Post by: Neptune66 on January 23, 2011, 11:15:58 PM
Am an experienced bowler, and have my share of successes, but am very inconsistent at times. While I feel its mostly mental, many good bowlers are constanatly telling me that I do not roll the ball, but merely throw it out onto the lane.
It FEELS as if I am rolling it, but lets assume for this conversation that they are right and that I do NOT roll the ball. What part of the delivery is most responsible for placing a roll on the ball or creating revs (if its the same thing)? Maybe its more of a "when" vs a "what" and I am just trying to add rotation to the ball at the wrong point in my delivery?
I'm not expecting anyone to be able to FIX me in this forum without the benefit of videos, etc... Just interested in possibly identifying a certain point or motion of my delivery that I can concentrate on to try to add more revs... or add them with more consistency and less concious energy having to be focused on the task.
Thanks in advance for any advice/thoughts/feedback.
Edited by Neptune66 on 1/24/2011 at 8:17 AM
Edited by Neptune66 on 1/24/2011 at 10:41 AM
Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2011, 09:14:58 AM
That said, imo it is about letting the ball do the work. Go practice next time and concentrate on watching how your ball reads the lanes. Roll the ball smooth and slow a few times and see if you notice a difference and try to figure it out from there.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
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WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: BowlingWolf on January 24, 2011, 09:34:13 AM
A couple of suggestions.
1-Timing:
If you have a 5 step approach, try to push the ball at the same time as your second step begins.
If you take 4 steps to the line, push the ball and walk at the same exact time (this is a good way to correct early/late timing, which without having the benefit of knowing what you look like while executing a bowling shot, is impossible to say what your discrepancy might be).
2- Focus and cadence
Keep your eyes on your target as you approach the line, and make sure your steps are not too fast nor too slow and are always repeated the same once you have a good "feel"--and as you are nearing the foul line, get low with your legs (do not overlean with your upper body).
3- Delivery
As your slide foot hits the line, keep your eyes fixed on your target (this cannot be emphasized enough), make sure your sliding knee is bent AND balanced, and follow through with the hand AT/TOWARD your target FLAT with the lane (chase the ball with the hand), all the while WATCHING the ball cross your intended path, while saying BALANCED (not getting up) until the ball is near the pins.
There are so many nuances to the game of bowling, but the above 3 cues are all vital to a sound fundamental game, regardless of one's style.
Good luck.
"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow that runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset."
—Chief Isapwo Muksika Crowfoot's last whisper
Post by: Neptune66 on January 24, 2011, 09:40:19 AM
That makes sense. I do tend to throw (there's that word again!) hard. Even as I have aged (in mid-fifties) and slowed down somewhat naturally, I still have a rather violent or harsh release. And lately have been bowling on very dry lanes, which only encourages more of the same.
Sometimes.... after I am thoroughly exhausted, I will start to just casually let the ball roll off my hand and actually start to resemble someone with more revs. But by that time I am too worn out to really aim well and my heart isn't in it. Trying a nice and easy release from the very beginning might help---at least until I get frustrated and start heaving it again.
But thanks for the suggestion... I will try to use a more fluid motion next time out and see what happens.
Post by: Neptune66 on January 24, 2011, 09:50:18 AM
My previous reply was to "Complete Bowler" as I hadn't yet seen "Bowling Wolf's post. (Just mentioning in case it seemed I wasn't reading the same thing everyone else was.)
I do think that the 2nd item (Cadence) mentioned by Bowling Wolf may be my biggest issue. I sometimes start out slow, but always tend to accelerate during the games. Might just be ball speed sometimes, but other times its everything.
If I start off bowling well, I am much better at maintaining a controlled relaxed delivery, which in turn helps me to maintain better accuracy, attitude, etc., etc... When I run into trouble with the results, I then have a tendency to speed up everything.... not even just the delivery, but in my anxiousness to get to the approach and take my next shot. And even though I am well aware in the midst of this bad behavior that i am digging a further hole, it is difficult to break the habit.
Post by: MrPerfect on January 24, 2011, 10:04:51 AM
My favorite drill for teaching someone to roll the ball is to do the one step release drill.
Basically what you will do is stand at the foul line with a ball at your side. Take on big step back from the foul line to allow you to slide. Then once in position you start the swing by pulling the ball backwards and just let the ball swing by your side, and on the 3rd swing slide and follow through. Bowl a few games like this and slowly build your swing back up by moving farther and farther back on the approach and introducing a step with each move backwards. Always start the ball backwards though why doing the drill because it'll promote you not using so much muscle in the swing.
Also, I highly recommend putting white tape from the top of your fingers down to your pap as if you were going to measure your rev rate so that you can see the ball rolling.
Good luck, and if you can videos always help.
Post by: Neptune66 on January 24, 2011, 10:35:10 AM
Just occured to me as I was reading your post. Backswing. I have very little.
That started several years ago when I was bowling on heavily oiled lanes and even then people were telling me to slow down. What I did was reduced my backswing and basically tried to spin the ball as I was releasing it. Every now and then I try to increase my backswing, but accuracy tends to diminish and I end up abandoning the experiment in short order.
