BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Neptune66 on May 02, 2019, 02:14:05 PM
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I have a tendency to want to put a ball away after I've had a really good game with it, and my friend (and teammate) says that's selfish if I do it in league.
I can see his point if the team is still in contention for the playoffs and if the game was a 230 or better or with a really strong finish. To put the scores in perspective, I'm only averaging 172 in this league, but 180+ in my other two leagues, and even with those averages, used to get my fair share of 220 or better games. But not so much this year.
And my team was out of contention weeks ago and we're only bowling for points, but still... I bowled a 215 the first game and then decided to switch to a different ball. I had my reasons and again... the 215 was a solid, reasonable game for me ... and clean too. But it wasn't like I was on fire at any point. And I really thought the ball I switched to would work better or at least as good.
It was a colossal mistake with a bad result, and my friend remembers that earlier in the month I had bowled a 255 in the 2nd game and then put that ball away for the 3rd, with similar results. And even that time, I felt that even though I was throwing a phenomenal shot, I was really laboring to get the ball far enough down the lane to maintain the shot, and decided to switch balls before I started missing my mark if I didn't keep the speed up. He accused me of wanting to put the first ball away so I could put it (figuratively speaking) in a trophy case. He was not 100% wrong, but he was not 100% right either.
Unfortunately that perception is there now. I'm not clairvoyant, so am I not allowed to guess which ball I THINK will be best in the next game....even if it's not the one I just bowled great with?
Granted... if we were in the playoffs or in contention, I would be much more conservative and not want to change ANYTHING. Even what I had for dinner or what street I drove on, etc... and, of course, the ball. But we are NOT in contention, and 215 was decent ---especially for me in that particular house---- but it was not phenominal and off the charts, so I don't agree with my friend's view.
Am I a jerk?
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Short sighted teammate that only sees scores and not actual ball reaction.
I had a clean 226-206 Monday night, but I knew I wasn't getting the right shape through the pins. Made a switch to get a different shape and finished 258.
When you understand ball reaction and your equipment, it allows you to make decisions that a lot of average bowlers don't really see
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I bowl in a second shift scratch league full of good bowlers, but I choose teammates who I want to bowl with, rather than ones who might max out our team strength, but be jerks if someone has a bad night, etc.
It's a long season full of highs and lows by every bowler, so a little kindness and understanding goes a long way in the team chemistry department. Team chemistry is critical when you want feedback (or are asked for feedback) regarding ball choice, angle to the pocket, or any other time when an extra set of eyes are needed.
Bowling should be fun. Anything less will be disappointment over the long haul.
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Only you will really know why you put the ball away but I can see your teammate's view as well. If you put the ball away because you knew you were going to shoot 700 with it and wanted to keep your average down for handicap you probably should be tossed out of the league. If you did it because you can't throw the ball faster and feel that balling down will give you a better chance to score better than by all means change. I've done that often only to go back to the original ball after making a bad choice.
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Time to be completely honest with yourself...
Why are you truly putting the ball away after good games?
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You're not a bad teammate. As you stated your team was not in any kind of contention, so if you wish to do what you did that's your call.
Now if you had a good look in competition where it mattered, then that's another story.
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You're not a bad teammate. As you stated your team was not in any kind of contention, so if you wish to do what you did that's your call.
Now if you had a good look in competition where it mattered, then that's another story.
This.
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Is it still USBC Rule 17a regarding unfair tactics in order to gain an unfair advantage? Otherwise just known as sandbagging.
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Is it still USBC Rule 17a regarding unfair tactics in order to gain an unfair advantage? Otherwise just known as sandbagging.
If someone accused me of bagging because of a ball change, there would be an altercation. Where I'm from, you call someone out, you better have rock solid proof
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Are you a jerk? No. Good bowlers trade one ball reaction for another all the time, even after decent games, as they read the pattern shifting. However...good bowlers do that well. 170-180 ave bowlers do that...well, like they average 180 (read: late novice, early intermediate bowler). I would suggest the next time you're in this situation that you ask your teammate to watch your shot and discuss whether the best adjustment is a move or ball change.
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So what happens when you bowl bad and continue to use the same ball, while trying different foot, target, hand or speed adjustments, which may not be as obvious to them? Are they asking you to change balls?
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Is it still USBC Rule 17a regarding unfair tactics in order to gain an unfair advantage? Otherwise just known as sandbagging.
If someone accused me of bagging because of a ball change, there would be an altercation. Where I'm from, you call someone out, you better have rock solid proof
I understand that accusing someone of sandbagging is a bad accusation but the he did say that the team wasn't in contention anyway. When you use your team's standing in the league as a factor to switch balls in a manner that appears to be noncompetitive it does open you up to be questioned. Would he make the same choice if his team was 1/2 point out of first place and this is the last week of league?
I only bowl regularly in a scratch Sport league. No motivation to sandbag and everyone averages around 20 -30 pins less than they would on a THS. It can be very humbling. Getting your feelings hurt by shooting 150 after a 220 is common.
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So what happens when you bowl bad and continue to use the same ball, while trying different foot, target, hand or speed adjustments, which may not be as obvious to them? Are they asking you to change balls?
Excellent point here!
In addition, I feel that sometimes Joe Bowler goes through ball changes because he feels obligated, since he lugged 7 balls into league on a house shot... ;)
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So what happens when you bowl bad and continue to use the same ball, while trying different foot, target, hand or speed adjustments, which may not be as obvious to them? Are they asking you to change balls?
Excellent point here!
In addition, I feel that sometimes Joe Bowler goes through ball changes because he feels obligated, since he lugged 7 balls into league on a house shot... ;)
I feel that way about everything in my basement.
