Post by: Brickguy221 on August 22, 2008, 08:45:35 AM
I know that after a bowler bowls awhile that a driller can adjust his thumb pitch from what it is depending on several factors, but say a new bowler that has never bowled, is there a chart or diagrams to aid in determining what pitches to drill his first thumb hole?
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 22, 2008, 05:19:56 PM
Jayhawkbowling.com has some very similar also.
I don't remember you being happy with the Bill Taylor charts from the past though...
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Smash49 on August 22, 2008, 06:14:57 PM
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
www.chisholmtraillanes.com
Post by: JohnP on August 22, 2008, 10:19:58 PM
http://jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/thumbangle.pdf
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 24, 2008, 12:20:38 AM
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 24, 2008, 12:23:14 AM
quote:
Brick...the old Bill Taylor charts are a start.
LuckyLefty, where are the Bill Taylor Charts????
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 24, 2008, 12:24:11 AM
quote:
There are charts in the IBPSIA HOTS manual.
Smash, I can't find a link to show the charts. Can you furnish me one?
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: voidkid89 on August 24, 2008, 08:04:47 PM
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Wes Dye
Suburban Lanes Youth League Director/Head Coach
Suburban Lanes Pro Shop/Manager
Bloomington, Indiana
voidkid89@yahoo.com (also msn messenger name, give me a shout)
Indiana University Bowling
Post by: JohnP on August 24, 2008, 09:23:15 PM
quote:
Are you having the customer hold there hand with the back of the hand facing them and seeing the angle between the index finger and thumb?
Yes.
quote:
just exactly how do you check thier flexability, and what does a lot or a little mean with fingers
Assuming you're fitting for a fingertip grip you're mainly interested in the flexibility of the first finger joint (closest joint to the finger nail). Use your hand to bend their finger back toward the palm of their hand, without forcing. Look at how far the first joint bends. At the extremes, 90 degrees would be completely perpendicular to the finger segment and 0 degrees would be no bend at all. At 90 degrees I recommend 0 pitch, I don't like to put anyone in forward finger pitch. I've never actually run into a joint that won't bend at all. My RF joint is as stiff as I've ever seen and it bends about 20 degrees. I use 3/4 reverse on that finger. You can estimate between these extremes. Remember to add some extra reverse - I add 3/16 - to the pilot hole if the customer is using lift grips. -- JohnP
Post by: voidkid89 on August 24, 2008, 09:42:31 PM
--------------------
Wes Dye
Suburban Lanes Youth League Director/Head Coach
Suburban Lanes Pro Shop/Manager
Bloomington, Indiana
voidkid89@yahoo.com (also msn messenger name, give me a shout)
Indiana University Bowling
Post by: JohnP on August 25, 2008, 03:34:04 PM
quote:
So you're saying that someone with 90 degrees in both fingers, using lifts, should be at roughly 3/16 reverse in each?
That's what I recommend, for the pilot hole.
quote:
And one more question about the thumb angle. Is the angle measured just stretching their thumb away from their index finger, or do you allow them to help stretch with their opposite hand?
I pull slightly on it to be sure it's completely stretched, but if it is it makes very little difference. Try it on your own hand. If you stretch it back, you can't get much more by pulling on it without inducing pain. -- JohnP
Added on edit -- Actually, when I "read" a hand I check the thumb's stiffness by rotating it in all directions, again without forcing (think of how you can rotate a joy stick). I get my starting lateral pitch suggestion from that also. -- JohnP
Edited on 8/25/2008 3:37 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 25, 2008, 04:11:34 PM
They refer to a 63 degree angle between the front finger hole and a staight line to the top of the thumb hole(yes drawn imaginary thru the ball) and the angle of the front face of the thumbhole. Bill found 63 degrees gave a nice hold for a full fingertip span with average thumb flexibility(about 105 degrees), wet/dryness, average thumb length.
This is also I believe in our refernce section out here.
But the 63 degrees is easy when converted to this!
4 1/4 full fingertip span is 0
for each 1/8 longer spanlength add 1/16 reverse.
For each 1/8 shorter span than 4 1/4 go 1/16 forward.