But maybe I can try what you are suggesting and concentrate on increasing the back swing in that process as well.
Thanks.
Edited by Neptune66 on 1/24/2011 at 11:35 AM
Post by: dizzyfugu on January 25, 2011, 02:04:02 AM
Totally agree on timing - that's IMHO the most important issue to create good leverage and a smooth, powerful and yet effortless release.
Other things to consider are your knee bend and your upper body posture. Without a good knee bend, you will instinctively bend forward upon the release, which shifts the release point forward, resulting in an upward direction of the ball upon release which kills revs and also has the tendency to make you come around the ball with your hand instead of staying behind and lifting.
A similar effect occurs when you do not keep your upper body up. While some players can compensate with an open shoulder and muscle, the bent upper body bears like a stiff knee the danger of a poor release point.
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
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Post by: 700Virgin on January 25, 2011, 05:09:46 AM
I too have found myself throwing vs rolling. When I find myself doing it I think of a couple things. 1) Am I gripping the ball too hard trying to force a shot. Relaxing my hand is usually the only thing I need to change. 2) If that doesn't work, I think back to the lesson I got from Mike Janasau (I apologize if I spelled it wrong) at Nationals, when he said I was trying to 'muscle' my shots. Let the ball fall freely when you push off and you will create more than enough backswing and you won't need to force it.
Post by: BowlingWolf on January 25, 2011, 05:07:13 PM
One of the best bowlers I know (Dan Schriner, Member ID # 1574-385 on www.bowl.com) also happens to have THE shortest backswing I've ever seen, yet he throws it (ROLLS it, that is) absolutely awesome.
So, the short backswing may not necessarily be the problem, as it certainly it is not true that it is always a defective way to bowl.
"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow that runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset."
—Chief Isapwo Muksika Crowfoot's last whisper
Edited by BowlingWolf on 1/25/2011 at 6:07 PM
Post by: gparks on January 25, 2011, 05:44:02 PM
since i was a kid i was always told if you dont start right,you wont finish right.i seen one guy mention push off above.i think its the most important step .a crooked push off is gonna make your backswing go one way or another forcing you to "muscle" your way back strait.also it helps me to think about keeping my arm as tight to my torso through out the whole swing,keeps me from "chicken wingin it" which also promotes muscleing the ball.and as said above timing is very important.there are soo many variables,and not one way or another is truly "textbook" i bowl with some guys that break the mold of the "textbook guide to bowling" that kick my butt week in and week out.there is no ryhme or reason to it. at the end of the day a coach would be the way to go,or flip a video out on here and the guys would be able to help out more. good luck to you and keep us posted on your progress:)
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Post by: Pat Patterson on January 25, 2011, 07:24:17 PM
Professional bowler Dana Miller-Mackie once told me to think of or actually to use a grapefruit and rolling it to simulate a rolling action to keep from launching the ball out onto the lane.
Also, Fred Borden once told me in a Lane Masters seminar to "Roll" the ball on oil, "Bowl" the ball on your Normal Pattern and to "Throw" the ball on the drier conditions.
Maybe this will help...........
Pat Patterson
Post by: Neptune66 on January 25, 2011, 08:33:32 PM
Am taking everything in and hoping I will remember some of the suggestions here tomorrow (Wednesday) night and Thursday night. The Wednesday league is not only medium ---at least---oil, but after the first game the carrydown is a problem. And the backends ....well there is no backend in that house.
The Thursday conditions start as medium to light oil, and get drier as the evening progresses. Even when the oil is fresh (or semi-fresh, as there is a mixed league ahead of us), it calls for more "throwing" after awhile.
On Wednesdays, I need to learn to roll more so my ball will actually have some traction. On Thursdays, I need to learn to roll enough so that my delivery is more fluid and I'm not sacrificing accuracy in my efforts to get the ball farther down the lane. I am fully capable of providing enough speed. But last Thursday, the lanes were so dry that I was probably rolling it even less than the normal minimal amount even for me.
In the long run...maybe a good thing, as it kind of "exposed" or magnfied a flaw in my delivery that normally is masked by my matching up pretty decently with the dry conditions. In other words... even if on the dry lanes, SOME roll is needed and I think I was about as close to having none at all last week as you could be.
Anyway... thank you for all the suggestions/ideas.
I will see what happens and try to post back here with an honest evaluation of how I do the next couple nights.
Post by: completebowler on January 25, 2011, 10:24:44 PM
Rolling the ball more will help you on both wet AND dry conditions. On oil it will help you get the ball to read better and increase hook/roll to the pocket. On dry it will allow you to step left, which often times for me allows me to get my feet deeper than others and play the oil in the heads and bouncing off their burned up spot creating quite a bit of recovery room.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Neptune66 on January 28, 2011, 06:45:20 PM
Just posting a sort of update.
Wednesday night was a disaster. Not because the suggestions I saw here didn't work, but because for some reason I did not apply them....any of them. Something about that house and that oil shot that gives me a negative attitude very early on.
Thursday, however, started with me getting to the center early enough to bowl some real practice for a few games. Not just the handful of shots in league practice. And someone noticed I was dropping my shoulder. They didn't use that terminology, and I am about as stubborn and uncoachable as can be. But I tried to keep my shoulder from dipping, and suddenly I had more power and better control. It was like magic.
