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Author Topic: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.  (Read 9479 times)

Juggernaut

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Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« on: March 07, 2022, 05:07:17 PM »
https://www.bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622337345

At least you can get a replacement ball.

Find it a bit odd that they said it was still USBC approved, you just can’t use it in a national tournament.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 05:12:23 PM by Juggernaut »
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avabob

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2022, 05:21:00 PM »
Doesn't anyone have an effing Durometer anymore.  This is getting ridiculous.  If the ball is too soft you throw it out if not you don't go by manufacturing date.  Same with the PBA.  They went even more crazy outlawing all urethane more than 2 years old
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bradl

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2022, 05:42:31 PM »
Hmm.. and weren't we just talking about the slippery slope in the other thread? Here we are with it now.

That said, props to Brunswick for offering to replace this, not only with just a Reynosa pour, but any ball of the bowler's choice. I could see the Hopkinsville Purples being swapped out for a Widow Pink Pearl Urethane, if not for a Reynosa Purple.

Chris Beans does have a good point in his latest video: If hardness is indeed a problem (as dictated by the PBA), then why are only the Purple Hammers being sin binned here, and not the Pitches, or anything else that now according to the PBA, is out of specifications?

Granted the PBA and the USBC are completely different organizations, but that does leave a lot of open-ended questions because one organization is doing something completely different than the other. If softness and specifications are the issue, then something needs to be addressed from whichever organization is higher and have that blanket apply.

Prime example: The Masters and the US Open are USBC events, not PBA events. Because of that, the PBA's 2-year rule wouldn't apply.

BL.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 05:45:14 PM by bradl »
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Bowler19525

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2022, 08:20:08 AM »
Quote from: avabob on March 07, 2022, 05:21:00 PM
Doesn't anyone have an effing Durometer anymore.  This is getting ridiculous.  If the ball is too soft you throw it out if not you don't go by manufacturing date.  Same with the PBA.  They went even more crazy outlawing all urethane more than 2 years old

They do have durometers, but the procedure for testing the balls is so convoluted there isn't enough time to check them all.  They take readings in 10 spots on the ball, add up the results, and determine the average hardness.  There is also an allowance for durometer error.  So as long as the average hardness is 68D or higher it passes.

Some of these PBA guys come rolling in with 20 balls.  Say there are 100 bowlers checking in, and each one has 2 urethane balls.  Guesstimate 5 minutes to check each ball with the durometer.  Now you are looking at 16 hours spent just checking those 200 urethane balls.  That is partly why the PBA was originally only checking before finals.  There simply was not enough time and resources to check during check-in.

USBC tournaments would be even longer since there are more people checking in before each squad.

The path of least resistance is to just exclude them from use.  Not that it solves the problem in its entirety, but it is the easiest solution to administer.  The intention of going by manufacturing date is to eliminate those alleged soft Kentucky Purple Hammers that may have been shipped out.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2022, 08:48:18 AM »
Like most USBC rules it is only relative at one tournament.

How many Eagles have been won with purple hammers? The Mcneil who crushed it for years on the left side at nationals wasn't using urethane to do it.

It is an easy solution to a non issue and requires no work on USBCs part. Same for the rule the PBA recently added.
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milorafferty

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2022, 09:50:53 AM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on March 08, 2022, 08:48:18 AM
Like most USBC rules it is only relative at one tournament.

How many Eagles have been won with purple hammers? The Mcneil who crushed it for years on the left side at nationals wasn't using urethane to do it.

It is an easy solution to a non issue and requires no work on USBCs part. Same for the rule the PBA recently added.

That is Chad's favorite kind of rule...
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bergman

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2022, 10:10:13 AM »
Avabob's solution is the best one. Perhaps it's too time consuming and labor intensive to resort to the durometer solution.

Welcome to the present day world where you now need a 2 tractor trailers just to haul all of the balls to a tournament.

You know,  sometimes the old-schoolers have the best solution to a problem. Avabob's is one of them.
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avabob

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2022, 10:44:47 AM »
The ironic thing is that softness is pretty much irrelevant.  I remember when resin first came out.  They called them cheater balls.  Funny thing.  A friend of mine had an old soft Shore D.  He brought it out and threw it next to a 75+ hardness Excaliber.  The resin ball out hit the Shore D by a huge margin.  Likewise any resin ball out hits a purple hammer.  The fact that a purple hammer out hits other urethane by a little has little to do with hardness
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milorafferty

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2022, 11:14:46 AM »
I think USBC does use a durameter for the Open Championships.