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I think a lot of you guys are missing something here.
Reread the OPs first sentence of his post:
I have a tendency to want to put a ball away after I've had a really good game with it, and my friend (and teammate) says that's selfish if I do it in league.
He admits it’s not solely because he feels a ball change is necessary due to lane conditions.
He has to be honest on why he’s doing it.
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The ball is reacting well
Your game was clean, meaning when you were inconsistent the result was made spares
You were 40 pins over average
As a 170 -180 bowler this is utopia
Im willing to bet you changed balls and continued to play the same area on the lane
A bowler is usually in the 180 average range due to inconsistency
By changing balls for no solid reason your contributing to that tendency
I suggest you use your final shot (3rd ball) in the 10th to "test" the other ball
If your wrong you only cost your team a couple of pins
If your right you will benefit both yourself and your team
This is smart play assuring you are an asset to your team
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Out of curiosity, what is the typical game like after changing balls? Do you always score worse or is it only some of the time?
I get the impression from your team's response that you don't have the best of luck after changing balls. And as an outsider, if I continually see someone shoot good 1st game scores only to change balls and proceed to average 50 pins less for games 2 and 3, you can bet there will be some rumblings about sandbagging.
And as others have stated, standings in the league ideally shouldn't dictate your decision making. The goal is to shoot the best on every ball you deliver. That includes those balls delivered in the 10th frame of the last game of league from a last place team.
Think of it this way..... If you had the ability to shoot 650 and because of continuous bad ball changes only shoot 550. That equates to a 1-pin drop in average...... every night it happens. Over the course of 36 weeks that is an average about 36 pins less than the bowler's ability. Just saying.
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You're not a bad teammate. As you stated your team was not in any kind of contention, so if you wish to do what you did that's your call.
Now if you had a good look in competition where it mattered, then that's another story.
Same thought here. ::)
Gonna disagree here a bit.
Just because you can’t win the league doesn’t mean you should quit trying either. That sucks for the rest of the team, some of whom seem to want to compete anyway week in, week out.
It’s one thing if it were to happen once in a while. But if it’s happening every time he shoots a good game, then there’s a problem. It would bother me if he were my teammate. OP even says if his team were in it still, he’d bowl differently.
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I have a tendency to want to put a ball away after I've had a really good game with it, and my friend (and teammate) says that's selfish if I do it in league.
I can see his point if the team is still in contention for the playoffs and if the game was a 230 or better or with a really strong finish. To put the scores in perspective, I'm only averaging 172 in this league, but 180+ in my other two leagues, and even with those averages, used to get my fair share of 220 or better games. But not so much this year.
And my team was out of contention weeks ago and we're only bowling for points, but still... I bowled a 215 the first game and then decided to switch to a different ball. I had my reasons and again... the 215 was a solid, reasonable game for me ... and clean too. But it wasn't like I was on fire at any point. And I really thought the ball I switched to would work better or at least as good.
It was a colossal mistake with a bad result, and my friend remembers that earlier in the month I had bowled a 255 in the 2nd game and then put that ball away for the 3rd, with similar results. And even that time, I felt that even though I was throwing a phenomenal shot, I was really laboring to get the ball far enough down the lane to maintain the shot, and decided to switch balls before I started missing my mark if I didn't keep the speed up. He accused me of wanting to put the first ball away so I could put it (figuratively speaking) in a trophy case. He was not 100% wrong, but he was not 100% right either.
Unfortunately that perception is there now. I'm not clairvoyant, so am I not allowed to guess which ball I THINK will be best in the next game....even if it's not the one I just bowled great with?
Granted... if we were in the playoffs or in contention, I would be much more conservative and not want to change ANYTHING. Even what I had for dinner or what street I drove on, etc... and, of course, the ball. But we are NOT in contention, and 215 was decent ---especially for me in that particular house---- but it was not phenominal and off the charts, so I don't agree with my friend's view.
Am I a jerk?
Not a jerk. Just sounds like you don't know what you are doing. Especially if when changing bowling balls "just cause" typically leads to bad scores. No matter the teams position there's likely a difference in payout for whatever spot you can move up or down. Use practice to learn your equipment.
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You're not a bad teammate. As you stated your team was not in any kind of contention, so if you wish to do what you did that's your call.
Now if you had a good look in competition where it mattered, then that's another story.
Same thought here. ::)
Gonna disagree here a bit.
Just because you can’t win the league doesn’t mean you should quit trying either. That sucks for the rest of the team, some of whom seem to want to compete anyway week in, week out.
It’s one thing if it were to happen once in a while. But if it’s happening every time he shoots a good game, then there’s a problem. It would bother me if he were my teammate. OP even says if his team were in it still, he’d bowl differently.
QUIT? Hmmm. :o
What else should you call it if someone is going to change balls solely because they just shot a good game with it? On more than one occasion. When they admit if they were still in contention, they’d have stuck with the ball.
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Since we bowl on "invisible" oil, unlike the really good ones who use the blue crap, (don't get me started) sometimes a bowler starts seeing differences in carry and wants to try something else. The last ball of game one is a good idea as a test, but not always do you get a clear picture after one ball. It's definitely a start, though.
Teammates need to be able to trust one another in case one needs help with another set of eyes to maximize scoring for all. Five guys bowling separately are only a team because their scores are added together, unless they act like a team and work together. I'm not trying to say one side here is right or wrong. All I'm saying is teamwork and lane play after game one (the easy one) is often overlooked when building a team.
