BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on April 23, 2014, 02:35:43 PM
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So we got paid out last night in our mostly high average competitive scratch league. 14 teams, 3 member, 20 dollar a night, only 7.50 out of that is lineage. We have a nightly 3 game Eliminator, we also have random match play and a match play standings list. Teams get paid by position and individuals for match play position per third, and for overall Eliminator take. My team was in 2nd the entire year, it's a 30 point per night system, and overall we took 703 points on the year out of a possible 990. In years past, teams got paid for total points, but apparently that's not how it works anymore. Out of 42 people, I finished 4th, 9th and 4th in the match play standings, did well in the Eliminator, split the hi 10 hi 30 pot, got 2nd place hi 10 for team, had the 4th high average in the league, and I got a grand total of 525 bucks back (total league fees for the year was 660) . .
Now to put this in perspective, the team that was in first the entire year, took nearly 800 points on the year, I made more than 2 of them. The top guy on their team who reset our house average record at 240 didn't even break even on the year. The difference between being in 1st and 14th? 30 per person per third. The difference between being 1st and 42nd in the match play standings? 31 per third.
To put this in more perspective, I had a bad year last year. Not terrible, but it wasn't good at all. Our team finished 8th out of 11 teams, did ok in the Eliminator, finished around the 20 spot in the match play standings every third, and I took home 450.
More perspective. My wife ended up bowling on a team at the last minute because they needed somebody. Their team finished dead last every third, took only 180 points on the year, she made exactly 20 bucks on the eliminator for the year, and finished either last or next to last in the match play standings every third and her envelope contained 250.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm happy she got a decent chunk of change back . . and I got more out of the prize fund than I paid into it, but not by much. Matter of fact, overall I had the 4th highest payday in the league, but the 2 directly ahead of me were only ahead of me by a few bucks apiece.
This seems to me to be absolutely ridiculous. If you're in a handicap league, cool, spread the wealth, it's supposed to be just for fun. But when you're in a high average competitive scratch league with a dress code and 2 lane courtesy written into the league rules, fines for unbecoming or unsportsmanlike conduct or not meeting the dress code, and very strict sub and absentee rules, how does this all add up to a spread the wealth payout? Where's the incentive to bowl well? I put in way too much effort and lost way too much sleep just to lose 150 bucks on the year. Because of this, instead of my team returning next year, both my teammates changed their minds, because they only got back about 425 apiece. One works an hour drive away, and the other works from 5am-9pm 4 days out of the week. The league starts at 9pm and is usually over around 1130pm. We put the team together with the expectation of winning money or at least breaking even.
The tournament I bowled Sunday? 43 entrants, 75 dollar entry fee. Got second, walked out with 470, that's tournament payout alone, didn't include any side action. This league? 42 bowlers, 660 dollar "entry" over 9 MONTHS, 525. What am I missing here? Yes I realize tournaments are different, but come on . .
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I guess that's just how some leagues work. It sounds like the prize structure was similar last year? If it was, there isn't too much to complain about - you knew this was coming.
I would be pissed too, but again, same as last year.
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As far as I know, I've never seen a prize structure list. What I was really thinking was that if I had an average year last year and still made 450 in an 11 team league, what would a good year in a 14 team league pay out?
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Gizmo,
League payouts should be voted on. How did you not know this well before getting to this point? If you weren't informed, I have more of an issue with the way the league is run than over the payout. I would talk to the league President and try to set-up a meeting for league night a few weeks prior to the season starting next year. Disucss the prize fund and get people to volunteer to put together a new prize fund. Ask your teammates to give it one more year, and see if the league will vote in a prize fund with more going to the top. If the rest of the league feels as you and your teammates do, it should pass easily.
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Gizmo,
I am new to some of this so forgive me if I'm out of bounds but if the prize structure was important to me I believe I would have red the rules before joining the league. I do agree a more top heavy format would make sense in this type of league but you should be responsible for making sure it was what you were looking for before getting involved. You obviously paid attention to the other portions of the league code how did you over look this? Did you miss a league meeting at the beginning of the season where these rules were changed?
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Team captains vote on prize funds after a prize committee puts together some choices. You should have known the prize fund a month into the league.
How much do you really expect to get out of a 14 team trio league?
You can't compare league and tournaments. At tournaments 3/4 of the field gets $0. Not many people will bowl a league with 3/4 of the field not getting paid. That is not the type of person that make up the bulk of leagues.
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Normally the team that wins a league gets more than what they paid to bowl in the league but not by much. The second place team would get about 50 to 100 off when they paid to bowl. The rest is smaller increments. That's what I've seen and been part of.
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If you are expecting to make your total lineage back in a league with no extra sponsor money it is going to be tough.
Even in your case 37.5% went for lineage. If you spread the wealth some so the bottom teams don't get PO'd and quit it is tough to come up with enough money to make up that 37.5% hit. And if you don't have the donators you'll never come close to get your money back.
