BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Impending Doom on February 15, 2018, 12:38:36 PM
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Let's have a vocabulary lesson here.
Definition of overkill
1 : a destructive capacity greatly exceeding that required for a given target
2 : an excess of something (such as a quantity or an action) beyond what is required or suitable for a particular purpose.
Now, the majority of us are bowling on some sort of modified house shot. I promise most of us aren't bowling on real heavy flat patterns all of the time. If you are, then this doesn't apply to you.
Your new high end toy is overkill. Your new Jackal Rising, your DCT, your Sure Lock, Mako, Paradox Black, etc etc etc. They're all overkill.
You.
Do.
Not.
Need.
Them.
As the consumer listening to your PSO, you hear "This ball hooks more than last week's hook monster" and automatically think that it's going to hook circles around your previous hook monster.
Chances are, it's not going to.
It's going to be overkill. It's going to suck. And it's not the balls fault. It's yours.
Justin Wi puts together some great videos. His "biggest" hooking layout on assyms is 70*5*70. Notice he isn't trying to play up the track? Why is that?
Very rarely have I seen a ball that honestly is garbage. I've seen it, but nowadays, it's rare. The person is just not using it on the right condition. You are using a nuke to ferret out a groundhog, then get upset when the nuke destroys everything around it.
Rising is early. DCT is early. They're not meant to bounce off the friction. They're meant to slow down as soon as possible. That's what the cover dictates. Slow down asap when you hit the FLOOD.
Please, people. Stop buying a high end ball and expect it to hook circles around your older ball.
I'll even give you a personal experience, to show that even knowledgeable people fall victim to this phenomenon.
I have an Incinerate. F90, strongest cover ever used out of San Antonio. Drilled mine weak (70*5*35) and took it to the heaviest oiled house within 3 counties.
I threw it 6 frames. Haven't thrown it since. Next time I bowl a first squad at a tournament, I'll bring it. Until then, it stays on the shelf.
Now, if it's the biggest ball in the bag, why don't I take it everywhere?? IT'S MY MOST HOOKING BALL!
Because I do not see enough volume anywhere to use it. Too much surface, too much flare, too much ball. Houses around me, I can barely use S70. I'm actually more comfortable with the S60 range or lower. Drift, X, maybe my Dream On if I need to wheel.
Once you reach a point of saturation, you aren't going to have an enjoyable time. News flash, you DO have friction you can use. Don't lie to me. The newest set of snow tires isn't going to help you cover more boards on a house shot. It's akin to having chains on your tires in the summer. You're just going to destroy the pavement.
Stop. Just.stop. 99% of the time, it's not the balls fault. It's yours. It's not your fault, you just fall under the wheels of the Hype machine, which is what the ball companies hope. Keep that revenue coming in!!
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Another valiant effort. I thank you.
Many of us old timers have been preaching just that since the advent of resin in 1993. They have virtually all fallen on deaf ears, and on eyes that will not see.
One can only hope a fresher voice can exert some influence.
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It would be so nice if people would actually listen to this.
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I agree. Only time I've really needed more ball is tournaments with higher volume. House shot or modified house shot? Never needed more than a medium strength ball. 44 ft high street used a Motiv Tag Cannon and Radical Rack Attack Pearl last night
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It’s all I can do to throw a polished Hyroad and Wreckem here most of the time.
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
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Yeah I’m almost to the point of giving up
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
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Instead of telling them they don't need it, I try to show them they don't need it if they give me a chance. If opportunity presents itself with the guy who thinks he needs the hook monster, I pull out my No Rules and purposely crank/chicken wing/come around the side of the ball and watch it go straight down the lane maybe cover 5 boards and deflect like a ping pong ball. On ball two I flatten it out and watch it go dead straight. Then I'll take out my Hy Road and throw it correctly staying behind/underneath the ball with low axis tilt and come off my fingers cleanly to put enough revs to make it hook and crush the pocket from multiple angles. Then I show them my oil rings/ball track and say "this is what you should strive for" instead wasting your money.
Sometimes you just got to show them to make them believe.
I coach the youth bowlers in my son's league every Sat morning. For the kids that already know how to bowl I make it point show them good revs vs. bad revs. After they "get it" their whole game improves.
