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Author Topic: Hypocrisy in bowling  (Read 3836 times)

mainzer

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Hypocrisy in bowling
« on: June 12, 2022, 08:39:10 PM »
What are your thoughts on the hypocrisy in bowling sbf and do you think it hurts the sport/game to any great extent?

For example Mark Roth was the first cranker and he is a legend but two handers are "cheating" or it isn't real bowling, or should be in their own division. But Mark Roth was just as revolutionary in his day. Did he need his own division no why is there a difference I don't see any. Robert Smith threw it and turned it harder with one hand than most two handers do with two but he is ok for the simple fact that he is one handed, why?

Another example. Bowler A is not well liked or understood but he is a good bowler passionate and shows it can be loud sometimes shows frustration but makes cuts makes spares wins scratch tournaments. But his or her peers do not care for the individual they shout down accomplishments and do there best to ignore them due to the antics.

Bowler B is the same as Bowler A same antics and in some instances goes beyond what bowler A does including complaining about bowler A while doing the same things. But people like Bowler B why is there a difference?
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MJS73

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2022, 07:37:26 AM »
You seemed to have stumbled onto the fact that some people like one thing while other people do not.  People are not robots and will generate their own feelings about things.  Some people like cheesecake, others do not.  Some people like muscle cars, others do not.  Some people like bowling, others do not.  You can't put 12 people ina a room and get them to agree the sky is blue.  Not sure why this is creating angst for you or how much time/thought it really deserves.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 12:34:12 PM by MJS73 »

TWOHAND834

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2022, 08:51:27 AM »
You seemed to have stumbles onto the fact that some people like one thing while other people do not.  People are not robots and will generate their own feelings about things.  Some people like cheesecake, others do not.  Some people like muscle cars, others do not.  Some people like bowling, others do not.  You can't put 12 people ina a room and get them to agree the sky is blue.  Not sure why this is creating angst for you or how much time/thought it really deserves.

Agree 100%.  You go into any league meeting before the start to go over rules of the league and voting on anything never comes to 100% one way or the other.  Being that I have a been a two hander since 1994; I have heard it all.  Being one of the first to do it; I always had a crowd watching and some thought it was cool and had that "How is that even possible" reaction and others had that "He is cheating" reaction.  It is not as bad now since way more people are bowling this way.  But there will never be 100% of the people that agree with it.  I keep trying to explain the release is still one handed and that the second hand is nothing more than a glorified wrist brace; but I got exhausted trying to defend it.  You just need to come to the realization that no matter what the circumstance is; you will never make everyone happy. 
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ignitebowling

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2022, 08:58:45 AM »
Replace the word bowlers with people and you have discovered the answer to most questions/problems.

Im sure at some point those using one finger and a thumb hated the two finger and a thumb bowlers.

Not to mention the riots of the conventional grip vs fingertip grips the erupted years ago. The bloodshed.
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Bowls 300s

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2022, 07:54:14 AM »

I keep trying to explain the release is still one handed and that the second hand is nothing more than a glorified wrist brace

The two-handers support arm is a replacement for the one-handed players thumb in that these are what allow for the back-swing. One handed thumbless players have to find different ways to prevent gravity from setting in on the back-swing. Techniques like bent elbow and lots of wrist cupping, even shorting the back-swing to little or none.

Two-handed a more clever and consistent method IMHO.

While all types finish by imparting revs with two fingers at point of release, I don't see the two-handers support arm in anyway as a "glorified wrist brace".

This is not an oppinion on any technigue as to superior but that said bowling on shots I played in my youth laid edge to edge with a Brunswick B-90 in the 70s I could not develope any consistency when experimenting with a traditional tumbless technique. Shots then you encountered had little if any wiggle room. Roth a product of hard finishes when it allowed the shot to open up and even "wall" them. Crankers where comming out of the woodwork. Earlier players styles it might be fair to say their techniques they developed a product of lane conditions. For instance laquer players used "reach" in leiu of "leverage" that Legend Don Johnson so brought to the sport along with "lift". Johson simply amazing. A 5 step player with reach pre-70s and completely redesigns his game to a 4 step player with tremendous balance and leverage.
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TWOHAND834

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2022, 10:14:27 AM »

I keep trying to explain the release is still one handed and that the second hand is nothing more than a glorified wrist brace

The two-handers support arm is a replacement for the one-handed players thumb in that these are what allow for the back-swing. One handed thumbless players have to find different ways to prevent gravity from setting in on the back-swing. Techniques like bent elbow and lots of wrist cupping, even shorting the back-swing to little or none.

Two-handed a more clever and consistent method IMHO.

While all types finish by imparting revs with two fingers at point of release, I don't see the two-handers support arm in anyway as a "glorified wrist brace".

This is not an oppinion on any technigue as to superior but that said bowling on shots I played in my youth laid edge to edge with a Brunswick B-90 in the 70s I could not develope any consistency when experimenting with a traditional tumbless technique. Shots then you encountered had little if any wiggle room. Roth a product of hard finishes when it allowed the shot to open up and even "wall" them. Crankers where comming out of the woodwork. Earlier players styles it might be fair to say their techniques they developed a product of lane conditions. For instance laquer players used "reach" in leiu of "leverage" that Legend Don Johnson so brought to the sport along with "lift". Johson simply amazing. A 5 step player with reach pre-70s and completely redesigns his game to a 4 step player with tremendous balance and leverage.