Not because I had never bowled that way before. But was the kind of sensation when you have waited a very long time to replace the brake linings on your car, and you instantly realize (after they are fixed) just how far gone they were before the repair.
I didn't apply that much more roll, but I did slow down somewhat and concentrate on trying to let the ball roll off my hand instead of muscling it ont the lane. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't textbook, but there were situations where I was the most surprised person in the house at how many revs I had put on the ball. ----Then again... this was at the house that is usually relatively easy for me.
Next wednesday will be more of a test. But last night was a major improvement from last few weeks.
Post by: JohnP on January 29, 2011, 06:17:28 PM
There are several Norm Duke instructional videos on YouTube. One of them is on rolling the ball, he uses a drill with the bowler down on one knee, sliding the ball until the release point. Do a search and see if you can find it, it might help you. -- JohnP
Post by: Neptune66 on January 30, 2011, 09:29:46 AM
I watched it and another one about rotation and even though I have heard it described before, was impressed with the point about not putting any force behind the ball until just before its released. In other words, I am pushing the ball much earlier in my swing than necessary. According to the Norm Duke video, I should let the ball drop naturally and then just accelerate my arm swing as I am releasing it.
Ironically... this is what happens by accident when I occasionally am dropping or losing the ball while delivering it. Timing is off and thumb comes out too soon and while I am delivering the ball onto the lane, it's falling off my hand. It's not my normal or planned delivery and sometimes it happens to such a degree that I am completely dropping it or sending it into the gutter. But other times, despite not liking the feeling of losing control of the ball prematurely it actually comes off my hand with more rotation than normal and rolls into the pocket for a nice soild strike ---despite my insisting to my teammates that it was a mistake.
And yesterday, I ----before seeing your post--- my friend even made the observation after one of those "accidental" dropping ball strikes, that maybe my thumb is staying in the ball too long on my "on-purpose" deliveries.
Anyway....something for me to look into.
Thank you!
Edited by Neptune66 on 1/30/2011 at 10:31 AM
Post by: Juggernaut on January 30, 2011, 10:30:36 AM
Rolling VS Throwing to me sounds like a match between the old school bowlers Marshall Holman and Mark Roth.
Marshall Holman had one of the rolliest releases I can think of, while Roth had a "grip it and rip it" method that produced power from lofting it with lots of sideroll.
Go to youtube and search for the 1978 Quaker State tournament. They faced each other in the championship match.
Nevermind. Here are the links so you don't have to look for them:
"Yeah, I throw AMF. What's it to ya"? 
Post by: Neptune66 on January 30, 2011, 03:17:44 PM
I'm pretty sure I'm not squeezing the ball... at least not most of the time. But my thumb tends to shrink a little after starting a match, and knowing this I am sometimes slow to add tape to the thumbhole, and this causes me to have a slightly tighter grip on the ball. It's not something that happens a lot.
But when it does happen, it's usually cause I am so busy concentrating on a certain aspect of my delivery (like how much loft to use ---if any---, or walking straight, or how much lift to impart on the ball) that I completely relax my hand when it hasn't yet passed a certain point in the swing.
However.... I have never viewed my delivery on video. Frankly... am scared to see how awkward I might appear. Some day... I may get over that hang-up and take a look, but for now I would rather FEEL that I look like I am a pro when throwing the ball, then see how dorky my delivery really is.
I did go to my favorite house today and one conclusion I have finally reached ---and it's been pointed out in other posts in this forum many times---is that I am going to move my practice sessions to the house where I have more difficulty instead of having them at the "good" house.
First of all, are the reasons given my other posters...that practicing a shot I am already realtively proficient at is not as beneficial as practicing on the tougher one. But another factor is that I know so many people at what is the easier house for me, that it is nearly impossible for me to come in and work on something without some person ---be they relatively close friend or just an aquaitance---from coming up to me and being anywhere from social to trying to HELP me. I learn better when I can experiment on my own....usually.
Anyway... from this point forward, I intend to practice at a house where I am relatively invisible, and where the shot is not my favorite one.
Post by: Dan Belcher on January 30, 2011, 03:25:42 PM
In my opinion, there is no better coaching tool than video. Seeing what you are actually doing versus what you feel like you are doing will tell you a lot. What feels to me like a straight pushaway, for example, is actually several inches to the right. My body just doesn't know any better. Therefore, I have to compensate and feel like I'm pushing the ball left to get it properly in line for most shots. I would never have realized this without watching video of myself bowling. And working with a good coach who uses video is INCREDIBLY helpful. The time I spent working with Mike Jasnau in Reno last year at Nationals was well-spent, and the DVD I got of the coaching session helps me whenever I lapse into bad habits.
Also, if you liked those Norm Duke instruction videos you saw on Youtube, I really do recommend his coaching DVD. Yeah, it's something like $39, but it's a good investment in my opinion. If you win just one jackpot in league because of it, you've already more than paid for it! The guy is a great teacher. I'd love to get a chance to work one on one with him someday. But until then, the DVD is still damn helpful.