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Author Topic: I want to play ! RG  (Read 6955 times)

Magic Carpet

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I want to play ! RG
« on: April 12, 2008, 02:19:42 AM »
I want to play!
If you have two identical balls with one exception, one has the lowest rg allowed and one has the highest rg allowed. Both balls are drilled with the same layout and the pin is 3 3/8 from the PAP. Both balls have enough differential to flare at least 4 inches.

If a bowler throws the high rg ball with 350 revs off his hand and then throws the low rg ball the exact same way, will his rev rate increase to even 351 revs with the low rg ball?

Ron Clifton
Looking for perspective

 

Magic Carpet

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2008, 10:52:06 AM »
n00dlejester
I didn’t say the bowler threw both balls at 350 RPM, I said he applied enough force to rotate the high rg ball to 350 RPM off his hand. If he applied the same force to the low rg ball will that same amount of force produce at least 351 RPM.

Too many of you are thinking about the ball way down the lane. I am just asking about off the hand, just a few inches not feet.

In the case of the figure skater mentioned above, if it was a bowler that spun the figure skater and she had her arms out stretched (high rg position) and she turned 350 RPMs would she not spin many more revs if on the next spin she pulled her arms in (low rg position) and the bowler applied the same amount of force?

Ron Clifton
Just looking for some perspective

n00dlejester

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2008, 11:29:33 AM »
If it's right off the hand, within the first few inches, how much time would the core have to stabilize itself and start to go into it's hook and roll?  Almost none.  If we're talking rev rate right off the hand, I would say that there is no difference in RPM within say the first foot of a lane given your ball differences.
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nospareball

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2008, 02:03:18 PM »
quote:
n00dlejester
I didn’t say the bowler threw both balls at 350 RPM, I said he applied enough force to rotate the high rg ball to 350 RPM off his hand. If he applied the same force to the low rg ball will that same amount of force produce at least 351 RPM.

Too many of you are thinking about the ball way down the lane. I am just asking about off the hand, just a few inches not feet.

In the case of the figure skater mentioned above, if it was a bowler that spun the figure skater and she had her arms out stretched (high rg position) and she turned 350 RPMs would she not spin many more revs if on the next spin she pulled her arms in (low rg position) and the bowler applied the same amount of force?

Ron Clifton
Just looking for some perspective



Shelley is correct, with the same amount of force applied the low rg ball will have more revolutions.  The figure skater analogy is a good one.  The skater applies force to enter a spin with her arms extended, and spins at lets say 50rpm.  When she brings her arms in (lowering her RG) she doubles her spin rate to 100rpm.  All that bringing her arms in did was lower her body's RG, no extra force was applied to the spin!  So the force stays the same in the equation for both RG values of her body.

If you apply this to a bowling ball with the RG values having a difference of .4" the results will be less dramatic, but follow the same pattern.  So yes, the low RG ball will have more revolutions off the hand.  1 more?  I don't know, you'd have to do the math.
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shelley

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2008, 02:42:27 PM »
quote:
quote:
n00dlejester
I didn’t say the bowler threw both balls at 350 RPM, I said he applied enough force to rotate the high rg ball to 350 RPM off his hand. If he applied the same force to the low rg ball will that same amount of force produce at least 351 RPM.


Shelley is correct, with the same amount of force applied the low rg ball will have more revolutions.  


Boo-yah!  Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!  Go me!  It's my birthday!