A few nights ago I warmed up fine (seemingly had a playable look) until the set started. First ball strike. Second through the ninth frame was a disaster, washouts and splits and missed opportunities, and then finished with a strike for bookends, but my score was the lowest I can remember in over 25 years of league play.
Teammates were dumbfounded, I'm sure, but so was I. Not one of them said a negative word to me. Only support. They felt like I'd figure it out. (Remember, this is second shift and sometimes you follow a team that used polyester and urethane and tossed it all over the place, so usually it gets kinda weird.) Game two I made a ball change, and more importantly a footwork change that fixed late timing and shot 256 for a nice recovery. The ball change had little to zero effect on my good game. It was the mechanical issue with my footwork.
My point here is my teammates could have second-guessed everything I was doing, thus making it worse, but didn't.
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Was the team you were bowling against in contention? -- JohnP
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Thank you for ALL of the responses. Helps me put things in perspective as I respect my friend’s opinion, but I am a “feel†bowler. When the ball feels right (and I’m talking about the reaction and more, not just the drilling), I get into a groove and can get really hot and go off the sheet.
And sometimes if I’m bowling a clean or almost clean game with mostly spares I feel like I’m close to busting loose for a sting of strikes. Other times it just doesn’t seem like I’m on my groove... even if the pins are falling and it LOOKS like I am.
And just because we’re out of contention does not mean that I would ever deliberately bowl poorly. But I did see it as a license to be more liberal in making ball changes for any reason —- as long as the ball being switched to is clearly inferior to the 1st ball, which it wasn’t. It proved to be the wrong choice, but it wasn’t done in a cavalier way.
The problem is that I admit to BEING selfish (or at least foolish) on other occasions. I just disagree with his presumption that any change was a bad change. And because I bowled bad, he’s making a blanket statement about my behavior.
He’s looking at it as me not caring st all about the potential impact on the team if it’s a bad ball change. I’m looking at it as a manager of a team eliminated from playoff contention and not overwhelmed with the performance of one player, who then decides to see what another player can do. But that player then stinks up the place, and now the manager is being accused of deliberately trying to lose the game.
It’s not a black and white issue to me, it my friend disagrees and sees no good reason that I changed. And I confess the 1st game was technically 40 pins over average, but I’m capable of more, and it was more like I was hanging on and [successfully] avoiding mistakes. I didn’t feel I was rolling that good despite the numbers.
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I remember when I first started bowling, I wanted to win games and points and I would of said the same that your friend said. I would of gave you a really hard time about it.
Today we bowl extra games after league and do our what if I would of used this ball, or that ball. Or if I saw you change balls after a 40+ game; I would stop you and tell you that ball is working fine, don't change balls right now.
For a Vegas league, I just bring 2 balls, so I won't have the temptation to change. Get one of them to the pocket and make it work.
Maybe you should just take one ball next time, or one with a spare ball to fix your bad habit and make good with your friend. Run it by him first so he doesn't ask why did only bring those two?
+1 especially on house shot. Nothing helped my average like only bringing my Hy-Road and spare ball to league.
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LOL. He won't ask me why I only brought two. :)
The thing is... I have no problem with my friend admonishing me or even what he is saying. And I admit to being selfish at times in the past, so it IS a bit of a wake up call. But I disagree with his logic that it's ALWAYS best to not change if you are being successful IN THE EYES OF YOUR TEAMMATES, even if you, yourself, are not pleased with the results. And I'm annoyed that I should have to sort of get the ok from my teammates (or one of them, at least) to change balls.
Most ironically, the occasion he chose as an example was not a good one, cause I really didn't see THAT much of a difference between the two balls I switched between. They were both older balls and not real weak or real strong. If anything, the 2nd ball was stronger, but it was also a 15 (the first ball was a 16). Point is... this was not a radical change like from a heavy oil monster to a plastic or spare ball. My gut was just telling me that I might have more success with ball #2. I was wrong and it exposed me to criticism....mainly from this one guy. He says he's speaking for all of them, but they're not exactly shrinking violets, so I'm not buying it. Not that they might not agree with him. But it's not like they asked him to talk to me or anything like that.
Anyway... I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I may have been guilty of exactly what my friend is saying in the past. I was mostly innocent this time. Is kind of like when you get a traffic ticket for an offense you HAVE committed many times and gotten away with it, but now you're getting a ticket and you truly believe you were innocent on this occasion, and it kind of bugs you. At least it does me.
:)
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Thing is, they only have the past to go off of. You admit you’ve done it in the past. To them or just him, this was just another instance of the same thing. And even about this time you say “mostly innocentâ€. You appear to be leaving yourself wiggle room.
Try it this way:
How many times have you shot a good/great game and then switched?
How many times did you follow it up with a decent/good game?
How many times did you follow it up with a bad one?
If you say it’s (almost) never worked, then you know you have a problem.
If it’s almost never failed, then he/they have the problem.
50/50 you’re all screwed lol. No one will be happy.
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If you are just throwing the dice on a ball change then I think you are only guilty poor strategy. You need to have a knowledge of what is happening with your current ball, and an expectation of what will happen with the next ball
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Thing is, they only have the past to go off of. You admit you’ve done it in the past. To them or just him, this was just another instance of the same thing. And even about this time you say “mostly innocentâ€. You appear to be leaving yourself wiggle room.
Try it this way:
How many times have you shot a good/great game and then switched?
How many times did you follow it up with a decent/good game?
How many times did you follow it up with a bad one?
If you say it’s (almost) never worked, then you know you have a problem.
If it’s almost never failed, then he/they have the problem.
50/50 you’re all screwed lol. No one will be happy.
