BallReviews

General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: morpheus on February 17, 2016, 06:02:32 PM

Title: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: morpheus on February 17, 2016, 06:02:32 PM
This seems to be stirring some conversation on social media...not saying I agree with all these points but I respect his perspective.

https://www.11thframe.com/news/article/8199
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Gene J Kanak on February 17, 2016, 06:40:35 PM
I think that both Voss and Murphy make worthwhile statements within their respective responses. I guess while part of me, like BV, longs for what bowling was like when I first started, where a 200 average was considered good, and people all crowded around to watch someone go for 300/800 because it just wasn't something that happened all that often, I'm not about digging in my heels. I believe that things adapt over time, and we must adapt with them. To me, the best bowlers are still the best bowlers. The two-handers out there winning tournaments are the ones who can execute shots. If winning were as simple as switching, everyone would do it. In the end, I don't know that there is much to take from this. People will dig their heels in on one side and trash the other, and we're likely to continue with this stalemate, which accomplishes very little.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: ThomasBowling on February 17, 2016, 06:55:42 PM
I'll never agree with someone who say 2 handers are cancer to the sport.
Nah they're not, they're attracting young people to the sport. The sport needs young people. Those people might get friends to join the bowling club they're in.

And as the USBC Masters show, it's very possible for us 1 handers to beat the 2 handers. Belmo didn't make it passed the qualifying rounds.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Juggernaut on February 17, 2016, 06:56:04 PM
 What happened was bowling lost its identity, and didnt know which way to turn, or what it wanted to be. When that happened, the floodgates were opened for all manner of changes to the sport, because there was nobody left to agree to say "NO" to anything that came along.

Traditionalists (I am one) wanted the sport to stay truer to its roots. Keep the game as simple as possible to play, limiting the technological advances to a minimum, and create and enforce rules of play designed to keep the sport simple to play, yet hard to master.

 What we got was a "free for all" because the leadership we had at the time was asleep at the wheel. Too many changes came along too quickly, and there was nobody left to say "Were not doing that, because it isnt good for the sport in the long run". Instead, and probably because of financial greed, anything that came along was deemed OK for bowling, and looked on as an improvement.

 Many of the things werent really improvements though. Change for improvement is one thing, but change simply for the sake of change is not improvement, its your leadership being financially coerced into allowing the people with deep pockets to instill anything beneficial for them into the sport, whether its good for the sport or not.

 The two handed thing is different. Mark Roth changed bowling forever, but not with technology. He used a superior athletic ability and style to create power that most did not have, and was able to use it to dominate, at least until that style became prevalent. I look at the two handers the same way. They have a style and ability that allows them to create more power than others. It may create a paradigm shift in who is considered "good" and who isnt, but at least they are a NATURAL progression, and not an artificially created "technological" one.

 Technology should've been granted a much more limited access to the arena, but to try to limit a players PHYSICAL ability is wrong. Mark Roth dominated because he could do something special and different with his own abilities. He changed the game forever with raw physical ability, and THAT is how sports should advance and change, not through artificial, technological means.

 Two handers? I say leave them alone and let them play. They have a special physical ability that SHOULD be dominant. You want to compete with it, then either get as good as you possibly can one handed and take your chances, or learn the two handed style yourself.

 Technology is artificial and should've been banned, or at least somewhat limited. Physical ability is NOT artificial, and should NEVER be banned, OR limited. The sport should ALWAYS progress along natural lines. Its slower that way, but better for the sport IN THE LONG RUN!
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: morpheus on February 17, 2016, 06:57:36 PM
Again, I don't agree with all of the points made, but at least Voss is trying to get people discussing the issues. The problem with Mr. Murphy's "future" is that it pales in comparison to the past and he seems to completely dismiss anyone that has an alternate point of view. I am admittedly not a fan of Mr. Murphy, but his response seems to have a very condescending tone and I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Juggernaut on February 17, 2016, 07:01:00 PM
Again, I don't agree with all of the points made, but at least Voss is trying to get people discussing the issues. The problem with Mr. Murphy's "future" is that it pales in comparison to the past and he seems to completely dismiss anyone that has an alternate point of view. I am admittedly not a fan of Mr. Murphy, but his response seems to have a very condescending tone and I'll leave it at that.

 I wondered if I was the only one who thought that.................
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: DP3 on February 17, 2016, 07:18:30 PM
All of these guys with all of these "GRAND IDEAS TO FIX THE GAME" are completely neglecting the equipment side of the industry which employs tens of thousands of hardworking Americans.

These grand plans will eventually put 90+% of the workers employed by the ball companies and pro shops. Everytime something like this comes up it's ridiculous to me/. Now if you want to mandate those rules for your own competitive bowling tour to showcase "proper bowling" then what's stopping you from starting it? Oh yeah, cause you don't really want change, you just want to complain about how these "millennials know nothing about the good ole days".
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: trash heap on February 17, 2016, 07:21:46 PM
Hate to use a comparison to another sport but here it goes:

What is the main reason that Major League Baseball prohibit the use of metal bats?

 

Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: xrayjay on February 17, 2016, 07:27:02 PM
two handed delivery? how can this be physically possible?
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: ThomasBowling on February 17, 2016, 07:33:53 PM
two handed delivery? how can this be physically possible?

It's not really 2 handed delivery, it's still 1 handed on the delivery part.
Right when the 2 handers is about to rev the ball they move the supporting hand away.
They use an extra hand to support the ball until it's at the part of the swing where you're supposed to rev the ball to get the best hook.

If they'd use the supporting hand to create extra rev with that too, then they'd break the fingers that are in the ball :P
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: kidlost2000 on February 17, 2016, 08:27:05 PM
Read the article and I think Brian Voss has a great idea for completely killing bowling. I think it is nothing short of insanely awful.

All these people and their brilliant ideas for saving bowling really seem to miss something similar to one of my local bowling centers. Have a local bowling alley that thinks it is only required to open the doors and bowlers should fill the place and that is all that is required.

Never read much about people trying to talk with friends or co-workers into going bowling for fun, or joining a league together. Maybe having a work league. League bowlers in a lot of ways are dicks to the rest of the population when it comes to bowling. They typically do nothing to try and bring more bowlers in, only complain and gripe about others that are bowling for any number of reasons.

Can't imagine why this along with other factors out dated in bowling would drive people away. Adapt and change to stay current or get left behind. Bowling in many ways is getting left behind.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: bcw1969 on February 17, 2016, 09:44:02 PM
I appreciated what Voss had to say. Although I disagree about the 2 handers and thumbless--have no problem with it. I recall years ago when I was in the YABA , it was in the national rules about having to deliver a ball with the thumb in it..maybe now that we have the usbc governing everything, maybe that rule is no longer in effect?

