BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: JJKinGA on April 21, 2014, 10:53:33 AM
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I just read this article about concern in golf for losing players due to low scoring and active plans to increase the scoring pace...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/sports/golf/in-a-hole-golf-considers-digging-a-wider-one.html?_r=0
Obviously they never looked to see what easier scoring conditions have done to help grow bowling.
Doesn't anyone try and promote being great at soemthing difficult? Doesn't anyone promote the experience rather than a false sense of accomplishment?
If I can't enjoy bowling or golf for what it is, will I really enjoy it more if it is easier?
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That's not the intent...the intent is in accommodating anyone that wants to play and allow them to participate in a timely manner...I will not play on a weekend due to the timeframe of a 6hr round
They said something similar when they added tee boxes to accommodate different levels of ability...
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I think the larger holes are a great way to speed up play. Sometimes, golf and bowling are compared to closely on this site. They are wildly different sports, and golf is not losing popularity in any way.
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Actually more people quit golf each year than quit bowling. The difficulty comparing the two is that golf counts all its recreational players, and bowling normally only counts USBC members in its attrition rate. Golf really took a beating during the economic downturn. Too many course built in housing developments, and both tanked. Twenty years ago I had to call early on a Tuesday morning to get a Saturday tee time at any of our nice muni courses. Today I can call on Friday
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Right and with golf anyone can play basically at any time...if I want to go play I don't need an index to do so but bowling tries to really key in on league bowling
This is why I get tired of hearing bowling is broke or needs to be fixed...the purity of the game is fine...it's just not structured as it was 20-30 yrs ago
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I rarely see golfers master the first 450 yards in two strokes only to 3 putt every time. Putting is the easiest thing to practice anywhere.
Most people struggle understanding how important it is to play from the fairway consistently to greatly improve scores. Too many people lose strokes or make things worst trying to play one in a million golf shots like they are pros.
Most people don't seem to notice how much time pros spend reading the greens before they putt.
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A mythical look to the future as to what could happen if golf follows in the "direction" of modern-day bowling ...
http://www.examiner.com/article/a-tragic-view-of-two-sports-future-will-golf-follow-bowling-s-fatal-path
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Fish,
That is the stupidest article I've ever read. They aren't trying to reinvent the game, just appeal to more people. Golf is hard for most people. You could make every hole 350 yards and straight and most people still couldn't break 100.
This is golf's answer to the smaller courts, small rackets and slower balls for kids in tennis.
The big thing is golf could do this at the same time, on the same greens as a traditional cup using different colored flags.
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Golf, bowling, or anything that we do for recreation, will suffer in a prolonged economy slump. The longer one goes without something, the less that "something" will be missed. We will find other things to do with our time. When push comes to shove, we will meet our needs before addressing our wants.
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If you suck at putting 9 out of 10 times, if you miss with a traditional 4.5" hole you will more than likely miss with a larger cup
Look at bowling...what is the actual percentage of 200+ average bowlers? 5%? So the 'easy' lane conditions haven't help the other 90+% of bowlers
Bowling is not broken...it is an minimal amts mentality it is
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Sounds to me like golf is already worried about the decline and are trying to come up with ways to keep people involved.
A question to pose it those in the know, if we had not seen a change in ball technology and in lane patterns and the scoring pace remained the same as in the 70's and 80's how would that have kept league bowling numbers up?
Mark
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The scoring environment is not what chased bowlers away...
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I agree with you but others think bowling could have stayed the same if scoring was more difficult.
The scoring environment is not what chased bowlers away...
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Fish,
That is the stupidest article I've ever read.
Dear itsallaboutme:
Thanks for your comment, but isn't it obvious that the column wasn't SUPPOSED to be serious (and certainly not fact-based)?
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Only 10% of golfers can break 90. Nothing to worry about.
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Only 10% of golfers can break 90. Nothing to worry about.
Regards,
Luckylefty
... but in bowling (unlike golf), MANY amateur local bowlers ROUTINELY post scores that are as good (or better) than scores posted in PBA tournaments ... and needless to say, I'm more than well aware that the pros don't bowl on the THS conditions that most league bowlers compete on.
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Only 10% of golfers can break 90. Nothing to worry about.
Regards,
Luckylefty
... but in bowling (unlike golf), MANY amateur local bowlers ROUTINELY post scores that are as good (or better) than scores posted in PBA tournaments ... and needless to say, I'm more than well aware that the pros don't bowl on the THS conditions that most league bowlers compete on.