Well this shows differently and I have been a two hander for almost 30 years.  My release point is completely one handed and yes, the second hand is nothing more than a glorified wrist brace as it takes the weight of the ball off the dominate hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_GyMPzSCQ

This also shows differently:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ognPM7RtLs

Here is another and you get a really good look at the :45 sec mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQCX3LSCJ4M
Steven Vance
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avabob

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2022, 12:48:37 PM »
The game is environmental.  Transition from hard balls on soft finishes to soft balls on ha d finishes paved the way to for crankers vs strokers.  Two hand is just a version of cranker that more people seem to be able to adopt.  A change that favors a style different than the power game will hurt all power players regardles

bradl

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2022, 04:28:48 PM »

Not for nothing, but I don't remember hearing any complaints, if there were any at all, regarding Mike Miller. I mean, 2 fingers for his first ball, then fingers and thumb for any spare attempt.

More than that, Gary Dickinson went down to 1 finger and a thumb for his spares, and again, no complaints.

Yet someone like Belmo, Packy, or Afrofish gets the complaints because they are doing the same thing that Miller did 30 years ago? ugh.

The way I see it is this: They are still using their body to the best of their abilities within the rules the WTBA and every national governing body under them have related to the release of the ball. If people are complaining about what they are doing, I'm laughing at them because while it may have been in a different era, Dickinson was doing less with what he had and was still scoring better than those complainers are.

In short, if you can do more with less, then more power to you; it doesn't matter which part is less, whether it be more or less fingers. What does matter is that there is a limit to what one can do with less or more, and that is the part that can be controlled. If you go overboard or with too much "more", you'll get less. It also goes the other way: if you go with too much "less", you'll also get less. That's where you need to know what to do with less or more to get more. Once you master that, it doesn't matter.

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bowling_rebel

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2022, 05:33:01 PM »
4 years ago due to hand/thumb issues I gave up on bowling with my thumb and switched to no thumb, copying Mike Miller and Tom Daugherty.

The difference between Mike Miller and Belmo, is that one was perceived as doing something unusual that somehow worked for him. The other was doing something sort of new, that threatened to change the support.

One hand, no thumb bowling was, and remains something that may make sense for some, but most people should not be bowling this way. Also, you can not take a total newbie and have then one hand, no thumb effectively. During open bowling you see lots of people who don't know how to bowl do really bad one hand, no thumb. I was bowling in the 150's/160's for the first 6 months of learning. It was worth it in the long run, but not easy.

But two handed - well a total newbie may not be good, but they will very quickly have a reasonable release, even if speed and accuracy isn't there.

So basically, Mike Miller was more of a freak. The closest comparison to today is Jakob Butturff. As good as he is, he has not inspired a generation of conventional grip bowlers. 

Bowls 300s

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Re: Hypocrisy in bowling
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2022, 07:04:25 PM »

I keep trying to explain the release is still one handed and that the second hand is nothing more than a glorified wrist brace

The two-handers support arm is a replacement for the one-handed players thumb in that these are what allow for the back-swing. One handed thumbless players have to find different ways to prevent gravity from setting in on the back-swing. Techniques like bent elbow and lots of wrist cupping, even shorting the back-swing to little or none.

Two-handed a more clever and consistent method IMHO.

While all types finish by imparting revs with two fingers at point of release, I don't see the two-handers support arm in anyway as a "glorified wrist brace".

This is not an oppinion on any technigue as to superior but that said bowling on shots I played in my youth laid edge to edge with a Brunswick B-90 in the 70s I could not develope any consistency when experimenting with a traditional tumbless technique. Shots then you encountered had little if any wiggle room. Roth a product of hard finishes when it allowed the shot to open up and even "wall" them. Crankers where comming out of the woodwork. Earlier players styles it might be fair to say their techniques they developed a product of lane conditions. For instance laquer players used "reach" in leiu of "leverage" that Legend Don Johnson so brought to the sport along with "lift". Johson simply amazing. A 5 step player with reach pre-70s and completely redesigns his game to a 4 step player with tremendous balance and leverage.

Well this shows differently and I have been a two hander for almost 30 years.  My release point is completely one handed and yes, the second hand is nothing more than a glorified wrist brace as it takes the weight of the ball off the dominate hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_GyMPzSCQ

This also shows differently:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ognPM7RtLs

Here is another and you get a really good look at the :45 sec mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQCX3LSCJ4M

I mean I totally get it, its just the analogy does not work for me. Sure the support arm takes the weight, it has to and and hold the ball up to the dominate hand. If I could defy gravity while maintaining a natural one-handers pedulum I would be all about it but I need my thumb for a 10 p.m backswing.

Kyle cradles the ball, drops the support arm as soon as momentum sets in at point of execution.

Appreciate your reply

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