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
It absolutely does. Because the "message" is being lost on several in that other thread. I love your premise/argument starting off this topic. Nice job.
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Although I pretty much agree that too many buy the "hook monster" without a true need for it, there are times when they can be valuable. Tuesday night I was wishing I had my Kingpin in the bag (but I refuse to take more than 1 straight ball and 2 crooked ones to league). Everything either hooked too hard outside or slid too far inside.
You don't NEED beer.
You don't NEED pizza, or french fries.
You don't NEED that new driver, or putter.
We don't NEED lots of things that we think we need, but we still buy them.
Once we understand ball motion, and how it's created, we will make more informed ball choices based on what we actually bowl on, and our individual talents.
For example, it's difficult to roll the ball like I do (VooDoo roll) so just bowl the way you bowl. Take advantage of your "A game" and play where the lane allows you to play.
I still believe that NO BALL HOOKS IN OIL. Every ball needs to find adequate friction before it can change direction. If you can get performance with a mid-price ball that's better for your bank account (and more money towards pizza, beer and the other stuff we "need").
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Preach on Brother Doom!
90% of the time, I use my Venom Cobra.
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Another valiant effort. I thank you.
Many of us old timers have been preaching just that since the advent of resin in 1993. They have virtually all fallen on deaf ears, and on eyes that will not see.
One can only hope a fresher voice can exert some influence.
You know, in 93 I was 16. Started working in a pro shop in 94 and the changes were amazing. So since my entrance into the business side of things, resin was.just starting to blow up. Why buy a Crush when you could get a Crush/R? Blue Nitro? Naw, get a Nitro/R! The R stands for reactive!! It makes the urethane ball look like you throw a purse at the pins! People gobbled it up and the shop business was booming. Although, everyone was infatuated with go long snap hard, so much to the point that I had to convince them to use surface to get the ball to read the lane sooner. Boss knew I was right, but people didn't want to listen to some punk kid. (Not much has changed since 94 lol) but instead of directing people to the Danger Zones and shiny skid snap balls, I sold a ton of Nitro/R2s just based off of what I saw with the ball (Funny, one of the best cores ever.) And people loved them instead of wanting 50 feet left turn. It was resin, but still kinda read the lane like urethane.
Then the pro active stuff came out, and thus started the blow a hole in the lane phenomenon. Told people that they didn't need that much cover, and of course, I was just trying to sell them something else right?
I used to strive to sell the best ball reaction for the customer. But once customers had a thought planted in their head, you couldn't shake it out of them.
Not much has changed.
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Oh But what will the ball companies do.Prime example of what Doom is saying.Last night in league guy pulls out his brand new Kinetic solid.Not sure what surface it comes with new.It looked pretty dull.Told my teammates this is going to fun.He is lefthanded with maybe 11 mph speed.Lol he shot 123 it was hooking before the arrows.Finally I heard one of his teammates say put that dam thing up.Pro Shop guy needs shot for selling it to him.Cyclones probably to strong for him.
Hectic and a Black pearl Rhino is about all I ever need on THS.
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There is a reason why the Hy-Road is celebrating a 10 year anniversary and say the Storm Shift ain't. I agree oil monster asyms are near worthless on THS but have found a strong sym ball with polish like my Green Quantum is damn useful for at least the first game on the fresh in my doubles league at least with my style. May end up just putting more surface on my black and using it all three games though.
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Oh But what will the ball companies do.Prime example of what Doom is saying.Last night in league guy pulls out his brand new Kinetic solid.Not sure what surface it comes with new.It looked pretty dull.Told my teammates this is going to fun.He is lefthanded with maybe 11 mph speed.Lol he shot 123 it was hooking before the arrows.Finally I heard one of his teammates say put that dam thing up.Pro Shop guy needs shot for selling it to him.Cyclones probably to strong for him.
Hectic and a Black pearl Rhino is about all I ever need on THS.
11mph with an oil monster lol. That is the kind of dude that should be looking at urethane.
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I think he needs to take up tiddly winks.Bowling couldn't be that much fun.
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I think he needs to take up tiddly winks.Bowling couldn't be that much fun.