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I've bowled the league for several years, but have never been a team captain, have never seen a prize structure list, and have never been on a good team with any chance of getting much money back, so I've never really paid much attention to it honestly, but I've always seen the top teams and top bowlers getting back 650-750 dollars apiece back at the end of the year with just 10 or 11 teams. If they did vote on the prize structure or have information out about it, I wasn't there that week, I did have to miss a couple weeks this year due to work.
Team captains vote on prize funds after a prize committee puts together some choices. You should have known the prize fund a month into the league.
How much do you really expect to get out of a 14 team trio league?
You can't compare league and tournaments. At tournaments 3/4 of the field gets $0. Not many people will bowl a league with 3/4 of the field not getting paid. That is not the type of person that make up the bulk of leagues.
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We have a handful of sponsors contributing a total of a few thousand extra dollars . .
If you are expecting to make your total lineage back in a league with no extra sponsor money it is going to be tough.
Even in your case 37.5% went for lineage. If you spread the wealth some so the bottom teams don't get PO'd and quit it is tough to come up with enough money to make up that 37.5% hit. And if you don't have the donators you'll never come close to get your money back.
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The mysterious prize fund. Trust me! You want that knowledge at the beginning of the year and not at the end.
I am going to take a guess and state that league probably never had prize committee, and the prize money is left up to the secretary/treasurer to handle at the end of the year. When its done at the end of the year, people get upset.
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Yeah, that's pretty much the way it went down . . like I said, after seeing nice payouts for several of the top bowlers for several years, I felt pretty good about being on a good team this year AND bowling well individually ESPECIALLY because 14 teams is the biggest the league has ever been. I wasn't looking to walk out of there with 1000 bucks or anything, I just figured I'd break even or at least be close.
The mysterious prize fund. Trust me! You want that knowledge at the beginning of the year and not at the end.
I am going to take a guess and state that league probably never had prize committee, and the prize money is left up to the secretary/treasurer to handle at the end of the year. When its done at the end of the year, people get upset.
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Welcome to the era where everybody gets paid.
I despise it, but it is what it is.
I remember bowling in league where all the prize money went to the top 4-5 teams and individual prizes. Heck, in 1988, I pulled down $750 in one league (1st place, high scratch series) and that was with $5 going to the prize fund.
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I just wished I could pay $7.50 for lineage. Would love to see the return on our scratch league. Will be pushing over $12.00 for lineage.
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Giz,
I hate to say it, but this seems like a case of "you get what you deserve". If you didn't care about the prize fund, and ask about it earlier, then.....
I understand your feelings and what you thought was right. But if it wasn't mentioned by your teammates that they saw and voted on a prize fund while you were away, you should have asked about it. When I was team captain, the prize fund vote was never just my decision. I always talked with my teammates and we got a concensus as to which one we voted for. Sometimes my pick won, sometimes it didn't.....we went with majority rules. So you should have been involved even if you weren't captain.
Like I said in my prior post, nothing you can do about it now, so look forward to next year. The President and/or lanes should be able to get in touch with all team captains, set-up a meeting for a week or two prior to league starting and discuss the prize fund isses (as well as all of the rules). This way it's out of the way early and people can decide if they want to bowl or not, and if not it leaves time to find replacements. Get the league to agree that prize funds will be created and given to the Secretary by week x (we ususally used week 3). Then the league will vote on it the next week. Majority rules. If needed, you revote the next week to break any ties (just between the tied versions). So you could volunteer to put together a top heavy prize fund and see if it passes.
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Back in 1995 paid 720.00 for the year won 2,000.00 dollars for first place even the last place team won 250.00 per person but was still eligible to win 1,500.00 (300.00 per team member) in the sweeper the top two teams could not compete every team from third on down all cashed in the sweeper.
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Unfortunately what are the league rules and breakdown? The league had to vote on the prize fund...this everyone should've of known...no?
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Here we have what I considered to be the best scratch league in town.
3 person teams, 4 games. Peterson points.
They started to guarantee $3000 for the first place team. They get some sponsor money, I'm not sure what the fee is, I believe in the mid 20's.
The first year I believe they had around 32 teams, the next about 28, 2012-2013 they had 24 teams, this year they had 12 teams.
In the past (my experience late 1970's thru the mid 1990's) you would find bowlers willing to participate in the league knowing they were going to get killed and be donators. But were willing to pay to learn and watch.
Some come in with their shiny new 210-220 averages and find out they are now small fish in the pond getting eaten.
Somewhere along the line they have all pretty much decided that they want most of the money they pay in back at the end of the year.
Without a pile of sponsor money it is impossible to do this and put a bunch of money on top.
But if you end up with 6 to 8 teams you can't get any sponsor money and if you give the top team their money back there is nothing for other teams.