Fish the same can be said for golf when amateurs try to play on courses set up for PGA and the find their stroke count go up.
Mark
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Only 10% of golfers can break 90. Nothing to worry about.
Regards,
Luckylefty
... but in bowling (unlike golf), MANY amateur local bowlers ROUTINELY post scores that are as good (or better) than scores posted in PBA tournaments ... and needless to say, I'm more than well aware that the pros don't bowl on the THS conditions that most league bowlers compete on.
In BOWLING, you have a guy who's been bowling for 3 years who shoots 900-875 in back to back weeks. Tell me the last time you saw a golf story about a guy shooting 55-58?
The mechanics of the golf swing are the toughest in sports. I don't care how much easier you make it, the game itself is hard.
Short of lining the fairways with 50 foot walls and having greens shaped like funnels, you're not going to come close to what bowling did to itself in the late 80's (short oil) and early 90's (resin). I love bowling, but golf is so much harder this isn't even a conversation.
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Bowling (PBA) and golf (PGA) at the highest levels are so far ahead of any amateur whatever the levels...the problem is the casual observer watching bowling sees a very limited playing field (4' X 60') that it tends to be difficult to fathom the severities where the same individual can see the different in a 250 yd drive compared to 325 yd drive and the severity of the rough or speed of the greens
At the highest levels, the complexity of both, the golf or bowling swings are quite accomplished as well as comparable...and both are quite difficult to master...
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Being a pretty good high school golfer on a team with two state champions I like many mid 70s shooters at that level of play I never swung a golf club correctly.
Finally after 10 years with the help of a great lesson I made one correct golf swing!
30 more years of great golf swings followed, not everyone of course!
As to 55 58. I believe that is what Tiger Woods and some of these other golf phenoms on todays pro tours would do to a pro tour course from the 70s on their good weeks!
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I just heard the bowler with the 900 875 is from Ocala, Florida! Where Walter Ray is from, must be something in the water there!
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In BOWLING, you have a guy who's been bowling for 3 years who shoots 900-875 in back to back weeks. Tell me the last time you saw a golf story about a guy shooting 55-58?
Exactly. Routinely in THS league play, local amateurs roll scores as high as the pro bowlers do in tournament play, but you don't see local amateur golfers shooting scores better than the golf professionals do in tournament competition.
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In BOWLING, you have a guy who's been bowling for 3 years who shoots 900-875 in back to back weeks. Tell me the last time you saw a golf story about a guy shooting 55-58?
Exactly. Routinely in THS league play, local amateurs roll scores as high as the pro bowlers do in tournament play, but you don't see local amateur golfers shooting scores better than the golf professionals do in tournament competition.
Because they are different sports. They score differently and cannot be compared in every way.
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If you are going to compare league to the PBA Tour, you have to compare a men's club golfer to the PGA Tour. There is a guy in the mens club I play in with 10 of his last 20 scores in the 60's with a 63 and a 64. That compares to a high level league bowler shooting the same scores as a PBA Tour bowler.
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In BOWLING, you have a guy who's been bowling for 3 years who shoots 900-875 in back to back weeks. Tell me the last time you saw a golf story about a guy shooting 55-58?
Exactly. Routinely in THS league play, local amateurs roll scores as high as the pro bowlers do in tournament play, but you don't see local amateur golfers shooting scores better than the golf professionals do in tournament competition.
Because they are different sports. They score differently and cannot be compared in every way.
No, but the casual fan understands the difference between the pro who hits it 340 and the local guy who hits it 280. With bowling, they just see strikes and don't understand that the THB is aiming at foot wide target and a pro is looking a 2-3" at 45 feet. They just see strikes.
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As to creating a foot of area on a top hat? Hmmmmm?
Not many do! But those that do create a lot of 700s.
I am working on a clean release, a better flat spot and matching revs to speed and I am getting near 8 inches of miss area some days on a top hat. This with my assymetrics.
I don't see many with much more! But occasionally I do!
As to the pro bowling tours I know they are looking for miss area. Hopefully both ways but they will take both ways.
I get a kick out of thoughts of shot control, because in golf not too many people on full shots in the air care much about intermediate aiming points, ie I still remember seeing Lee Trevino in the 70s aiming 20 yards off the fairway and then push fading almost a total of 60 yards as it curved all the way to just in the fairway right side!
So much for hitting your mark.
When watching the pros yesterday I noted that I felt they had close to 4 inches at the break point and the two guys with the most area might have had more. PDW and Tom Baker.
There are no machines in human activities!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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First of all...WHAT?