+1. I not only have a problem with the "mostly innocent" but also the comments on wanting to "manage" the team. If you are managing bowling scores you are trying to keep an average in a range that you are happy with. If you "managed" to have your highest average ever it was more likely less managing and planning than just the fact that you managed to have fewer lower games and more high games than you did in the past.
Maybe it's time to find a new team. Your friend is obviously not happy with your decision making process and if he knew that you were just trying to manage the team he would likely be extremely upset.
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172 and you're a "feel" bowler. Maybe you should feel yourself making more good shots.
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172 and you're a "feel" bowler. Maybe you should feel yourself making more good shots.
Damn, that's funny! 😂
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I’ll plead no contest to a lot of the comments here.
The only qualifier or asterisk I’ll add is that sometimes... at least half the time... switching balls either pays off big, or has no impact. And also add that my friend is not even close to aware of how many times I changed and he didn’t notice —- probably cause the scores were good or better or no different.
Unfortunately when I changed after a 255, that put me on his radar big time. And Ironically that was partly legitimate. I was using a very aggressive ball (Rotogrip Idol) and was struggling to keep it on the right side of the head pin. Was still striking with it but honestly felt I was just a frame or two from having to go to a less aggressive ball in order to CONTINUE striking. But since we were starting a new game, figured I’d put it away BEFORE I missed and threw a bad ball.
I completely understand my friends perspective. But because if that high score and the bad result afterward, I’m on his watch list now anytime I make a change.
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The only qualifier or asterisk I’ll add is that sometimes... at least half the time... switching balls either pays off big, or has no impact.
I would suggest that if you actually kept track of how often the ball change helped/hurt/had no effect, this is very likely to be an incorrect statement.
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You may be correct, and I think that might be part of my frustration with my friend. He’s telling me this as the season has ended and there isn’t a whole lot I can do about changing (my actions, not the balls! 🙂) till next season.
But he had my attention at least.
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If your friend knows your game then that is different but only person that knows your game is you. If you use a ball and shoot a good game change ball perhaps that lane change or find a different line to strike. I myself done this a few times. You know that lane change from game to game. There is other way is that to make first ball less aggressive by changing your hand position. Don't get me wrong but other way to move your feet or hand position even change balls to find a better line. If you can mention what other ball you have even both of them or pics of them. Where you play on the lanes. I might help you on your bowling.
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Some might say you're managing your average to keep it lower than it should be. Probably not true but I've seen guys throw balls they know won't score well just to keep a lower average.
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If you only average 172 in a league and shoot a 215 game, and put the ball away after because you think the other one will work better, you are delusional. How many times has this strategy paid off? Judging by the fact your average is 172, I would say not many. You just bowled 40 pins OVER your average, and you think a ball change will make you bowl what 60 pins over? Think about it ..... your teammates are right.
You are worrying too much about things that don't matter. How many 470 series have you had this year? Stop with the equipment obsession, find a couple balls that WORK together, and bowl and enjoy. I know its fun to try different equipment, but you probably don't even know the real differences between your equipment or how to properly use them. Don't be the idiot with a 170 average dragging 6 balls to league blaming the fact that you don't have the right ball is why you average 170.
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I think I'd have to add that at an average of 170ish, increasing consistency needs to be your focus, and putting a ball away after a big game doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I understand if you're starting to be uncomfortable with the reaction, but that's when I'd just make some kind of small adjustment and keep going. I'm not sure I've ever finished even just an average game and decided to switch balls just for the heck of it. Now at the same time, your friend accusing you of being a bad teammate for having an average or below average game and blaming it on the ball change is a little odd, the ball change may or may not have had anything to do with it. The 170-190 average range is the place where you can put up big games if you get in the zone, but can also have rough games pretty easily too, so I'm not sure what he's getting so excited about.
Also, most leagues you're just bowling to bowl, anyone who gets overly excited about wins and losses in a handicap league confuses me too, there's usually not too big of a difference in payout between first and last no matter how big the league is.
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.....I'm not sure I've ever finished even just an average game and decided to switch balls just for the heck of it. Now at the same time, your friend accusing you of being a bad teammate for having an average or below average game and blaming it on the ball change is a little odd, the ball change may or may not have had anything to do with it. The 170-190 average range is the place where you can put up big games if you get in the zone, but can also have rough games pretty easily too....
Thank you. You did a great job of putting the whole thing in perspective.
On the one hand, my friend does mean well and IS being a good friend by pointing out to me how some of my teammates MIGHT feel when I make what at least appears to be a premature or bad ball change. I doubt my other teammates feel as strongly as he does, but I'm willing to acknowledge that on some level it might bug them. But thank you for also making my rebuttal to him. That every time I make a change that APPEARS to be illogical, it doesn't make me a bad teammate or even a bad bowler. Unless it's happening too frequently or at the worst possible times. And... there doesn't HAVE to be a direct cause and effect link between the ball change and following a good game with a bad one. But obviously, changing and then bowling badly easily calls the change into question.
I guess my argument to him is that it's not a black/white issue where changing is automatically good or bad. He's trying to say that my judgment has been poor, and I'm willing to weight things a little differently going forward, but still want him to know that I'm not going to choose my balls by committee or put it to a vote either.
As for the average. This has been a particularly horrible year and my average is down all my leagues and I'm normally around 190 in one league and 180 in another. The one I'm at 172 (or maybe 174 now?) is in a new house for me with heavier oil, and I just haven't figured it out enough yet. I.e. have been in a slump all year, and that has made me much less conservative as I'm constantly searching for the "magic" ball in my arsenal.
