BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Bowl_Freak on July 07, 2013, 09:46:06 AM
-
I know many on here run or own shops. I've been wanting to start my own shop for the longest time, only part time to start and if the money is good to move to full time, I'll go that route. What I'm wondering, whats a good starting amount that yall started with when yall started, 20k, 25k, 50k etc. Thanks for info.
-
A mutual friend got his going with 40k, which included everything in the shop (counters, inventory, press, spinner, etc) Might be able to get a package from Jay hawk, and start with a small selection to start with.
-
Are you talking about Paul Jeremy. How's his shop doing?
-
Yeah. Shops around here are hurting no matter what, but he's still afloat.
-
Yeah, 40k would get you top of the line stuff that would last you for a while plus a decent amount of inventory.
-
Be careful regarding inventory. You can tie a bunch of cash up that sits, and sits, and sits, waiting to be bought.
In today's environment of "the latest and greatest" balls out every 3-4 months you will be best served to have some polyester (10, 12, 14, 15 lbs.) in stock, and mostly 15 lb. performance or reactive stuff on your wall, with some 14s in stock. Lighter weight reactive stuff will sell occasionally, but your avid buyers aren't usually throwing them. Order those as needed, too.
Most customers don't care if you have every wrist brace/support on the market as long as you can get one within a few days. Keep the everyday things like tape, finger inserts and popular sizes of shoes on hand always. A good inventory of finger inserts can add up fast. The performance shoes can also be ordered as needed.
I have helped my friend in his shop for over 10 years now, and see the challenges he faces from day to day. Good luck.
-
If you start with used equipment and decent inventory and some halfway nice displays you could probably get by on 20k. If you've never been in the industry before you would be crazy going out and buying new everything to start.
-
Getting all of the tools is a big deal. The mill and bits, a dodo scale, spinner and the small stuff cost some money. I bought Ebonite's pro shop coordinator. It's worth every dime as a point of sales system and inventory manager. Inventory should change so quickly that you would want something like it. I turned my major inventory every 30 days and rarely ordered the same ball more than 3 times. Usually I would place orders for that ball by the case and once gone time to move on. 30 grand is a good starting point.
Smash49
-
Be careful regarding inventory. You can tie a bunch of cash up that sits, and sits, and sits, waiting to be bought.
In today's environment of "the latest and greatest" balls out every 3-4 months you will be best served to have some polyester (10, 12, 14, 15 lbs.) in stock, and mostly 15 lb. performance or reactive stuff on your wall, with some 14s in stock. Lighter weight reactive stuff will sell occasionally, but your avid buyers aren't usually throwing them. Order those as needed, too.
Most customers don't care if you have every wrist brace/support on the market as long as you can get one within a few days. Keep the everyday things like tape, finger inserts and popular sizes of shoes on hand always. A good inventory of finger inserts can add up fast. The performance shoes can also be ordered as needed.
I have helped my friend in his shop for over 10 years now, and see the challenges he faces from day to day. Good luck.
+1
-
Getting all of the tools is a big deal. The mill and bits, a dodo scale, spinner and the small stuff cost some money. I bought Ebonite's pro shop coordinator. It's worth every dime as a point of sales system and inventory manager. Inventory should change so quickly that you would want something like it. I turned my major inventory every 30 days and rarely ordered the same ball more than 3 times. Usually I would place orders for that ball by the case and once gone time to move on. 30 grand is a good starting point.
Smash49
+1 Pro shop coordinator is an absolute must.
-
Is this at home or in a center?
-
$40k is WWWAAAYYYY too much unless you're going into a center where the shop is going to do at least $150k annually. If you shop smart you can get everything pretty cheap...you don't need a brand new drill press...buy a used one. Shops are going under left and right.
I opened my shop in February 2011 and only spent $18k. This was inventory, press, remodeling, everything.
Over the next 2 years I have reinvested in inventory and now have gone from $7k in stock to over $15k in on hand inventory. You can buy yourself into a hole right away....ONLY BUY WHAT YOU NEED. You don't need to put a 12lb Defiant Soul in stock....put 18 reactive balls (2 at each price point and a few more entry level) and 2 of each weight plastic balls to start (vary the colors to make the wall LOOK full). This gives the customer options, but if they want something else you can order it.