It would seem that many people think that bowling has come too far one way, to now all of a sudden backtrack in equipment and oiling etc. ....but one thing bowling could do is address the pins.  Over this past new years weekend I bowled in a couple events in my state one day. One was a lumberjack event, where they were using heavier pins--5 pounds I believe--they put out just a house shot for the event--I had never done this type of event before and it was tough, strikes were really hard to come by. Actually the day before I went there...Walter Ray Williams Jr. tried a couple squads in this tournament.. it was 2 games ...and his best 2 game block he only averaged about 190 or so.  Maybe not 5 pounders, but I believe that would be a way to bring the scoring and "competitive" environment back to where it used to be without messing with the modern equipment and oils/oiling patterns.

Brad
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: guysensei1 on February 17, 2016, 10:16:51 PM
two handed delivery? how can this be physically possible?
https://youtu.be/vOij1prDhmI
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: northface28 on February 17, 2016, 10:44:03 PM
All of these guys with all of these "GRAND IDEAS TO FIX THE GAME" are completely neglecting the equipment side of the industry which employs tens of thousands of hardworking Americans.

These grand plans will eventually put 90+% of the workers employed by the ball companies and pro shops. Everytime something like this comes up it's ridiculous to me/. Now if you want to mandate those rules for your own competitive bowling tour to showcase "proper bowling" then what's stopping you from starting it? Oh yeah, cause you don't really want change, you just want to complain about how these "millennials know nothing about the good ole days".

Exactly, just another old time stuck in the glory days. Its really sad actually to see BV old and bitter and longing for something that is totally ridiculous. Funny how guys complain about this "powerful equipment" but have bags full of these "cheater balls". Voss is a cry baby, has been for awhile, but since he is revered by a lot of old farts, his points are "valid".
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: xrayjay on February 17, 2016, 11:49:53 PM
The Bottom line is......... hook really does sells. And bowling can't go backwards permanently with rubber balls and white dots. BV and Machuga really do love their sport, but what can they do? Nothing, but voice their opinion.

Well, I guess continue to have their "no two handed" bowlers allowed tourney.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Ken De Beasto on February 18, 2016, 03:13:40 AM
Two hands on the bowling ball. Others one hand in a bowling ball and the other hand holding a pitchfork
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: kidlost2000 on February 18, 2016, 07:04:22 AM
What is interesting is Voss won a title for 12 straight seasons from 1987 to 1998. I don't recall at that time hearing how bad this equipment was when he was winning.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Phoneman on February 18, 2016, 07:06:35 AM
he sounds like a bitter old guy who cant compete anymore.  The game has passed him up and he wants it to go back to the "old ways".  Adapt or get out of the way.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: HankScorpio on February 18, 2016, 07:10:36 AM
I just can't understand or support the argument that everybody should bowl the exact same way. When does that happen in any other sport ? Heck, when does that happen in any facet of life? Innovation and progression are two traits that make us human.

The only sports I can think of where individuality is banned are sports judged by form (equestrian, gymnastics, etc). Boy I hope bowling doesn't turn into that.

As for fundamentals, i wonder what Mr. Voss considers to be fundamental.  If I was teaching a new bowler to bowl, above all else, I'd want that bowler to have their head over the ball, rhythmic step cadence, straight swing path, knee continuation, and a release with no squeeze. Those are fundamental to being a good bowler - nearly every high level bowler does those things. That includes two handers.

While I don't agree with Mr. Voss there, I do agree that the other issues he attempts to fix are the issues that really plague bowling.  1. There is no "allure" to bowling because normal joes can't see a difference between pros and 180 average house hacks - their scores look the same. 2. The up front cost of really getting into the sport is prohibitive, due to the number of balls needed to reasonably be able to compete.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: DrBob806 on February 18, 2016, 07:17:52 AM
Two hands on the bowling ball. Others one hand in a bowling ball and the other hand holding a pitchfork

That's funny!

Anyhow, I'm one of these "old fogies," and also presently coach a high school bowling team. I started bowling in 6th grade (1974), so I've witnessed quite a few changes along the way.

Bowlers are enticed by both power and shot making. It's really that simple. While most bowlers truly do appreciate shot makers of yesteryear and today, it's the power that seems to have the "wow factor,"  and attracts viewers and obviously opinions/chatter about bowling. IMHO, that is good for the game.

Jason Belmonte brought a different style to the sport, and it's being copied. It's luring in youth, something bowling needs. Without a youth feeder program, there's very little in adult bowling down the road.

Yes, mistakes have been made in the past regarding the ABC, WIBC, PBA, USBC, & BPAA. We/they need to move on and promote the game.




Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: trash heap on February 18, 2016, 07:21:12 AM
The Bottom line is......... hook really does sells. And bowling can't go backwards permanently with rubber balls and white dots. BV and Machuga really do love their sport, but what can they do? Nothing, but voice their opinion.

Well, I guess continue to have their "no two handed" bowlers allowed tourney.


I agree, but all this new tech has come at a big price. And I mean it literally. Try to look at this sport from a young kid's perspective. Bowling is not cheap.
 

Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: kidlost2000 on February 18, 2016, 07:35:41 AM
Bowling isn't expensive compared to other sports.

Look at the cost of a baseball bat, glove, bag and cleats.

Basketball shoes alone can run you a lot of money.

Golf same way, Clubs, bag, shoes, accessories.

Any sport you can spend as little or as much as you want. You could bowl your entire life with out a high performance bowling ball and be successful. You buy it because you believe it has to make a DIFFerence.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Cornerpin on February 18, 2016, 07:38:23 AM
I'm sure there were purists who complained when fingertip drilling was introduced and polyester balls were developed back in the day.  His ideas are antiquated and make him sound like a whiner because the game has passed him by and his game is just not as relevant anymore.  I understand these are just his thoughts on how the game could be improved but in reality, there is no going back.  You don't hear about the PGA trying to eliminate metal woods and limiting how far a ball flies so players with less clubhead speed can better compete.  As the famous quote goes "Adapt or die..."
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: trash heap on February 18, 2016, 09:02:42 AM
Bowling isn't expensive compared to other sports.

Look at the cost of a baseball bat, glove, bag and cleats.

Basketball shoes alone can run you a lot of money.

Golf same way, Clubs, bag, shoes, accessories.

Any sport you can spend as little or as much as you want. You could bowl your entire life with out a high performance bowling ball and be successful. You buy it because you believe it has to make a DIFFerence.

