BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: dR3w on May 23, 2014, 11:25:57 AM
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I have a quick question for anyone in the know. This year our Thursday night league used the Kegel Challenge shots. I was told by one of the workers at the Alley, that next year we won't be able to do that again, unless we declare ourselves a Sport League. (apparently this was mandated from AMF/Bowlmor Management. Of course you never know about such things).
My contention is that I thought the definition of a sport shot was a ratio of less than 3 to 1. The Kegel Challenge shots are in the range of about 4 to 1 (more or less).
Is there a clear definition here? Or can you declare any shot a sport shot and pay the extra money required to sanction it as a sport league?
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Found this:
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/sportbowling/pdfs/201213/SportBowlingManual2012-13.pdf
I guess that states my case.
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I think the issue comes from having a more difficult shot and not registering the league as such. The issue may be bowlers establishing lower averages for handicap purposes and by having the league labeled and run as a "Sport Shot League" there is less of an issue. Sport shot averages have an additional number of pins that would be added for handicap purposes in non sport shot tournaments (but most know this already).
My guess is once the league is run as a sport shot league (with appropriate inspections) the number of participants will be reduced or the shot will revert to THS.
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According to the Sport League document I linked to, a sport shot HAS to be 3-1 or less. The Kegel Challenge shots are higher ratio's than that. So regardless of the whole handicap issue, which I firmly understand, I don't think the league CAN call itself a sport shot league, since it doesn't meet the criteria.
Now if Bowlmor/AMF has an issue with sandbagging or the people who run the center don't want to have the lane man push a different button on the machine every week, that is a whole different story. I just want to have my ducks in-a-row when the league tries to challenge this next fall.
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You can declare it a sport league without being sport certified. Sport leagues are generally accepted to be tougher patterns, you'll find most people won't care TOO much whether it's actually sport certified or not, but it's a better descriptor to people who may be signing up without knowing it's going to be a tougher shot. I think that's all they're getting at is that they don't want someone to sign up thinking it's a house shot and then get pissed that the shot is "different" or that it "sucks."
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If you declare it a Sport league, then everyone has to have a Sport membership.
And there is where the bitching will start, having to pay the few extra dollars($10) for the membership upgrade is equivalent to nuclear winter for most bowlers.
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it amazes me how much people will complain about $10 dollars over the course of multiple weeks. I really don't understand these guys that walk around with a six ball roller and $1000 bucks invested in balls and then complain about the USBC or sport league dues.
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Ah, gotcha. I suppose I meant that if you title the league, "Sport - something" you don't have to have a sport membership. We've had PBA leagues the last several summers that have been sanctioned, but not sport sanctioned. I think you can use whatever shots you want to for a league but don't have to be sport sanctioned even the patterns do happen to qualify.
YES. I want to suggest to increase the cost of one of my scratch leagues to get more money in the pot, but it's absolutely amazing how many people swear it would break them or render them unable to bowl due to a dollar or two increase in weekly dues . .
If you declare it a Sport league, then everyone has to have a Sport membership.
And there is where the bitching will start, having to pay the few extra dollars($10) for the membership upgrade is equivalent to nuclear winter for most bowlers.
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Ours is called a "challenge" league
and its listed that way on bowl.com
i report this for tournaments im in.
The state tournament here in Wisconsin looked at me funny when i mentioned that
that had nothing to say about it, i was already higher that if i would have used a sport adjusted average, but i expected some kind of response
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And - sport certified leagues have to run tapes after every league session
something very few places are willing to do as its a PITA
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And - sport certified leagues have to run tapes after every league session
something very few places are willing to do as its a PITA
Ours were done before we bowled and if the tapes were not in compliance for a sport pattern, then all the bowlers had to sign a waiver stating that we were not eligible to win any sport awards, before we started the league bowling.
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We bowl a singles sport league that uses qualifying patterns. However this season the bowlers opted to not sanction it as a sport league, and put the upgrade fees into the prize fund.
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It should be a major concern when a league puts out a Sport shot without actually certifying as a Sport league. That allows bowlers to establish a certified average less than their THS ability without actually sandbagging, and that would certainly allow some bowlers a big advantage in handicap competition, especially if they bowl only in such a league.
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Why is that any different than just bowling in a tough house ( yes there are still a few of them around ). Also the league I am talking about is a summer league.
Truthfully, the line between sport bowling and house shots as far as scoring goes is getting blurry as more and more bowlers get comfortable with sport leagues. Most guys who want to be scratch bowlers are seeking out tournament patterns to hone their game. Yes, I know there are a still a lot of guys who like to have a few beers and shoot big numbers. They aren't the guys who are bowling scratch tournaments.
