BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: xrayjay on October 17, 2017, 06:02:40 PM
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My friends are asking me to return to playing golf. And they don't know much about the handicap system in golf... I remember it a little, I just haven't played in 8 to 9 years.
Anyway......I don't know if this is a legit question... but I'm just curious...
If bowling somehow had a "pattern rating and slope" per pattern similar to golf slope and course rating, would it somehow work?
rating/slope = 68/120
If I shoot 91 and my adjusted score for that course is 70 with a 20 hndcp.
My buddy shoots 79 and his end score is 70 from a handicap of 9.... we both buy each other beers afterwards..
in bowling, can this work somehow? or the systems in place is suffice.
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It won't work because you can't change the basic layout of a golf course and you can change the lane pattern at a push of the button.
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The idea of using a slope rating for bowling lanes has been around for years, but it has never gone anywhere.
Most have felt that the ratings would wind up being based mostly on the Inspector/Raters opinion and would be too subjective and not consistent around the country.
With the advent of Kegel's LaneMap technology part of that could be addressed, But also to implement this idea it would require money and let's face it bowler's won't pay for it.
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The slope rating won't work, because there is not enough manpower to determine the difficulty/condition of every house. I won the senior championships in Virginia for my age group a few years ago. Went to Vegas to bowl in the national championships. I was high scratch and finished 11th with handicap, out of the money. I talked to some of the winners and they all bowled in crappy houses that were in terrible condition. It kept their averages low and handicap high. 140-160 in the bad houses, with 180-200 in good houses. The difficulty of each house would have to be determined by going to each house and doing a lot of measurements. Not enough manpower or coordination to do this on a national basis.
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You can't do it, because as people have been finding out through research/testing, lane topography plays a huge factor. Who is going to go in and test every pattern on every pair of lanes?
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It can be done, but not against the characteristics of the house. Bowlers should be rated as compared against other bowlers on similar conditions, not the characteristics of the facility.
If you are in the top 1% of bowlers in your house, then you will probably be in the top 1% where ever you bowl.
USBC has all the data needed to use this method. With the league, USBC Open, State and Local tournament averages, it would be a somewhat simple task to rate bowlers correctly.
I guess it would be a slope rating of the bowler, instead of the house. ;D
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If you are in the top 1% of bowlers in your house, then you will probably be in the top 1% where ever you bowl.
This is likely correct, but that's a very small portion of bowlers. What about the bowlers below that? I have definitely been much better at certain houses over the years than others, and I've seen the same from many people in my area.
And then what about the larger centers? Sometimes one end plays much differently than the other. I'm assuming that some multi-level houses also have the same issue.
Lastly, some areas are more prone to humidity changes than others.
I just don't see it working.
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If you are in the top 1% of bowlers in your house, then you will probably be in the top 1% where ever you bowl.
This is likely correct, but that's a very small portion of bowlers. What about the bowlers below that? I have definitely been much better at certain houses over the years than others, and I've seen the same from many people in my area.
And then what about the larger centers? Sometimes one end plays much differently than the other. I'm assuming that some multi-level houses also have the same issue.
Lastly, some areas are more prone to humidity changes than others.
I just don't see it working.
Okay, let me extrapolate the idea a bit. Sure, the top 1% are generally going to be in their same top 1% group no matter where they bowl.
Therefore, a bowler who is in the 5% to 10% range of bowlers in their house, will probably fall into that same group if they bowl elsewhere.
If a bowler is not better in the top 40% of bowlers in their house, but IS better than the bottom 40% of bowlers in their house, I would guess that said bowler would fit into the same percentile group no matter where they bowled or on what condition.
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Just bowled a High Roller in Vegas with handicap divisions. Cut score every day was higher in the handicap divisions. Also a 175 average bowler won the 1 game shootout finals for 10 k. Lots of problems with bowling handicaps, but not sure golf is any better. Certainly more incentive to sandbag in bowling given the amount of money available. On the other hand the guy who eon the above tournament clearly had an appropriate average.
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A golf handicap is not your average, it's your potential. If bowling made you adjust your scores and only used your best 10 out of 20 sets then they would be comparable.
A single digit handicap golfer can't post a score toward their handicap over double bogey. Maybe a bowler averaging 220 shouldn't be able to count a 140 toward their handicap.
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A golf handicap is not your average, it's your potential.
+1
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A golf handicap is not your average, it's your potential. If bowling made you adjust your scores and only used your best 10 out of 20 sets then they would be comparable.
A single digit handicap golfer can't post a score toward their handicap over double bogey. Maybe a bowler averaging 220 shouldn't be able to count a 140 toward their handicap.
I don't know all the intricacies of the golf handicapping system, but I've been wondering if bowling could do something similar to golf. Currently in bowling if your handicap is 50 pins, you get 50 pins added to your score if you shoot 150 or 300. Shouldn't the system be more like the golf system to where the handicap allows you to aid your bad shots. Could this help eliminate sandbagging as well, as you will only get help on bad shots and not additional pins if you bowl well. Not sure how it would be able to work with the automatic scorers though.
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Actually that isn't how handicap works in golf. If you have established a 10 handicap you get 20 subtracted from your score no matter what you shoot. Often there are exceptions in tournaments where the low net score is adjusted back up to the course record.
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Whatever system is used, you should not be able to go past 300/900. Just absurd that this is allowed.
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A golf handicap is not your average, it's your potential.