-
$40k is WWWAAAYYYY too much unless you're going into a center where the shop is going to do at least $150k annually. If you shop smart you can get everything pretty cheap...you don't need a brand new drill press...buy a used one. Shops are going under left and right.
I opened my shop in February 2011 and only spent $18k. This was inventory, press, remodeling, everything.
Over the next 2 years I have reinvested in inventory and now have gone from $7k in stock to over $15k in on hand inventory. You can buy yourself into a hole right away....ONLY BUY WHAT YOU NEED. You don't need to put a 12lb Defiant Soul in stock....put 18 reactive balls (2 at each price point and a few more entry level) and 2 of each weight plastic balls to start (vary the colors to make the wall LOOK full). This gives the customer options, but if they want something else you can order it.
True, I suppose we all just assumed it was going to be in a center. And it really depends on what kind of equipment he's going for, a Jayhawk Tri-Oval would be most of that 18k you spent right up front. I'll echo the rest. We carry a mix of 14 and 15 lb reactives, a few 12s for like the Cyclones and Misfits, then an assortment of White Dot colors, but you also have to pay attention to what sells in your area. We don't stock any Track, any Ebonite (besides the Cyclones) or any Columbia because we just aren't able to sell it here. Storm, DV8 and Motiv are our big sellers. So within the 18 reactives that Russell suggested, make sure that you've done your homework on what sells in your area. Posters are big too, if people don't know it exists, they won't order it, so putting Viz-a-ball posters up, and assorted fliers from the ball companies (who will send you 8x11 graphic posters for new balls) up will still showcase balls that you don't have in your inventory. The smaller stuff can be pretty big for you too. When we started ordering the scented Storm grip sacks, we can't keep them on the shelves, they're super popular with the kids.
-
Thinking you need a NEW Tri-Oval to open a p/t shop is a crazier idea than opening the shop in the first place.
OK, I'll say it. Why would anyone want to open a pro shop in the first place? I'd estimate I've physically been in somewhere between 20-25% of the shops in the country. The shops that amount to a profitable business (something greater than just paying wages) is probably around 5%.
I get the whole "enjoy what you" do argument, I've been there. But there isn't much enjoyment dealing with the public who thinks you work on normal retail markups and are making money hand over fist when in reality you can barely pay the rent.
-
Thinking you need a NEW Tri-Oval to open a p/t shop is a crazier idea than opening the shop in the first place.
OK, I'll say it. Why would anyone want to open a pro shop in the first place? I'd estimate I've physically been in somewhere between 20-25% of the shops in the country. The shops that amount to a profitable business (something greater than just paying wages) is probably around 5%.
I get the whole "enjoy what you" do argument, I've been there. But there isn't much enjoyment dealing with the public who thinks you work on normal retail markups and are making money hand over fist when in reality you can barely pay the rent.
Don't need one, but if you're trying to make it your business, I myself would rather get something new and top of the line than to keep buying new ones or upgrading every couple years, you'll spend more money that way. Our shop still runs the same tri-oval that was purchased when the shop and center opened 12 years ago, and the repairs have been just normal maintenance and wear and tear.
You make good points though. With the MAP pricing, we sell stuff for as cheap as we're allowed to, which means we hardly make anything on equipment, but people come in and see the prices and think we're gouging them. It's even harder to start because most distributors have pricing tiers depending on how much you order from them annually, so you're going to pay more to start out with. When somebody comes in and buys a ball for 160 and complains about it, they don't realize that you paid 140 for it. Need to sell 8 balls a day just to pay salary, and I can assure you that doesn't happen unless you're in a really big market.
It's a lot easier to make money if you as the owner are working it yourself. You won't make much money at all if you're paying someone to work for you, but that more often happens when you have several shops or have made your money and are retired. My boss owns 6 shops, runs one himself, and recently co-purchased the center that our shop is in, so now he's making a fair amount of money, but he's spent nearly the last decade in getting here, and laid a lot of groundwork while he was in college just to get started. So it's not easy, and quite frequently frustrating, but getting started is the hard part. If you do good work, you'll build it to the point you'll wish you could walk into the alley without people meeting you at the door asking for stuff once and a while. Really depends on how busy you are too, if you get to the point where it's full time, you won't mind so much.