One thing all these sports have over bowling. You can practice without any cost. Golf might have a little bit of cost (driving range), but no where near as much as bowling.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: JustRico on February 18, 2016, 09:54:38 AM
Why does everyone that either feels jilted or as if bowling owes them believes that bowling needs to be fixed
The game is not broken
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Gene J Kanak on February 18, 2016, 10:06:28 AM
I would be fine with Voss' stance on bowling balls. If you want to say all that we can throw is pancake-core plastics, let's do it; however, I can't get behind the idea of telling people that they have to use a thumb. Personally, I think that a bowler should be able to deliver the ball any way he or she wants from frame to frame. If I'm RH, and I have the ability to switch to LH to pick up the 10-pin or because the shot looks better on the left side, why shouldn't I be allowed to do so? Doing so is a talent, not a means of cheating. They allow switch hitting in baseball. Golfers, on rare occasion, hit chip and punch-out shots backwards if there is an obstruction blocking their normal stance. Again, you still have to make shots. Too many people seem to think that you automatically gain 20 pins in average the second you take your thumb out of the ball.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: txbowler on February 18, 2016, 10:28:06 AM
Here's the issue I see:

There are too many variables to control.  There is a bowler on the tour from Houston, Shawn Maldonaldo.   He uses a 2 handed delivery like Belmo, however, his thumb is in the ball (ALWAYS).    He just gets the revs and power from that release style. 

You have other pros talking on the tour about 2 handers that can flip the ball around by using loose finger inserts.  Thus creating a totally different drill (maybe illegal) on the same ball that might outscore everyone else on a given pattern.

Well, when you are sitting in a rules committee trying to figure out a way to write rules, here is the challenge:

WRITE THE RULE TO STOP TO CHEATERS, WITHOUT INADVERTENTLY STOPPING SOMETHING TOTALLY LEGAL.

It's a lot harder than it sounds.  And unless the committee members have devious minds, they will not think of the ways bowlers will find loopholes.

That's the challenge.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: milorafferty on February 18, 2016, 10:49:54 AM
Until they figure out a way to stop the "average management"(otherwise known as sandbagging) everything else is irrelevant.

Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: HankScorpio on February 18, 2016, 10:57:28 AM
Bowling isn't expensive compared to other sports.

Look at the cost of a baseball bat, glove, bag and cleats.

Basketball shoes alone can run you a lot of money.

Golf same way, Clubs, bag, shoes, accessories.

Any sport you can spend as little or as much as you want. You could bowl your entire life with out a high performance bowling ball and be successful. You buy it because you believe it has to make a DIFFerence.

With the exception of golf, which is also very expensive, you can't tell me a bat, glove, cleats, etc. costs just as much as the arsenal of bowling balls you need to compete on various conditions. I'm not talking a once a week league, I mean actually compete.

We have a pretty good summer sport league here, but if you ask the people that don't bowl, one of the key reasons they choose not to bowl is that they only have 1- 2 balls and don't want to buy more. Cost IS a factor, regardless of what you want to compare it to.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: kidlost2000 on February 18, 2016, 11:27:51 AM
Bowling isn't expensive compared to other sports.

Look at the cost of a baseball bat, glove, bag and cleats.

Basketball shoes alone can run you a lot of money.

Golf same way, Clubs, bag, shoes, accessories.

Any sport you can spend as little or as much as you want. You could bowl your entire life with out a high performance bowling ball and be successful. You buy it because you believe it has to make a DIFFerence.

With the exception of golf, which is also very expensive, you can't tell me a bat, glove, cleats, etc. costs just as much as the arsenal of bowling balls you need to compete on various conditions. I'm not talking a once a week league, I mean actually compete.

We have a pretty good summer sport league here, but if you ask the people that don't bowl, one of the key reasons they choose not to bowl is that they only have 1- 2 balls and don't want to buy more. Cost IS a factor, regardless of what you want to compare it to.

Yes I can tell you those things can be just as expensive. You can spend as little or as much as you want for any sport or hobby. We are not talking about walmart gear. $200 plus for a bat, $150 plus for a glove, $100 plus for cleats, a bag, a helmet, batting gloves etc.

Cost to play vs cost to go pro is a huge difference. Bowlers are conditioned to over invest in equipment vs working with less. Most can easily compete with a hand full of bowling balls and making surface adjustments, but would much rather cycle through 10 bowling balls till they get lucky with one for the condition they are on.......and that is bowling on a THS.

10 bowlingballs, with different layouts and surface to compete in a summer sport league is proof that manufactures own bowlers.

I typically drill way more bowling balls then needed and guess what I've learned? They aren't different. The hype is just that, hype. I can take a few bowling balls I really like and adjust surface as needed and go any where and bowl and feel I can compete. The "pattern" isn't an issue, the lack of bowlers understanding how to see ball reaction and adjust is. Keep playing the line you see on  youtube or read posted online with every ball you have till one maybe works vs adjusting to what you see on the lanes.

Buy the hype and over complicate things. It is fun to watch. You see it every tournament, and every league night.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: bcw1969 on February 18, 2016, 11:51:11 AM
This past summer I bowled in a few local events in my area. I was on the pba wolf pattern for one tourney, and the 45 foot  mexico city pattern just to name a couple of them.  There is no way you can use the same ball(s) on either patterns and be successful on both--I don't see it---so one does need more than just a couple of balls.

Brad
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Bowler19525 on February 18, 2016, 11:59:13 AM
...
I typically drill way more bowling balls then needed and guess what I've learned? They aren't different. The hype is just that, hype. I can take a few bowling balls I really like and adjust surface as needed and go any where and bowl and feel I can compete. The "pattern" isn't an issue, the lack of bowlers understanding how to see ball reaction and adjust is. Keep playing the line you see on  youtube or read posted online with every ball you have till one maybe works vs adjusting to what you see on the lanes.

Buy the hype and over complicate things. It is fun to watch. You see it every tournament, and every league night.

This is absolutely true.  Most house bowlers who spend 99% of their bowling career bowling on a THS could easily succeed using nothing more than Storm Tropical Breezes, Ebonite Cyclones, Radical Raves, Radical Rave Ons, Columbia Deep Freezes, etc. 

I have way more bowling balls than I really need, but at the end of the day end up with the mid to lower performance balls in my bag.  They are more than sufficient for my THS leagues and tournaments.  My high end stuff just ends up sitting on the ball rack in the basement as they end up being more detrimental than beneficial.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: kidlost2000 on February 18, 2016, 12:21:08 PM
This past summer I bowled in a few local events in my area. I was on the pba wolf pattern for one tourney, and the 45 foot  mexico city pattern just to name a couple of them.  There is no way you can use the same ball(s) on either patterns and be successful on both--I don't see it---so one does need more than just a couple of balls.