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It should be a major concern when a league puts out a Sport shot without actually certifying as a Sport league. That allows bowlers to establish a certified average less than their THS ability without actually sandbagging, and that would certainly allow some bowlers a big advantage in handicap competition, especially if they bowl only in such a league.
i am in 1 of those leagues your reference, (well technically, not all the patterns are sport compliant) So, its a challenge league, its for people who want to get better.
typically, we have a short,medium and long pattern and then NATS
teaches you to play different parts of the lane.
i would say that most of us bowl another night or more and have a higher THS average
i haven't heard of anyone in that league over the course of 4 years ever mention that.
And its listed on bowl.com as a challenge league
i reported my challenge league average to my state tournament officials and they looked at me funny, they said, "whats your last years high average?"
I bowl scratch anyways, so it was a moot point
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i am in 1 of those leagues your reference, (well technically, not all the patterns are sport compliant) So, its a challenge league, its for people who want to get better.
typically, we have a short,medium and long pattern and then NATS
teaches you to play different parts of the lane.
i would say that most of us bowl another night or more and have a higher THS average
i haven't heard of anyone in that league over the course of 4 years ever mention that.
And its listed on bowl.com as a challenge league
i reported my challenge league average to my state tournament officials and they looked at me funny, they said, "whats your last years high average?"
I bowl scratch anyways, so it was a moot point
Dave, it doesn't matter that you have challenging patterns. There is no USBC rule for rerating a bowler because they bowl in a "challenge" league. Only if they bowl in a "sport" shot league.
Your league may not take advantage of the situation, but the possibility is there someone will. Having a sport shot league that isn't sanctioned as such is shady, even if the league isn't trying to be.
Personally, I think USBC should take control of the shot a little bit and eliminate the 10+:1 ratio shots and make the THS a more respectable 7:1 or 8:1. Some of the extreme THS are getting out of control. But I don't expect USBC to do anything about the current state of THS oil patterns. BPAA won't let them.
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I agree with spmcgivern as to the shot ratio on a THS. The winter league i bowled in is a large league(5 man team, 60 teams). we had 20+ 300 games and my guess would be 10-15 800 series for the season and 46 people carry a 210 or better for the season.
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People who want to sandbag are going to do it. Like I said, no difference having an average in challenge league than finding a brick yard to establish an average. My highest average in the past two seasons was in a sport sanctioned league, not on a house shot. How would you deal with that.
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it amazes me how much people will complain about $10 dollars over the course of multiple weeks. I really don't understand these guys that walk around with a six ball roller and $1000 bucks invested in balls and then complain about the USBC or sport league dues.
Yep, these are the same guys that pour thousands of dollars into their gear but have holes in their slacks, stains on their shirts, and the most disgusting street shoes that a bum would not wear. I don't get it.
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USBC has had many years to fix this mess. They chose to do nothing. If you are bowling in a League that has a Sport Shot Pattern and the league is NOT a certified Sport League, it is no different than bowling at a difficult house (as stated by others).
Anyone bowling in the league I mentioned above is not your big problem at tournaments. They are not sandbagging. They are not breaking any rules.
Another issue of a USBC Sport League is getting the local center to do it. I mentioned it at my local center. He wants no part in the fees and the hassle on his end required to run this type of league. A lot easier to just the lay the pattern out, and not have to deal with making sure that its a legit Sport Pattern.
I am really surprised that the demand for a tougher pattern hasn't become more popular. Persnally, I find it boring bowling on a house shot week after week (Year after Year).
I have seen this with members of our high school bowling team. After the first year of competing, both boys and girls agree. They like the tougher patterns, they like bowling scratch, they like the challenge. The don't enjoy Saturday morning house shot league. No challenge, no thrill, it's boring.
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Trash,
You hit the nail on the head. True bowlers, want the challenge of a Sport shot league. But the current rules make it a pain in the @$$ for the center in order to make that happen. You have to pay extra fees, run tapes every week, send them in, and be ready to tell your bowlers that just had the game/week of his life that his Sport honor score doesn't count because the lanes didn't meet specifications. Most centers, that I know of anyway, don't want to do this because of the extra cost of having to put down more oil than their typical house pattern. Much less all the added hassles above. And if you get lucky enough to find a center that will spend the extra time/money to do this, you get bowlers who talk about wanting to get better, but quit halfway through league because they can't average their 200+, 210+, 220+, 230+, etc on this condition. They talk a good game, but when they see just how bad they really are, they run back to THS quicker than you can say House Hack. What center will spend the extras needed to put this out, when they see fewer and fewer bowlers coming in for it?!? If you run one of these in the Summer, you get a big turnout......since Summer averages don't count. So it doesn't effect people who now average 180-190 instead of 220-230. Plus the league length is shorter, so people don't have to feel frustrated for 30-34 weeks, only 12.
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I bowled in an unsanctioned sport league for several years. Even though it was not sanctioned as a sport league, and therefore not eligible for sport league awards, the local association required bowlers to be rerated for local tournaments based on the sport league rerating system. You kind of had the worst of both worlds. My teammate only bowled in this league and he was rerated every year.