Secondly, in golf aiming pertains to not only alignment on the tee box of trajectory but also where want the ball to end up, similar to bowling...if you're playing the gutter, you are aiming approx 10-15 boards away from the intended target
As far as miss area, yes ALL the top players look for miss area but you also must remember, their bad shots are better than the rests good shot...there is a reason why they are better plain & simple
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If you have ever bowled with a pro caliber player and pay attention you will notice a big difference. If someone does something every day for a living they stand out from those who do not.
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I picked up a local paper the other day and saw scores from a local high school golf tournament. 5 guys shot in the 60's.
I have been bowling for 50 years. Even in the early 70's there were lots of guys averaging over 200 in leagues. Every 170 average league bowler thought we all should be on tour. Nothing changes.
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No, but the casual fan understands the difference between the pro who hits it 340 and the local guy who hits it 280. With bowling, they just see strikes and don't understand that the THB is aiming at foot wide target and a pro is looking a 2-3" at 45 feet. They just see strikes.
Dear Mongo:
Again, you make a valid observation.
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Mighty,
Most pros get shorter when they go on tour! There are many amateurs bombing it on their local courses today!
I'll never forget the first and only time I saw Tiger Woods play in person. He was averaging about 325 on a tight course and playing army golf. This about 6 months before his first Masters victory.
On the other hand I was amazed by his short game as I could not believe his sand game, his flop, his chipping and his putting.
Statistics go on to back it up in that for much of his dominant period he was lucky to ever average 13 greens in regulation and this even in the year when breaking Byron Nelsons scoring record in 2000 with an average of 68.13.
This meant that Tiger averaged almost 9 under par on the short game per day! This in recovering on the 5 missed greens per day and birdieing 4 other holes per day.
The 2nd time I realized that pro golf would not be for me or anyone I knew is the day I saw at that time future US open champion David Graham shoot a 73 On a PGA tour course while hitting maybe 3 to 5 greens. Some of his shots barely got in the air!
A State Amateur champ friend of mine when asked what he would have shot if hitting the ball that bad stated, "I've never hit the ball that bad!" I re asked, "but if you did....?"."His answer, ,,,, "That bad???? Ummmm, 93!"
Short game!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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I've been waiting on this news for some time, just so it will (hopefully) shut up a lot of the "scoring pace is the devil" critics who think that's what led to the downfall of league bowling.
What has led to the downfall of both sports is increased competition for a person's time from other interests, the breakdown of local economic systems, increased cost of participation, and sociological changes such as people simply becoming less social and more insulated behind computer screens. And while bowlers lost a lot of bowling centers along the way, golfers lost even more in terms of golf courses going under in 1999/2000 and 2006-2008.
It is much easier to identify the scoring pace, especially if the person doing it feels threatened by others suddenly bowling scores comparable to his/her own.
I've told this story before, but I used to live in a town where the local steel plant shut down its third shift, and when it did that, an entire 24-team league quit. That's 24 teams times five bowlers, or 120 people. You could add up everyone else I've ever known to quit bowling over the last 25 years, for whatever reason, and you wouldn't get to 120. I still can count the number of people who left because "scores are too high" on two hands and still have digits left over.
The scoring pace argument is a total red herring, and it becomes less of a reason every year, as older bowlers who were around pre-resin die off. Within the next 20 years, there won't be many people who began competitive bowling prior to resin's arrival, thus the excuse will be completely irrelevant, not that it isn't irrelevant already.
Golf's problems share a lot in common with bowling's problems, but people don't quit golf because it's too easy. I know plenty to have quit it because it's too hard; I'm still waiting to meet the first person to quit it because it was too easy. I have, however, met plenty of people opposed to six-hour rounds, $70 greens fees (plus another $25 for the cart if you don't want to walk), courses in shoddy condition for the price, etc.
If you want to bring both sports' numbers back, either work on the value side of golf and bowling for awhile, or figure out a way to spin the Wayback Machine back to where parents weren't helicoptering over their kids' travel ball schedules, the middle class wasn't economically threatened, or find a way to turn off video games. Just don't try to sell me on scoring pace being the problem, because it's not.
Jess
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Well stated Jess, but unfortunately there will still be those that will claim that scoring pace is too high and that the THS is too easy and claim that they have caused the reduction in league play. :-\
Mark
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If you want to bring both sports' numbers back, either work on the value side of golf and bowling for awhile, or figure out a way to spin the Wayback Machine back to where parents weren't helicoptering over their kids' travel ball schedules, the middle class wasn't economically threatened, or find a way to turn off video games. Just don't try to sell me on scoring pace being the problem, because it's not.