Well as I tell myself when struggling at least it getting a little bit of exercise.
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If people understood that more hook doesn't usually equate to more carry it would be a good starting point. I shot a 300 three weeks ago playing 17 board on a broken down 43 foot sport pattern using a marvel pearl. I am 70 years old and probably aren't getting 300 revs anymore. Never let my breakpoint get to the right of 12 board. Lot if young guys were out hooking me, but none were out carrying me.
Lesson to be learned. Develop an effective release that will allow you to hit the pocket with most of the balls in your bag. Then learn how to fine tune your carry using the different equipment.
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>Lesson to be learned. Develop an effective release that will allow you to hit the pocket with most of the balls in your bag. Then learn how to fine tune your carry using the different equipment.
Literally the secret to bowling in that one paragraph. More balls you own the more you know its true.
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"Lesson to be learned. Develop an effective release that will allow you to hit the pocket with most of the balls in your bag. Then learn how to fine tune your carry using the different equipment."
Let's not start introducing any logic here... Nice job shooting 300 against the young pups, though. ;)
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Ball whores keep the companies afloat.
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If people understood that more hook doesn't usually equate to more carry it would be a good starting point. I shot a 300 three weeks ago playing 17 board on a broken down 43 foot sport pattern using a marvel pearl. I am 70 years old and probably aren't getting 300 revs anymore. Never let my breakpoint get to the right of 12 board. Lot if young guys were out hooking me, but none were out carrying me.
Lesson to be learned. Develop an effective release that will allow you to hit the pocket with most of the balls in your bag. Then learn how to fine tune your carry using the different equipment.
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts (yet another archaic saying) that 90% of the cranker kids watching you score said you were just getting lucky.
"You can't fix stupid." - Ron White
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"Lesson to be learned. Develop an effective release that will allow you to hit the pocket with most of the balls in your bag. Then learn how to fine tune your carry using the different equipment."
Let's not start introducing any logic here... Nice job shooting 300 against the young pups, though. ;)
working on developing a longer hang time.
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Actually most of the young guys seem to respect my game. Also I can't beat the good high rev guys who know how to keep the ball in front of them by cutting down the axis rotation
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For most bowlers on most conditions they normally see a mid performance ball or less is going to be their best chance to score and have a great overall look.
Exceptions come for different bowling styles and abilities. Speed dominant, low rev, straighter players etc.
Good pro shops can do a lot to help a bowler….. But in the end it's the bowlers decision and they typically buy hype vs need. Been there, done that.
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For most bowlers on most conditions they normally see a mid performance ball or less is going to be their best chance to score and have a great overall look.
Exceptions come for different bowling styles and abilities. Speed dominant, low rev, straighter players etc.
Good pro shops can do a lot to help a bowler….. But in the end it's the bowlers decision and they typically buy hype vs need. Been there, done that.
Pretty much. I think the lanes in our area tend to vary (both ways) a bit more than the average house shot look but for the most part a mid-level ball is the best bet on any night. The latest and greatest high-end asymmetrical isn't needed... although it's still nice to have. :D
Personally I like the reaction I get from asymmetricals more than symmetricals so I try to find the former with a tame enough cover to use in league. Luckily it seems like there are more and more options for that kind of ball lately.
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
It absolutely does. Because the "message" is being lost on several in that other thread. I love your premise/argument starting off this topic. Nice job.
And I’m one of them. I can disagree with you in this thread just as easily as the other one.
I’m a high speed high rev bowler that’s slightly speed dominant. And on the house shots around here with my style, a Mastermind has made me plenty of money.
It’s great that you guys don’t need anything more than a Hyroad, really, it is. My Hyroad was shit, it doesn’t wrinkle if it catches any oil. Not everyone bowls on YOUR house shot. People disagreeing with your opinion doesn’t mean your message was lost. It could conceivably mean your generalization doesn’t always hold true.
On MY local coiffed house shots, starting with an IQ Tour or similar and balling up to a solid asym as I move in is a strong strategy for people with higher ball speed.
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
It absolutely does. Because the "message" is being lost on several in that other thread. I love your premise/argument starting off this topic. Nice job.
