Post by: LuckyLefty on July 24, 2006, 08:29:40 AM
Locking right after a long winded post...maybe a good way to get the last word in.
And I've been told that PS's were good for that.
Regarding Lane#1. I think an important thing for bowlers to understand is that in most technique sports...great technique is learned under easier conditions.
It makes it easier to focus on the technique instead of the target!
If one starts bowling too early on sport conditions and other difficult patterns particularly before the technique is fully developed it leads to an impediment to achieving the best technique possible!
A very good friend of mine said it so well!
When I feel like I have 3 boards on which to strike...I get so loose I can hit 1! When I feel that I only have one board to hit...I'm lucky to hit 3!". He averaged 236 in a local league with a 10 year old pair of shoes and an 8 year old single ball arsenal!
Free swing versus tight swing!
One of the comments Richie Sposato also related during a recent presentation he gave was that there should be a reward for developing a powerful release.
OF course right after that he went out and tore up a sport shot that was trickin us ALL..until he showed us how to do it...combining his powerful release with plastic and a pin axis drilling to really WOW the whole crowd of mostly favorable sport shot proponents assembled!
REgards,
Luckylefty
This same thought I believe applies to the golf swing!
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Edited on 7/25/2006 9:49 AM
Post by: bamaster on July 24, 2006, 05:16:32 PM
quote:
in most technique sports...great technique is learned under easier conditions.
Just curious... where do you get this?
--------------------
Tony
My Bowling Classifieds (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/classifieds/showcat.php?cat=500&ppuser=3")
My Bowling Journal (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/public.php?uid=3&leagueid=1") | My Ball Registry & Grip Specs (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/registry/public.php?regid=5")
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 24, 2006, 05:39:45 PM
They are Opinions!
In golf when I would put a ball on a ground before the golfer had developed weight shift...there was no way while focusing on the ball could he develop weight shift!
Raise the ball on a tee...the job was easier. No ball...even easier. Continue raising the bar on difficulty of ball contact until the technique would break...then we would go back to the easier step and focus on technique.
As far as targeting. If we put a golfer set up with the wind coming from his back across his swing (or from left to right) and he was trying to learn to draw the ball we knew we could take twice as long. So one goes to the end of the range and teaches it in 1/2 of the time of no wind. A 4 times saving over having the wind in the wrong direction.
REgarding bowling. I notice the same thing. The pins are the first impediment to focusing on technique. Then if the pins are there if the lane conditions are tricky and tough it is very hard to focus the mind on the technique of the execution.
I guess that is why at the Dick Ritger schools they start with rolling a ball to a partner and focusing on the feels of the swing. I understand they then work backwards form the foul line. With their one step swing drills etc.
All oriented toward developing technique while focusing on the technique! Not the pins and carry. When it breaks down I hear they go back to an earlier step!
I understand they are pretty successful!
OH...I guess I sort of HEARD it one place.
I remember it this way.
Watcher says, "Nice strike...(to Dave Davis PBA hall of famer). He says,
"Thanks....I didn't see it!, I'm working on throwing the ball close to my ankle".
He follows up with..."I've been doing this since 1957 for 40 5o 45 minutes at the beginning of every practice session"
From that I extrapolated that it was like golf. There is technique practice and lane play practice! Always be ready to go back to the bedrock of your technique practice if a tough lane condition....(or windy golf condition) wrecks your core technique.
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: bamaster on July 24, 2006, 08:16:16 PM
Do there have to be quotes? No. You make a sweeping statement like that... which I completely disagree with... and all I did was ask for your reasoning. Your reply doesn't support it, in my opinon. The Ritger exercise is *void* of lane conditions, there's no benefit to having a wall or sport shot when learning to swing the ball. As is your example with Dave Davis.
Those are fundamental exercises that can be learned bowling on carpet.