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Unfortunately what are the league rules and breakdown? The league had to vote on the prize fund...this everyone should've of known...no?
+1
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That's the thing, I don't think anyone ever saw a prize fund or voted on it, the other teams at the top were just as surprised as I was. And again, in years past, the top teams had walked away with quite a bit of money, or at least broke even or came out ahead on the year. I can't remember ever seeing or voting on a prize structure for this league any time in the past. Never happened this year, and while the league has never been super top heavy, it's always seemed fair or reasonable. The bottom dwellers made more this year than they thought they would, and the top teams didn't. This year was inconsistent with the past and recent past. Based on history, there was no reason to worry or be concerned about the prize structure. After seeing what happened this year, that's going to be my first order of business next year if I even want to bowl or can find another team.
Again, I don't believe a prize structure was ever passed out or voted on. Could be the same every year and something that was established or voted on in the past and just carries over from year to year. Everytime I see a prize structure list or get to vote on it, I ALWAYS vote for it to be more top heavy whether I'm going to be in the top or not, because I think that's the way it should be, and the first place team would have done the same. But again, based on history, I had no reason to be concerned. More teams, more money, and if the top teams were already getting a decent amount in the past, I figured we would get a couple hundred apiece more, not a couple hundred apiece less.
Unfortunately what are the league rules and breakdown? The league had to vote on the prize fund...this everyone should've of known...no?
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$12.50 goes into the prize fund for each bowler (based on 33 weeks) for a total of $412.50 each player. Minus our of that any secretary/treasurer fees (generally $0.50 per bowler per week) which brings your total PRIZE fund contribution to $396.00.
Considering you didn't WIN the league or WIN any of the "side action" I'd say you didn't do all that bad and actually did make ALL of your prize money back plus some. Most bowlers don't take in to account the lineage fees when talking about how much they get back.
But as it has been stated you should have seen a prize list at some point. Our league (which i'm the sec/treas for) has a 3 man commitee and each of those people submmit a prize list. It was out by week 4 and voted on by the league. We have 15 teams of 5 and our break down is as follows:
$25 per week per bowler ($100 team sponsor fee goes into prize fund)
$13 lineage
$1 banquet fee
$0.25 sec/treas fee
$1 50/50 kitty (half goes to bowler with the winning ticket half goes to prize fund)
$9.75 prize fund
We're going to pay $1000 per man for 1st place and last place still gets around $150 per man. We don't have alot of money for Individual awards (maybe $200 for everything)
Most inportant thing is the BOWLERS voted on our prize list and it was known well in advance. I also put out a full financial statement at our banquet just in case there's any questions regarding where the money went
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Yeah I did get back more prize fund than I put into it, so I understand where you're coming from. But the top team in an 11 team league all nearly paid for their bowling, lineage included last year. The top team this year in a 14 team league bowled better and made less. Something isn't adding up. I sent the secretary an email, we'll see what I get back.
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It adds up. Top got less, bottom got more.
If the $100 is going to make a difference in your life I'll send you $100. The future of the league is better off with a more balanced payout.
Simple as that.
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It adds up. Top got less, bottom got more.
If the $100 is going to make a difference in your life I'll send you $100. The future of the league is better off with a more balanced payout.
Simple as that.
Harsh, but true. No one is getting rich off bowling league. Im having a hard time seeing what your beef is. Its like taking a job but not knowing how much you'll be paid and then complain when you get your check. When money is involved ALWAYS get the particulars upfront.
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I usually do a prize fund in my leagues every year. They always know they can count on me to submit a reasonable prize fund, that is equitable to most in the league.
However, in my most competitive league this year, I purposely submitted a funky, middle/bottom loaded prize fund.....knowing full well, that with all the highly competitive bowlers in our league....it would never get voted in.
And I was right! The top-heavy prize fund won the most votes, but someone never checked the math. It was wrong, and so rather than have it re-submitted with corrections, they just threw it out, and defaulted to the second choice, also a top-heavy proposal. Problem was.....this proposal did not have the right number of teams, so they threw that one out....and defaulted to mine.
Now everyone is grumbling!!! But wasn't my fault. The Prez didn't handle the selection right. Anyway....there's a bunch of 150 averaged bowlers very happy right now, and our league will be packed once again next year! LOL!
Go figure!
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Yeah I did get back more prize fund than I put into it, so I understand where you're coming from. But the top team in an 11 team league all nearly paid for their bowling, lineage included last year. The top team this year in a 14 team league bowled better and made less. Something isn't adding up. I sent the secretary an email, we'll see what I get back.
Even when adding more teams, whoever finishes on the bottom needs prize money, so a very small percentage hypothetically would get added to the rest of the league. Without having a prize fund report, it could be that last year was a little more top heavy and this year it's more spread out.