And I’m one of them. I can disagree with you in this thread just as easily as the other one.
I’m a high speed high rev bowler that’s slightly speed dominant. And on the house shots around here with my style, a Mastermind has made me plenty of money.
It’s great that you guys don’t need anything more than a Hyroad, really, it is. My Hyroad was shit, it doesn’t wrinkle if it catches any oil. Not everyone bowls on YOUR house shot. People disagreeing with your opinion doesn’t mean your message was lost. It could conceivably mean your generalization doesn’t always hold true.
On MY local coiffed house shots, starting with an IQ Tour or similar and balling up to a solid asym as I move in is a strong strategy for people with higher ball speed.
Actually kind of in the same boat that can't use my Hy-Road very effectively on my league shot with my style (short of towards middle of third game) which is why had to go up to a Black and even Green Quantum. Only a doubles league so don't need to get deep with an asym (lol third arrow with my style). Corporate bowling centers with newer synthetics often take some decent equipment to get the ball to turn the corner if you aren't Revy Mcrevs.
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
It absolutely does. Because the "message" is being lost on several in that other thread. I love your premise/argument starting off this topic. Nice job.
And I’m one of them. I can disagree with you in this thread just as easily as the other one.
I’m a high speed high rev bowler that’s slightly speed dominant. And on the house shots around here with my style, a Mastermind has made me plenty of money.
It’s great that you guys don’t need anything more than a Hyroad, really, it is. My Hyroad was shit, it doesn’t wrinkle if it catches any oil. Not everyone bowls on YOUR house shot. People disagreeing with your opinion doesn’t mean your message was lost. It could conceivably mean your generalization doesn’t always hold true.
On MY local coiffed house shots, starting with an IQ Tour or similar and balling up to a solid asym as I move in is a strong strategy for people with higher ball speed.
Well, if an Mastermind isn't too much ball for your conditions, then it's not overkill.
Go back and read the definition of overkill before you start talking again. The definition that is applicable is #2.
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
It absolutely does. Because the "message" is being lost on several in that other thread. I love your premise/argument starting off this topic. Nice job.
And I’m one of them. I can disagree with you in this thread just as easily as the other one.
I’m a high speed high rev bowler that’s slightly speed dominant. And on the house shots around here with my style, a Mastermind has made me plenty of money.
It’s great that you guys don’t need anything more than a Hyroad, really, it is. My Hyroad was shit, it doesn’t wrinkle if it catches any oil. Not everyone bowls on YOUR house shot. People disagreeing with your opinion doesn’t mean your message was lost. It could conceivably mean your generalization doesn’t always hold true.
On MY local coiffed house shots, starting with an IQ Tour or similar and balling up to a solid asym as I move in is a strong strategy for people with higher ball speed.
Disagree all you'd like. What's important is what's true for most bowlers on most conditions most of the time. The generalized answer is that a mid-performance ball or lower is going to be the better choice in the majority of situations.
The fact that you're a high speed high rev bowler makes you more the exception than the rule. Your needs are going to be different. I acknowledged those kind of variables in the other thread. No need to be defensive about it.
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one thing I noticed is bowler's with these hook monsters don't play to the friction,they blow out the blend to the point it's dirt from 20 to 0.
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How's a 70*5*35 considered a weak layout?
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> Houses around me, I can barely use S70
Wow must be nice. I have to use a grey scotch brite on my HB to use it in most the houses around here. High tilt sucks.
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> Houses around me, I can barely use S70
Wow must be nice. I have to use a grey scotch brite on my HB to use it in most the houses around here. High tilt sucks.
Well, I have a lot of tilt too, but also axis rotation as well, so if I can sniff any friction, it's going to be ok for me.
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How's a 70*5*35 considered a weak layout?
Well, weaker than going 40*4*70 with a p4 hole. I knew from my Darkness that the core flares a ton, so I was looking to get it to respond a bit quicker to friction than going with my normal 50*5*65 on symmetrical balls. I took my experience with my Darkness (4.5*65 with a low hole) and didn't want the same reaction with a much stronger cover.