Brad

What did you use on these different patterns?  How many different surfaces do you normal take with your arsenal?
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: bcw1969 on February 18, 2016, 03:01:02 PM
I do not remember the specific balls I brought with me to some of the events I did then.  I mentioned the 2 patterns I did because they play like night and day. The more aggressive equipment that would serve one well on the 45 foot 25.5 volume of the Mexico city oil pattern would not be as useful on the 32 foot wolf pattern--and vice versa, what one might use on the wolf, would most likely be very ineffective on something like the mexico city pattern.

Brad
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: charlest on February 18, 2016, 03:15:33 PM
Bowling doesn't need fixing. It needs an iron lung or resuscitation paddles.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BowlingforSoup on February 18, 2016, 04:15:32 PM
It needs a buttermilk enema!
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: morpheus on February 18, 2016, 05:28:08 PM
I find it odd that every time someone at the USBC talks about how great bowling is doing, it's about how many entries they had at junior gold and how high school and college bowling is at an all time high...but youth membership is at an all time low. Not to mention we have gone from 10 million sanctioned members to just over 1 million currently. Help me understand why everyone is standing in line to congratulate Mr. Murphy because he's got it all figured out?
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: SG17 on February 18, 2016, 06:42:20 PM

Yes I can tell you those things can be just as expensive. You can spend as little or as much as you want for any sport or hobby. We are not talking about walmart gear. $200 plus for a bat, $150 plus for a glove, $100 plus for cleats, a bag, a helmet, batting gloves etc.

that is cheap for baseball or softball.  when I played mens slow pitch I had a team mate with at least 6 bats that when new had MSRPs over $300.   and cleats, you cant get away with just one pair hardly anymore because you could get assigned to a fieldturf facility or even the rare astroturf facility.

nearly any hobby can take as much money from you as you are willing to spend.

Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: kidlost2000 on February 18, 2016, 07:49:34 PM

Yes I can tell you those things can be just as expensive. You can spend as little or as much as you want for any sport or hobby. We are not talking about walmart gear. $200 plus for a bat, $150 plus for a glove, $100 plus for cleats, a bag, a helmet, batting gloves etc.

that is cheap for baseball or softball.  when I played mens slow pitch I had a team mate with at least 6 bats that when new had MSRPs over $300.   and cleats, you cant get away with just one pair hardly anymore because you could get assigned to a fieldturf facility or even the rare astroturf facility.

nearly any hobby can take as much money from you as you are willing to spend.



Exactly. You can spend as little or as much as you wish for any sport. This isn't the issue with general bowling and bowlers.

The bigger issues are length of league seasons, and bowlers not helping themselves with getting more bowlers to come bowl
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Bowlaholic on February 18, 2016, 07:53:27 PM
Morpheus,
You stated we went from 10 million to just over 1 million sanctioned bowlers.  Two years ago the number seemed to be 2.5 million.  Are you saying we lost another 1.5 million in this short period of time?  If so, at that rate two years from now there will perhaps be no sanctioned bowlers at all. WTH!!
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: morpheus on February 18, 2016, 10:24:08 PM
Morpheus,
You stated we went from 10 million to just over 1 million sanctioned bowlers.  Two years ago the number seemed to be 2.5 million.  Are you saying we lost another 1.5 million in this short period of time?  If so, at that rate two years from now there will perhaps be no sanctioned bowlers at all. WTH!!
You would think membership numbers would be readily available on the website...but not so much. I can't speak to numbers from earlier years and I encourage everyone to do their own research. As best as I can tell, membership numbers are not available anywhere online and the USBC never speaks about those numbers should tell you something about the lack of transparency.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: eg bagger on February 18, 2016, 11:20:15 PM
League bowlers in a lot of ways are dicks to the rest of the population when it comes to bowling. They typically do nothing to try and bring more bowlers in, only complain and gripe about others that are bowling for any number of reasons.


I just came here to quote this. I've seen league bowlers regularly abuse staff and other recreational bowlers at my home center, while I've certainly given honest opinions about the condition of the approach to the kid that was supposed to clean it before I league, I've never understood how league bowlers crap on the kids who make close to minimum wage doing jobs that many wouldn't or can't do. Often I bowl on Saturday afternoon or mid day on Sunday with the "normies" and get all kinds of questions about my equipment, rather than shine them on, I try to explain why I have 6 different balls and how they all do different things on different conditions. It's great distraction training for tournaments and it can be fun to share insight with the uninformed. There are at least 3 people who joined our Tuesday league after one Saturday convo about the sport. Too many bowlers try to be smug about their "skills" and protect what they think is special, it's just like fishing, the guy next to you has a full stringer and you ask "what are you using?" he replys, "bait" or "lure." Great jackass, you had a chance to expand and share something you love and you choose to put yourself up on some imagined pedestal instead. Good work.

/rant
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: jasont215 on February 19, 2016, 08:06:45 AM
If bowling with 2 hands is such an advantage, why don’t more of the one handed pros change to that style? If you are literally bowling for your paycheck and the 2 handed style is easier, quicker to learn, and has a massive advantage I’d be changing immediately. Makes no sense…
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: trash heap on February 19, 2016, 11:28:52 AM
Quote
it's just like fishing, the guy next to you has a full stringer and you ask "what are you using?" he replys, "bait" or "lure." Great jackass, you had a chance to expand and share something you love and you choose to put yourself up on some imagined pedestal instead. Good work.

I will share all the bowling knowledge I have. When it comes to fishing, forget it. Why? Because I don't know who you are....I have seen many good fishing areas go to waste because of guys that refuse to throw any of their catch back.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Aloarjr810 on February 19, 2016, 12:42:39 PM
If bowling with 2 hands is such an advantage, why don’t more of the one handed pros change to that style? If you are literally bowling for your paycheck and the 2 handed style is easier, quicker to learn, and has a massive advantage I’d be changing immediately. Makes no sense…

It's like when reactive resin balls came out and what they call the "modern game " (playing the inside of the ball, breakpoint management etc.) started.

A big part of the old guard couldn't make the conversion to the modern game, so then you started hearing "Cheater ball".



Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 19, 2016, 01:19:38 PM
The technological revolution started 65 years ago when lacquer lane finish replaced shellac.  Scoring levels plummeted until lane men learned how to oil the lacquer to help restore the game to reward the fundamentals employed during the shellac era.  The second stage of the revolution came when urethane lane finish replaced lacquer.   Again lane men changed oiling techniques to help minimize the impact of the new finishes.  The introduction of resin was yet another major technological change. 