I'm fortunate that this year my leagues paid for themselves plus some. One league will pay $1000 ($875 total paid into it) plus my sec/treas fee of $650 ($0.25 per bowler per week) and my other league will pay around $800 (depending on where we finish on the roll-off as we do quarters) But again this isn't life changing money, it's more about having fun with the boys and winning as a TEAM. I'd rather win than make $100 bucks at the end of the year. Call me crazy but that's what league bowling is supposed to be about.
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It's just the principle of it, but I asked for perspective and you gave it to me.
And the future of the league isn't really better off . . I lost my team and there are a couple others considering not going back now because there's not really a reason to. You could show up and put a lot of effort into trying to win and get back maybe 75 bucks more than somebody else who just shows up and half sleeps through the whole set. I'm just not sure I've ever seen a competitive scratch league with the rules they have set up that pays out like a handicap league.
Yes I understand you don't bowl league to get rich, but there's no incentive to try or put any effort into it. If you're going to make within 100 bucks of everyone else no matter what, why drive in from out of town, why be kept up until midnight every night, why make sure you've got your league shirt and meet the dress code so you don't get fined, why have 2 lane courtesy, and why have to mess with trying to find subs all the time because you can only use your average ONCE per third? Why put up with all that when you can go find some fun handicap league without all the pretentious rules that still gets you to bed at a decent time and will give you the same payout structure? That's really what my issue is . . not too excited about losing sleep and jumping through a bunch of hoops in a pretentious league just to get nothing for it.
The other issue is that the prize fund had to have been changed or adjusted. No one voted on it, no one got to see it, that's just what it was. Again, based on how it had been paid out in the past, no one was worried about it because the secretary has been the same for a long time and he's done a very good job for a long time. And when you're already signed up and a few weeks into the league when you get to vote on a prize fund in other leagues anyway, what can you really do?
It adds up. Top got less, bottom got more.
If the $100 is going to make a difference in your life I'll send you $100. The future of the league is better off with a more balanced payout.
Simple as that.
Harsh, but true. No one is getting rich off bowling league. Im having a hard time seeing what your beef is. Its like taking a job but not knowing how much you'll be paid and then complain when you get your check. When money is involved ALWAYS get the particulars upfront.
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True . . and yeah it is about winning, but why is it about winning? What is the point of winning? There were no trophies, no recognition, no monetary incentives, absolutely nothing. It's just "here's your envelope, who's coming back next year? Ok have a great summer." It's a pretentious scratch league with a handicap league payout that offers absolutely nothing to the winners. Lol I don't even think they got their USBC league champion patch . .
Yeah I did get back more prize fund than I put into it, so I understand where you're coming from. But the top team in an 11 team league all nearly paid for their bowling, lineage included last year. The top team this year in a 14 team league bowled better and made less. Something isn't adding up. I sent the secretary an email, we'll see what I get back.
Even when adding more teams, whoever finishes on the bottom needs prize money, so a very small percentage hypothetically would get added to the rest of the league. Without having a prize fund report, it could be that last year was a little more top heavy and this year it's more spread out.
I'm fortunate that this year my leagues paid for themselves plus some. One league will pay $1000 ($875 total paid into it) plus my sec/treas fee of $650 ($0.25 per bowler per week) and my other league will pay around $800 (depending on where we finish on the roll-off as we do quarters) But again this isn't life changing money, it's more about having fun with the boys and winning as a TEAM. I'd rather win than make $100 bucks at the end of the year. Call me crazy but that's what league bowling is supposed to be about.
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It happens in every league. Some bowlers want all the money and could care less above the bottom teams. What happens to them? If you lose the bottom half because of the payout how many teams are left? Just my $.02, Bruce
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Pride and respect for the game is why you put effort into it.
Joining a league should be about what and where you want to bowl. And if you are joining a league for the money you should be smart enough to know there is not enough money in a league with 42 people.
And if anyone has a complaint it is the team that won, not the team that finished second.
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Maybe they should put in the extra work to improve or just not bowl a scratch league . . Again, in a handicap league that's all fine and good. But in a league that is supposed to be high average and competitive, I'm not sure why people who don't want to be competitive would bowl in the first place. Maybe I'm just in the minority. If I bowl a league and don't get much money back because I/the team didn't bowl well, then the goal next year would be to bowl better, not to leave or not to ask them to share the wealth. That's what's happened for years, I've bowled this league for a long time, never been on a good team, never got as much back, but I never complained about the guys that did. I just decided to put a better team together this year and put more effort into it. I did, and got nothing for it, so I'm a little pissed. In a competitive scratch league, you should make money or at least break even at the end of the year, it's supposed to be higher stakes. That's why I was trying to ask about other competitive scratch leagues, not other leagues in general.