And 215 is not that magical when you consider yourself (or at least remember) being a 190+ bowler. Not claiming to be a 200 average bowler and 215 was a refreshing improvement over the last few outings. But I have bowled a few 220's and 230's in that league this year (and a couple of 240's and 250's in the other leagues), so if I wasn't that impressed with myself for that game.
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Luke and others have covered the actual bowling part of this as well as can be done. But let me offer one thought.
This is as much about perception as it is reality/truth of the situation. While I do not believe you necessarily need to explain yourself with all these ball changes to anyone; a lack of explaination to your teammate(s) has lead to thier perception that you are not giving every game your best effort.
I am not saying that you owe an explanation every time you change; but you may consider explaining to the team that when you change, it is because what you are seeing in your reaction, your educated guess was to make a change. I would do this exactly once; if at all. Given that you used the label of friend (rather teammate), I would do it.
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I’m not going to quote the OPs last reply But the statement about 215 being nothing stellar when you averaged 190 ..........dude that’s 25 pins over your average. Bowl three 215s every nite and now you average 215. It sounds to me like the reason you are down to 170 is because you are making stupid choices and you think you know something that’s not true. I already know what a 3 game set of yours looks like——
215-135-180 for a crowd pleasing 520 - welcome to averaging 170. If you shot 215 , never average more than 190, and you change balls after the 215, you are your own worst enemy.
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this is total sandbagging.
i'm sorry but if you only average what you say, and you shoot a good score, smart money would dictate you stick with whats working. and a shot just doesn't disappear, especially on a house shot.
this sounds like you throw a good game and then you want to see if you can do it with a different ball. but from the sounds of it, you often fail.
i could literally bring a two ball bag to my regular house shot leagues, and only would need the second ball if the lane man was feeling froggy.
and if you are switching because you think the shot is changing, then you can't read a lane for shit and if your being called a bad teammate, and not doing anything about the issue they've brought to you, then yes, you're a bad teammate.
so in closing, whether you're switching balls cuz your bored or because you think the lanes are changing when they're not and you're not taking the advice to not switch, then either way you're a bad teammate.
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As a "Hero Member" once posted; (Quote) Less is more especially with forum posts. (Unquote) Thinking it's probably "bedtime for bonzo" time for this thread. ::)
+1
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In summary, you're friend is 100% correct.
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A bad teammate is one that is always late or doesn't show up at all, doesn't have the money to pay for himself, is irritable, argumentative, and foul-mouthed. Changing bowling balls doesn't qualify. -- JohnP
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THE END!!!
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It’s not a black and white issue to me, it my friend disagrees and sees no good reason that I changed. And I confess the 1st game was technically 40 pins over average, but I’m capable of more, and it was more like I was hanging on and [successfully] avoiding mistakes. I didn’t feel I was rolling that good despite the numbers.
Help me understand. If you average in this league 172 and 180+ in another, as stated earlier, and you shot 40 pins over average, but are "capable of more than 40 pins over your average", so you switched balls, then how are you only averaging 172 if you aren't sandbagging it??
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It’s not a black and white issue to me, it my friend disagrees and sees no good reason that I changed. And I confess the 1st game was technically 40 pins over average, but I’m capable of more, and it was more like I was hanging on and [successfully] avoiding mistakes. I didn’t feel I was rolling that good despite the numbers.
Help me understand. If you average in this league 172 and 180+ in another, as stated earlier, and you shot 40 pins over average, but are "capable of more than 40 pins over your average", so you switched balls, then how are you only averaging 172 if you aren't sandbagging it??
Sucks at spare conversion...just a guess ;D
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Going to disclose one more morsel of information, and it might make me look even worse, but I’ll state it, and let the group here have the last word —even if it’s to say that I’m even worse than you thought. Here goes:
Recently had the drilling adjusted on two of of my balls, and on the night in question, was using one of them in the first game to be sure the drilling was comfortable. It was, and I bowled the 215 with it. Then I switched to the other ball that had the same new drilling, cause I wanted to be sure it was good too.
It felt good, and threw a strike in the first frame, but after a few frames my aim was deteriorating and I SHOULD have changed back to the first ball, but stubbornly did not because I truly thought I would ultimately do better with the all I was using.
Can see the decision to stay with ball #2 being viewed as a lot of bad things, but sandbagging? No. I just wanted to prove to myself right and my teammate (who actually predicted the bad result) wrong.
The change was a disaster. It was t some elaborate method of keeping my average down, and it wasn’t done in a spirit of telling my team to shove it. I really wanted to come through with a great game for the team. It was an obvious mistake—-but not at the time. —-at least not to me.
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Changing balls does not improve aim.
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Doesn't sound like you're smart enough to sandbag.
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Doesn't sound like you're smart enough to sandbag.
+10000000
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It sounds like things are to the point that finding a new team might be in everyone’s best interest.
You’re not going to enjoy yourself if you feel you can’t make the changes you want, when you want.
Your teammates aren’t going to be happy on those occasions when you make changes that don’t work. Especially if you won’t change back.
It’s a known commodity now. Is it really worth it to go into another season like that?
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I see your point, but I think my friend was just being especially blunt to make his point. I don't think my ball changes (or not) are at the top of his priority list or even his list of pet peeves. He disapproved and can see his perspective and am willing to keep it in mind going forward. I just felt he was being overly harsh and also didn't care for being pyscho-analyzed (by him) as not caring, etc.
And he's only one teammate. The others really don't care (and didn't that day).
But before I bowl another game on a team with him, I will have a discussion with him to be sure it's not a lingering issue---even if I intend to be more mindful of any changes as he wants me to.