Every one of the above changes impacted what had been considered fundamentals prior to the change.  In addition each of these changes made many top level bowlers non competitive in the new environment. 

Don Carter and Dick Weber adopted straight games that was rewarded on lacquer and made the looping full roller of Ned Day obsolete.  Roth and Holman high revving power games made the style of players like Neff, Hudson and Stefanich obsolete. 

The introduction of the resin ball rewarded more powerful releases in terms of ball speed than would have been optimal with pure urethane or polyester.  This lead to rewarding releases that could maximize both revs and ball speed, something that wasn't necessary with the non resin equipment. 

I don't think two handed will take over the game for a couple of reasons.  First while it may be easier to create revs that way, it is more difficult to be consistent, and is harder on the body.  In addition, while many patterns reward a high rev rate, not so many reward the big hook.  Of the two handers I have seen, only Belmo is adept at changing axis rotation to match different oil lengths
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: trash heap on February 19, 2016, 01:36:41 PM
Reactive Resin made the biggest change to the sport. This coverstock is totally responsible for the higher scoring. It gave power to those who didn't have it before. Compared to Urethane this ball would tear through the rack.

Just buying a Reactive Resin Ball, a bowler's strike percentage was automatically going to increase.

That statement holds true to this day. You will not strike as much with a Urethane or Plastic Ball as you do with a Reactive Resin Ball.

 
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: SVstar34 on February 19, 2016, 03:30:08 PM
Nick Smith (Brunsnick) has a video up on Facebook called the Traditionalists Worst Nightmare that I feel I laughed a little too hard at
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 19, 2016, 04:04:17 PM
Reactive resin has nothing to do with power.  It is a higher friction surface on the dry.  Power is totally supplied by the bowler in terms of rev rate.  Without the rev rate supplied by the bowler, friction potential is worthless.  How resin changed the game was in allowing players to combine their already high rev rates with more ball speed to over power lane conditions without giving up carrying power. 

The ability to carry was certainly enhanced with resin, but without conducive oil patterns resin was no advantage. 
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Stormroto22 on February 19, 2016, 07:36:41 PM
One of his issues if I remember right is that older people can't compete with younger people in the sport, what sport do you know of where a 20 year old can't be in better shape and neat a 50 year old? Not many if any. Every sport has been evolved and 2 handed has slowly evolved in bowlin . It's going to happen and no one is going to change that. Ej Tackett throws father and more revs than some 2 handers so what do we have to measure a person's revs and determine if they can participate in a tournament?
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: t1buck on February 19, 2016, 08:30:01 PM
Last season number where about 1.4 million members (that included Adult & youth).
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: morpheus on February 19, 2016, 10:30:00 PM
Last season number where about 1.4 million members (that included Adult & youth).

Just curious...how did you obtain that information?
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: t1buck on February 20, 2016, 07:37:51 PM
Those where the numbers USBC was talking earlier this season.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BackToBasics on February 21, 2016, 10:51:04 AM
Reactive resin has nothing to do with power.  It is a higher friction surface on the dry.  Power is totally supplied by the bowler in terms of rev rate.  Without the rev rate supplied by the bowler, friction potential is worthless.  How resin changed the game was in allowing players to combine their already high rev rates with more ball speed to over power lane conditions without giving up carrying power. 

The ability to carry was certainly enhanced with resin, but without conducive oil patterns resin was no advantage. 

I'm sorry, this couldn't be farther from the truth and anyone who's thrown both on similar conditions will know this (which I know you have so I'm surprised at this).  Given similar playing conditions, resin allows significantly more area, power and strike percentage.  Even greater than urethane on short oil.   

I still occasionally use urethane in league and I know I can pull out a 220 because I won't miss the pocket.  But the lack of carry even on slightly bad shots is not even in the same zip code as a slightly bad shot with resin.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: JustRico on February 21, 2016, 11:23:55 AM
Voss wants the game to return to when HE had an advantage...only problem he's past his prime and cannot accept that FACT
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: xrayjay on February 21, 2016, 11:47:50 AM
Voss wants the game to return to when HE had an advantage...only problem he's past his prime and cannot accept that FACT

that's the best short of it. In our league, everyone pretty much said the same thing.

"Charlie" this 62 years young scratch bowler said it best. "he should raise is belt over his waist line, grab his balls and bowl. Look who won the Japan Cup, it was the old guy."
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: JustRico on February 21, 2016, 02:31:36 PM
It's sad but he's now a bitter ex superstar
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Pinbuster on February 21, 2016, 07:13:19 PM
Of course everything I will say is my opinion and not that of any sponsor.  :)

I believe two handed bowling is an outgrowth of the current technology. I do not believe that style would work with pancake core balls, rubber and plastic coverstocks, wood lanes, using old conditioner, old stripping methods.
 
Whether these two handers will still be able to bowl when they are 50 to 60 and getting stiff remains to be seen, but they are currently shining bright on the national scene.

Time marches on and I don’t believe we could go back to the old conditions. The cat is out of the bag.
 
You can’t argue that bowling was much more popular when rubber and plastic balls were the norm. At that time you had to keep your speed down on most conditions or you got no reaction at all. There were bowlers around here at that time who could slow hook the lane but it was nearly impossible to get a consistent reaction.  Certain fundamentals were needed to score well and most bowlers physically could do those fundamentals.
 
I don’t believe even when I was 16 I had the flexibility to do what they do as two handers.
 
Voss was a great bowler and champion. I don’t think he is bitter so much as he loves the game, he has seen its participation drop 75%, and feels that the current scoring environment is a major factor in that decline.

Personally I believe bowling at that time was somewhat a fad, had reached its pinnacle, and changing culture in America has driven down participation more than the scoring environment or two handers.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: DrBob806 on February 21, 2016, 08:56:23 PM

 

Personally I believe bowling at that time was somewhat a fad, had reached its pinnacle, and changing culture in America has driven down participation more than the scoring environment or two handers.


I think that's it in a nutshell. There are way too many other forms of organized recreation for youth, and some of those want/ask year round participation. Throw in a Play Station or X Box, there's less and less people bowling.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: bergman on February 21, 2016, 09:27:55 PM
Pinbuster: You raise some good points.  The 2-handed style, is much more physically taxing, which could dramatically reduce the maximum age that bowlers could still be  competitive, especially at the professional level.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 22, 2016, 10:22:05 AM
Bowling became a power game 35 years ago with the rise of Roth Holman Webb and a bunch of lessor skilled cup wristed bowlers.  Everyone thing since then has simply been refinements in the power game as players learned to combine ball speed and high rev rates through changes in style.  Going back to 3 piece polyester balls would not change to balance from power to finesse unless accompanied by very long oil patterns.   