--------------------
Tony
My Bowling Classifieds (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/classifieds/showcat.php?cat=500&ppuser=3")
My Bowling Journal (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/public.php?uid=3&leagueid=1") | My Ball Registry & Grip Specs (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/registry/public.php?regid=5")
Post by: J_Mac on July 24, 2006, 09:28:40 PM
--------------------
"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice." Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 25, 2006, 10:35:41 AM
I forgot to mention a couple of things. He was 31 and had stopped bowling after a college career where I forget if He was #1 and Tommy Delutz was #2 or vice versa on their college team!
He said in fact...it's all mental! There was no physical element at all to his relearning the game after a 10 year layoff and averaging 236. I remember he started on a sport shot the first day...to get things in order!
I believe there is physical technique practice(in golf we made it easy, unless we wanted the player to make slow progress...then in those cases we put the ball down in a tough lie BEFORE they had good technique)., lane play practice, spare practice, high score mental practice, low score mental practice.
Some different practice techniques!
However for some reason we always like to start easy work to hard...break it...return one step to easier...try to break it...make it one step easier...and so on! Building confidence in stages. I call it 1 step backwards two forward. I've actually never tried it and only made very moderate progress in my first year of bowling and never applied it to golf for myself or students. Some males broke 80 in their first summer on the course and others broke 90 in their first round on the female side...but frankly we have no idea how.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I like to watch kids learn. Fascinating....how they do it on their own! An example video driving games. They start on driving level 1. Fail...miserably. Get better. Go back. Get better even better. Go to driving level 2. Breakdown.
Go back to level 1. Go to level 2...better. Get better at 2....skip to level 3 breakdown...back to level 2. Amazing...and they do it on their own. A series of confidence building steps in a logical order
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: SirAshley on July 25, 2006, 09:31:27 PM
--------------------
To be Politically Correct in this society I feel we should change the term "House Hack" to "One House Wonder". It will make alot of losers feel much better about themselves!!!
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 25, 2006, 09:41:43 PM
YOU did that!
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: 302efi on July 25, 2006, 10:12:39 PM
quote:
Lock this... Mushtare sucks...
ROFL!
L/L just admit he cheated, you'll feel better
...and no, Mustard does not have a "powerful" game, swing, release on anything else...
--------------------
Nothing but Dyno-Thane
Live by the hook...Die by the hook
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 26, 2006, 11:21:10 AM
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: BackToBasics on July 26, 2006, 12:27:14 PM
And you can easily teach that person how to draw the ball into a left to right wind. If the wind is coming hard off the left, and this person is a natural fader, a simple hold off draw that goes straight will let you know he's drawing the ball. The fact that there is a repeatable result (i.e every time he draws the ball it goes straight) from the swing will give him all the feedback he needs. You just modify the results to the desired outcome.
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 26, 2006, 01:35:15 PM
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I do agree with you that a FAIR condition is probably a better way of saying it! As yes ...I loved to practice in to a staight headwind! To show the ball sidespin easier! A tail wind on the other hand did mask bad execution.
PPS in bowling I believe a nice blended gradually tapered crown gives a nice set of feedback for a beginning bowler. A sport shot however which quickly becomes a reverse block I still believe impedes technique progress.
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: BackToBasics on July 26, 2006, 01:50:21 PM
You really need to stop getting so defensive when someone posts an opinion, supported by examples, that contradicts yours.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on July 26, 2006, 02:27:26 PM
Anyone that knows about the game of golf knows that it is easier to control a fade than a draw. If you do not know how to hit a fade successfully, you will not be competitive on the major TOURS.
Ben Hogan probably would not have been as effective simply because he was training against a wind direction that most right handed golfers would not prefer to see. If you fade a ball on a left to right wind, you have just created a slice or power fade at best. A right hander would almost rather have a right to left wind instead because it is easier to fade the ball against it than vice versa. But, obviously, as a pro, he was already comfortable hitting against right to left wind. So, to step up his game, he trained on the left to right to develop that technique where he could transfer that to the course. Therefore he knew what kind of shot no matter what dorection the wind was coming from.