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avabob

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2022, 11:28:19 AM »
I thought so too.
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bowling4burgers

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2022, 11:59:11 AM »
Quote from: bergman on March 08, 2022, 10:10:13 AM
Avabob's solution is the best one. Perhaps it's too time consuming and labor intensive to resort to the durometer solution.

Welcome to the present day world where you now need a 2 tractor trailers just to haul all of the balls to a tournament.

You know,  sometimes the old-schoolers have the best solution to a problem. Avabob's is one of them.
Yeah this "bring 30 balls to the event" is out of hand. My opinion for what it's actually worth? We need more Petersens with random mystery patterns and a 2 ball limit.
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Luke Rosdahl

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2022, 01:27:02 PM »
No it's not irrelevant, the softer balls create a lot more reaction consistency, this is a big facet of the "illegal" purple hammers.  It has nothing to do with hit and everything to do with the consistency of the reaction, especially throughout transition.  Hit isn't a ball attribute, it's a matchup attribute, urethane can "out-hit" resin given the right situations.  If it was irrelevant, this wouldn't be a thing. 

Quote from: avabob on March 08, 2022, 10:44:47 AM
The ironic thing is that softness is pretty much irrelevant.  I remember when resin first came out.  They called them cheater balls.  Funny thing.  A friend of mine had an old soft Shore D.  He brought it out and threw it next to a 75+ hardness Excaliber.  The resin ball out hit the Shore D by a huge margin.  Likewise any resin ball out hits a purple hammer.  The fact that a purple hammer out hits other urethane by a little has little to do with hardness
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ignitebowling

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2022, 02:04:39 PM »
Quote from: Luke Rosdahl on March 08, 2022, 01:27:02 PM
No it's not irrelevant, the softer balls create a lot more reaction consistency, this is a big facet of the "illegal" purple hammers.  It has nothing to do with hit and everything to do with the consistency of the reaction, especially throughout transition.  Hit isn't a ball attribute, it's a matchup attribute, urethane can "out-hit" resin given the right situations.  If it was irrelevant, this wouldn't be a thing. 

Quote from: avabob on March 08, 2022, 10:44:47 AM
The ironic thing is that softness is pretty much irrelevant.  I remember when resin first came out.  They called them cheater balls.  Funny thing.  A friend of mine had an old soft Shore D.  He brought it out and threw it next to a 75+ hardness Excaliber.  The resin ball out hit the Shore D by a huge margin.  Likewise any resin ball out hits a purple hammer.  The fact that a purple hammer out hits other urethane by a little has little to do with hardness

What happens when urethane less then two years old is still winning tournaments on the pba tour and certain players still complain?
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avabob

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2022, 02:40:01 PM »
Or what happens when new purple hammers are still beating the other urethane.  Urethane is what it is.  Purple hammer is marginally better for me than other urethane I have thrown but it is still urethane with all of the issues.  The super high rev guys can use it longer but they still run into issues. 
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bradl

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Re: Here we go-USBC bans 2016-2017 purple hammers from the Open.
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2022, 02:50:50 PM »

The ambiguous words here that are causing confusion are "national tournaments". Does this only mean the USBC Open Championships? Or is this to mean all USBC national tournaments?

That's why I brought up the US Open and the Masters. If it is only the USBC Open, then picture the complaining when a non-PBA member registers for the Masters (I'll use it as the example since it is coming up in 2 weeks), and according to the assumption that the banning is only for the USBC Open Championships, will be able to use a 2016/2017 Purple Hammer, while the PBA member will be subject to the rolling 2-year rule, and gets beat by the non-PBA member.

To make it worse, if the ban is only for the USBC Open Championships, will the PBA member be able to use the 2016/2017 Purple Hammers because this is a USBC tournament whose title is recognized by the PBA? That would then circumvent the rolling 2-year rule.

There is major ambiguity here that needs to be clarified.

BL.
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