Droppers go 1/8 forward, hangers go 1/8 reverse.
For lateral pitch he used the coke bottle test. A thumb grabbing a coke bottle with the thumb bent...where does tip of the thumb point in the fingers.
if pointing to an index finger 1/8 lateral out!
If pointing to between index and middle then 0 lateral out!
If pointing to middle finger 1/8 lateral under palm.
If pointing to middle finger and ring 1/4 lateral under palm
If pointing to ring finger 3/8 lateral under palm.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS If I remember right Brick you had a stiff thumb less than 90 degrees flexibility. 105 is about standard, 90 is stiff, less than 90....real stiff...usually means more reverse than the tables....
PPS many find the above tables to be old fashioned. Too much reverse and too much under palm lateral(right for righties). Since I have moved to naked finger holes....I'm not so sure.....I do know that when one meets Bill Taylor he believes these reverse thumb pitches are a starting point. That one moves forward from here as they become more advanced and if flexible. They do not shorten their span however just to use a forward thumb pitch. I also know he is a devoted fan of lateral under palm pitch if called for by the coke bottle test). Many others believe the coke bottle test introduces too much lateral under palm for the modern game. Many others use the bunnetta method for thumb pitch.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 25, 2008, 10:10:00 PM
quote:
If I remember right Brick you had a stiff thumb less than 90 degrees flexibility. 105 is about standard, 90 is stiff, less than 90....real stiff...usually means more reverse than the tables....
LuckyLefty, for what ever reason, my thumb has apparently changed since discussing with you 4-5 years ago. For example, using the Jayhawk charts that JohnP provided a link to, my thumb is now 90 degrees (Average tight). And on lateral pitches when using the coke bottle test or grabbing the wrist test, my thumb used to point to just outside the index finger and I used 3/16 to 1/4 out pitch, whereas it now points between the index finger and middle finger which would indicate 0 lateral per the Bill Taylor Chart. Seems since I retired 7 years ago, my thumb has become a wee bit more limber than it used to be.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 8/25/2008 10:11 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on August 26, 2008, 08:34:40 AM
Using the measuring ball you can make as many changes to pitches and spans as need.
After each adjustment the measuring ball can then be thrown multiple times if needed in the air to the pro. The pro can see how the adjustments effect the release and the bowler can feel the grip and release.
Ideally the pro would have multiple weights of measuring balls so that the customer could feel the grip/release with at least close to the correct weight.
While this method is not absolutely fool proof it will get grip specs right 90+% of the time the first time. The few that are off are not generally off much just a little fine tuning maybe needed.
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 26, 2008, 11:46:45 AM
quote:
I have said in the past and continue to feel that the best way to determine a bowlers grip specifications is action testing in an adjustable measuring ball.
My driller doesn't have an adjustable measuring ball, so I am out of luck there.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 26, 2008, 12:03:25 PM
I have found a new and not super expensive way of testing spans and pitches.
Get a turbo or other brand switch grip with a slug.
Drill in a couple of span, pitch ideas into it, if one has a one inch thumb one can adjust span about 1/8 and pitches can be more or less reverse etc.
Brick....it is a long time ago but I remember your thumb being stiffer but about the same lateral.....I swear you tried it......a lateral of near 0....but didn't love it! I could be wrong.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: pin-chaser on August 26, 2008, 03:36:48 PM
However, the mechanics of the hand is simply not the only factors in determining pitches. Timing (using muscle in the swing), using muscle in your thumb (grabbing the ball), thumb hole size and many other factors help to determine the correct thumb pitches for any specific person.
To say the perfect pitches for a 4.25" span with someones hand that has normal flexability, thumb length, strength and moisture is 1/8" reverse and 0 lateral is rediculous for a bowler with late timing and likes to squeeze the ball. He will NEVER get out of the ball unless the thumb hole size is way to large.
The rule is there is no rule. There are starting points but they might not even be close in the end. Not to mention as a beginner bowler improves and swings loosen up the pitches in the thumb changes and the release improves and there are constant changes in everything.