As far as LuckyLefty is concerned, he was just making a general analogy that training methods in bowling can relate to the training methods in golf. Lefties remarks as far as it being easier to loosen up your arm swing on an easier shot is almost obvious. It is easier simply because you do not have to concentrate on a spot on the lane, but an area. On the flip side, if you are bowling on a sport shot or flat pattern, you tend to tighten up because you focus more on the spot on the lane and dont think about the armswing nearly as much.
Bamaster,
I can answer your initial question. He does not need quotes or anything. It is common sense. It is easier to develop a technique on easier conditions because you are loose. On a tougher condition, you tend to tighten up and most of the time, your mental game gets in the way of the physical. You develop technique first and then transfer what you have learned to a tougher condition. If someone is trying to learn how to bowl, they want to see results, which in return, boosts up their mental game. So, do you try to teach them on a sport pattern to start or something easier so they get some positive feedback of what they are doing? Common sense.
--------------------
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: BackToBasics on July 26, 2006, 03:00:24 PM
quote:
Anyone that knows about the game of golf knows that it is easier to control a fade than a draw. If you do not know how to hit a fade successfully, you will not be competitive on the major TOURS.
Ben Hogan probably would not have been as effective simply because he was training against a wind direction that most right handed golfers would not prefer to see. If you fade a ball on a left to right wind, you have just created a slice or power fade at best. A right hander would almost rather have a right to left wind instead because it is easier to fade the ball against it than vice versa. But, obviously, as a pro, he was already comfortable hitting against right to left wind. So, to step up his game, he trained on the left to right to develop that technique where he could transfer that to the course. Therefore he knew what kind of shot no matter what dorection the wind was coming from.
I understand all that. My point is that that was his choice to train the best way he knew how to achieve the results he wanted. Those are fine tuning aspects of training. Being able to have complete ball control and shot selection depending on the wind and shot at hand.
However, LL used an example of teaching someone how to hit a draw and claimed that he could teach someone to hit the draw in 1/2 time needed by going to no wind. I countered that statement by saying the same results can be achieved by altering what you expect to happen. The desired outcome is to have the student develop an in-out swing path that allows a draw. That's a physical goal that has no bearing on the wind direction which is an outside influence. That swing path can still be developed regardless of what the ball actually does. Just like the oil pattern doesn't matter when trying to switch someone from a full roller to a 3/4 roller.
The Ben Hogan comment is LL's way of getting shots in. But they are old and tired. He hates to be corrected or countered (like when he went all hissy about a correction I made on some core shapes in some Track balls).
Edited on 7/26/2006 2:58 PM
Post by: Ragnar on July 26, 2006, 03:07:43 PM
"The rolling hills of the palouse provide a calming influence on library patrons, and in addition give Lucky Lefty a free range to roam while spouting insanely stupid commentary about the shape of pigeon's feet"
LL would certainly be justified in locking the topic, and/or reposting.
--------------------
"I do desire that we may be better strangers." Willie the Shake, As You Like it(III,ii)
"aroyskrikn zoln dir di oygn fun kop"
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 26, 2006, 03:49:18 PM
There are several aspects to this post.
1) there was a previous post about Lane#1 being silly for not encouraging sport bowling. I passed on the recent comments of Richie Sposato in that post and a few other comments came in and the guy closed it!
2)I do get snippy...there are more and more jerks on this site...I don't necessarily think AC Chappy is one of em!
3)I agreed with him on the Fair versus easy for training bowlers...I actually do believe that while there are few that could assist me with golf swing techniques...I'm sure he is up there in that departnment in bowling from what I hear(he may be a professional golfer also). He may be able to hit a golf ball better than me and from what I understand Mo Norman could!
4)Regarding the quesion of Fair(ie an analgous condition to a headwind in golf...) is that a blended top hat, or a christmas tree? I am interested in what is the opinion of ACHAPPY and others for the analgous condition in bowling that replicates a wind in face shot.
5) recently when attending the Junior gold program tournament. I observed from a distance some incredible games! Let me say the number covered about 15 to 20 percent of the assembled bowlers! I actually believed these bowlers so had it that they were learning. Many other bowlers I saw were frankly in way over their head with techniques that maybe were still in the developmental phases.
