BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: tloy on July 13, 2019, 08:33:25 AM
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With all the new rules, no weight holes, no cleaners ect….It seems to me that USBC is totally ignoring the real issue. Walled up house shots and no control over the shot put out by the proprietors. I know this has been discussed before but I am all for setting up different levels of leagues with easy to harder to sport shots.
I have been bowling for 20 + years and have seen the advancements in technology. I agree the equipment has advanced signifigantly but so has the ability of modern lane machines to put down a very precise shot. I bowled on a high $ league 3 years ago that was 50 ft and flat. I could not get a Hyper cell to wrinkle on this.
I think the USBC needs to concentrate on this area first. Opinions?
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Everyone bowls on “50 foot flat†in “their†league. It’s so exhausting listening to some of you.
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Wait so the elephant in the room is top end equipment isn't strong enough? There are plenty of sport leagues in my area. You just have to decide to live in civilization. USBC needs BPAA lot more than vice versa so I wouldn't expect USBC to take much control of patterns any time soon (other than the classification scheme). That battle was decided long ago. If anything with elimination of 3 unit rule USBC is moving in opposite direction (wisely imo). The oil pattern to lay down for open bowling and different leagues is actually a major business decision lanes have to make and much less a purity of bowling the sport decision. People voting with their wallets generally decide the pattern. As Juggs says bowling is a business first and everything else second.
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USBC cant dictate league conditions. They tried but the proprietors have control over what conditions they want for their bowlers.
Most leagues are casual and don't want tougher conditions. It's one day a week for fun. If enough bowlers want something the proprietor is likely going to do that for a league because it's about business. Some proprietors have zero business sense, and that's a different issue.
Every league is different and making conditions tougher will lose more bowlers. It's a by league basis.
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Bowlers as a whole can't regulate themselves because the vast majority of us are whining crybabies. The minority wants a challenge, the majority want to come.in, shoot their 650, feel good about something in their lives, and go home.
The business of bowling will never cater to the sport of bowling, instead catering to the game of bowling. There's no incentive for people to get better.
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Most young bowlers tiday have the opportunity to play on more demanding conditions that require versatility. For those who dont want to challenge themselves, it is likely that tougher conditions would not improve their game. Nothing wrong with letting the majority of bowlers have fun and throw strikes.
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Northface, please don't misread what I am saying. I feel like the USBC is complaining that the scoring pace has gotten out of control with all of the 900's being shot. I feel like it is more the "adult Bumper Bowling" than the strength of the equipment. I have my share of the "strong" equipment but rarely use it. I have an original No Rules with less than 5 games on it...Just don't bowl on enough oil. I have been using 1990-2000 era Columbia equip and Lane Masters with success. Looking for other opinions and see if this is an accurate statement?
I agree with Doom on the Whining bowlers... The league I regularly bowl in , in the fall had a malfunction and put down a slick patter. I was able to pull out a decent 600 series with a Urethane beast. The complaining was pretty bad ..
To me the "Elephant in The Room" is the lane conditions are too wide open. Yes, Maybe, no????
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I bowl on a senior travel league and most of the houses lay down a little heavier oil pattern to adjust for the majority of the guys slower ball speed. A few houses don't and the boys go nuts!! whining and crying, too much hook,its actually kinda funny. Out of the 8 houses though all are easy but maybe one, So yes too easy for sure.
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I propose something no one has really mentioned. Maybe dumbing down the equipment and layouts might actually increase averages despite the lane conditions in league bowling. I feel most bowler's got sold on the "magic ball" and "magic layout" when all you really need is a consistent reacting ball with a cover matched to the volume of oil.
Instead of dragging 8-10 bowling balls to league with you trying to decide which one has the right programing drilled into it,bring 3 that will keep you in the pocket and adjust to work the pocket.
I respect and admire the guys who use one or two balls the whole season and average high all season compared to the high average guys who have to drag 8-10 balls with them to league. and the bowler's who make more with less were stroker's.
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I propose something no one has really mentioned. Maybe dumbing down the equipment and layouts might actually increase averages despite the lane conditions in league bowling. I feel most bowler's got sold on the "magic ball" and "magic layout" when all you really need is a consistent reacting ball with a cover matched to the volume of oil.
Instead of dragging 8-10 bowling balls to league with you trying to decide which one has the right programing drilled into it,bring 3 that will keep you in the pocket and adjust to work the pocket.
I respect and admire the guys who use one or two balls the whole season and average high all season compared to the high average guys who have to drag 8-10 balls with them to league. and the bowler's who make more with less were stroker's.
The guys that bring 8-10 to league aren't that good, unless you're bowling on a unknown sport shot that changes every week.
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With all the new rules, no weight holes, no cleaners ect….It seems to me that USBC is totally ignoring the real issue. Walled up house shots and no control over the shot put out by the proprietors. I know this has been discussed before but I am all for setting up different levels of leagues with easy to harder to sport shots.
I have been bowling for 20 + years and have seen the advancements in technology. I agree the equipment has advanced signifigantly but so has the ability of modern lane machines to put down a very precise shot. I bowled on a high $ league 3 years ago that was 50 ft and flat. I could not get a Hyper cell to wrinkle on this.
I think the USBC needs to concentrate on this area first. Opinions?
The USBC suspended the 3 unit rule and no longer requires centers to submit lane certifications because they believe modern bowling equipment changes patterns regardless of how the fresh pattern starts. In their mind, by regulating the equipment they are keeping the average pattern more playable for a longer period.
Every lane has its own unique topography that changes continuously over time. That being said, it makes sense for the USBC to consider a standardized national "USBC certified sanctioned house shot pattern" and a couple of other "USBC certified sanctioned" patterns for various types of sanctioned leagues. The proprietors could still put out whatever they wish for open play and unsanctioned leagues.
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With all the new rules, no weight holes, no cleaners ect….It seems to me that USBC is totally ignoring the real issue. Walled up house shots and no control over the shot put out by the proprietors. I know this has been discussed before but I am all for setting up different levels of leagues with easy to harder to sport shots.
I have been bowling for 20 + years and have seen the advancements in technology. I agree the equipment has advanced signifigantly but so has the ability of modern lane machines to put down a very precise shot. I bowled on a high $ league 3 years ago that was 50 ft and flat. I could not get a Hyper cell to wrinkle on this.
I think the USBC needs to concentrate on this area first. Opinions?
The USBC suspended the 3 unit rule and no longer requires centers to submit lane certifications because they believe modern bowling equipment changes patterns regardless of how the fresh pattern starts. In their mind, by regulating the equipment they are keeping the average pattern more playable for a longer period.
Every lane has its own unique topography that changes continuously over time. That being said, it makes sense for the USBC to consider a standardized national "USBC certified sanctioned house shot pattern" and a couple of other "USBC certified sanctioned" patterns for various types of sanctioned leagues. The proprietors could still put out whatever they wish for open play and unsanctioned leagues.
On paper pretty reasonable (though good luck getting people to agree on one or even a few patterns). BPAA could set up a USBF (federation, or association, etc) tomorrow though that didn't have that rule and exactly where is the USBC rules going to be in effect?
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I propose something no one has really mentioned. Maybe dumbing down the equipment and layouts might actually increase averages despite the lane conditions in league bowling. I feel most bowler's got sold on the "magic ball" and "magic layout" when all you really need is a consistent reacting ball with a cover matched to the volume of oil.
Instead of dragging 8-10 bowling balls to league with you trying to decide which one has the right programing drilled into it,bring 3 that will keep you in the pocket and adjust to work the pocket.
I respect and admire the guys who use one or two balls the whole season and average high all season compared to the high average guys who have to drag 8-10 balls with them to league. and the bowler's who make more with less were stroker's.
The guys that bring 8-10 to league aren't that good, unless you're bowling on a unknown sport shot that changes every week.
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BINGO!
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I propose something no one has really mentioned. Maybe dumbing down the equipment and layouts might actually increase averages despite the lane conditions in league bowling. I feel most bowler's got sold on the "magic ball" and "magic layout" when all you really need is a consistent reacting ball with a cover matched to the volume of oil.
Instead of dragging 8-10 bowling balls to league with you trying to decide which one has the right programing drilled into it,bring 3 that will keep you in the pocket and adjust to work the pocket.
I respect and admire the guys who use one or two balls the whole season and average high all season compared to the high average guys who have to drag 8-10 balls with them to league. and the bowler's who make more with less were stroker's.
The guys that bring 8-10 to league aren't that good, unless you're bowling on a unknown sport shot that changes every week.
Show me the donkey bringing 8-10 balls to league, for 3 games and I’d bet my life savings this dork averages 188.
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I propose something no one has really mentioned. Maybe dumbing down the equipment and layouts might actually increase averages despite the lane conditions in league bowling. I feel most bowler's got sold on the "magic ball" and "magic layout" when all you really need is a consistent reacting ball with a cover matched to the volume of oil.
Instead of dragging 8-10 bowling balls to league with you trying to decide which one has the right programing drilled into it,bring 3 that will keep you in the pocket and adjust to work the pocket.
I respect and admire the guys who use one or two balls the whole season and average high all season compared to the high average guys who have to drag 8-10 balls with them to league. and the bowler's who make more with less were stroker's.
The guys that bring 8-10 to league aren't that good, unless you're bowling on a unknown sport shot that changes every week.
Show me the donkey bringing 8-10 balls to league, for 3 games and I’d bet my life savings this dork averages 188.
Come on man, you know dudes that show up with 2 3 ball rollers to league like the shot is tough. Same dudes are probably still wearing a Cobra or Scorpion.
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I propose something no one has really mentioned. Maybe dumbing down the equipment and layouts might actually increase averages despite the lane conditions in league bowling. I feel most bowler's got sold on the "magic ball" and "magic layout" when all you really need is a consistent reacting ball with a cover matched to the volume of oil.
Instead of dragging 8-10 bowling balls to league with you trying to decide which one has the right programing drilled into it,bring 3 that will keep you in the pocket and adjust to work the pocket.
I respect and admire the guys who use one or two balls the whole season and average high all season compared to the high average guys who have to drag 8-10 balls with them to league. and the bowler's who make more with less were stroker's.
The guys that bring 8-10 to league aren't that good, unless you're bowling on a unknown sport shot that changes every week.
Show me the donkey bringing 8-10 balls to league, for 3 games and I’d bet my life savings this dork averages 188.
Come on man, you know dudes that show up with 2 3 ball rollers to league like the shot is tough. Same dudes are probably still wearing a Cobra or Scorpion.
Edit: Cobra on left hand, Scorpion on right hand.
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People show up to league with 6 balls for the same reason 18 handicap golfers buy $500 drivers. Its easier to try to buy a game than practice or take lessons
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I'm getting tired of tripping over all the bags laying around my center for the same shot year after year.
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I propose something no one has really mentioned. Maybe dumbing down the equipment and layouts might actually increase averages despite the lane conditions in league bowling. I feel most bowler's got sold on the "magic ball" and "magic layout" when all you really need is a consistent reacting ball with a cover matched to the volume of oil.
Instead of dragging 8-10 bowling balls to league with you trying to decide which one has the right programing drilled into it,bring 3 that will keep you in the pocket and adjust to work the pocket.
I respect and admire the guys who use one or two balls the whole season and average high all season compared to the high average guys who have to drag 8-10 balls with them to league. and the bowler's who make more with less were stroker's.
The guys that bring 8-10 to league aren't that good, unless you're bowling on a unknown sport shot that changes every week.
Show me the donkey bringing 8-10 balls to league, for 3 games and I’d bet my life savings this dork averages 188.
Come on man, you know dudes that show up with 2 3 ball rollers to league like the shot is tough. Same dudes are probably still wearing a Cobra or Scorpion.
Edit: Cobra on left hand, Scorpion on right hand.
Oooh, that's fancy.
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My beef with the USBC vs BPAA situation is that the USBC is paid by us to govern over what we do as bowlers. But, the BPAA dictates what we bowl on. What exactly is the USBC governing over?
On the issue of not wanting harder patterns so we don't have bowlers quit, bowling has been bleeding bowlers for 30 years despite the easy conditions. Why not try something different? Doing the same thing the same way over and over and expecting different results is Einstein's definition of insanity.
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My beef with the USBC vs BPAA situation is that the USBC is paid by us to govern over what we do as bowlers. But, the BPAA dictates what we bowl on. What exactly is the USBC governing over?
On the issue of not wanting harder patterns so we don't have bowlers quit, bowling has been bleeding bowlers for 30 years despite the easy conditions. Why not try something different? Doing the same thing the same way over and over and expecting different results is Einstein's definition of insanity.
What bowlers want for league conditions can be handled in house at any center between the league and the proprietor. If your league wants a harder condition ask for it. It's not for usbc to dictate to all leagues that usbc cant enforce in the first place.
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I can throw it bad on anything! :P :P
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My beef with the USBC vs BPAA situation is that the USBC is paid by us to govern over what we do as bowlers. But, the BPAA dictates what we bowl on. What exactly is the USBC governing over?
On the issue of not wanting harder patterns so we don't have bowlers quit, bowling has been bleeding bowlers for 30 years despite the easy conditions. Why not try something different? Doing the same thing the same way over and over and expecting different results is Einstein's definition of insanity.
What bowlers want for league conditions can be handled in house at any center between the league and the proprietor. If your league wants a harder condition ask for it. It's not for usbc to dictate to all leagues that usbc cant enforce in the first place.
^this. BPAA doesn't dictate. They are much more in tune with market forces than the USBC is. Customers very much dictate what patterns are out there. Don't fall for the what I want is what all league bowlers want fallacy. Customer bleed would be much worse if Bear became the new THS.
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The biggest problem with bowling isnt walled up league shots. If anything most league bowlers are more aware than ever of the difference between between house shots and tournament conditions.
More troubling to me is the extent to which technology has created the ability for players to over power the environment at the highest level. The PBA wont even use the Badger pattern anymore because of the way players trash it quickly with super high friction balls. For years it was understood that long formats were the only way to bring out the cream. Today we cant create an environment to even run a long format without dressing the lanes every 6 games.
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The biggest problem with bowling isnt walled up league shots. If anything most league bowlers are more aware than ever of the difference between between house shots and tournament conditions.
More troubling to me is the extent to which technology has created the ability for players to over power the environment at the highest level. The PBA wont even use the Badger pattern anymore because of the way players trash it quickly with super high friction balls. For years it was understood that long formats were the only way to bring out the cream. Today we cant create an environment to even run a long format without dressing the lanes every 6 games.
Sorry avabob, but I have to respectfully disagree. After working in a pro shop for over 14 years, most bowlers don't even like to move their feet a board or two. In theory, they think they know the difference, but they do not.
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I should have been more clear. I was addressing the game at the pro level. You are absolutely correct at the league level.
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Adapt or get run over. Bowling at the highest level is create friction and throw to it.
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Dont disagree on friction. Game at the highest levels would, on my opinion, be better if bowlers had to deal with both low and high friction environments, rather than simply blowing a hole on the former.
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I can throw it bad on anything! :P :P
same
But at least give me enough oil to try 1st arrow with something that's not pancake plastic :P
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I can throw it bad on anything! :P :P
same
But at least give me enough oil to try 1st arrow with something that's not pancake plastic :P
It doesn't exist in most house conditions.
If wanting to lower scores for integrity and eliminate equipment take away the oil. Shorter oil, lower volume. Scores will drop, some will be smart enough to use weaker equipment and spare. Most bowlers will be miserable, most centers will save money on oil, and bowling will be saved. Win, win
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Lowering scores will not save bowling it will kill it....do you think Joe bowler wants lower scores? No they want to stand in one spot and throw it to any spot and strike.
The only problem with bowling is the bowlers not the USBC not the BPAA not the balls or conditions just the bowlers
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If you take away the oil you just kill the sport as such - you will end up with bowling's origins, 9 pin Kegeln, where balls do not need any traction or side rotation and are just played down the lane out of the open hand. This is IMHO not a solution.
One problem is IMHO that the performance gap between pro bowlers who compete on demanding sport shots (and top notch conditions) and average Joe on a THS is not perceivable. Ever stronger balls make those happy who do not have a sound release technique and just want to see the ball hook, the more, the better. If things become demanding, it is always someone else's fault (too much oil, too little oil, blah...), but never the player him/herself.
Another issue is scoring as such - here in Germany we currently have the discussion in the background that official scoring is supposed to be converted to the simplified Global Scoring System, in which each frame is counted separately (Strike = 30, Spare = 10+score, open = frame score, no extra score in the 10th frame). I do not see any benefit behind this, except that scores, esp. of mediocre and beginner bowlers, will become highly inflated, because the system dramatically favors single strikes (and consistent chains), and the gap to good players will become much smaller. I am not certain about the outcome, and do not like the idea. This move will certainly add appeal to occasional players and beginners, but it won't do justice to "better" players. Any similar development/discussion in the USA, too?
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I can throw it bad on anything! :P :P
same
But at least give me enough oil to try 1st arrow with something that's not pancake plastic :P
It doesn't exist in most house conditions.
If wanting to lower scores for integrity and eliminate equipment take away the oil. Shorter oil, lower volume. Scores will drop, some will be smart enough to use weaker equipment and spare. Most bowlers will be miserable, most centers will save money on oil, and bowling will be saved. Win, win
Lowering volumes of oil doesn't automatically equate to lower scores. If you take some of the oil out of the middle, there will be a small handful of bowlers that won't be able miss by an arrow, complaining they are bowling on a "reverse block". The average league bowler won't notice, because they won't be accurate enough to tell the difference. The really good bowlers will have a more blended reaction.
The lane has to get to a point where at least some people use polished equipment again. If balls are so much stronger, than why does everyone use surface (talking about the PBA tour)? They have to, or the ball does tricks. More surface,and wiping the ball off to create fresh traction, means faster oil depletion.
Kegel has multiple times shown pattern graphs of the women compared to the men, and how each affect pattern breakdown. Higher rev rates break the pattern down faster and the lane gets more cliffed, period. The data is there. The women have a more gradual transition. They're using the same balls with just as much surface, if not more.
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I can throw it bad on anything! :P :P
same
But at least give me enough oil to try 1st arrow with something that's not pancake plastic :P
It doesn't exist in most house conditions.
If wanting to lower scores for integrity and eliminate equipment take away the oil. Shorter oil, lower volume. Scores will drop, some will be smart enough to use weaker equipment and spare. Most bowlers will be miserable, most centers will save money on oil, and bowling will be saved. Win, win
Lowering volumes of oil doesn't automatically equate to lower scores. If you take some of the oil out of the middle, there will be a small handful of bowlers that won't be able miss by an arrow, complaining they are bowling on a "reverse block". The average league bowler won't notice, because they won't be accurate enough to tell the difference. The really good bowlers will have a more blended reaction.
The lane has to get to a point where at least some people use polished equipment again. If balls are so much stronger, than why does everyone use surface (talking about the PBA tour)? They have to, or the ball does tricks. More surface,and wiping the ball off to create fresh traction, means faster oil depletion.
Kegel has multiple times shown pattern graphs of the women compared to the men, and how each affect pattern breakdown. Higher rev rates break the pattern down faster and the lane gets more cliffed, period. The data is there. The women have a more gradual transition. They're using the same balls with just as much surface, if not more.
Great point on the reverse block statement. Some guys miss by more than a arrow and poke their eye out in the process and proclaim it’s a “reverse blockâ€.
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Sarcasm guys. I stopped taking this stuff seriously awhile ago. It's irrelevant.
Leagues are irrelevant for me.
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Sarcasm guys. I stopped taking this stuff seriously awhile ago. It's irrelevant.
Leagues are irrelevant for me.
Without leagues, there is no pool to get tournament bowlers. This is a huge misconception of leagues being irrelevant.
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I actually like how things are now and bowling is pretty healthy in my area with lots of options for different skill levels. Live in middle of large metro area though so sure things might look different in other areas. Still baby with the bath water and all that.
Also always neat to hear from you Dizzy. Well for better or worse the US moving to a simplified global anything tends to only work on paper. Don't see that being a problem any time soon for us (except perhaps at international competitions). We are usually ok being the one black sheep on stuff.
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I can throw it bad on anything! :P :P
same
But at least give me enough oil to try 1st arrow with something that's not pancake plastic :P
It doesn't exist in most house conditions.
If wanting to lower scores for integrity and eliminate equipment take away the oil. Shorter oil, lower volume. Scores will drop, some will be smart enough to use weaker equipment and spare. Most bowlers will be miserable, most centers will save money on oil, and bowling will be saved. Win, win
Lowering volumes of oil doesn't automatically equate to lower scores. If you take some of the oil out of the middle, there will be a small handful of bowlers that won't be able miss by an arrow, complaining they are bowling on a "reverse block". The average league bowler won't notice, because they won't be accurate enough to tell the difference. The really good bowlers will have a more blended reaction.
The lane has to get to a point where at least some people use polished equipment again. If balls are so much stronger, than why does everyone use surface (talking about the PBA tour)? They have to, or the ball does tricks. More surface,and wiping the ball off to create fresh traction, means faster oil depletion.
Kegel has multiple times shown pattern graphs of the women compared to the men, and how each affect pattern breakdown. Higher rev rates break the pattern down faster and the lane gets more cliffed, period. The data is there. The women have a more gradual transition. They're using the same balls with just as much surface, if not more.
Great point on the reverse block statement. Some guys miss by more than a arrow and poke their eye out in the process and proclaim it’s a “reverse blockâ€.
When I scream out "HOLD", it should hold, dang it!!
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For competitive bowling, when did everyone start getting told what pattern you were on? Why not go back to "it's a mystery" ... and have the players figure it out?
Bowling is WAY to dependent on equipment. This layout, that layout, this surface, that surface, this shape, that shape ... it's enough to make your head explode. You fall over all the bags everywhere you go and there is usually nowhere to sit. The fact that people drag 6+ balls to a semi-competitive local tournament is absolutely stupid.
I think recreational bowlers would like the simplification of equipment. It would be much more affordable ... HELLO !!!! - this is what made bowling so popular up until the 1980s. The $220 ball (and you feel like you need 3 of them) and the $4 beer have done more to hurt the sport than help ..... just my .02.
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For competitive bowling, when did everyone start getting told what pattern you were on? Why not go back to "it's a mystery" ... and have the players figure it out?
Bowling is WAY to dependent on equipment. This layout, that layout, this surface, that surface, this shape, that shape ... it's enough to make your head explode. You fall over all the bags everywhere you go and there is usually nowhere to sit. The fact that people drag 6+ balls to a semi-competitive local tournament is absolutely stupid.
I think recreational bowlers would like the simplification of equipment. It would be much more affordable ... HELLO !!!! - this is what made bowling so popular up until the 1980s. The $220 ball (and you feel like you need 3 of them) and the $4 beer have done more to hurt the sport than help ..... just my .02.
They did that for USBCs and so many guys soaked their tampons and maxi-pads it was a legit red wedding.
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Sarcasm guys. I stopped taking this stuff seriously awhile ago. It's irrelevant.
Leagues are irrelevant for me.
Without leagues, there is no pool to get tournament bowlers. This is a huge misconception of leagues being irrelevant.
Such a large number of league bowlers don't bowl tournaments. Local association tournaments are almost non existent here. Leagues are rarely competitive and aren't "producing" tournament bowlers in my area. If there were the same number of tournaments available locally during the league season as in the summer I could skip joining league all together.
Still I enjoy my 20 week doubles league.
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
Market 36 week leagues anyway you want. The results will stay the same.
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
Market 36 week leagues anyway you want. The results will stay the same.
Best way is as 3, 12 week leagues that just happen to follow each other. Oh and give $2 open bowling games the rest of the week as well as a few free games. Seems to work on me (even if I do end up pre bowling most of the season).
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A business should give away or drastically discount their product because you patronize the establishment once a week at full price?
Do you work for half your wage on Thursdays and for free on Fridays?
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
Market 36 week leagues anyway you want. The results will stay the same.
I agree. Perception is everything for a 36 week league.
We had a 10 week league with 2 weeks off in between. People regularly would bowl 4 times without a thought, 40 weeks, but would never consider a 36 week, straight through league. In a couple instances, some teams bowled 50 weeks in 1 "season".
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Sarcasm guys. I stopped taking this stuff seriously awhile ago. It's irrelevant.
Leagues are irrelevant for me.
Without leagues, there is no pool to get tournament bowlers. This is a huge misconception of leagues being irrelevant.
Such a large number of league bowlers don't bowl tournaments. Local association tournaments are almost non existent here. Leagues are rarely competitive and aren't "producing" tournament bowlers in my area. If there were the same number of tournaments available locally during the league season as in the summer I could skip joining league all together.
Still I enjoy my 20 week doubles league.
Every local tournament I have ever bowled, has about at best a 1/4 of the field you need to pay attention to. The others are the league bowlers that want to bowl a tournament for the first time, or just want an experience.
On rare occasions, is a field full of true tourney bowlers. Those cases, there is generally a very high payout and entry fee, but still are some guys just looking for experience.
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A business should give away or drastically discount their product because you patronize the establishment once a week at full price?
Do you work for half your wage on Thursdays and for free on Fridays?
Hey Bowlero made the offer not me. But is exactly the kind of sweetener to get someone who is not that into the social aspect of bowling to bowl leagues (for record not supposed to use during peak hours). If didn't get reduced cost games odds very good wouldn't bowl league at all and I love bowling (people another story). They are really pushing leagues now smartly imo. Lots of entertainment options out there have to compete against that don't require such a commitment including open bowling.
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For competitive bowling, when did everyone start getting told what pattern you were on? Why not go back to "it's a mystery" ... and have the players figure it out?
Bowling is WAY to dependent on equipment. This layout, that layout, this surface, that surface, this shape, that shape ... it's enough to make your head explode. You fall over all the bags everywhere you go and there is usually nowhere to sit. The fact that people drag 6+ balls to a semi-competitive local tournament is absolutely stupid.
I think recreational bowlers would like the simplification of equipment. It would be much more affordable ... HELLO !!!! - this is what made bowling so popular up until the 1980s. The $220 ball (and you feel like you need 3 of them) and the $4 beer have done more to hurt the sport than help ..... just my .02.
They did that for USBCs and so many guys soaked their tampons and maxi-pads it was a legit red wedding.
Did what?
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
Market 36 week leagues anyway you want. The results will stay the same.
Best way is as 3, 12 week leagues that just happen to follow each other. Oh and give $2 open bowling games the rest of the week as well as a few free games. Seems to work on me (even if I do end up pre bowling most of the season).
I love to bowl. The center in which I bowl offers free open bowling [as many games as you want, whenever they have available lanes] all summer long in any of their three centers if you join a summer league. I have my free bowling pass and literally NEVER use it.
During the fall season, they offer $1.50 per game open bowling every Sunday morning from 9am-12noon. I rarely, if ever, do that either.
Cheap open bowling does not entice me at all. When I want to practice (which is rare), I simply do it when the desire hits me and pay whatever the price is when I go there.
My biggest issue with league bowling isn't the length of the season, it is the fact that most league bowlers are there for the socializing and take their sweet time bowling. They frolic around the center, are rarely ever ready to go when it is their turn, and are more worried about what to eat and drink then actual bowling. It should NOT take 3 hours to bowl three games. A couple of weeks ago on our 4-man summer league we were down 2 bowlers. So there were only 6 of us on the pair. It still took 3 HOURS to bowl. At one point a guy on the other team says "Hey everyone, take your time. I am going outside for a smoke". 10 minutes later he strolled back in and resumed. Heaven forbid you say anything...all you get back is "I will take my g-- d--- time! I pay good money to be here and I am not going to let anyone tell me when I should be taking my turn. F--- you!"
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
Market 36 week leagues anyway you want. The results will stay the same.
Best way is as 3, 12 week leagues that just happen to follow each other. Oh and give $2 open bowling games the rest of the week as well as a few free games. Seems to work on me (even if I do end up pre bowling most of the season).
I love to bowl. The center in which I bowl offers free open bowling [as many games as you want, whenever they have available lanes] all summer long in any of their three centers if you join a summer league. I have my free bowling pass and literally NEVER use it.
During the fall season, they offer $1.50 per game open bowling every Sunday morning from 9am-12noon. I rarely, if ever, do that either.
Cheap open bowling does not entice me at all. When I want to practice (which is rare), I simply do it when the desire hits me and pay whatever the price is when I go there.
My biggest issue with league bowling isn't the length of the season, it is the fact that most league bowlers are there for the socializing and take their sweet time bowling. They frolic around the center, are rarely ever ready to go when it is their turn, and are more worried about what to eat and drink then actual bowling. It should NOT take 3 hours to bowl three games. A couple of weeks ago on our 4-man summer league we were down 2 bowlers. So there were only 6 of us on the pair. It still took 3 HOURS to bowl. At one point a guy on the other team says "Hey everyone, take your time. I am going outside for a smoke". 10 minutes later he strolled back in and resumed. Heaven forbid you say anything...all you get back is "I will take my g-- d--- time! I pay good money to be here and I am not going to let anyone tell me when I should be taking my turn. F--- you!"
Best advertisement ever for doubles leagues.
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I love to bowl. The center in which I bowl offers free open bowling [as many games as you want, whenever they have available lanes] all summer long in any of their three centers if you join a summer league. I have my free bowling pass and literally NEVER use it.
During the fall season, they offer $1.50 per game open bowling every Sunday morning from 9am-12noon. I rarely, if ever, do that either.
Cheap open bowling does not entice me at all. When I want to practice (which is rare), I simply do it when the desire hits me and pay whatever the price is when I go there.
My biggest issue with league bowling isn't the length of the season, it is the fact that most league bowlers are there for the socializing and take their sweet time bowling. They frolic around the center, are rarely ever ready to go when it is their turn, and are more worried about what to eat and drink then actual bowling. It should NOT take 3 hours to bowl three games. A couple of weeks ago on our 4-man summer league we were down 2 bowlers. So there were only 6 of us on the pair. It still took 3 HOURS to bowl. At one point a guy on the other team says "Hey everyone, take your time. I am going outside for a smoke". 10 minutes later he strolled back in and resumed. Heaven forbid you say anything...all you get back is "I will take my g-- d--- time! I pay good money to be here and I am not going to let anyone tell me when I should be taking my turn. F--- you!"
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Ahhh! That is that summer league Riff Raff! and that's the nature of summer league! Been there and done that. I bowl in one summer league and I see it all the time!
That being said, I know how it's going to be so I don't get upset. In fact, I socialize right along with them LOL! For me, summer league is just for practice and fine tuning!
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Unfortunately fall leagues are the same around here. I tolerate it because I love to bowl, but some nights are just way out of control.
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Anyone who takes summer league seriously should think about going to the beach instead.
As previously stated summer league is for practicing and keeping your game fine tuned for the fall season.
However, life is to short, so don't forget to have fun with the people in the summer league while your doing it.
Fall league not so much!
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For competitive bowling, when did everyone start getting told what pattern you were on? Why not go back to "it's a mystery" ... and have the players figure it out?
Bowling is WAY to dependent on equipment. This layout, that layout, this surface, that surface, this shape, that shape ... it's enough to make your head explode. You fall over all the bags everywhere you go and there is usually nowhere to sit. The fact that people drag 6+ balls to a semi-competitive local tournament is absolutely stupid.
I think recreational bowlers would like the simplification of equipment. It would be much more affordable ... HELLO !!!! - this is what made bowling so popular up until the 1980s. The $220 ball (and you feel like you need 3 of them) and the $4 beer have done more to hurt the sport than help ..... just my .02.
They did that for USBCs and so many guys soaked their tampons and maxi-pads it was a legit red wedding.
Did what?
I think he is referring to when USCB did not disclose the Nationals patterns.
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
Market 36 week leagues anyway you want. The results will stay the same.
i'm not speaking directly to the 36 week league, but sure shorten the leagues that still doesn't fix the core issues of bowling. when i talk about marketing bowling i'm not talking about trying to fill a league. think about it for a second WWE is held in higher esteem than bowling as far as sports go and that is scripted and a show.
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
Market 36 week leagues anyway you want. The results will stay the same.
i'm not speaking directly to the 36 week league, but sure shorten the leagues that still doesn't fix the core issues of bowling. when i talk about marketing bowling i'm not talking about trying to fill a league. think about it for a second WWE is held in higher esteem than bowling as far as sports go and that is scripted and a show.
People still watch wrasslin?
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everyone is over thinking this, the issue is pretty simple... bowling has had a marketing problem for a long time. there simply needs to be more programing on TV, that is the only way to rebrand bowling. blaming conditions and equipment is short sighted, golf has easy courses and hard courses and game improvement equipment too, there isn't an issue there. because they have the right marketing and the right image.
Market 36 week leagues anyway you want. The results will stay the same.
i'm not speaking directly to the 36 week league, but sure shorten the leagues that still doesn't fix the core issues of bowling. when i talk about marketing bowling i'm not talking about trying to fill a league. think about it for a second WWE is held in higher esteem than bowling as far as sports go and that is scripted and a show.
Most of the #savebowling seems to be geared towards league. We keep hearing how USBC sanction numbers are down from previous decades. Bowling is too easy. Too much technology. Conditions are too easy. blah blah blah. Then we get the post about how JR Gold is proof bowling isn't dead. We need to keep these kids interested in bowling.
That trying to address a lot of different factors that requite different groups to work together. Guess what bowling isn't....groups working together and or transparency.
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Most of the #savebowling seems to be geared towards league. We keep hearing how USBC sanction numbers are down from previous decades. Bowling is too easy. Too much technology. Conditions are too easy. blah blah blah. Then we get the post about how JR Gold is proof bowling isn't dead. We need to keep these kids interested in bowling.
That trying to address a lot of different factors that requite different groups to work together. Guess what bowling isn't....groups working together and or transparency.
Have league divisions been discussed? Like when I played youth club soccer, there was a Gold division, a Silver Elite division, a Silver division, and a Bronze division.
I would be wayyy more interested in bowling sanctioned leagues if I could bowl in the hardest division. Not necessarily in terms of how strong the competition is, but in terms of how difficult the lane conditions are. I wouldn't mind carrying a 160-170 average on Red Square.... Throwing 200 on a super hard shot is way more enjoyable for me than shooting 250 on a house shot.
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Have league divisions been discussed? Like when I played youth club soccer, there was a Gold division, a Silver Elite division, a Silver division, and a Bronze division.
I would be wayyy more interested in bowling sanctioned leagues if I could bowl in the hardest division. Not necessarily in terms of how strong the competition is, but in terms of how difficult the lane conditions are. I wouldn't mind carrying a 160-170 average on Red Square.... Throwing 200 on a super hard shot is way more enjoyable for me than shooting 250 on a house shot.
My center floated the idea of splitting leagues based on averages, and the idea was met with great resistance. Bowlers said it would prevent them from bowling with their friends, family, and other league bowlers they like to spend time with. So the bowling center dropped the idea. Now they are raising the handicap on several of the leagues to address complaints that the handicap isn't high enough and the better bowlers "always win". Of course the raising of the handicap is causing people to threaten to drop off the leagues because it favors the more recreational teams.
The funny thing is if you mention scratch leagues to the bowlers complaining about too much handicap, they refuse. So the same bowlers that rarely ever get handicap don't want to bowl scratch because they wouldn't get any handicap.
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I still remember back in the early 60s listening to guys on the loaded teams win the league every season and complain about all the handicap the bottom teams got.
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I still remember back in the early 60s listening to guys on the loaded teams win the league every season and complain about all the handicap the bottom teams got.
Back when hdcp was something like 70% of 200?
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Sarcasm guys. I stopped taking this stuff seriously awhile ago. It's irrelevant.
Leagues are irrelevant for me.
Without leagues, there is no pool to get tournament bowlers. This is a huge misconception of leagues being irrelevant.
Such a large number of league bowlers don't bowl tournaments. Local association tournaments are almost non existent here. Leagues are rarely competitive and aren't "producing" tournament bowlers in my area. If there were the same number of tournaments available locally during the league season as in the summer I could skip joining league all together.
Still I enjoy my 20 week doubles league.
Every local tournament I have ever bowled, has about at best a 1/4 of the field you need to pay attention to. The others are the league bowlers that want to bowl a tournament for the first time, or just want an experience.
On rare occasions, is a field full of true tourney bowlers. Those cases, there is generally a very high payout and entry fee, but still are some guys just looking for experience.
I fit into that 3/4 that donate at an occasional tournament. Enjoyed the one non-champions that I bowled in and would definitely do it again. Trade a couple early 150 games for 180 and I would have gotten out with my entry fee. There are a lot of very high average league bowlers that need to bowl in Sport tournaments and quit being afraid that they might not average 220+.
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Want an opinion you don't get often? I think the only restriction on ball specs should be overall weight and size. Drill 40 holes in it if you want. You want five pounds of side weight? Go for it, big boy. Let me see you control that thing when you pull it a half board.
People don't want harder conditions/shots/equipment. About 10-15 years ago all the top bowlers in the leagues I was on got together and started demanding a tougher shot. So the house put together a scratch league bowling on rotating PBA/Kegel patterns. Took about a month for the same bowlers to start griping that they weren't scoring high enough.
I've only seen one house put down tough shots in the face of bowler objection and survive for a long time: Leland Lanes in Tuscaloosa, Ala. Took us 33 weeks to get the first 600 series in the league one year on a 16-team, 5-man men's league. They just went out of business this year (a Bowlero opened down the street). Leland's shot was roughly 27 feet, 12 units from 10-board to 10-board and 10 units from 2-board to 10-board. It was blown out by the time practice ended, whether anyone was throwing resin or not.
In the end, it doesn't matter. The house will use what it uses. We've been arguing about this for a half century. Or more.
Jess
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Got 30 guys bowling a summer sport league here. It goes up every year
Also runs during the winter. If want respect from other bowlers you bowl the sport league. Rolling ip 230 averages on house shots impresses nobody unless they can back it up on a tougher pattern
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Our summer singles sport shot league continues to increase each year. It started with 22 bowlers a few years ago. This summer that number has increased to 68 bowlers.
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Got 30 guys bowling a summer sport league here. It goes up every year
Also runs during the winter. If want respect from other bowlers you bowl the sport league. Rolling ip 230 averages on house shots impresses nobody unless they can back it up on a tougher pattern
Preach!!!!!
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Got 30 guys bowling a summer sport league here. It goes up every year
Also runs during the winter. If want respect from other bowlers you bowl the sport league. Rolling ip 230 averages on house shots impresses nobody unless they can back it up on a tougher pattern
Every year I bowl a THS league and Sport Shot league. I do the Sport Shot league to work on skills. I could care less who it impresses.
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I remember over 20 years ago, one of the first things I did with Internet was I think a usenet group on bowling.
There was a massive thread on the topic if reactive resin was ruining the sport.
Seems that as long as we have had reactive balls, people who care enough about bowling are complaining online that things being to easy is bad for the sport.
From what I can tell, people like to bowl on easy conditions. Those of us who bother to go online to talk bowling are the minority.
During the summer there are some sport shot leagues across long island, but that's it. Actually, one house put on their fall league flyer a sport shot league. I actually signed up for it, but would guess is almost certainly is not going to actually happen.
I don't think bowling being too easy is reason for the sports decline. I really don't think it has much to do with bowling itself. It's changes in a culture where people work longer hours, for less money and bowling is a sort of luxery, greater social isolation, probably more adrenal fatigue and less energy to want to go out and do something at night as well.
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Prior to reactive resin lane conditions had to be very easy for scoring to be even decent. ABC allowed 24 to 28 foot walls and scoring was really good. Unfortunately this addicted a generation of bowlers to unlimited swing area. Resin balls actually reduced the need for wet dry walls of the urethane era, but instead of blending out the patterns lane men simply started going longer with higher volumes of oil to combat the effects of resin.
As a real old timer I didnt feel I needed the walls in the lacquer era prior to the mid 70's. However the harder urethane finishes and subsequent synthetic lanes made me want the easy lanes. Flat patterns were brutal. When resin came out us old strokers loved it because we once again could utilize the hold area and not worry about the carry down that was always a killer for urethane on short oil.
If the modern lane conditioning technology had existed in the 80s it would have been possible to develop challenging yet playable patterns of varying lengths for high level scratch bowlers, and resin could have been banned before it was introduced.
Short oil and hard lane finishes spawned the modern power game, which in turn paved the way for reactive resin and for a short time leveled the playing field between power players and straighter players. As power players learned to harness the friction of resin, it once again made the straight player a niche competitor.
Bottom line, the worst thing about resin balls is the way they can destroy oil patterns so quickly, not how high scoring they can be. Lane conditioning technology has advanced tremendously since pre resi, but cannot keep up with the powerful shells of the resin balls in the hands of the modern power player.