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Perhaps you need a safe space. ::)
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#BOWLINGALLEYDRAMA. Just quit and go to a new league and if it happens again, then there is only on common denominator... ;) ;)
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I've been in the same league for 20+ years. If I leave it won't be over something silly like someone not approving of my ball management choices.
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So this entire thing was just to vent?
Yea, you definitely need a safe place.
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No, not to vent. Was interested in consensus view of persons not directly involved and wanted to see where the disconnect was. Most of you sided with my friend and explained his position very well. A few of you could see my perspective (that the criticism was a bit over zealous).
In short... I don't think I deserved the admonishment by my friend with quite the severity with which it was given (especially at the end of the season, when I can't make changes). But HAVE been enlightened as to the potential for disaster if I make a change when I appear to be bowling well and the scores plummet.
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Hey first time commenting, great to he here. My take on this is that unless advice is asked for, learning about ball motion and recognizing how the ball exits the deck, both on pocket hits that strike, or not, is all important. Knowing why you're making a ball change is imperative. It's my belief that feet and eye target moves should be tried, if not exhausted before ball changes. The only thing that promotes early ball changes is noticeable over/under cliffing. 172 average bowlers are "finer tuning" away from 195 and beyond. Keeping speed up, or slowing down, different releases, foot work to allow for speed increases without muscling your downswing..it's all a part of the game. Ball changes are just another tool. I have bowler after bowler ask me why I need more than one ball..omg
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I would say if you continue to bowl with this team you should only bring two balls...a spare ball and the best strike ball (solid, hybrid or pearl) that you feel gives you the best chance to score. Make your spares and shoot in the 190-205 range. Everyone will be happy.
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Recently had the drilling adjusted on two of of my balls, and on the night in question, was using one of them in the first game to be sure the drilling was comfortable. It was, and I bowled the 215 with it. Then I switched to the other ball that had the same new drilling, cause I wanted to be sure it was good too.
It felt good, and threw a strike in the first frame, but after a few frames my aim was deteriorating and I SHOULD have changed back to the first ball, but stubbornly did not because I truly thought I would ultimately do better with the all I was using.
Practice is the time to "experiment" with different spans and pitches. Based on your post, it doesn't seem like you "practiced" at all with the change, and that would be frustrating to a teammate, who sees you putting balls away after 40 pins above your average. If you want to experiment during league play, bowl a singles league. Team means team, which means you put your best foot forward for the team.
It isn't about "looking bad", it's about being selfish, and you're wanting to prove your teammates wrong, is selfish, and not a team player, like it or not. Giving %100 every shot no matter the results (120 or 220), is a team player. Knowing you haven't practiced with a ball at all, and continue with it after bad results, is selfish.
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If the team had still been in contention for first place ----even mathematically, no matter how bad the odds---- this post would never have happened.
No argument here about how foolish/selfish it would be to switch balls for the wrong reason in a game that still counted. But my team was mathematically eliminated at least 2 weeks before this, so I viewed it as an opportunity to be more liberal with changes than when it DID still matter.
Now before everyone goes all flaming on me. I do recognize that not everyone agrees that once 1st place is impossible that it doesn't matter, but I'm sorry. That's how I feel, or should I say... have always felt. After the "discussion" with my friend/teammate this year, it's apparent that HE did NOT feel that way. And now that I have been enlightened, I will be more considerate of that view.
But this is the first time in over 20 years that not even one of my 3 teams has been mathematically still in it until the last or even the next to last week of the season. Yes.. this is the first time in at least 20 years that none of my teams made it to the playoffs. Not looking for sympathy. Just explaining that until this year I had never BEEN in a situation where I felt that none of my games mattered anymore.
I've been very fortunate, especially considering that many of the teams that I made it to the playoffs with weren't exactly rolling over people like a juggernaut. But win we did, and this year had felt like early spring training for next season for a long time before the night in question.
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If the team had still been in contention for first place ----even mathematically, no matter how bad the odds---- this post would never have happened.
No argument here about how foolish/selfish it would be to switch balls for the wrong reason in a game that still counted. But my team was mathematically eliminated at least 2 weeks before this, so I viewed it as an opportunity to be more liberal with changes than when it DID still matter.
Now before everyone goes all flaming on me. I do recognize that not everyone agrees that once 1st place is impossible that it doesn't matter, but I'm sorry. That's how I feel, or should I say... have always felt. After the "discussion" with my friend/teammate this year, it's apparent that HE did NOT feel that way. And now that I have been enlightened, I will be more considerate of that view.
But this is the first time in over 20 years that not even one of my 3 teams has been mathematically still in it until the last or even the next to last week of the season. Yes.. this is the first time in at least 20 years that none of my teams made it to the playoffs. Not looking for sympathy. Just explaining that until this year I had never BEEN in a situation where I felt that none of my games mattered anymore.
I've been very fortunate, especially considering that many of the teams that I made it to the playoffs with weren't exactly rolling over people like a juggernaut. But win we did, and this year had felt like early spring training for next season for a long time before the night in question.
I don't think anyone has, or is calling you a bad person, and not trying to bash. Just trying to show you the other side of the coin.
Try to look at it like this.
People think it's no big deal to take a few pens or paper clips home without asking permission, from their work. But if you take a printer, it's considered stealing. Guess what, BOTH are stealing, because that person is not authorized to remove those items from the office. A handful of pens and paper clips add up over time.
Same thing with bowling, it doesn't matter if you are flat out throwing a gutter ball in the middle of the season because you are already in first place, and have a point won, OR, if you have no shot at anything at the end of the season and you continue to experiment even though it's going really really bad (your words). It's still not giving it 100%, which IS a form of sandbagging. All leagues I have ever been associated with, exception being no cap scratch, use the last years averages for the start of the new year to determine average caps and handicap going forward. It ALL counts.