My thought when watching developing bowlers on very tough shots is much like my thoughts on watching developing golfers on US open conditions....more torture going on than learning. I have always believed in developing success slowly and steadily building from an easy condition base and ...then pushing forward to the breaking point ...stepping back and then forging farther ahead. Like a baby learning to walk! We typically don't start him at the top of the stairs! He may learn something but it WILL be painful!
6) Again my thougts on practicing with the wind at ones back is similar to the esteemed HAWK! Even for the higher level player it almost encourages a coming over the top motion. Yes the player with established technique can learn the draw and hold into this wind...the novice when trying to learn on this pattern can speed his results by about 4 times(not just 2) by practicing into the other direction wind!(walk to the end of the range...just like the HAWK!). SO I believe it is with the proper hook for the novice to intermediate bowler...a reverse block makes it hard...a crown/christmas tree makes it easy. Much as the wind is to friction for golf so is dry to the wind for bowling. An aid in building success patterns.
Put the baby on the top of the stairs? Or put him on the flat and let him build success! In advance to many who don't get that parallel...apologies for that analogy!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS Twohandman...thank you for the common sense comments! Another thing that makes common sense to me is TWO HANDED BOWLING!
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Edited on 7/26/2006 3:47 PM
Post by: BackToBasics on July 26, 2006, 09:47:19 PM
LOL! Me a professional golfer??? I wish
I'm a good golfer. I'm self taught and have become very serious the past several years. Definately not in the league of some of the Div I college guys and long time scratch players that play the tournaments around here. But I've developed an obsession with the game and equipment as deep as bowling. This is the best year I've had in terms of ball striking and overall scoring. Part of that has been settling on one set of equipment and just practicing. But I was able to develop techniques regardless of the wind or weather. Ironically, the day I started to learn how to draw the ball, it was at a range with 15-20MPH winds left to right and that was by not slicing it 50 yards LOL.I do agree that it's much easier to develope technique on easier conditions. You eliminate a variable and that's tension. I guess where we differ is is this a self taught process or is there another pair of eyes? If self taught, then it's better to eliminate as many variables as possible. But if you have a teacher who has the eyes, I believe he can achieve the same results "teaching into the wind". I believe it can be achieved on a flat condition, assuming the surface is such where inconsistant reactions are not created.
I understand that there are posters who you may have a negative history. But this forum would be much better if we all learned to debate topics without attacking each other. There were lots of posters (Constantine, Precision, KOTM, Pchee, tenpinspro, BrunsRich, BrunsRick, etc) on here that have stopped or have limited posting because of the direction the forum has headed. I actually miss reading posts from them. We all have experiences and can learn from each other if the topic is discussed civilly. The forum and all members will benefit.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on July 26, 2006, 09:55:32 PM
I agree with you 100%. I do not think attacking people is the best way to solve anything. People have their opinions and unfortunately, we are going to disagree at times. That is human nature.
Lets face it. If we were half the golfer compared to being a bowler, would we be here?
--------------------
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 27, 2006, 11:16:25 AM
Have you ever hit 18 greens in regulation?
An answer I am proud to give is many(not pro tour courses)!
Another question may be have you ever 18 greens in regulation and hit all the par 5s in two....I am happy to reply...not many...but some!
I am UNhappy to reply to ...when you hit 18 greens in regulation and all the par5s in two were you a ton under par...UNFORTUNATELY...not that much...well except for a few times!! Wiggler!
I putt like Sergio Garcia while he is in contention!
That my friend is why I am on this forum!
I must get back in shape for it(about 3 weeks on the range, righty by the way!) but I have seriously considered entering "America's best driver" contest and like to think I could contend. (It is a contest that combines both distance and accuracy(narrower fairway than the National long drive format) for several drives). I have only seen it contested once on TV! For guys a little shorter than the 370 to 400 yard boomers of the National Long drive contest but quite a bit straighter.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS unless Dan Pohl enters and then I surrender! I hope that retired guy Jodie Mudd doesn't decide to come out either! Yeah...no former PGA tour winners!
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Edited on 7/27/2006 11:12 AM