It happens in every league. Some bowlers want all the money and could care less above the bottom teams. What happens to them? If you lose the bottom half because of the payout how many teams are left? Just my $.02, Bruce
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I'm complaining for the team that won also, because I made within 5 dollars of two of the 3 guys on that team, that isn't right. If you dominate a high average competitive scratch league, you should make money, I don't care if there are 10 people in the league. The difference between first and second every third was less than 7 dollars per person. I just think it's not right to completely dominate a league and lose 150 bucks on the year.
Pride and respect for the game is why you put effort into it.
Joining a league should be about what and where you want to bowl. And if you are joining a league for the money you should be smart enough to know there is not enough money in a league with 42 people.
And if anyone has a complaint it is the team that won, not the team that finished second.
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Maybe they should put in the extra work to improve or just not bowl a scratch league . . Again, in a handicap league that's all fine and good. But in a league that is supposed to be high average and competitive, I'm not sure why people who don't want to be competitive would bowl in the first place. Maybe I'm just in the minority. If I bowl a league and don't get much money back because I/the team didn't bowl well, then the goal next year would be to bowl better, not to leave or not to ask them to share the wealth. That's what's happened for years, I've bowled this league for a long time, never been on a good team, never got as much back, but I never complained about the guys that did. I just decided to put a better team together this year and put more effort into it. I did, and got nothing for it, so I'm a little pissed. In a competitive scratch league, you should make money or at least break even at the end of the year, it's supposed to be higher stakes. That's why I was trying to ask about other competitive scratch leagues, not other leagues in general.
It happens in every league. Some bowlers want all the money and could care less above the bottom teams. What happens to them? If you lose the bottom half because of the payout how many teams are left? Just my $.02, Bruce
Be happy you have a scratch league even if it's just 42 people in it. My centers biggest league is the one I run on Tuesdays. 15 teams of 5 men's league. Handicap is 100 of 240 and they wanted to raise it last year because I averaged 250 (next highest average was 220) There's some nights I'm out of wood in the 6th frame (if i'm going at a 230 pace) because i'm giving up 50-60 pins a game (we do individual and team points).
We have a team in our league that has a combined average of less than 900 (5 players) and they are in 2nd place. We are in first, but from a league standpoint i was hoping they would finish in 1st (it's great for the league if a really low team wins it) I'm by no means going to lay down for that team, but i'm in the bowling business and when a low average teams wins it keeps them coming back and it shows other teams they CAN compete against the higher average teams. The $1000 I win from the league is no where near the amount of money our center makes for having the league grow each year.
Now my long-term plan is to get this league on harder scoring conditions. Last year we used our normal house shot this year we used the White2 (scores went down slightly)and hopefully next year we will move to a Blue/Kegel pattern. It's going to be a 5 year plan in my mind to get them pretty tough but the guys are buying into the idea. I believe if you make them tougher gradually (and if you keep them consistent) people will adapt to the environment and still enjoy the game.
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Also if you want "higher stakes" paying $20 a week isn't gonna get you there lol
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There are way to many "extra" payouts in your league for the team money to be any good. Not enough money to go around if you are paying individual things like eliminators and match play and such.
If you finished 8/11 last year and got back 450 how is this year so out of line?
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Gizmo,
This is a league we used to have in the SF area. It was 4 people a team, scratch, 800 average cap. We had the same things you have, dress code (black slacks, team shirts), fines for inappropriate behavior, no hats, etc. We were trying to attract sponsors for the league and be a high-end scratch league. We bowled a little earlier than you, we started at 7:15. The house catered to us, allowed us to start later so people could make it from, they oiled the lanes right before we started and there was no bowling on the lanes until practice so everyone had the same fresh condition. We paid 37/week (this was back in 2001/2002/2003 time frame) and it paid $10,000 for first place. The league had a minimum of 32 teams the years I bowled in it, as high as 38 one year.
The reason I think this league worked so well, was because of the the way the playoff was structured. We had 3 divisions and bowled thirds. Every third the teams randomly drew for their division. The 9 division winners (or less if someone happened to win more than 1 third) were the first 9 seeds in the playoffs based on total points for the year (we bowled head to head against the person across from you, team game and team total points...I can't remember the exact breakdown anymore sorry). The team with the highest point total that won at least 1 division was guaranteed, no worse than 2nd place as they were seeded #1 and into the "championship match". After that we took wild card teams to get to a total of 12 team 12 teams in the playoffs. Once that is done, every other team in the league that wasn't in the playoff, rolled in a "last chance tournament" on the Saturday after the last night of league. We rolled 3 games and the top 6 teams in total pinfall advance. Then those 6 teams bowled head to head (1 vs. 6, 2 vs. 5, etc) ina two game match using our league scoring. This continued until there were 2 teams left, and they became teams 13 and 14 in the playoffs. So, theoretically, a team could go 0 - 300 for the year and still make the playoffs. The teams that missed the playoffs were then ranked from 15 - 32,36,38 and were paid that way. The playoffs started that same Saturday and continued on Sunday. Seeds 11 and 12 bowled seeds 14 and 13 respectively in 2 game matches using our league scoring. The winners bowled teams 9 and 10...and so on until there was 1 team remaining from the playoffs. That team would bowl the #1 seed on the next league night for the championship, while the rest of the league bowled in a sweeper night. So, again theoreticaly, that 0-300 team could win the $10,000 and first place. In made sure every point was worth something, cause getting that #1 seed is huge. But it also made it so everyone had a shot to get more money at the end of the year. One year, I remember, we were 18th overall, but we bowled well in the tournament and wound up finishing in 8th place and got a good chunk of extra cash per man for doing so.