My bad, though. Thing still flares a ton. Should have called it the Shimwrecker lol
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
It absolutely does. Because the "message" is being lost on several in that other thread. I love your premise/argument starting off this topic. Nice job.
And I’m one of them. I can disagree with you in this thread just as easily as the other one.
I’m a high speed high rev bowler that’s slightly speed dominant. And on the house shots around here with my style, a Mastermind has made me plenty of money.
It’s great that you guys don’t need anything more than a Hyroad, really, it is. My Hyroad was shit, it doesn’t wrinkle if it catches any oil. Not everyone bowls on YOUR house shot. People disagreeing with your opinion doesn’t mean your message was lost. It could conceivably mean your generalization doesn’t always hold true.
On MY local coiffed house shots, starting with an IQ Tour or similar and balling up to a solid asym as I move in is a strong strategy for people with higher ball speed.
Disagree all you'd like. What's important is what's true for most bowlers on most conditions most of the time. The generalized answer is that a mid-performance ball or lower is going to be the better choice in the majority of situations.
The fact that you're a high speed high rev bowler makes you more the exception than the rule. Your needs are going to be different. I acknowledged those kind of variables in the other thread. No need to be defensive about it.
My point is it’s not the exception around here. Any speed dominant bowler does the same thing.
It’s not defensive, it’s for a purpose. Generalized advice like this (and don’t bring 6 balls to league, etc etc) all go against the most important rules of bowling: take advice from your PSO for the conditions you see, not from the internet. I spent years battling myself because of what I “learned†on the internet.
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
It absolutely does. Because the "message" is being lost on several in that other thread. I love your premise/argument starting off this topic. Nice job.
And I’m one of them. I can disagree with you in this thread just as easily as the other one.
I’m a high speed high rev bowler that’s slightly speed dominant. And on the house shots around here with my style, a Mastermind has made me plenty of money.
It’s great that you guys don’t need anything more than a Hyroad, really, it is. My Hyroad was shit, it doesn’t wrinkle if it catches any oil. Not everyone bowls on YOUR house shot. People disagreeing with your opinion doesn’t mean your message was lost. It could conceivably mean your generalization doesn’t always hold true.
On MY local coiffed house shots, starting with an IQ Tour or similar and balling up to a solid asym as I move in is a strong strategy for people with higher ball speed.
Disagree all you'd like. What's important is what's true for most bowlers on most conditions most of the time. The generalized answer is that a mid-performance ball or lower is going to be the better choice in the majority of situations.
The fact that you're a high speed high rev bowler makes you more the exception than the rule. Your needs are going to be different. I acknowledged those kind of variables in the other thread. No need to be defensive about it.
My point is it’s not the exception around here. Any speed dominant bowler does the same thing.
It’s not defensive, it’s for a purpose. Generalized advice like this (and don’t bring 6 balls to league, etc etc) all go against the most important rules of bowling: take advice from your PSO for the conditions you see, not from the internet. I spent years battling myself because of what I “learned†on the internet.
When I went to school, we had a class in my senior year devoted to "rules of thumb" answers to problems. Everyone knew the answer wasn't as rigorous as filling out 3 pages of formulas and such to come up with an answer. But the rule of thumb got you in a great starting point.
The same could be said here. People come to the website for knowledge. They come here perhaps because they are having problems and may not have access to reliable pro shop knowledge. And for those people, the OP's statement is extremely valuable. Starting with medium level equipment is what 99% of bowlers should be doing when approaching any THS, even yours.
The medium equipment may not be the best choice. Perhaps 3 pages of formulas (or years of experimentation) is needed to nail down the ultimate best choice, but it doesn't eliminate the value of the information here.
If we were to poke holes in any statement on the internet based on a minuscule number of exceptions, then there is no reason to post at all. Add your experience, but don't belittle the experiences of others.
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overkill: starting another thread when there’s a very active thread about the same exact topic
And yet, it bears repeating.
It absolutely does. Because the "message" is being lost on several in that other thread. I love your premise/argument starting off this topic. Nice job.
And I’m one of them. I can disagree with you in this thread just as easily as the other one.
I’m a high speed high rev bowler that’s slightly speed dominant. And on the house shots around here with my style, a Mastermind has made me plenty of money.