So a definitive answer is just not possible. There is one guy I know who has a 15/16 size thumb who drills a 1 3/8 thumbhole with a span of 4.5" and uses 7/8 reverse. Of course he squeezes the thumb. Yet he averages 230+ for the last 20 years that way. Is that wrong? Who in there right mind would have ever recommended this? How can any set or rules cover this exception?
The perfect grip for anyone is one that the bowler accepts, feels right to them, allows them to release the ball the way they want with the consistancy they want. Forcing anyone to bowl like anyone else by stating rules that can not be written is just wrong.
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Post by: Smash49 on August 26, 2008, 05:36:40 PM
This has been changed.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
www.chisholmtraillanes.com
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 26, 2008, 06:06:09 PM
I mean it!
Glad to see him posting and you can't go to a better source that I know of!
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: JohnP on August 26, 2008, 10:17:15 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 26, 2008, 10:30:14 PM
quote:
Brick....it is a long time ago but I remember your thumb being stiffer but about the same lateral.....I swear you tried it......a lateral of near 0....but didn't love it! I could be wrong.
LuckyLefty, that is correct, but back then on the coke bottle test, my thumb was on the outside of my index finger and now it is between the index and middle finger. I have been throwing 0 lateral without any problem for approx. 20 months now. The reverse is what I am inquiring about with my questions.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: River700 on August 27, 2008, 02:05:33 AM
Please let me know thanks
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If your going to bowl...bowl for fun or go home
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 27, 2008, 10:15:46 AM
As to finger pitches....Bill Taylor claims the laterals are for comfort only and the forward reverses are for function.
REGards,
Luckylefty
PS In drilling I have found I need dramatically different laterals in Naked holes than in cushiony inserts!
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: qstick777 on August 27, 2008, 03:07:52 PM
quote:
The link to the chart on the Jayhawk site is below. -- JohnP
http://jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/thumbangle.pdf
If you're having trouble reading that:
http://qstick777.homestead.com/files/thumb_flex_chart.htm
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Post by: Brickguy221 on August 27, 2008, 05:19:29 PM
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: pin-chaser on August 28, 2008, 12:21:36 AM
I TOTALLY agree.. there MANY MANY MANY poor proshop operators that dont have a clue and honestly dont want a clue. They are happy and full of self righteousness to send bowlers out the door with the newest ball, that has no hope of scoring, that will end up destroying there hands and laugh about it all when they are out the door. Some say that causes built in repeat business. How is a client to know?
As for Bill Taylor and his book and theories... Bill Taylor is a REAL genious. Having spent some time with him, what he has done and attempted to do for this sport goes HUGELY unrecognized and unappreciated. While I am sure that he is 100% correct about his findings for ball drilling, I believe the game has changed since that printing (no square shoulders anymore, no loose armswings, as much power and revs as possible...etc) so much that his methods are a great starting point. However, I am not sure he would believe that. I think a new book will be printed soon that might shed some light on some newer concepts in fitting and drilling.
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Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
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Edited on 8/28/2008 0:37 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 28, 2008, 07:19:22 AM
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 28, 2008, 10:40:06 AM
quote:
There are a ton of really bad ball drillers in this world that are completely clueless as to the mechanics of the hand.
Smash, you are 100% correct here. It is sad that a bowler can go to 3-4 different pro shops and get entirely completely different opions/recommendations of what his pitches and span should be. I can understand maybe a slight variation from one shop to another, but not the wide variation that I have seen.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Smash49 on August 28, 2008, 11:03:27 AM
I was lucky enough to be able to sit down and talk with Bill Taylor a couple of years ago. His book was one of the first things I bought ($249.95 used)when I started having an interest in drilling. I told him I had a Brown copy of his book and he said he never printed any in brown. Mine was just so old that it had turned brown. It's printed in English and Japanese. Sandra gave me a new copy for my birthday a last year. I think it is a great starting point. IBPSIA is trying to update and modernize much of the technics for drilling and making this available by HOTS training. The craft is ongoing and changes as more knowledge is gained. The basic theories for the most part still apply.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
www.chisholmtraillanes.com
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 28, 2008, 12:11:48 PM
However he is really FOR lateral under palm pitches if they are called for by the coke bottle test. This is not a current position for most of today's bowlers.