-
What is the difference between you using a 12 year old Tri Oval and opening a shop with a 12 year old Tri Oval?
Getting started is the easy part compared to dealing with employees in 6 different shops. I get a headache just thinking about that.
-
What is the difference between you using a 12 year old Tri Oval and opening a shop with a 12 year old Tri Oval?
Getting started is the easy part compared to dealing with employees in 6 different shops. I get a headache just thinking about that.
We have some pretty good guys working for us, most of us have known each other for a while and the managers are all pretty good guys, but yeah it's a lot of paperwork at least.
The only difference I'd see is that our Tri-Oval is a lot closer to needing to be replaced than a new one would be, plus you never know when a big part is going to go out. Really no different than buying a new car vs a used car. I've had both, and though I hated the monthly payment on my new car, all I ever had to do was put gas in it and change the oil, so it's peace of mind and not having to worry about expensive fixes, because it will be covered under warranty for a while. Plus with a new one, you don't have to wonder how it was treated, and if the proper maintenance was done on it. But yeah, with a part time shop, getting a used one and just upgrading the parts when you can would probably be the best way to go, so long as you don't get unlucky and have a major fix to pay for after a couple months.
-
I know they guy I've bought from for years has been fairly lucky. The lanes his shops are in don't really charge him anything to be in there and he has almost no overhead. This allows him to drop the prices on balls and still make money, which helps with sticker shock. I'm always shocked to hear about people paying over 200 bucks for a ball, I think the highest I've seen him get is 185 or so on the top end balls.
His place is very small, but he's smart with what he keeps in house, and he can get most everything in a day ( maybe even same day if you get a hold of him early). Anything that an average bowler wouldn't use on a normal basis, or if its not something someone new to the game wouldn't buy you will need to order it.
Every once and while he will take a gamble on something and get stuck with it and be forced to offer it at crazy prices just to move it, but overall he's pretty smart with it.
-
Why is it shocking for someone to pay $200 for a new high end ball? Just because your overhead is low doesn't mean you should devalue your services. Even if you buy the ball online your looking at least $190 drilled with no inserts. So dealing with a customer face to face is worth giving THEM $5.
This is why I say it is crazy to want to get into the pro shop business.
-
I think the only reason it's shocking is that prices have gone up so much so fast, and the fact that 200 bucks is a lot of money, and to spend it on a single bowling ball drives people nuts. I don't know, people still act like it's 1990. Don't know why people can keep up with other sports, but can't with bowling. They'll drop 400 on a driver without batting an eye, but 250 for a top of the line ball is insane.
-
Why is it shocking for someone to pay $200 for a new high end ball? Just because your overhead is low doesn't mean you should devalue your services. Even if you buy the ball online your looking at least $190 drilled with no inserts. So dealing with a customer face to face is worth giving THEM $5.
This is why I say it is crazy to want to get into the pro shop business.
There is a reason I've never bought a ball online, its cheaper to buy it from him and I can get the exact weight and specs I want. Now we aren't talking a ton cheaper ( usually the 5 dollar range or so), but when you have almost zero overhead you can make the same profit margin as other shops do with higher prices. People come from around the area to buy from him, so those slightly lower prices are netting him more sales.
Basically his deal is if you buy a ball from him, you get a bit of a break on the drilling cost. However if you buy it online and bring it, his services come at a premium. I honestly think its a pretty smart setup.
I know he once told me though, that once a ball breaks that $160 dollar mark the sales drop off pretty drastically. It drops to almost non-existant once it breaks that $200 mark.
Your average bowler just has a hard time fitting $200 balls into their budget. While $185 may not be that much cheaper, in a buyers mind it sounds a whole hell of a lot better and it might be just right to get them to buy it.
Companies spend billions a year just studying that very thing.
-
I think the only reason it's shocking is that prices have gone up so much so fast, and the fact that 200 bucks is a lot of money, and to spend it on a single bowling ball drives people nuts. I don't know, people still act like it's 1990. Don't know why people can keep up with other sports, but can't with bowling. They'll drop 400 on a driver without batting an eye, but 250 for a top of the line ball is insane.