The power game became dominant because of the transition to very hard lane finishes that were oiled much shorter than the traditional lacquer finish.   Power is not rewarded, regardless of the type of bowling ball, without extremes friction increases from the front to the back of the lane.  Too much friction early and the high rev release either rolls out or heads to the left gutter.  Too much oil down the lane and the high rev release skids to far and wont hit. 

What the resin ball has done is allow bowlers to over power the oil because the balls soak so much off the lane.     
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: leftybowler70 on February 22, 2016, 11:38:02 AM
+1000000 avabob, I couldn't agree with you more.... This is exactly what the game has evolved into.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: txbowler on February 22, 2016, 12:06:27 PM
It's only my 2 cents, but I think oil developers are "trying" to make the oil last longer.  Newer oils take longer to transition and are "slicker".

If a oil (conditioner) is ever refined to where it cannot be removed from the lane by the ball, then you might see a change.

I don't believe I'll ever see that in my lifetime. 

There have also been some developments of "heavier" oils and putting even more volume on a lane.  But you see comments like "I don't like heavier oils, I can't burn in a shot".

You will never please everyone.  Everyone wants it to be to their advantage.

But I will say, when a bowler drops a ball at the foul line and gets maybe 6-8 revs on it and at 42 ft the weight block kicks in and the ball hits like Tommy Jones threw it,  that the coverstock is making a huge difference.

Bowlers today with weak rev rates can compete because the ball does the work for them at the pins.  It is what they teach you now.  Roll the ball and let it do the work for you.  If you hit on the ball, you need the speed to prevent the ball from over-reacting on friction.  When you have both speeds and revs, you get the best of both worlds.

A bowler can be in the 500 rev club, but if his top ball speed is 13-14 mph; on any short pattern, he is toast.  Consequently, if you are in the 150-200 rev club on a 45 ft pattern and throw it 19-20 mph; good luck getting it to hook.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Cornerpin on February 22, 2016, 12:27:36 PM

But I will say, when a bowler drops a ball at the foul line and gets maybe 6-8 revs on it and at 42 ft the weight block kicks in and the ball hits like Tommy Jones threw it,  that the coverstock is making a huge difference.

Bowlers today with weak rev rates can compete because the ball does the work for them at the pins.  It is what they teach you now.  Roll the ball and let it do the work for you.  If you hit on the ball, you need the speed to prevent the ball from over-reacting on friction.  When you have both speeds and revs, you get the best of both worlds.

A bowler can be in the 500 rev club, but if his top ball speed is 13-14 mph; on any short pattern, he is toast.  Consequently, if you are in the 150-200 rev club on a 45 ft pattern and throw it 19-20 mph; good luck getting it to hook.

+1000
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: itsallaboutme on February 22, 2016, 12:53:40 PM
"lessor skilled cup wristed bowlers" -spoken just like Mr. Voss
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BradleyInIrving on February 22, 2016, 01:31:26 PM
Adult bumper bowling (blocked lane conditions) isn't helping much either.. Each phase in bowling (rubber, plastic, urethane, reactive/particle) has/had it's blocked lane conditions..

Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Overhand on February 22, 2016, 02:13:03 PM
Not the perfect solution, but how about heavier pins?  Easier to implement and would require solid pocket hits to carry strikes consistently.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 22, 2016, 03:33:27 PM
We have the technology and the desire on the part of top level bowlers to put out challenging conditions.  The change to slicker higher viscosity oils, along with the trend of much longer oil patterns is helping the situation.  Notice the trend at the highest pro levels to much lower axis rotations resulting in more forward roll and smoother smaller change of direction off the oil.  Long formats where the players really open up the oil pattern are going to favor the high speed high rev guys, but that has been the case for 25 years.  Two handers are just a special case of power players.  Those who can repeat shots, and more importantly modify their axis rotation when necessary are going to have success in a power players environment. 

I have said for years that the problem I have with resin balls has nothing to do with their hitting power, but rather their ability to blow up patterns way to quickly.    Power is supplied by the bowler, coefficient of friction of the shell is what translates the power either effectively or not effectively. 
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: joeyyant on February 22, 2016, 03:35:51 PM
Not the perfect solution, but how about heavier pins?  Easier to implement and would require solid pocket hits to carry strikes consistently.

Should be "easy" to regulate as well. Today has become who can carry better. Look at the match between Duke and Jesper. Heavier would still hurt some of the Rev challenged player but will make spare shooting more important and prominent. 
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: txbowler on February 22, 2016, 03:47:55 PM
A thought just popped into my head.

Is this really "true fully" all about league?

Top tier bowlers in "most" regions of the country can find sport conditions to bowl on in either tournaments or practice in preparation for tournaments.

And I wonder if bowlers are frustrated that during the weekly leagues, where a huge amount of side action may be available, is decided by who can carry that night.

And also have to "put up with" bowlers "beating" them because of the THS.

I really wonder, is this more about league?
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 22, 2016, 03:53:35 PM
I am a 68 year old stroker.  I am much more competitive with a broad range of scratch bowlers on flatter patterns.  Having said that, when I am sharp and make good shots the only guys who beat me on the THS are guys who can beat me on the sport patterns too. 

Nothing has really changed that much in 40 years except the level of scoring.  In the early 70's some guy would carry a couple of beakers and a Brooklyn to win a side pot with a 220 game.  Today a guy who normally sprays the ball all over will be the blind squirrel who finds the nut for a game and wins the pot with a 260. 

Single games and short formats have never determined who a good bowler is.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: bergman on February 22, 2016, 04:18:03 PM
In regards to the past (pre-1977), the ABC was quite strict about lane conditioning.
In those days stacking oil in the middle of the lane (blocking/crowning) was illegal.
In fact, many of you who were around prior to 1977 can surely remember how many times the ABC had rejected "honor" scores, because of lane blocking.

Granted, the ABC
didn't have the technology that the USBC has today in measuring the lateral distribution of oil on the lane. Instead, they mostly relied on the old "finger test" .
It really wasn't until the ABC dramatically eased the rules that lane blocking/crowning
became the "norm", at least as far as what we  refer to as the typical house shot  today. The primary reason for the change was due to the fact that bowling proprietors were the ones getting the flak from their league bowlers when their honor scores were being rejected. The other reason being that back then, if a league bowler shot say, a 300, the lanes had to be shut down and the bowler's equipment was "confiscated" until an ABC inspector came to the site to verify if in fact, the score was bowled under the rules. This became somewhat of a logistical
problem for both, the ABC and the proprietor.

