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Author Topic: Definition of Sport League  (Read 8489 times)

dR3w

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Definition of Sport League
« on: May 23, 2014, 11:25:57 AM »
I have a quick question for anyone in the know.  This year our Thursday night league used the Kegel Challenge shots.  I was told by one of the workers at the Alley, that next year we won't be able to do that again, unless we declare ourselves a Sport League.  (apparently this was mandated from AMF/Bowlmor Management.  Of course you never know about such things). 

My contention is that I thought the definition of a sport shot was a ratio of less than 3 to 1.  The Kegel Challenge shots are in the range of about 4 to 1 (more or less). 

Is there a clear definition here?  Or can you declare any shot a sport shot and pay the extra money required to sanction it as a sport league?

 

spmcgivern

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2014, 08:24:55 AM »
i am in 1 of those leagues your reference, (well technically, not all the patterns are sport compliant) So, its a challenge league, its for people who want to get better.
typically, we have a short,medium and long pattern and then NATS
teaches you to play different parts of the lane.
i would say that most of us bowl another night or more and have a higher THS average
i haven't heard of anyone in that league over the course of 4 years ever mention that.
And its listed on bowl.com as a challenge league
i reported my challenge league average to my state tournament officials and they looked at me funny, they said, "whats your last years high average?"
I bowl scratch anyways, so it was a moot point

Dave, it doesn't matter that you have challenging patterns.  There is no USBC rule for rerating a bowler because they bowl in a "challenge" league.  Only if they bowl in a "sport"  shot league. 

Your league may not take advantage of the situation, but the possibility is there someone will.  Having a sport shot league that isn't sanctioned as such is shady, even if the league isn't trying to be. 

Personally, I think USBC should take control of the shot a little bit and eliminate the 10+:1 ratio shots and make the THS a more respectable 7:1 or 8:1.  Some of the extreme THS are getting out of control.  But I don't expect USBC to do anything about the current state of THS oil patterns.  BPAA won't let them.

mrfrostee

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2014, 10:06:56 AM »
I agree with spmcgivern as to the shot ratio on a THS. The winter league i bowled in is a large league(5 man team, 60 teams). we had 20+ 300 games and my guess would be 10-15 800 series for the season and 46 people carry a 210 or better for the season.

avabob

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2014, 10:43:14 AM »
People who want to sandbag are going to do it.  Like I said, no difference having an average in challenge league than finding a brick yard to establish an average.  My highest average in the past two seasons was in a sport sanctioned  league, not on a house shot.  How would you deal with that. 

northface28

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2014, 10:47:08 AM »
it amazes me how much people will complain about $10 dollars over the course of multiple weeks. I really don't understand these guys that walk around with a six ball roller and $1000 bucks invested in balls and then complain about the USBC or sport league dues.

Yep, these are the same guys that pour thousands of dollars into their gear but have holes in their slacks, stains on their shirts, and the most disgusting street shoes that a bum would not wear. I don't get it.
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trash heap

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2014, 10:55:12 AM »
USBC has had many years to fix this mess. They chose to do nothing. If you are bowling in a League that has a Sport Shot Pattern and the league is NOT a certified Sport League, it is no different than bowling at a difficult house (as stated by others).

Anyone bowling in the league I mentioned above is not your big problem at tournaments. They are not sandbagging. They are not breaking any rules.

Another issue of a USBC Sport League is getting the local center to do it. I mentioned it at my local center. He wants no part in the fees and the hassle on his end required to run this type of league. A lot easier to just the lay the pattern out, and not have to deal with making sure that its a legit Sport Pattern.

I am really surprised that the demand for a tougher pattern hasn't become more popular. Persnally, I find it boring bowling on a house shot week after week (Year after Year).

I have seen this with members of our high school bowling team. After the first year of competing, both boys and girls agree. They like the tougher patterns, they like bowling scratch, they like the challenge. The don't enjoy Saturday morning house shot league. No challenge, no thrill, it's boring.
 
Talkin' Trash!