As someone that used to golf as well, I wouldn't pay 400 bucks for a driver either :P
Probably a lot of that as well has to do with the type of people in the sport. Bowling is kind of regarded as a blue collar sport where Golf is more of a white collar sport.
Most of the bowlers I have been around at least make from 40k to 80k a year. Those people are generally buying $130 dollar balls, and buying $175 discounted drivers if they play golf. I can probably count on one hand the number that are buying $200 balls and $400 drivers :)
-
I guess it depends where you live and where you are in life if $200 is a lot of money. But that's a whole other discussion.
It doesn't take billion dollar studies to know that as price goes up demand goes down.
I still don't understand why anyone would deal with a customer and then sell them a product for less than they can buy it anywhere. When I ran the shop there was no chance somebody that I dealt with face to face was getting the same price as we sold it online, never mind less.
Obviously as a consumer you want to buy something as cheap as you can. But the point I'm arguing is from the other side. There is no way a new high end bowling ball should go out of a pro shop for $185.
-
Anyone want to compare ball prices 20 years ago to now....and then adjust them for inflation....
Then explain why $200 is shocking....
-
I can't remember prices at the beginning of the reactive era because I wasn't in a shop, but I remember getting $120 for U-Dots and Hammers and 10 years ago I was getting $200 for high end.
-
Anyone want to compare ball prices 20 years ago to now....and then adjust them for inflation....
Then explain why $200 is shocking....
Shocking why they don't cost more? Yeah, I get your point. Like ArmourBoy said, we kind of have the same set up on prices. We charge 30 to drill if the ball is bought from us, and 45 if it's an outside drill, meaning bought somewhere else. Yeah, everybody always looks for discounts, and they want it as cheap as they can get it, but getting your stuff from a good shop is worth it. Had a buddy get a Misfit from Dick's for like 100 bucks out the door. Drilling was so bad he couldn't throw it, it looked like a bad house ball drill, the bridge was almost an inch wide . . so you get what you pay for. We do our pricing a la carte for the people that like price shopping, plus it breaks it down better.
-
You can't compare a real pro shop and Dick's. That would be the equivalent of me expecting the same steak at Sizzler as I get at Morton's.
Is there any less skill and knowledge or any less risk in drilling a ball purchased from you and not? If a person comes into your shop and you fit, drill and finish a ball for them it is going to be around an hour. And you do this for $30?
The internet guys get that much (plus inserts) and all they do is pull up specs, lay it out, holes, back in the box. 10 minutes. The truck on tour gets more than $30 and they charge additional to drill slugs, and they charge per oval. No layout and no finish work.
There is no other trade that will do anything for you for $30 an hour. I can't even get somebody to cut my lawn for those rates. Why charge so little? You have to believe that you knowledge and skill are worth something and be able to sell yourself. A pro shop should not feel guilty about charging an honest rate.
-
You can't compare a real pro shop and Dick's. That would be the equivalent of me expecting the same steak at Sizzler as I get at Morton's.
Is there any less skill and knowledge or any less risk in drilling a ball purchased from you and not? If a person comes into your shop and you fit, drill and finish a ball for them it is going to be around an hour. And you do this for $30?
The internet guys get that much (plus inserts) and all they do is pull up specs, lay it out, holes, back in the box. 10 minutes. The truck on tour gets more than $30 and they charge additional to drill slugs, and they charge per oval. No layout and no finish work.
There is no other trade that will do anything for you for $30 an hour. I can't even get somebody to cut my lawn for those rates. Why charge so little? You have to believe that you knowledge and skill are worth something and be able to sell yourself. A pro shop should not feel guilty about charging an honest rate.
30 for the drill, 5.50 apiece for grips, 14 for slug . . And I wasn't comparing Dick's to a real pro shop, just an illustration about people going for cheap and getting what they paid for. Our owner does the different pricing on drilling to encourage people to buy from us, kind of like a frequent customer discount, a lot of shops do this actually. And I think there's actually less risk in doing an outside drill, it's just an incentive deal. We also are in a low cost of living market too, you can get a newer 2000 sq ft house with 3 bedrooms and 2 full baths in a nice part of town for less than 150k.