It’s great that you guys don’t need anything more than a Hyroad, really, it is. My Hyroad was shit, it doesn’t wrinkle if it catches any oil. Not everyone bowls on YOUR house shot. People disagreeing with your opinion doesn’t mean your message was lost. It could conceivably mean your generalization doesn’t always hold true.
On MY local coiffed house shots, starting with an IQ Tour or similar and balling up to a solid asym as I move in is a strong strategy for people with higher ball speed.
Disagree all you'd like. What's important is what's true for most bowlers on most conditions most of the time. The generalized answer is that a mid-performance ball or lower is going to be the better choice in the majority of situations.
The fact that you're a high speed high rev bowler makes you more the exception than the rule. Your needs are going to be different. I acknowledged those kind of variables in the other thread. No need to be defensive about it.
My point is it’s not the exception around here. Any speed dominant bowler does the same thing.
It’s not defensive, it’s for a purpose. Generalized advice like this (and don’t bring 6 balls to league, etc etc) all go against the most important rules of bowling: take advice from your PSO for the conditions you see, not from the internet. I spent years battling myself because of what I “learned†on the internet.
+1 the last post above
I'm the idiot who brings 6 to league and a lot of people generalize saying only idiots need to bring that many to league on THS. Last nite on THS using Hustle Ink 225, 226 first 2 and game 3 I generally ball down in this house to a deep freeze, this week it didnt work as it couldnt hold in dry and left 2 weak tens moving in and thru 5 had 2 splits and 76 in 5th, decided to ball up using a ball that hasnt seen light of day since last september, sky rocket saved the game with 5 strikes in a row as it was able to carry from deep where the other ball could not. If I went by the THS rule only need 2 or 3 I would have shot 150. So in general sure THS doesnt require 6 balls but I like having options. I spent the $ so I bring them and dont give a rats ass what other bowlers think about it.
And the generalization we never need the hook monsters, I bowl another house that put new lanes in where friction is low and the THS is tight now and have gotten a lot of use out of my Motiv Ghost that sat in the bag for a year never seeing light of day until 1/4 way thru this season for THS.
So generalizations are just that and I dont go through life or bowling following them..... :o
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Bottom line you can't buy a game. I buy several balls a year, but I don't do trying to fill in every possible hole in my arsenal. Drives me nuts when guys start a thread asking for a ball recommendation between the x ball and y ball. This isn't golf where every incremental up or down in an iron produces a measurable difference in distance and height.
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Bottom line you can't buy a game. I buy several balls a year, but I don't do trying to fill in every possible hole in my arsenal. Drives me nuts when guys start a thread asking for a ball recommendation between the x ball and y ball. This isn't golf where every incremental up or down in an iron produces a measurable difference in distance and height.
On house shots, I agree with this. On sport shots, there is an argument against this.
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Bottom line you can't buy a game. I buy several balls a year, but I don't do trying to fill in every possible hole in my arsenal. Drives me nuts when guys start a thread asking for a ball recommendation between the x ball and y ball. This isn't golf where every incremental up or down in an iron produces a measurable difference in distance and height.
On house shots, I agree with this. On sport shots, there is an argument against this.
True but people bowling on sport shots are probably the ones usually to answer the questions not ask them.
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True but people bowling on sport shots are probably the ones usually to answer the questions not ask them.
I'm not sure I understand what this means.
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True but people bowling on sport shots are probably the ones usually to answer the questions not ask them.
I'm not sure I understand what this means.
Was trying to say most people on sport shots have a pretty good idea what balls to get for the fine tuning they need to do but guess it is a reach. Not all are ball junkies.
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Lesson to be learned. Develop an effective release that will allow you to hit the pocket with most of the balls in your bag. Then learn how to fine tune your carry using the different equipment.
Ain’t nobody got time for that!
Why the heck should they have to learn anything when they can “buy it in a box�
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Definition of overkill
1 : a destructive capacity greatly exceeding that required for a given target
2 : an excess of something (such as a quantity or an action) beyond what is required or suitable for a particular purpose.
How can a high-end oiler be overkill if it plaques 7's or 10's all day on THS leading to lower scores? I kid...