Maybe, if you had something like this set-up, you could get people to agree to a more top-heavy payout, because everyone would have more of a chance to get it. Unfortunately, I don't know if this will work in today's environment. Due to the downturn and some mismanagement by new owners of the center, this league has disappeared. The league is still bowling, but it is a shadow of it's former self. The payout is down, only 12 teams, I am guessing the playoff is gone too. But it's a thought for you.
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The individual stuff is all pretty even across the board too.
8 out of 11 last year, 450. 2 out of 14 this year, 525. Don't like that. Should have been 250 last year and almost 700 this year. If you're in a competitive scratch league with a million rules and a dress code, if you don't bowl well, you shouldn't get much money back. In the match play standings, first gets 51 per third, dead last gets 20. Dead last shouldn't get a dime in my opinion, in fact the last several spots shouldn't get a thing. The "extras" used to be designed to still allow better bowlers on worse teams to be able to still make money despite that. However, that's all evened off now too.
I'm all for having as many people in the league as possible, but if the way we do that is by flattening the prize fund, they may as well just charge lineage and forget the prize fund because there's no point in having a secretary and keeping track of all kinds of stuff just to give everybody back nearly the same amount of money.
There are way to many "extra" payouts in your league for the team money to be any good. Not enough money to go around if you are paying individual things like eliminators and match play and such.
If you finished 8/11 last year and got back 450 how is this year so out of line?
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That sounds like a lot of fun . . we have a team baker tournament at the end of the year where you're seeded based on total points for the year, best 2 out of 3 to move on, so that's kind of fun, but not really.
Gizmo,
This is a league we used to have in the SF area. It was 4 people a team, scratch, 800 average cap. We had the same things you have, dress code (black slacks, team shirts), fines for inappropriate behavior, no hats, etc. We were trying to attract sponsors for the league and be a high-end scratch league. We bowled a little earlier than you, we started at 7:15. The house catered to us, allowed us to start later so people could make it from, they oiled the lanes right before we started and there was no bowling on the lanes until practice so everyone had the same fresh condition. We paid 37/week (this was back in 2001/2002/2003 time frame) and it paid $10,000 for first place. The league had a minimum of 32 teams the years I bowled in it, as high as 38 one year.
The reason I think this league worked so well, was because of the the way the playoff was structured. We had 3 divisions and bowled thirds. Every third the teams randomly drew for their division. The 9 division winners (or less if someone happened to win more than 1 third) were the first 9 seeds in the playoffs based on total points for the year (we bowled head to head against the person across from you, team game and team total points...I can't remember the exact breakdown anymore sorry). The team with the highest point total that won at least 1 division was guaranteed, no worse than 2nd place as they were seeded #1 and into the "championship match". After that we took wild card teams to get to a total of 12 team 12 teams in the playoffs. Once that is done, every other team in the league that wasn't in the playoff, rolled in a "last chance tournament" on the Saturday after the last night of league. We rolled 3 games and the top 6 teams in total pinfall advance. Then those 6 teams bowled head to head (1 vs. 6, 2 vs. 5, etc) ina two game match using our league scoring. This continued until there were 2 teams left, and they became teams 13 and 14 in the playoffs. So, theoretically, a team could go 0 - 300 for the year and still make the playoffs. The teams that missed the playoffs were then ranked from 15 - 32,36,38 and were paid that way. The playoffs started that same Saturday and continued on Sunday. Seeds 11 and 12 bowled seeds 14 and 13 respectively in 2 game matches using our league scoring. The winners bowled teams 9 and 10...and so on until there was 1 team remaining from the playoffs. That team would bowl the #1 seed on the next league night for the championship, while the rest of the league bowled in a sweeper night. So, again theoreticaly, that 0-300 team could win the $10,000 and first place. In made sure every point was worth something, cause getting that #1 seed is huge. But it also made it so everyone had a shot to get more money at the end of the year. One year, I remember, we were 18th overall, but we bowled well in the tournament and wound up finishing in 8th place and got a good chunk of extra cash per man for doing so.
Maybe, if you had something like this set-up, you could get people to agree to a more top-heavy payout, because everyone would have more of a chance to get it. Unfortunately, I don't know if this will work in today's environment. Due to the downturn and some mismanagement by new owners of the center, this league has disappeared. The league is still bowling, but it is a shadow of it's former self. The payout is down, only 12 teams, I am guessing the playoff is gone too. But it's a thought for you.