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The only thing I will say in rebuttal (no argument on the rest) is about the sandbagging. Because I didn’t switch balls in order to bowl a lower score. I really thought I would bowl a higher score because of the switch.
Of course it didn’t turn out that way. Was not sandbagging though.
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Since more times than not you admit to throwing a lower score, I would call it sandbagging.
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You had no real or logical reason to switch balls. That's the bottom line. Changing balls because you thought something was going to change is ridiculous. You stay with the ball you just shot 40 pins over your average with until you saw change. Then at least for a frame you make an adjustment. If that doesn't work you change. Guys that only average in the low 170s don't switch balls after bowling 40 over. I have bowled for 47 years and have never seen a bowler with that average do such a thing. If you don't bowl over your average after you switch why would any teammate be happy with you? Any bowler in your league would be reasonable thinking you were sandbagging after seeing you do this more than once, even if you were innocent.
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Acknowledged earlier in this post that I wasn’t aware that my personal decision to change balls could be viewed with that perspective, so I see your point. Never occurred to me that it could be seen as deliberately trying to lower my average, and do plan to adjust myself going forward.
But hypothetically speaking, after bowling 90 games in the league, what would someone gain by deliberately bowling bad? Average won’t move hardy at all, so what would be the motivation (to sandbag in that situation)?
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Okay, we give up. What is your motivation for it?
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Neptune66,
"Hypothetically speaking"; Actually, in reality, the point where you said "I wouldn't have stayed with the ball, if we weren't out of contention for first", was when it became sandbagging.
It isn't "stealing a copier", but it is "taking paper clips and pens".
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Acknowledged earlier in this post that I wasn’t aware that my personal decision to change balls could be viewed with that perspective, so I see your point. Never occurred to me that it could be seen as deliberately trying to lower my average, and do plan to adjust myself going forward.
But hypothetically speaking, after bowling 90 games in the league, what would someone gain by deliberately bowling bad? Average won’t move hardy at all, so what would be the motivation (to sandbag in that situation)?
It could be for any number of reasons. Pin here, pin there and you could be rerated to a lower division for tournaments. Jackpots. Anything where your average is used is open game for interpretation.
A lot bowlers aren’t going to know or care really as to why you or might not be doing it. All they’re gonna see is you tanking after throwing a good game.
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Tommy,
Am I allowed to say that I was sandbagging when I didn't win a point against Dan for about three years straight? I would feel much better if I could use that as an excuse for getting my butt kicked.
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I give up (after this).
Was willing to concede that ball changing under certain circumstances can give the appearance of impropriety and sometimes the appearance of it can be as bad as if it were real. AND I realize that there many members of this group that consistently bowl at a much higher level and regularly compete in tournaments. And I won't compare myself to you in terms of skill level and knowledge of the game. You are all light years ahead of me.
I don't regularly bowl in tournaments (it's been at least two years since my last) and my Men's leagues are competitive and everyone (including me!) is serious about winning all the time.
But you all have a really bad blind spot about this sandbagging thing, cause I am NOT at your level and based on some of your own comments I am not good enough to deliberately bowl bad, even if that was my intention. So for you to accuse me of having some complex diabolical plan to deliberately shave a few hundreths of a percentage off of my average is utterly absurd.
In short:
1) My friend was right. I was being a bad teammate (unknowingly), but now I know that and will modify my behavior accordingly.
2) Some of you are so off the wall with your sandbagging comments, that I feel much better about what he said to me (i.e. am no longer annoyed or irritated about what he said to me. I really DO understand now what he was trying to communicate.
3) You all helped me in various ways, and I give you all full credit for enlightening me about my original post. But you also need to keep things in context. Knowing what you did about my average, my motivation, and the circumstances SHOULD have tempered some of your comments on sandbagging.
You all have the floor. I promise I won't reply anymore to this thread no matter what, so whomever does will have the last word.
Thanks for the enlightenment. No thanks for the ridiculous accusations of sandbagging.
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For the 2nd time.....THE END!!!
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Listen Neptune, I knew a guy who averaged between 165-172 in every league he bowled in every year. And every year he would bowl as many 9 pin tournaments he could and he won a bundle. This guy when the lights came on couldn't miss the pocket. You averaging 172 doesn't mean squat. That's where many sandbaggers live. I can remember in 1986 i averaged at the top of division three in the WI state tournament with an average of about 180. I was leading in singles going into the final weekend. I ended up third and was beaten by by two guys, one who averaged 169 and one who averaged 171. Both shot over 720 scratch. There aren't a lot of guys averaging in that range, bowling on a state tournament condition shooting those type of scores. Guys of all averages manipulate their scores. Because you say you aren't doing that, I believe you, but you have no logical excuse for changing balls after shooting 40 over. That you can't explain that away!!
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I know I said "The End" twice to this thread. But, I have to comment on the last post by TDC57.
Your still smarting from a tournament you bowled in 33 years ago. Get a life already.
Now for the 3rd and final time from me.....The End!
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I know you said the end twice to this thread Bowlaholic, but then again who the hell are you? Oh, I know, a moron who is so dim he can't understand an example used when making a point. I'm not still smarting, I was just showing how low average bowlers are capable of being baggers. But again, you are so stupid it went right over your flat head!
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Okay, the two of you, back in your corners until the start of the match.
Only one bowler on the approach at a time. No grabbing the opponent's shirt or belt as he starts his approach, no dropping a bowling ball on the floor, or crinkling of a water bottle. The bowlers' towels are their own, hands off if it doesn't belong to you!