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CPA,
I am not sure you thinking is correct. That is exactly what should be done. If your teammate is/was getting upset over this, then he is trying to sandbag on purpose (and not saying he was, just mentioning it). I have no issues if a league/center doesn't want to certify as Sports league, based on the hassles that have already been mentioned. But I also don't think the league should hide the fact that it is bowling on Sport patterns. Any bowlers bowling in that league should be rerated if that is their only average. Having gone through this in a certified Sports league, the rerated average is still probably lower than the person's true THS average anyway.
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Slightly off topic but the Sport bowling rating system is a little off. I have seen people as much as 40-50 pins under their book average from the prior winter.
One winter I was 219 without much practice and in the mid 180's during the summer where the lack of practice and some lousy spare shooting was finally exposed. According to the Sport rerate system, I am somewhere between 204-206. There was another guy with the same average as me who was barely in the 160's. Of course he vowed never to bowl this crap again and I haven't seen him around since.
And on the higher side of things. The guy who led the summer league with a 205 average was over 230 in the winter. According to the chart, he is 217.
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BigMike,
You highlight my exact point. I averaged 203 in my Sport league the last full season I bowled in it. My THS average going in was about 230. The 203 comes out at 214 (I think). What that tells me, and maybe I am wrong in my thinking, is that based on my actual skills, I should a be 215ish average bowler, and easy THS has given me 15 pins a game over and above that. Maybe I am looking at it wrong.
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BigMike,
You highlight my exact point. I averaged 203 in my Sport league the last full season I bowled in it. My THS average going in was about 230. The 203 comes out at 214 (I think). What that tells me, and maybe I am wrong in my thinking, is that based on my actual skills, I should a be 215ish average bowler, and easy THS has given me 15 pins a game over and above that. Maybe I am looking at it wrong.
In my opinion, you are looking at it exactly right Jorge. My 220 + average quickly turns into a 190ish average on flat conditions. Nothing exposes a house hack like me the way a Sport shot does. LOL
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It is possible to average much higher on sport patterns by changing your game to less axis rotation ( not less revs ). It is not necessary to hook the lane nearly as much as most THS high average bowlers do
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It is possible to average much higher on sport patterns by changing your game to less axis rotation ( not less revs ). It is not necessary to hook the lane nearly as much as most THS high average bowlers do
True, but chicks dig the big hook! ;D ;D
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Jorge,
I was not complaining about my teammate being rerated. The league put out a sport pattern and to be fair he should be rerated. He only bowls one night a week and the only tournament he bowls in is our local city tournament. The league was sanctioned, but not sport certified. Therefore honor score were not recorded as sport honor scores.
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Have sport patterns gotten easier? Before tonight the last time I bowled on a sport pattern was in 2007 (thanks to some motivated time off with duties for the Marine Corps) and it was hard for me to read and make adjustments. I bowled on one tonight and was amazed at how much easier I made adjustments and was able to find a line to the pocket.
Wasn't sure if it was me, the lane or my equipment.
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Jorge,
I was not complaining about my teammate being rerated. The league put out a sport pattern and to be fair he should be rerated. He only bowls one night a week and the only tournament he bowls in is our local city tournament. The league was sanctioned, but not sport certified. Therefore honor score were not recorded as sport honor scores.
CPA,
My response was based on your "worst of both worlds" comment. It made it sound like you weren't agreeing with your teammate being rerated. I was glad to hear that your association is doing that, as it is the right thing to do. Some, even though they are fully aware the averages are done on non-THS conditions, will not rerate unless it is a certified Sports league. I can see their thinking, like someone mentioned on here, it's the same as people bowling in noteriously harder scoring houses to lower their averages. You can't really rerate them even though you know the average isn't indicative of their true "THS potential". Most tournaments have a rule that people can be rerated for any reason, but most tournament runners won't do it because it could negatively effect turnout going forward. So you wind uo between a rock and a hard place. My post wasn't meant to take a shot at you or your teammate, just interpreting your comment, and obviously I got it wrong. :)
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Sport patterns haven't gotten easier as much as bowlers have adjusted to their environment. The patterns have gotten longer which has an impact I will explain below Also, the modern balls are able to create tracks in the oil patterns very effectively, much the way rubber balls did 50 years ago on lacquer. The difference is that the modern balls have so much surface friction on the dry, that carry is immensely better than many years ago. A lot of the long sport patterns of today remind me very much of tournaments on lacquer in the late 60's.
Even the pros today have changed their strategies over just a few years ago as a result of the much longer patterns that are becoming common. You don't see heavy handed guys going right to 4th arrow and blowing a hole in the pattern right out of the box the way they did for several years. Even guys like Rash start out going up 10 board with lots of end over end revs. This effectively sets up the shot better for everyone