Jorge300

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2014, 03:06:37 PM »
Trash,
    You hit the nail on the head. True bowlers, want the challenge of a Sport shot league. But the current rules make it a pain in the @$$ for the center in order to make that happen. You have to pay extra fees, run tapes every week, send them in, and be ready to tell your bowlers that just had the game/week of his life that his Sport honor score doesn't count because the lanes didn't meet specifications. Most centers, that I know of anyway, don't want to do this because of the extra cost of having to put down more oil than their typical house pattern. Much less all the added hassles above. And if you get lucky enough to find a center that will spend the extra time/money to do this, you get bowlers who talk about wanting to get better, but quit halfway through league because they can't average their 200+, 210+, 220+, 230+, etc on this condition. They talk a good game, but when they see just how bad they really are, they run back to THS quicker than you can say House Hack. What center will spend the extras needed to put this out, when they see fewer and fewer bowlers coming in for it?!? If you run one of these in the Summer, you get a big turnout......since Summer averages don't count. So it doesn't effect people who now average 180-190 instead of 220-230. Plus the league length is shorter, so people don't have to feel frustrated for 30-34 weeks, only 12.
Jorge300

CPA

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2014, 07:47:15 PM »
I bowled in an unsanctioned sport league for several years.  Even though it was not sanctioned as a sport league, and therefore not eligible for sport league awards, the local association required bowlers to be rerated for local tournaments based on the sport league rerating system.  You kind of had the worst of both worlds.  My teammate only bowled in this league and he was rerated every year. 

Jorge300

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2014, 10:46:26 AM »
CPA,
    I am not sure you thinking is correct. That is exactly what should be done. If your teammate is/was getting upset over this, then he is trying to sandbag on purpose (and not saying he was, just mentioning it). I have no issues if a league/center doesn't want to certify as Sports league, based on the hassles that have already been mentioned. But I also don't think the league should hide the fact that it is bowling on Sport patterns. Any bowlers bowling in that league should be rerated if that is their only average. Having gone through this in a certified Sports league, the rerated average is still probably lower than the person's true THS average anyway.
Jorge300

Bigmike

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2014, 11:53:49 AM »
Slightly off topic but the Sport bowling rating system is a little off. I have seen people as much as 40-50 pins under their book average from the prior winter.

One winter I was 219 without much practice and in the mid 180's during the summer where the lack of practice and some lousy spare shooting was finally exposed. According to the Sport rerate system, I am somewhere between 204-206. There was another guy with the same average as me who was barely in the 160's. Of course he vowed never to bowl this crap again and I haven't seen him around since.

And on the higher side of things. The guy who led the summer league with a 205 average was over 230 in the winter. According to the chart, he is 217.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 11:55:45 AM by Bigmike »
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Jorge300

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2014, 12:10:27 PM »
BigMike,
     You highlight my exact point. I averaged 203 in my Sport league the last full season I bowled in it. My THS average going in was about 230. The 203 comes out at 214 (I think). What that tells me, and maybe I am wrong in my thinking, is that based on my actual skills, I should a be 215ish average bowler, and easy THS has given me 15 pins a game over and above that. Maybe I am looking at it wrong.
Jorge300

milorafferty

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2014, 12:19:11 PM »
BigMike,
     You highlight my exact point. I averaged 203 in my Sport league the last full season I bowled in it. My THS average going in was about 230. The 203 comes out at 214 (I think). What that tells me, and maybe I am wrong in my thinking, is that based on my actual skills, I should a be 215ish average bowler, and easy THS has given me 15 pins a game over and above that. Maybe I am looking at it wrong.

In my opinion, you are looking at it exactly right Jorge. My 220 + average quickly turns into a 190ish average on flat conditions. Nothing exposes a house hack like me the way a Sport shot does. LOL
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avabob

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2014, 12:59:14 PM »
It is possible to average much higher on sport patterns by changing your game to less axis rotation ( not less revs ).  It is not necessary to hook the lane nearly as much as most THS high average bowlers do

milorafferty

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2014, 02:40:14 PM »
It is possible to average much higher on sport patterns by changing your game to less axis rotation ( not less revs ).  It is not necessary to hook the lane nearly as much as most THS high average bowlers do

True, but chicks dig the big hook!   ;D ;D
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CPA

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2014, 06:46:58 PM »
Jorge,

I was not complaining about my teammate being rerated.  The league put out a  sport pattern and to be fair he should be rerated.  He only bowls one night a week and the only tournament he bowls in is our local city tournament.  The league was sanctioned, but not sport certified.  Therefore honor score were not recorded as sport honor scores. 

EL3MCNEIL

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Re: Definition of Sport League
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2014, 05:33:33 AM »
Have sport patterns gotten easier? Before tonight the last time I bowled on a sport pattern was in 2007 (thanks to some motivated time off with duties for the Marine Corps) and it was hard for me to read and make adjustments. I bowled on one tonight and was amazed at how much easier I made adjustments and was able to find a line to the pocket.

Wasn't sure if it was me, the lane or my equipment.
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