+1
+2
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Whatever system is used, you should not be able to go past 300/900. Just absurd that this is allowed.
It doesn't have to be allowed if a league doesn't want to allow it. Handicap scores can be capped at 300/900
USBC Rule 100g. Handicap
5. A handicap game or series shall not be capped unless otherwise provided by league rule. If a league adopts such a rule, a game or series cannot be capped below the highest possible scratch score.
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I've read dozens of threads and opinions on handicap and I don't know if I've seen anybody mention this idea I just thought of. I probably ain't the first but here it goes -
What about a progressive type of handicap system? Handicap is 90% of 220. To get 90% you have to average at least 210. 200 average gets 85%. 190 average gets 80%. 170 average gets 75%. 165 average gets 70%, ect. What say you???
I'm thinking this is more incentive for the low average guys to get better so they can get a bigger percentage of handicap. Plus is sucks when a 210avg/9handicap bowler rolls a 220 for a net 229 and ends up losing to a 135average/76handicap that rolls a 155 for a net 231.
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I've read dozens of threads and opinions on handicap and I don't know if I've seen anybody mention this idea I just thought of. I probably ain't the first but here it goes -
What about a progressive type of handicap system? Handicap is 90% of 220. To get 90% you have to average at least 210. 200 average gets 85%. 190 average gets 80%. 170 average gets 75%. 165 average gets 70%, ect. What say you???
I'm thinking this is more incentive for the low average guys to get better so they can get a bigger percentage of handicap. Plus is sucks when a 210avg/9handicap bowler rolls a 220 for a net 229 and ends up losing to a 135average/76handicap that rolls a 155 for a net 231.
In your system, every lower average bowler who can do basic math will quit.
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I was a lower average bowler once. I'm guessing none of us came out of the womb bowling scratch. But we are still here and still bowling. But I see your point.
Usually a majority vote at the beginning of the season sets the handicap. I guess a true test would be to bring it up for a vote and see how many hands get raised. I know for a fact it would never pass where I'm at. But I thought I'd throw it out there to you guys and get some feedback. Good or bad.
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I was a lower average bowler once. I'm guessing none of us came out of the womb bowling scratch. But we are still here and still bowling. But I see your point.
Usually a majority vote at the beginning of the season sets the handicap. I guess a true test would be to bring it up for a vote and see how many hands get raised. I know for a fact it would never pass where I'm at. But I thought I'd throw it out there to you guys and get some feedback. Good or bad.
The problem, at least in my area, is the average age of league bowlers. Most of use are at least 40 with ages going all the way up to the mid 90's.
There is the occasional "new" bowler, but I would guess that %80+ of these folks have been bowling for years. They would like to improve on their 160-200 average, but at this point in their life/bowling career, it ain't gonna happen and they know it.
So if you give them a handicapping system where they have zero chance to be competitive, they will be at bingo on Tuesday nights instead of bowling . ;D
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Tee boxes and courses are generally based upon what an average golfer flies the ball
The averages have not changed in approximately 15 yrs
Hazards are placed knowing these stats...most hazards are on the right sides as the average golfer fades or slices the ball...most hazards off the tee are in the 220 range as the average golfer flies 210-220 yds off the tee
The average golfer does not hit a 7 iron 150 yds
The average golfer generally does not truly know how far they hit their clubs
A golf course can be adjusted or altered with height and density of rough, speed and cutting process of fairways and greens
A bowling lane is STILL 4.5' wide and 60' long...
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I'm sure there is a point to this story...
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I'm sure there is a point to this story...
Wishfull thinking. Handicap threads and clean game definition threads go on and on and on like the energizer bunny. Hey, at least there isn't a politics section in this forum. Then we would get invaded by trolls, bots, and paid posters.
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I'm sure there is a point to this story...
Wishfull thinking. Handicap threads and clean game definition threads go on and on and on like the energizer bunny. Hey, at least there isn't a politics section in this forum. Then we would get invaded by trolls, bots, and paid posters.
Yea, if there was a "Non-Bowling Misc" forum, things might get ugly with name calling, cursing, verbal fights, threats, making sh1t up about other people and just general being an a$$hole.
I know this because I've seen me do it. :o ;D
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Agree with the 300, 900 limit
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I would think that having a bracket approach where a bowler has to bowl within a range of their average for the score to count towards winning money. I think drag racing does something like that where you cannot be a lot faster than the time you entered.
Seems like some approach to clamp down on sandbagging would help more than anything else and I guess is the thought behind the original post. It is common knowledge in my area that some people only bowl at the houses that you cannot score well at. I guess it can work the other way as bowlers who bowl were the scores are higher will not do as well handicap wise.
I would venture a guess that most people who bowl in a league have seen people who seem to sandbag.
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I'm a numbers/math guy and I've crunched, plotted, and graphed handicaps out over time on spreadsheets. I'm sure there are hundreds of guys before me who tried to do the same thing, and I'm sure many we're much smarter than me.
I finally gave up because no matter what system you put in place cheaters/sandbaggers will come up with a way to beat or circumvent the rules you create.
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I'm a numbers/math guy and I've crunched, plotted, and graphed handicaps out over time on spreadsheets. I'm sure there are hundreds of guys before me who tried to do the same thing, and I'm sure many we're much smarter than me.
I finally gave up because no matter what system you put in place cheaters/sandbaggers will come up with a way to beat or circumvent the rules you create.
If you base it on the bowlers average, you are right, there is no way to keep the shitbaggers in check.