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You want 700 for finishing second and you still want extras to pay good bowlers on bad teams while paying 20 a week. You are just unrealistic. If you want to give the good bowlers on bad teams to be able to make money run a singles league within the league. Otherwise you are diluting the prize fund too much.
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It's just the principle of it, but I asked for perspective and you gave it to me.
And the future of the league isn't really better off . . I lost my team and there are a couple others considering not going back now because there's not really a reason to. You could show up and put a lot of effort into trying to win and get back maybe 75 bucks more than somebody else who just shows up and half sleeps through the whole set. I'm just not sure I've ever seen a competitive scratch league with the rules they have set up that pays out like a handicap league.
Yes I understand you don't bowl league to get rich, but there's no incentive to try or put any effort into it. If you're going to make within 100 bucks of everyone else no matter what, why drive in from out of town, why be kept up until midnight every night, why make sure you've got your league shirt and meet the dress code so you don't get fined, why have 2 lane courtesy, and why have to mess with trying to find subs all the time because you can only use your average ONCE per third? Why put up with all that when you can go find some fun handicap league without all the pretentious rules that still gets you to bed at a decent time and will give you the same payout structure? That's really what my issue is . . not too excited about losing sleep and jumping through a bunch of hoops in a pretentious league just to get nothing for it.
The other issue is that the prize fund had to have been changed or adjusted. No one voted on it, no one got to see it, that's just what it was. Again, based on how it had been paid out in the past, no one was worried about it because the secretary has been the same for a long time and he's done a very good job for a long time. And when you're already signed up and a few weeks into the league when you get to vote on a prize fund in other leagues anyway, what can you really do?
It adds up. Top got less, bottom got more.
If the $100 is going to make a difference in your life I'll send you $100. The future of the league is better off with a more balanced payout.
Simple as that.
Harsh, but true. No one is getting rich off bowling league. Im having a hard time seeing what your beef is. Its like taking a job but not knowing how much you'll be paid and then complain when you get your check. When money is involved ALWAYS get the particulars upfront.
Didn't you know all this when you started bowling the league?
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Maybe they should put in the extra work to improve or just not bowl a scratch league . . Again, in a handicap league that's all fine and good. But in a league that is supposed to be high average and competitive, I'm not sure why people who don't want to be competitive would bowl in the first place. Maybe I'm just in the minority. If I bowl a league and don't get much money back because I/the team didn't bowl well, then the goal next year would be to bowl better, not to leave or not to ask them to share the wealth. That's what's happened for years, I've bowled this league for a long time, never been on a good team, never got as much back, but I never complained about the guys that did. I just decided to put a better team together this year and put more effort into it. I did, and got nothing for it, so I'm a little pissed. In a competitive scratch league, you should make money or at least break even at the end of the year, it's supposed to be higher stakes. That's why I was trying to ask about other competitive scratch leagues, not other leagues in general.
It happens in every league. Some bowlers want all the money and could care less above the bottom teams. What happens to them? If you lose the bottom half because of the payout how many teams are left? Just my $.02, Bruce
Be happy you have a scratch league even if it's just 42 people in it. My centers biggest league is the one I run on Tuesdays. 15 teams of 5 men's league. Handicap is 100 of 240 and they wanted to raise it last year because I averaged 250 (next highest average was 220) There's some nights I'm out of wood in the 6th frame (if i'm going at a 230 pace) because i'm giving up 50-60 pins a game (we do individual and team points).
We have a team in our league that has a combined average of less than 900 (5 players) and they are in 2nd place. We are in first, but from a league standpoint i was hoping they would finish in 1st (it's great for the league if a really low team wins it) I'm by no means going to lay down for that team, but i'm in the bowling business and when a low average teams wins it keeps them coming back and it shows other teams they CAN compete against the higher average teams. The $1000 I win from the league is no where near the amount of money our center makes for having the league grow each year.
Now my long-term plan is to get this league on harder scoring conditions. Last year we used our normal house shot this year we used the White2 (scores went down slightly)and hopefully next year we will move to a Blue/Kegel pattern. It's going to be a 5 year plan in my mind to get them pretty tough but the guys are buying into the idea. I believe if you make them tougher gradually (and if you keep them consistent) people will adapt to the environment and still enjoy the game.
250 average huh? Did I read that right?
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two fitty and complaining.
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two fitty and complaining.
Not once did I complain....I said theres some games i'm out of wood by the 6th frame, I could be out of wood after 6 frames if it were scratch also. That's not a complaint. I'm in the business of trying to grow bowling not be like Gizmo and complain about every facet of bowling.
And yes Northface I said 250
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Fair enough.
Westerly RI by any chance?