And as you leave the approach, please don't leave any flatulence behind for your worthy opponent (I've bowled in too many senior leagues). At the end of the match, please shake hands, it's only a game/sport. :)
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The reason I posted "The End" which by the way I was not the only one who thought this, was because 6 pages of around and around we go, where we stop no one knows?
Am I a bad teammate....no your not....yes, your are....a sandbagger.....no.....yes....I was not trying to be....does not matter....you changed balls....but it's my right....no not if..... maybe I am bad...... well not really....but i must be.....you are.....but, I know I'm not .....sure appears you are.....not intentional......yeah, right you sandbagger and on an on we go!
And we end with name calling (moron, stupid, flathead) to make a point. Wow!
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Because some of us are trying to point out that if you repeatedly put the ball away after throwing a good game, it may look like it to OTHERS on his team and the league that you’re sandbagging.
The OP says it wasn’t a one off type situation. He has a tendency to do it.
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I think your teammate may be fed up since you've been doing this seemingly the whole season. You may have cost your team some wins in the past? Perhaps he's wanted to say something for a while and finally spoke up.
Most likely if you want to actually improve your average it will come from consistency and using (most of the time) only one ball for a house shot. If you're using a slew of different balls and claim to be a rhythm player I don't see how changing the ball fairly consistently when you actually get into a rhythm would be helpful.
Yesterday I bowled 10 games and I used one ball the entire time. I averaged 205 between those 10, now that was just practice since my league hasn't started and I'm just getting back into it, but I say this because if at least for me I changed my ball multiple times my scores would go down. For me I prefer to make an adjustment to speed or location before I start changing my ball.
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Bowlaholic,
You know one thing about living in this country, we can choose to do what we want. Many of us choose to try and help Neptune understand what he is doing isn't logical and could be construed as manipulating his average and could upset teammates who are trying to win. The time to try such things is during practice. League is when you put what you practiced into play. Not the other way around. You chose to tell everyone what was going to be and it's funny, for some reason you made it personal with me and when you got it back in spades, you didn't appreciate it, the same way i didn't. Remember that this freedom also allows you not to comment on a thread. Why click on something you're tired of? Until you're a moderator on this site, i think you telling us how it's going to be is unnecessary!
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Thinking this whole thread has turned "stupid", if you will, and the OP is baiting each and everyone of us to see how long this thread will go on. Tired of it, but others don't appear to be (tired) and keep jumping in with their comments. I'd love to see said thread put to bed, but others seem to enjoying the OPs attempt @ keeping it alive, :o >:( ???
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Nobody is forcing you to click on the thread and then comment. If you're tired of it move on. Maybe everyone else would too if guys like you would quit telling people to stop commenting. Have you ever thought of that or do you just enjoying passing your judgement as gospel?
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Nobody is forcing you to click on the thread and then comment. If you're tired of it move on. Maybe everyone else would too if guys like you would quit telling people to stop commenting. Have you ever thought of that or do you just enjoying passing your judgement as gospel?
I'm so glad you enjoy such BS as it's quite plain to see that you must think you're the honcho master of all here and believe others must bow down to your lowest point and kiss all that is available there, but again, you'd be wrong. Go out and find yourself a big one to bite young man. Guys like me. You haven't any idea about guys like me or other here want or are thinking other than what resides in your addled brain. Moderator, please remove if found to be offensive and do the same with my membership @ the same time. Thanks.
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So you call me the "honchomaster" whatever that means. I'm the bad guy for saying let people do what they want. You know freedom. You want things shut down, because you don't like it. I guess you're just like the left in this country shutting down any viewpoint they don't like. I'm fine with people expressing their views. You were colorful though, so I guess I'll give you credit for that! I wish I was a young man but sadly I'm not. I've been on this site since it's inception and have seen many who want to control what people say or think but they usually flame out, as you invariably will!!!
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TDC57,
You opened the political door with stating "I guess you're just like the left in this country shutting down any viewpoint they do not like".
Meaning your from the right ........ "an angry old dude with a foul mouth", who name calls (moron, stupid, flathead) or do you deny you used those words to make your point. Much like the most famous person who currently represents the right in this country.
Bet it makes you feel good and how proud you are of yourself.
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WOWW!!!
What a thread!
And 6 pages of this back and forth! It reminds me of the old days when we had the Miscellaneous Forum and we would get into political debates!!
Good stuff gentlemen! Carry on!
That is all. LOL!
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Bowlaholic,
I'm just proud I'm not trying to stop anyone from posting, good or bad unlike you and jimjames. I just don't get how it's such a problem for you two not to click on the thread. What drives you to do it? I come to BallReviews look at all the posts and most of the time don't check the majority of them out because they don't interest me, I don't try to shut discussion down because I don't care for them. You two on the other hand feel the need to be Big Brother and infringe on our right to post. Do you deny that you made this personal with me before I had ever commented on anything you had said???
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I agree 100% !
Said I wasn’t going to say anything further in this thread, and except for this thumbs up for Bowlaholic’s comments, I am sticking to that.
But have to add that when some other posters here were dictating and ordering everyone to stop posting to this thread, my first inclination was to do just the opposite out of spite.
Decided against that, but still followed the thread casually and was truly amazed at the small-mindedness of some people.
As Bowlaholic has already said... if you don’t like this thread, just ignore it.
Unbelievable !!!!
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I think I was the one who said that Neptune.
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I'm stunned that this post is still going, BUT I do remember another seemingly never ending post that somehow ended too, so maybe this is the new one??
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Amen