So with all due respect to those who believe that lane blocking/crowning was always
part of the game, I know from experience that it was not. Prior to 1977, it was much, much harder to get the ball to the pocket under the ABC's lane conditioning rules in effect at that time. The proof can also be found in the comparison of data as it relates to the number of honor scores bowled before and after 1977. Since then, there has been a dramatic increase. Some of it due to today's balls but a lot of it is also due to
the relaxation of the lane conditioning rules.

The "THS" was a whole different animal in those days. It was a lot tougher one.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 22, 2016, 04:57:33 PM
The problem with ABC efforts in that era is that they we focusing on players using oil as hold area and didn't notice the young guys coming out who were using the dry to swing the ball.  All they wanted was plenty of back ends
. Tha is why the short oil mandate of the 80's was such a colossal failure.  The system of bowling that replaced it could have worked had the anticipated resin and upped the outside oil to 8-10 units.  However nothing could completely halt the scoring increase because not only was tech better but so was bowling skill
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: bergman on February 22, 2016, 06:55:27 PM
Very true.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BowlingforSoup on February 22, 2016, 08:59:47 PM
Friction is the main problem.The 3 units of oil rule is from the 80s and early 90s with urethane.With resin it should be triple that.And take away these 12:1 houseshots would be a start.I have no problem with 2 handers or two finger bowlers.As an old bowler 55 years old its just getting hard to deal with all the friction.I just bowl one night a week now.I used to bowl at least 3 leagues.I am sure there's more than just Voss thinking what hes thinking.He is just the only one speaking out.I have been threw all the changes.Rubber,polyester,urethane and now resin.I think resin has made the biggest impact on bowling.Not sure if there's a cure,But would at least like to see the USBC attempt something other than take the awards away.I would gladly pay the 5$ increase if they would actually enforce some rules and lane patterns that are fair.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: trash heap on February 23, 2016, 07:32:05 AM
There is no way the USBC could of stopped the BPAA from applying and perfecting the THS. Think about it. What a concept! Adjust the oil in you center. Your customers start striking more, think they are better, therefore are happy, and return to your business again and again.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: bergman on February 23, 2016, 08:32:47 AM
Trash Heap:

Yes. That is exactly what happened. When the lane dressing rules were relaxed
after 1977, the bowling center I worked at initially refused to go with the changes.
That did not last very long as our league bowlers were watching the scores of bowlers in
surrounding centers exploded, and wondering what the heck was happening. Most league bowlers were unaware that the ABC had relaxed the rules--- that the "lid" was now off. It literally happened overnight. It forced our center to go along with the relaxed rules which placated both, our leagues and the proprietor's cash register.

There are certain events that occur where we will never forget when they took place.
The year 1977 was one of those years for me. That was the year that marked a sea change in the scoring environment. I remember Bill Taylor going berserk over the
rule change. He launched a crusade in staunch opposition and along the way garnered both his share of supporters and detractors. Today, the argument has not died down.

But make no mistake. Before 1977, a 200 average was reserved for only the very best
bowlers--and they were very few.  Beginning in 1978, all of that changed quite dramatically, thanks not to superior bowling balls, but largely thanks to the lane dressing rules change by the ABC at that time.


Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 23, 2016, 09:46:44 AM
Scoring was tanking in the mid 70's due to the inability of bowlers to deal with the much harder lane finishes that had replaced lacquer.  Oil carried down instead of tracking.  Wide scale lane blocking became the best available answer, but the soft polyester balls upped carry substantially on the blocked lanes.

I got out of college in 1971.  I joined the best scratch league in town and my average hovered right around 200 for 3 years using a hard rubber ball.  In the summer of 1974 I purchased a Columbia white dot.  That fall season I averaged 214.  During that same season there were 6 800 series shot in our association.  All with white dots and Shore D.  Prior to that there had been 2 800's shot in the history of the association. 

The shot to the pocket on blocked urethane was no easier than it had been 6 years earlier on lacquer, but the soft balls exploited the friction more readily.  In addition, the increased friction spawned the first generation of power players who were able to use their higher rev rates to carry even better. 

Attempts to control scoring through lane conditions ( Amendment 4 )  were always doomed to fail because it was accomplished by mandating flat oil ( we would call it a US Open condition today ) for leagues.  The subsequent rule that replaced it totally backfired because it allowed blocking for 24 feet, setting up all the friction needed by power players 
 
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BeerLeague on February 23, 2016, 01:50:25 PM
I agree with Voss on the no-thumb and two-handed style.  It gives the player an advantage over the field.  It is the same as anchored putting in golf.  The PGA banned it for the benefit of the game.  The USBC needs to do the same.  Bowling is on its last legs as a sport.  They should do everything to save it.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: johns811 on February 23, 2016, 02:29:47 PM
Totally agree!

I agree with Voss on the no-thumb and two-handed style.  It gives the player an advantage over the field.  It is the same as anchored putting in golf.  The PGA banned it for the benefit of the game.  The USBC needs to do the same.  Bowling is on its last legs as a sport.  They should do everything to save it.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: cory867 on February 23, 2016, 02:54:10 PM
i have seen and bowled against some 2 handed bowlers in my area and they have no advantage.  They still need to hit their marks and throw good shots like the rest of us. 
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: johns811 on February 23, 2016, 03:04:23 PM
A medium bucket of range balls costs about the same as 3 games of open bowling assuming you can catch a day time special @ $2 a game

Bowling isn't expensive compared to other sports.

Look at the cost of a baseball bat, glove, bag and cleats.

Basketball shoes alone can run you a lot of money.

Golf same way, Clubs, bag, shoes, accessories.

Any sport you can spend as little or as much as you want. You could bowl your entire life with out a high performance bowling ball and be successful. You buy it because you believe it has to make a DIFFerence.

One thing all these sports have over bowling. You can practice without any cost. Golf might have a little bit of cost (driving range), but no where near as much as bowling.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: johns811 on February 23, 2016, 03:14:06 PM
So the game doesn't turn into a 4 hr home run derby.

Hate to use a comparison to another sport but here it goes:

What is the main reason that Major League Baseball prohibit the use of metal bats?

