting to dominate.
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I've been saying that for years lol. That's why I'm going towards lighter equipment and still using balls 10+ years old. I don't know how you guys get the top line for your bowling companies. I already have to roll the ball fast as hell just to keep it on the right side of the lane.
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I agree to a degree. We can look at the high-speed, high-rev success of the past 10 years and understand why they were successful. But at the same time, these releases wouldn't have been as successful during other periods.
The current trend of low rotation will be successful for a while until someone takes advantage of the conditions in a different way and then that method will be style du jour.
And at some time in the future, the high-speed, high-rev release can be successful again. It just takes a talent to use it successfully for everyone to copy them.
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My response to this depends on what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that these styles are no longer as valuable/advantageous, or are you saying that it wouldn't do anyone any good to have even more speed and power than guys like Belmo and Tackett because there wouldn't be any added advantage?
Long story short, speed and power are always valuable; however, this game comes down to angles, so you can have all of the speed and power in the world, but if you can't get that to equal a solid footprint on the lane and an appropriate entry angle, it's not going to do you a lot of good.
That's why I laugh when I hear people talk about two-handed bowling like it's cheating. Having speed and revs doesn't do you a lick of good if you're not accurate. Also, there is such thing as too much hook and/or entry angle. That's why you often see the high-rev players using strong equipment and surface. They actually need the ball to bleed a bit so that it doesn't ignore the front of the lane and come in sideways.
Brass tacks, no matter how much speed you use or revs you have, you have to be accurate (at least on challenging conditions), and you have to get your ball to see the lane the right way. If speed and revs alone equaled success, guys like Robert Smith, Rudy Revs, Belmo, Tackett, etc. would win every event they entered.
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Let me clarify. As an old rev challeged stroker I would like nothing better than being able to add 150 rpm and 3mph of ball speed to my game. However somewhere north of 500 revs you hit a law of diminishing returns, especially on flatter patterns. That is why pros are piping it up15 board on the badger rather than trying to over power the oil with lots of surface.
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Yeah, I agree. Again, all of speed and rev rate in the world is only worth so much.
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Also I am not talking about league bowling but rather the game at the highest level where guys are capable of repeating shots with high rev rates. The ability to repeat is diminished in importance when every transition in the pattern is magnified to the extreme.
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I agree that there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to maximum revs and speed. There is a "sweet spot" as to the amount, depending on the condition at hand.
However, on today's conditions, being rev-dominant garners the greatest degree of success---most of the time. A good rev-dominant bowler will generally beat a good
low rev player over the long haul on today's conditions. Their margin of error as far as accuracy is concerned, is larger .
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I agree, with the caveat that the high rev player can keep his axis rotation low.
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Yes.
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In everything, there is always an optimum point, a point at which there can not exist anything better, only different. Bowling is not an exception to this.
At some point, the laws of physics dictate that the optimum strike ball is achieved. I do not know what that point is, but once it has been reached, changing it in ANY way does not and can not make it any better.
For conversational purposes only, we will say that the optimum strike ball is achieved at 4 1/2 degrees entry angle with 425 revs at 18 1/4 mph.
ANY variance from this will only take away from your strike percentage, even more of any factor. At this point, more revs, or more speed, or more entry angle would do you absolutely no good. So would lessening any of thise factors.
Has the actual optimal strike ball been reached in reality is the question, and I think the answer is yes. I watch people like Belmo and Tackett, and sometimes wonder how a certain shot they throw actually kept from striking, and think the only reason must be that they are outside the window of opportunity to strike by having too much of some factor involved in the shot.
Now, I have no data to back me up on this, so the fine points are pure conjecture, but they say "the proof is in the pudding", and I know what my eyes see, and that is what it looks like to me.
If it was all about power, people like them would strike every ball, regardless, and they don't.
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Really good analysis. While I was thinking more in terms of over reaction from lane transition loss of optimum carry across the entire pocket is equally an issue as you point out
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Something to keep in mind: the bowlers that struggled on this show were only there because they bowled so well across several tournaments. Their struggles may be a bit overstated.
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It comes and goes with the pba. They can determine a lot by the patterns they use. Tommy Jones had a run, Wes Malot had a run, Sean Rash etc. up to Belmo. All higher rev guys.
At any given point each looked unbeatable, but that showed to be short lived for each. (In terms of how long they dominated)
The "greats" stay in the mix through these other players hot streaks and pick off a win or two till their time comes back around. Or a time where it's wide open for anyone to get a win or two.
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Another point I have wondered about on the this subject is the margin of error in releases, regardless of style.
If a bowler makes a 10% deviation of their release, at 300 revs that is plus or minus 30 revs but at 600 revs that is 60 revs. Is that 30 rev difference enough to make a significant reaction difference on the lane I don't know.
The same with ball speed, a 5% variation at 16 mph is .8 mph at 20 mph it is 1 mph. How much difference does that make in reaction?
The top professionals are very consistent with their releases and speeds but I have to believe as you get towards the top end of speed and revs any variation in your timing causes significant changes to your rev rate and/or speed.
I agree that there has to be a point of diminishing returns but I'm not sure it has been reached.
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When you get above that 500 mark, I think Axis Rotation comes into play more, by stating you would want less axis rotation.
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I think too many times we look at isolated incidents and make assumptions based on this small sample size. Watching a couple of shots on the 52 feet of oil on the match between Belmonte and Tackett showed both bowlers keeping the ball inside 15 all the way down the lane. Both had some carry issues as is expected on a fresh shot of that length.
But what we don't see is how bowlers get to a typical finals show and how the styles perform as the lanes transition from fresh oil to broken down after 8+ games during qualifying. It is in these instances the high-rev, high-speed releases are of benefit the most, or at least that is how I see it.
The most successful bowlers will take their release and have the ability to adjust ancillary aspects to be successful on whatever condition they are encountering at that moment. Going from low rotation up to high rotation along with loft and other changes (all the while doing so consistently at the correct time) will make the bowlers successful. And if everyone can do that then I feel the higher rev and speed guys will be more successful because of the ability to overpower the broken down lanes at the end of a block.
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bob must have selective watching, not exactly sure where Rash is starting to dominate. Making a couple shows and winning one isn't dominating. Belmonte is having an "off" year and has still made 5 shows.
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What pinbuster said is spot on. Very small variations in release at super high rev rates and large axis rotation are magnified, just as small lane transitions are magnified. As for Rash dominating I probably over stated, but has clearly made himself more competitive over a broad range of conditions by cutting his axis rotation way dowm