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So how do you make something better without pointing out and debating the flaws? Just because I complain a lot here doesn't mean I do it in person. This is an internet forum . . I do all my arguing and debating and get all kinds of information from a lot of people a lot more experienced than I am here, then I apply that elsewhere. I can't imagine all you guys are the same way here as you are in person.
two fitty and complaining.
Not once did I complain....I said theres some games i'm out of wood by the 6th frame, I could be out of wood after 6 frames if it were scratch also. That's not a complaint. I'm in the business of trying to grow bowling not be like Gizmo and complain about every facet of bowling.
And yes Northface I said 250
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I didn't say I wanted extras, I said that's what they were there for. And I've seen guys walk out of there with 700 bucks that were on 3rd or 4th place teams, so I'm not sure how I'm being unrealistic. It's happened before with a lot fewer teams.
You want 700 for finishing second and you still want extras to pay good bowlers on bad teams while paying 20 a week. You are just unrealistic. If you want to give the good bowlers on bad teams to be able to make money run a singles league within the league. Otherwise you are diluting the prize fund too much.
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Fair enough.
Westerly RI by any chance?
No
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I would have no problems saying the same things to your face as I type here. The difference is you can't type with any tone so a lot of things come across a lot harsher when they are just written words.
Cause in person I would have gotten a hundy out of my pocket and told you to quit bitchin' cause if your dumb enough to travel to another city and not get home until after midnight to bowl league I don't want to hear about it.
I guess there are a lot more guys averaging 250 than I ever would have guessed and I know of about a handful.
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Leagues are not for making money leagues are for entertainment. You should know out of the gate how the prize fund will be distributed no questions asked. It should be voted on and a break down should be provided at the banquet.
Even you want to make money bowl tournaments
250 average...I don't brag a league average unless it is on Sport Conditions. And before everyone asks what I average it is not 250. It is less than that.
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So how do you make something better without pointing out and debating the flaws? Just because I complain a lot here doesn't mean I do it in person. This is an internet forum . . I do all my arguing and debating and get all kinds of information from a lot of people a lot more experienced than I am here, then I apply that elsewhere. I can't imagine all you guys are the same way here as you are in person.
I am a foul-mouthed, hot-tempered, mean-spirited person in real life. I balance that out by my behavior on this site as I imagine most others do.
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Sigh . . it was other teams that come from out of town . . so actually they get to bed later than I do. But then again, they expected the money at the top to be better, as did we all. I travel to THEIR city to bowl on Thursday evenings, but I'm home well before midnight, it's a better, bigger league with more money . . so I'm considering bowling just that league next year. But when you're as involved as I am with local bowling, not bowling a league in your own city looks kinda bad.
I would have no problems saying the same things to your face as I type here. The difference is you can't type with any tone so a lot of things come across a lot harsher when they are just written words.
Cause in person I would have gotten a hundy out of my pocket and told you to quit bitchin' cause if your dumb enough to travel to another city and not get home until after midnight to bowl league I don't want to hear about it.
I guess there are a lot more guys averaging 250 than I ever would have guessed and I know of about a handful.
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Yeah I'm going to know exactly what the money looks like before I even sign up next year.
I do bowl tournaments, pretty successful I might add . . here's hoping for good bracket draws at nationals next weekend.
Leagues are not for making money leagues are for entertainment. You should know out of the gate how the prize fund will be distributed no questions asked. It should be voted on and a break down should be provided at the banquet.
Even you want to make money bowl tournaments
250 average...I don't brag a league average unless it is on Sport Conditions. And before everyone asks what I average it is not 250. It is less than that.
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I wouldn't say I'm exactly opposite how I post here, but customers describe me as patient, helpful, interested, and friendly . . but I can be that way for them because of everyone here.
So how do you make something better without pointing out and debating the flaws? Just because I complain a lot here doesn't mean I do it in person. This is an internet forum . . I do all my arguing and debating and get all kinds of information from a lot of people a lot more experienced than I am here, then I apply that elsewhere. I can't imagine all you guys are the same way here as you are in person.
I am a foul-mouthed, hot-tempered, mean-spirited person in real life. I balance that out by my behavior on this site as I imagine most others do.
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one thing ive noticed that u pointed out is that u never got to see a prize list
and that too is the case in all my leagues where i live. it used to be that u got see a prize list and to that point usually see 3 proposals and the league members got to vote on wich was their preference. I sure wish this would come into play again. i dont like not seeing where every dime goes , and even though i trust the secretary of our leagues to me it makes it easier to hide something if something were to go wrong. SO in that way leagues of today are flawed but mostly bowlers way of thinking are flawed . its like they wanna just show up and bowl and make the same as everyone else. just my 2 cents.
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I am a foul-mouthed, hot-tempered, mean-spirited person in real life. I balance that out by my behavior on this site as I imagine most others do.
Best.... post..... ever!