 


Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 23, 2016, 05:22:06 PM
If no thumb is an advantage why don't we all do it.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: Bowlaholic on February 23, 2016, 05:39:16 PM
I personally don't have a problem with the two-handed style or the one handed, no thumb.  I think it bring a mix to bowling that makes it exciting to watch.
However, I have noticed from a viewing standpoint with the traditional style I watch to see a strike and with the two-handed style, I watch to see a miss.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BeerLeague on February 23, 2016, 07:40:21 PM
If no thumb is an advantage why don't we all do it.
Because we all do not have the physical makeup to do it .... just like anchored putting.  If you can do it, it is an unfair advantage.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BeerLeague on February 23, 2016, 07:44:47 PM
In regards to the past (pre-1977), the ABC was quite strict about lane conditioning.
In those days stacking oil in the middle of the lane (blocking/crowning) was illegal.
In fact, many of you who were around prior to 1977 can surely remember how many times the ABC had rejected "honor" scores, because of lane blocking.

Granted, the ABC
didn't have the technology that the USBC has today in measuring the lateral distribution of oil on the lane. Instead, they mostly relied on the old "finger test" .
It really wasn't until the ABC dramatically eased the rules that lane blocking/crowning
became the "norm", at least as far as what we  refer to as the typical house shot  today. The primary reason for the change was due to the fact that bowling proprietors were the ones getting the flak from their league bowlers when their honor scores were being rejected. The other reason being that back then, if a league bowler shot say, a 300, the lanes had to be shut down and the bowler's equipment was "confiscated" until an ABC inspector came to the site to verify if in fact, the score was bowled under the rules. This became somewhat of a logistical
problem for both, the ABC and the proprietor.

So with all due respect to those who believe that lane blocking/crowning was always
part of the game, I know from experience that it was not. Prior to 1977, it was much, much harder to get the ball to the pocket under the ABC's lane conditioning rules in effect at that time. The proof can also be found in the comparison of data as it relates to the number of honor scores bowled before and after 1977. Since then, there has been a dramatic increase. Some of it due to today's balls but a lot of it is also due to
the relaxation of the lane conditioning rules.

The "THS" was a whole different animal in those days. It was a lot tougher one.


I agree 100%.  I remember the local association coming to the center the night of, or morning after an honor score was shot to take a "tape" of the lane.  Yes, scores were rejected then for walled up / blocked shots.  Now the so-called THS is the illegal block shot from years ago.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: TDC57 on February 24, 2016, 10:29:54 AM
two handed delivery? how can this be physically possible?

It's not really 2 handed delivery, it's still 1 handed on the delivery part.
Right when the 2 handers is about to rev the ball they move the supporting hand away.
They use an extra hand to support the ball until it's at the part of the swing where you're supposed to rev the ball to get the best hook.

If they'd use the supporting hand to create extra rev with that too, then they'd break the fingers that are in the ball :P

This must not be as factual as the writer makes it sound. At the beginning, the USBC did not allow the off hand to be used for anything more than support. They now allow the off hand to impart rotation. In that scenario a two handed bowler does have an advantage over a conventional style bowler. When I watch the TV shows it sure looks like many are using the off hand to get more rotation and I haven't seen any broken body parts!! And, if you think about two-handers being allowed to do this, why is it still illegal for a bowler to use his opposite hand to convert certain spares?
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 24, 2016, 10:42:27 AM
The lane conditioning rule that people are referring to was not introduced until 1975, and was still in place in 1982.  It was a bad rule because the technology, nor the knowledge existed to properly construct such a rule  It was also the rule that spawned the biggest mis carriage of justice most of us can think of in the rejection of Glenn Allisons 900 series. 

The ABC had no idea of the implications of the change from lacquer to urethane lane finish.  I learned on lacquer, and getting to the pocket was dead easy, partly because we didn't have the down lane friction between ball and lane surface.  Carry was usually more difficult for the same reason.  You couldn't just rev up a ball and find the friction to make it hook on the long oiled lacquer. 

When urethane lane finish came in, the oiling patterns used on lacquer produced   a mess.  Oil was pushed off the heads and moved down lane rather than tracking as it did on the softer lacquer.  The fist answer to this problem was to put more oil in the heads and strip the back ends more often.  This technique was combined with putting little or no oil outside to build a track that would not develop in and of itself.  Softer polyester balls reacted more strongly to the artificially created dry areas, allowing the development of the power player who could now rev up the ball and find more down lane friction. 

Lane blocking is as old as the game, but it became much more predominant with the introduction of urethane finish.  In addition the scoring disparity between blocked and non blocked lanes became much greater on urethane than it had been on lacquer as softer polyester balls were introduced. 

I remember bowling pot games ( really dating myself ) on lacquer in a house that was walled off the corner in 1967.  I was not a good corner shooter, but I could play the track at 15 board and compete with the house full roller guys who specialized in the corner shot.  5 of the 7 houses in my city employed lane conditioning methods to help scoring even prior to the switch to urethane in the early 70's. 

Another thing people don't understand is that the older soft lacquer finish did not reward the higher friction balls the way urethane could be made to.  The last ABC bowled on lacquer was the 1975 tournament in Dayton OH.  It was also my first ABC.  I shot a very respectable 1860 all events with my new carmel white dot.  I watched Bobby Meadows win all events throwing a black diamond.  Right beside him was a guy scoring almost as well using a super soft Shore D, playing about 3 boards deeper.

 
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: TDC57 on February 24, 2016, 11:00:18 AM
avabob,

That was a beautifully written post that couldn't be more dead-on right. Many of the bowlers who wish for tougher lane conditions today, either weren't born yet or don't remember lacquer. There were often times when you bowling on it, you couldn't miss the pocket, but pin carry wasn't the same as today because the balls didn't deliver the punch of the ones today. I worked in bowling centers during that time and again you were spot on saying when urethane finishes hit the market, oiling the lanes the same, caused great amounts of carry-down and ungodly problems with getting balls to return. The bowling industry looking for a solution came up with shorter oil patterns. What that the answer? Probably not as we look back today, but it was all they could come up with at the time.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: avabob on February 24, 2016, 11:42:11 AM
Thanks TD.  Brings to mind my answer when people use to ask me what I thought a fair condition was.  My answer was, and still is, any condition I can hit better than the other guys.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BallReviews-Removed0385 on February 24, 2016, 12:30:53 PM

Every condition favors SOMEONE, and every shot makes SOMEONE happy... ;)
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: TDC57 on February 24, 2016, 12:35:55 PM
You're absolutely right. If the shot is super, somebody that has ability will shoot poorly on it and if the shot is horrible somebody will light it up. This will never change!
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: xrayjay on February 24, 2016, 01:07:22 PM
This post reminds me of those retired group of gents at winchell's donut house kicking back with their coffee and donuts. Listening to them every morning before I went to school was a history lesson or an update of current events. Just enjoyable.. Good reads in this post.
Title: Re: How to fix bowling by Brian Voss
Post by: BradleyInIrving on February 24, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
I propose the BVBC... His rules, his way.. Don't like it, don't join :)