-
$75 sf housing and cheap gas are a couple of advantages of living in one of the "fly over" states.
But, the ball doesn't cost you any less just because your house does. I'm pretty sure they don't discount an iPhone for you and Toto.
-
$75 sf housing and cheap gas are a couple of advantages of living in one of the "fly over" states.
But, the ball doesn't cost you any less just because your house does. I'm pretty sure they don't discount an iPhone for you and Toto.
Lmao, true, it just means we can't sell the balls for as much as the bigger markets can. Some prices are across the board constants, but just like our gas here right now is only 3.15 a gallon, and the house I described is cheaper than it would be somewhere else, bowling is one of those fluctuating things. Our costs are cheaper here than they are elsewhere, and our margins are still in a good range, and we still have to stay competitive with the other shops in the area.
-
Bowling balls should be one of the across the board constants as the balls cost the same no matter where you are. Higher cost of living areas should adjust up.
I live in CT. There aren't $75 sf houses in the ghetto. I tell the guys here selling high end for 200 they are nuts. Should be 240 here.
-
Bowling balls should be one of the across the board constants as the balls cost the same no matter where you are. Higher cost of living areas should adjust up.
I live in CT. There aren't $75 sf houses in the ghetto. I tell the guys here selling high end for 200 they are nuts. Should be 240 here.
Yeah you would think, but if we're selling balls for 40 bucks more than they can get it for somewhere else, it doesn't matter how good we are, they're not gonna spend the extra money. The most expensive ball we sell is the Sync, and it's going for 185, now that's just for the ball, doesn't include grips or drilling or anything, but yeah you're right, it should be more, but the internet has hurt pro shops a lot. I'd almost rather just do outside drills, because it's 100% profit without having to stock anything, but I'd rather make less and still sell a ball, than not sell a ball and make nothing at all. Our services are reasonable and appropriate prices, but we can't afford to sell balls or shoes at appropriate prices or we never would.
-
You stated somewhere else that you sold balls at MAP, then said you drilled for 30, so I'm thinking 189 plus inserts when you are really 215 plus. So you guys get 225-235 for the latest high end. Nuttin' wrong with dat.
-
Well for me, I'll be getting a Hammer First Blood for $185 and they are throwing in an Arson Low Flare for free ( not really a big Hammer area and I guess he can't get rid of them). It will cost me 10 bucks for each slug and then 10 bucks for each set of grips so thats another 40. Still a hell of deal.
So normally for me that ball listed at $185 would be $205 plus tax after its drilled ( and we have really high sales tax here).
-
You stated somewhere else that you sold balls at MAP, then said you drilled for 30, so I'm thinking 189 plus inserts when you are really 215 plus. So you guys get 225-235 for the latest high end. Nuttin' wrong with dat.
Well we used to, but apparently he's been easing the prices up gradually, we used to sell the balls for the same price they were on bowling.com, that avoided the "well I can get it for cheaper online" debate. I just assumed the MAP pricing had risen.
-
Well for me, I'll be getting a Hammer First Blood for $185 and they are throwing in an Arson Low Flare for free ( not really a big Hammer area and I guess he can't get rid of them). It will cost me 10 bucks for each slug and then 10 bucks for each set of grips so thats another 40. Still a hell of deal.
So normally for me that ball listed at $185 would be $205 plus tax after its drilled ( and we have really high sales tax here).
Makes sense, we've done stuff like that before. Lol, our sales tax here is 9.95%, how's that for high?
-
Well for me, I'll be getting a Hammer First Blood for $185 and they are throwing in an Arson Low Flare for free ( not really a big Hammer area and I guess he can't get rid of them). It will cost me 10 bucks for each slug and then 10 bucks for each set of grips so thats another 40. Still a hell of deal.
So normally for me that ball listed at $185 would be $205 plus tax after its drilled ( and we have really high sales tax here).
Makes sense, we've done stuff like that before. Lol, our sales tax here is 9.95%, how's that for high?
Hah do you live in Tennessee? I think ours including the city is at or slightly above 10%.