I do not....I believe Parker Bohn went from lateral under left 1/4 a couple of years ago. I believe he tried 0, developed shoulder problems and now I believe he is 1/8 left. I have no idea if the shoulder problems had anything to do with this....but I know he can sure look great sometimes bowling now....AGAIN. Note this is the same as a righty going right if the thumb anatomy calls for it!
I know Deadbait has mentioned that there is call for lateral underpalm pitches when trying to achieve certain rolls.
I believe I am saying that right.
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: pin-chaser on August 29, 2008, 08:25:10 PM
No ones thumb is in the the center of there hand (or grip).. yet virtually all layouts used is the "T" grip. Now, I dont necessarily belive in the classic view of an offset thumb... however, drilling all holes based on the centerline of the "t" grip causes your hand to twist in order to put your thumb into the ball. Using two separate center lines (one for the fingers and one for the thumb) can reduce this twist and reduce stress of the hand and finger and improve the release by evaucating the thumb faster. When drawn on the ball, it appears as an offset thumb. In essence this is nothing more than tilting the holes when compared against the traditional "T" grip. I am working on developing some science behind this concept similar to what Bill Taylor has done or let me rephrase... continue Bill's work forward.
As for IPBISIA, they are a GREAT resource indeed. I advocate anyone so inclined to drill balls to attend there classes for ball fitting.
--------------------
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Post by: Brickguy221 on August 29, 2008, 09:26:37 PM
quote:
Using two separate center lines (one for the fingers and one for the thumb) can reduce this twist and reduce stress of the hand and finger and improve the release by evaucating the thumb faster. When drawn on the ball, it appears as an offset thumb. In essence this is nothing more than tilting the holes when compared against the traditional "T" grip
pin-chaser, amen to that. Rick Leong put me onto this type grip a little over two years ago when I went to California on vacation. It is so comfortable and a relief to get away from the sort of twisted feel of the straight T-Grip drilling. In a certain sense it is a bit like a CLT Grip, but not to that extreme. I
I have bought 2 new balls the past 5 weeks and drilled them with the original T-Grip like I used to have and how most people have, and have not liked the grip at all, so I am going to have my driller change them back to what you describe this next week. The balls won't have to be plugged and holes moved. All that will have to be done is leave the Thumb drilled on the center line it is drilled on now and pour the fingers and re-drill in exact same holes on a new center line 1/4 to 5/16 to the right of the thumb center line.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: pin-chaser on August 30, 2008, 08:48:24 PM
Sounds similar... I would be interested is knowing more about this guy and how he determines how far to offline the two centerlines. My theory is based on the physical mechanics of the hand... while others i have talked to is based loosely on guessing.
And I agree this is comfortable.
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Post by: Brickguy221 on August 31, 2008, 01:12:11 AM
The way he did my grip was....
1. Measured my hand and got my span and checked for finger and thumb stiffness at that time.
2. He then layed out the ball in a normal T-Grip layout.
3. Next he dropped the Ring Finger 1/8" and then drilled fingers off the T-Grip center line.
4. Next, he erased the thumb markings for the T-Grip and used my span measurements to find the new thumb location which was left of the orginal T-Grip thumb location. He then drew a new center line from the middle of the new thumb location up to the middle of the bridge between the fingers. The beginning point of this line was about 5/16 inch left of the original middle of thumb location on the T-Grip. He then drilled the thumb hole pitches off this new center line. This 5/16 inch will vary from bowler to bowler, depending on what the bowler's span is.
To sum it up, the finger pitches were drilled off the original T-Grip center line and the thumb pitches were drilled off the new center line.
Since that time, I have made a minor adjustment of dropping the Ring Finger 1/16 in place of the original 1/8 and with this change, this moving the thumb left is now about 1/4"+ (9/32").
Once you get these measurements right (9/32" for me), you can reverse how you do this if it is easier (it is for me and my driller) and draw a center line and mark the fingers and then drill the thumb first, then measure the determined amount right (9/32" for me) and draw a center line off this point and then drill fingers off that center line.
If I haven't explained this so that it is understandable, let me know and I will try again.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick