Post by: RyboFlavin on November 22, 2011, 05:46:05 AM
With it being so easy to pretty drastically change the reaction of modern equipment by making minor surface modifications (going from 1000-2000-4000 grit, etc.), I've always wondered why the manufacturers place huge engraved logos right in the track area. How can this not affect the reaction when such minor surface changes do affect it? Anyway, just something I've been curious about.
Edited by RyboFlavin on 11/22/2011 at 2:46 PM
Post by: completebowler on November 22, 2011, 03:23:41 PM
Well the reaction is going to be the same from shot to shot if you are rolling over the logo the same each time. But I agree that they could shift the logo away from the area that quite often ends up in the track area.
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Post by: JustRico on November 22, 2011, 03:42:43 PM
With the amount of individuals that roll the ball differently, as well as the amount of flare that the stronger cores create where do you think a safe zone is? The way balls are laid out there are NO safe areas for logos....
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Post by: completebowler on November 22, 2011, 05:32:33 PM
Ten inches left of the CG perpendicular to the pin/CG line. Granted there are tons of different styles and left/right delivery but this would move it away from the majority of bowlers and layouts.
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Post by: JOE FALCO on November 22, 2011, 06:13:23 PM
Appears that MOTIV has resolved this problem!!
Post by: scotts33 on November 22, 2011, 10:33:35 PM
So true!
Scott
Post by: completebowler on November 22, 2011, 10:45:29 PM
Very good point.
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Post by: kidlost2000 on November 23, 2011, 12:05:39 AM
"1 of 1."
Post by: scotts33 on November 23, 2011, 04:26:42 AM
I'll put the flip side on it.
How many worry about dings and gouges in your track? How is that different than rolling over engravings?
Scott
Post by: kidlost2000 on November 23, 2011, 07:04:59 AM
"1 of 1."
Post by: Good Times Good Times on November 23, 2011, 07:15:53 AM
I like a little track put on the ball from the old wood lanes I bowl on, for some reason (may be psychological) balls seem more consistant shot to shot. But chunks (even small ones) and gouges......I just wont throw that ball or I'll have it cut on the resurfacing machine and start fresh. Placement of engravings personally don't bug me, but to each their own I suppose.
GetOffMe10Pin
"America was established not to create wealth but to realize a vision, to realize an ideal - to discover and maintain liberty among men." - Woodrow WilsonPost by: Walking E on November 23, 2011, 10:50:33 AM
I always wondered how much the engravings affect ball motion - if at all. I know some people don't believe it affects anything, but when we're talking about today's hypersensitve coverstocks, it's hard for me to imagine that it doesn't have SOME effect.
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Post by: Locke on November 23, 2011, 01:52:14 PM
Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 23, 2011, 03:58:40 PM
I believe (only my opinion) that the engraving has little to no effect on the pin mix. Chips/nicks in the tract area (from what I've heard) have a bad reaction on the ball roll (have no idea why) .. if the chips do have an effect on ball roll then I would imsgine that engraving in the tract area would alco effect the roll .. does anyone have experience to conclude that ball roll is effected by chips in the tract area?
Post by: kidlost2000 on November 23, 2011, 04:46:02 PM
Hypersensitive coverstocks? What is that? Todays bowling balls have bigger hooking more aggressive covers then ever. It's not plastic or urethane where your trying to split boards, most people are just trying to put the ball some where on the right half of the lane and hope it doesn't over hook.
My guess is that if logos were a negative issue in any form it would be addressed. With all the money spent on cores and coverstock technologies it would be an inexpensive problem to fix.
I guess with people hooking the ball more then ever I'm not sure how it could be much of a thought to someone. Honestly you got straight bowlers throwing hook monsters covering more boards then they can handle, and logos may be taking away from that??? Really??? 97% of the ball vs maybe 3% at most.
"1 of 1."
Post by: Aloarjr810 on November 23, 2011, 05:11:54 PM
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Post by: mainzer on November 23, 2011, 07:05:00 PM
Anyone that notices a change in ball motion or reaction over engraved areas is a far better bowler than I.
Regardless of the engravings, you still have to throw the ball consistently to throw strikes, that is all I would worry about.
MainzerPower
Post by: scotts33 on November 24, 2011, 12:35:58 AM
Exactly...how many have you thought or heard that chips and gouges in your track would effect ball motion/roll? Umpteen times old timers have heard this. How is this different than deep engravings?
Scott
Post by: aussiedave on November 24, 2011, 06:55:23 AM
Agree with the OP completely.
There is ample space on the other side of the ball (sorry lefties).
I have a Tropical Storm and upon examination, the big ole logo appears to be a pressure type stamp and the resin between the stamp lines actually protrudes up in a bubble type effect, creating a ripple type surface on the area occupied by the logo - right on the track path if you prefer a standard type pin up drilling config. Annoying.
ad.
Post by: kidlost2000 on November 24, 2011, 07:49:59 AM
I guess it is sad that bowling balls haven't come far enough for bowlers to get past logos so they can increase their scores. And thus the true reason bowlers can't shoot scores.
Large divots, gashes, and belt marks I can understand because of the surface taken out of the ball and the obvious sounds it makes going down the lane. The ball sounds like a flat tire, but logos not so much. Very few bowling balls I have had, even with large logos, make a sound going down the lane. The ones that did still hooked a ton and struck.
Maybe bowlers that are having difficulties could start a petition to manufactures to fix the errors.
"1 of 1."
Post by: Aloarjr810 on November 24, 2011, 08:03:40 AM
In regards to what the OP asked "why the manufacturers place huge engraved logos right in the track area" the reason is simple. When they show bowling on tv, thats the side of the ball that faces the camera the most. It for advertizing.
Imho having the logo there is meaningless, its one of those things that if you look at it on a computer. Its going to say that the engraving affected some aspect of the balls reaction .0000000000000001% as to it not being there. Which means in the real world, nobody is going to be able to tell a difference.
Imho having the logo there is meaningless, its one of those things that if you look at it on a computer. Its going to say that the engraving affected some aspect of the balls reaction .0000000000000001% as to it not being there. Which means in the real world, nobody is going to be able to tell a difference.
(Just so everyone knows the number
.0000000000000001% is a made up number used as a example of some theoretical ball test computer result. Its not from the USBC, The Ball MFG.s or NASA and I never stated it was real.)
Aloarjr810
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Edited by Aloarjr810 on 11/25/2011 at 10:25 AM
Post by: kidlost2000 on November 24, 2011, 08:36:32 AM
"1 of 1."
Post by: aussiedave on November 24, 2011, 10:04:40 AM
aloarjr810 said:-
Its going to say that the engraving affected some aspect of the balls reaction .0000000000000001% as to it not being there.
I ask, where did you get this figure from?
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Post by: Aloarjr810 on November 24, 2011, 11:03:46 AM
Its just a bogus figure which Im sure most figured it was. I used it to show how in some computer simulation it would show some minor variation in the balls reaction.But which in actual use nobody could tell a difference in the balls reaction. (though I'm sure there's bowlers here that will say they can tell)
I should have figured someone would see that number and start yelling weres the proof assuming I was stating a some fact. Even though I never said it was a real figure.
Aloarjr810
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Click For My Grip
Edited by Aloarjr810 on 11/25/2011 at 10:36 AM
Post by: RyanRPS on November 25, 2011, 09:48:13 AM
Gota say, this made me LOL... not saying it is or isn't true, but how the heck do you measure "Pin Action" ?! Never mind be able to quantify it in such a way as to be able to say that one ball gets 21% more pin action than another?!
Personally I believe that rolling over the engravings has pretty much no effect on the ball motion.. I just lifted the closets ball to hand and counted the most lines of engraving the ball would roll over... was 22... each engraving line measures about 0.5mm... so in your entire track your going to be off the surface of the ball for about 11mm say... so about 1.5% of your track...
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www.seismicbowling.com
Edited by RyanRPS on 25/11/2011 at 10:49 AM
Post by: dizzyfugu on November 28, 2011, 02:22:36 AM
IMHO, engravings do not affect the ball reaction at all. Even if there is an influence, it will occur consistently, so the result is IMO negligible.
Anyway, I have had issues with the filled Brunswick-type engravings, on my Awesome Finish. The ball reacted horribly OOB, with a very inconsistent break point. Took some time to figure out that it actually were the HUGE engravings and their plastic filler material which protruded remarkably from the surface. This obviously made lane contact poor, and it seems that this had been one of the early quality issues at the Mexico plant. I shaved the excess stuff away and everything became much better. Never had this phenomenon with standard engravings, though.
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Post by: Locke on November 28, 2011, 11:21:59 AM
He actually explained it a little to me. He said they engraved a latitude and longitude pattern on the ball then used a throwing machine to throw consistently. They then used high speed cameras to capture the the speed and deflection angles of the pins and it was based on those measurements that they came to this conclusion.
Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it
Post by: RonaldHickland on November 28, 2011, 03:21:55 PM
Logos and engravings used by Ebonite International are solely for aesthetic purposes. There have been no studies conducted on the effect of engraving on ball performance.
Ronald Hickland
Ball Design Engineering Manager
Ebonite International
Post by: Jesse James on November 28, 2011, 03:31:47 PM
Lol! This must be an interesting topic if you guys got the "Zenmaster" himself to respond!! Good job!
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Post by: RyanRPS on November 28, 2011, 06:23:16 PM
I'm not supprised after that 21% comment lol.... goes to show that 50% of all statistics are made up :-P
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Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on November 28, 2011, 07:00:13 PM
Wive's tale. The switch to laser is because there is no cutting tool to wear out and it is infinitely adjustable. Entertaining story to tell over a beer.
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