In a game where the cream always came to the top over time, longer formats are a joke without constant re oiling between squads.
Just as an aside, people were complaining about walled up lanes ruining the game in the 1970s when soft polyester came out. Decline of league membership never had anything to do with scoring. It wsd just an excuse for people who were tired of the long term committment of leagues
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>From what I can tell, people like to bowl on easy conditions. Those of us who bother to go online to talk bowling are the minority.
TL;DR version. Most people prefer open bowling to committing to league and most of those who do bowl league don't want to pay money to struggle. And rural areas bleeding especially younger people to sun belt cities is a huge factor to make leagues seem dying in some areas. They aren't dying at least in this fast growing metro area. Sport shot leagues to be found as well as whatever kind of league you want here. Plenty of tournaments as well.
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I too often make the mistake of posting from the perspective of the high level scratch community. I think bowlers who want to compete for large prize funds at the scratch level should should embrace and strive to learn to play a variety of tournament patterns. Alternatively I think bowlers who want to have fun and throw strikes should not be pushed to play on tough patterns. There should be room for both worlds with the sophistication of modern lane conditioning.
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My experience (pre-resin, pre- synthetics) was similar to Avabob's recollection (we are in the same age bracket). One exception though. During the lacquer era (1960s), and prior to walls and lane blocking, conditions were usually very tough, with few exceptions. Stringing strikes was hard to come by. In a few instances, the lane track could produce high scores, but in my neck of the woods, this was a rarity. Nobody, and I mean nobody, averaged north of 205 and the few that did, they were the absolute best in the entire region. I am talking about some really good players too. With the advent of polyurethane coatings (circa 1973), proprietors could no longer oil the lanes the way they did on lacquer. Oil got pushed down the lane, causing an epidemic of out-of-ranges. Balls "rooster-tailed". In 1977, that changed. The ABC basically threw its hands up, and that started the "wall" epidemic. Scores and averages began to dramatically rise--- overnight too. From that point on, the typical "house shot" has resulted in a flood of oil in the middle, with lots of friction out to the edges. Back in the 1960's, we oiled the lanes from gutter to gutter (with a spray can). There was no help to the right and no "hold" in the middle.
I remember a quote from a PBA Hall of Famer. He said that anybody who shoots an 800 series had "help". I maintain the same logic could easily apply to anybody who claims to have averaged 220 in the 1960s. If they did average 220, they had "help" too. Some proprietor was walling up the lanes (illegally). Otherwise, that type of average would have been next to impossible to achieve back then.
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It really depended on the area during the lacquer era. Lots of corner shot houses, and houses with a great track inside 10 board in our area.. Pocket was easy, but if you pulled a board or 2 into the oil carry was poor with the hard rubber balls. Only about 5 guys in town over 200 until after 1970. 1975 was th e breakout season for scoring here. Soft plastic balls and guys getting better at walling them up raised my average from 200 to 214 that season. Not just me, we recorded 8 800s that year after only having 2 in the orior history of the association. Bowled a swiss tournament in Portland Ore that year and ot took a 230 average to cash in the sweeper singles
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I don't think bowling being too easy is reason for the sports decline. I really don't think it has much to do with bowling itself. It's changes in a culture where people work longer hours, for less money and bowling is a sort of luxery, greater social isolation, probably more adrenal fatigue and less energy to want to go out and do something at night as well.
Thanks for this, because it's what I've been saying now for 10+ years and people are just now starting to come around en masse.
This site got pretty toxic about 10 years ago when the real hardcore "It's all about the scoring pace" guys would take over every thread about what was causing a decline in bowling. If you looked closely at the time, you could see the same thing happening in local golf, softball and tennis leagues. It's all about the changes in society, from the loss of the shift worker to the rise of social media and what it is doing to people's desire (or lack thereof) to interact with other humans in person.
The only difference for bowling is it has taken bowlers longer to admit the truth to themselves. The scoring pace issue is one of jealousy from those who were high achievers in a more low-scoring time and can't bring themselves to embrace the notion that scoring pace is not tied to skill on a 1:1 basis. We never should have gotten concerned with that issue. It cost us a decade or more of yelling at each other rather than getting out and recruiting new bowlers.
Jess
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Reading about the past is somewhat interesting.
I got my first finger tip ball in 1994, So I'm just young enough to have missed out on the whole urethane era.
Since I've gone no-thumb I almost exclusively throw urethane. I only use balls that flare, otherwise the carry down make the shot unplayable after a few frames. It must have been crazy in the 80's with everyone throwing it.
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rebel,
In the 80's all patterns were short oil 30ft max so it was not as much of an issue. Also the urethane balls from the 80's vs. urethane today are not even close to the same. I have a purple Nitro from 1988 (approx.) and a 2018 purple pearl hammer. With the hammer I have to be 15+ boards left of where I throw the Nitro and a completely different ball motion. Certain conditions today demand urethane, but not too many house patterns do even if you are no thumb or a 2 hander.
Jeff S.
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Actually. Carrydown could be brutal in the 80s unless the pattern was a total top hat wall. Ther was no buff out on most of the short patterns used back then.
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Actually. Carrydown could be brutal in the 80s unless the pattern was a total top hat wall. Ther was no buff out on most of the short patterns used back then.
A lot of that depended on how often the center stripped too. Using a Sun night strip, the pattern got progressively better as the week went on, until about Thurs, which is when it started to get ugly with too much carrydown. A refresh of the heads each night followed by the ole "duster".
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Again, it depended on the pattern. Prior to short oil rule in early 80s carry down was brutal on flat patterns. Oil went off the heads and down lane quickly. Lane men flooded the heads and stripped the back end more frequently to preserve back end reaction, but it actually worsened carrydown on urethane and synthetic finishes. Short oil rule allowed lanemen to put no oil outside which helped the carrydown problem. Shot actually got better as oil carried down the middle, but none was their to carry down outside.
I bowled tournaments on flatter patterns where we had unlimited swing during warmups and were literally pointing it up off the gutter by midway through the second game.