Jess
Winner.
I think bowling is more guilty of pricing themselves away from their market than golf has been by a long shot.
Unlike Jess, I still have access to decently priced rounds of golf ($20 w/cart during week, $30 on weekend), but greens fees haven't escalated like bowling prices have.
I would argue price is a bigger issue with bowling. Let's be honest, bowling appeals to a lower income bracket and when bowling 4-5 games costs more than 18 holes at a municipal GC, that's a problem.
Golf is following one path that bowling did.....equipment of the month. TaylorMade is hor-ri-ble about mass equipment dumps on a yearly basis. Equipment junkies can stay broke On the flip side, I have no problem buying last year's driver for 1/2 price (or better). Unlike bowling, golf equipment advances are strictly watched by the USGA and other than the speed slots, there haven't been any huge advances that warranted multiple purchases.
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Here is what people forget about bowling. The sport entered an unsustainable boom due to the advent of the automatic pinsetter and the coming of age of the baby boom generation. The decline in organized bowling has been about the aging population, and not nearly as many new bowlers joining leagues due to competition from other recreational activities not generally available in the 1950's. People quit bowling because they get too old. People quit golf because of the difficulty of becoming accomplished at even a rudimentary level, the cost, and the time commitment to play a round.
Both bowling and golf are recreational activities that have a professional level of competition. Unlike golf, bowling succeeded temporarily in enticing a large proportion of the recreational level of bowlers to join organized competition. Something that golf never attempted.
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You can't compare bowling with municipal golf. Most municipal golf courses are subsidized by the city's parks and recreation department. So unless your city owns the local bowling center and subsidizes it the comparison isn't fair.
As I've said many times, people want to bowl in shiny new bowling centers with new lanes and a lane machine that costs as much as a car, but pay 80's prices.
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Bowling is honestly one of the fairer priced activities for families in comparison...bowling balls have increased in cost approx 20% in the past 20 yrs yet retail prices stay at mid 90's prices...yet gas prices have increased over 4X's since then
Golf at it's highest levels are not even comparable...Pebble Beach remains at $495 a round and surviving quite well...golf courses are closing similar to bowling centers but have much more land involved
Bowling is generally a year round game able to be played during any weather by all ages...scoring by be a bit skewed but there is very little broken with it other than certain individuals wanting a return to 'the greater days' which will never happen...all of the these are business ventures and if they do not evolve they will fail...plain & simple
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I think bowling and golf are both great games, that have their own share of weaknesses and strengths. Golf has always seemed to be less intuitive to the average beginner, making it more difficult for many to get above the proverbial hacker status. Bowlings biggest challenge comes from the subtlety in difficulty of getting to the elite level. The amount of versatility necessary to compete over a broad range of lane conditions is very much under rated.
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You guys think bowling is expensive? You should try motocross.
Cost me around $100 a month to take my bike out twice, just to practice. Not even including what it would cost me to race.
Bowling? $15-$20 a league, and free practice.
Regarding golf, I know an instructor that gave me basically a full set of lessons when I was younger, and I just couldnt manage to stick with it. It is, at least for me, much harder to learn than bowling was.
All the casual golfers I know couldnt touch a pro in a game of golf.
However, we have a local PBA tour player here, and a few months ago me and my nothing-to-brag-about 195 average managed to beat him scratch.
Now if I took on a PGA tour player...
I cant imagine the same scenario happening.
Bowling is more of a level playing field now for the competitive players. Even the casual bowlers can still put up decent scores and at least have a remote chance of winning. I see low average bowlers/teams win league games and place high in season standings against "better" players and teams frequently.
Whether thats good or bad for the sport is still debatable.
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I've been waiting on this news for some time, just so it will (hopefully) shut up a lot of the "scoring pace is the devil" critics who think that's what led to the downfall of league bowling.
<snipped>
Great post, saved me the typing. The dying middle class, blue collar manufacturing sector, coupled with the fast paced Facebook youth, and a craptastic economy make bowling wither on the vine - and this is put to rest with the aging houses not moving or staying relevant and marketing to the "new" bowler.
Golf has similar, but not completely identical problems...but it has advantages over bowling as it appeals to a more affluent market segment, exists on ground and in areas where the folks still spending live and want to be, and enjoys an "elite" sporting status.
Bowling is not coming back to the 1970's. Ever. Sorry, that's the post industrial world we're living in. Enjoy what we have, try to get people into it, hope your center has some marketing savvy. Or, find a new sport.