SH

n00dlejester

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2008, 03:03:48 PM »
I lose
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1MechEng

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2008, 03:22:13 PM »
Here's the physics:
Rg is a measure of the approximate center of mass of an object from a rotational axis. If the mass of the balls are the same, but the Rg is different, then the rotational moment of inertia (I = k * M * Rg^2) will be different. Lower Rg means lower moment of inertia.
Torque is a time-derivative of the angular momentum of an object. Torque is equal to the moment of inertia (I) times the angular velocity (w).
If the same torque is applied, the lower Rg will produce a lower moment of inertia. Thus, the angular velocity will be higher.
QED
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Dan

livespive

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2008, 03:32:30 PM »
quote:
Here's the physics:
Rg is a measure of the approximate center of mass of an object from a rotational axis. If the mass of the balls are the same, but the Rg is different, then the rotational moment of inertia (I = k * M * Rg^2) will be different. Lower Rg means lower moment of inertia.
Torque is a time-derivative of the angular momentum of an object. Torque is equal to the moment of inertia (I) times the angular velocity (w).
If the same torque is applied, the lower Rg will produce a lower moment of inertia. Thus, the angular velocity will be higher.
QED
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Dan
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I agree, I just think that the question should have been stated in terms of the of the release being the same, not the RPM.  Stating that the RPM's were the same off of the hand has forced the item that you wanted to be a variable, to be a constant.
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dR3w

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2008, 03:39:37 PM »
I had this discussion with Ron before, but he didn't believe me.

(I corrected the units with the help of a fellow poster)


Do balls with different RGs have different initial ball speeds?

I read on a several web sites that the RG of a round object is equal to the square root of the Moment of inertia divided by weight.

If I understand this correctly then RG = (IM/BallWeight)^0.5.  where the term  ^0.5   means the square root for you non-engineering folk.


Thus:   IM^0.5=RG*BallWeight^0.5  or IM = RG^2 * Ball Weight

In typical US units, IM or Moment of Inertia has the units lbm-ft^2  (apparently these are in lbm-in^2.)

It is strange to think that Rg has units of feet (again in inches not feet),  If that is the case, then I would think that the manufacturers would have to specify the units of RG, because the number would be different for US units and SI units.

An Rg of 2.6 in  would be equal to 0.06604 meters.  Since ball manufacturers in the US give us ball weights in pounds, then I will assume for this exercise that RG is measured in US units and thus lbm-in^2


So lets say you have a 15 lb ball with an RG of 2.6, thus the IM would   = 2.6^2 * 15 or 101.4 lbm-in^2  .  The equivalent Moment of Inertia for a ball with an RG of 2.45 would be 90.0375.


For a bowler who puts 300 RPM on a typical throw, let us figure out the Torque that he is applying.


Since Torque = IM * alpha then alpha = Torque/IM.   Unfortunately alpha is radial acceleration, and not radial speed or RPMs.


So what is the difference between acceleration and speed?  Well lets just assume that in our experiment that the bowler applies a torque, and accelerates the ball from 0 RPM to 300 RPM (as it leaves his fingers) in one tenth of a second.  Thus alpha = ( Initial Speed - Final  Speed) / time or  (0-300)/0.1 = 3000 rpm/second or 50 revs/second^2 ... x 2 pi = 314 rad/s^2.

Thus Torque for the 2.6 Rg ball would be ... (101.4  lbm-in^2) * (314 rad/s^2) = 31,730.08 lbm-in^2- rad/ sec^2

Since US units are really screwy, let me tell you that typically torque is force through a distance or lbf-ft.  1 lbf = 32.2 lbm-ft/sec^2  So torque is 1 lbf-ft = 32.2 lbm-ft^2/sec^2  

After all conversions, the torque would be 6.87 lbf-ft


Since the torque that we apply on the ball is the same, for a good bowler with consistent release, regardless of the ball moment of inertia, let us see if we get a different speed for the lower RG ball.

With T = 6.87 and IM = 90.0375 then alpha is 56.308 revs/s^2 = 353.79 rad/s^2.

With the same 0.1 time of force application, then the final velocity leaving the bowlers hand would be ... 337 RPM.

So an RG diff of  two balls with 2.45 to 2.6  would equate to revs of 337 to 300.  Thus a 6.1% RG diff is equivalent to  12.3% increase in RPMs


Now we both know that a bowling ball is a little more complicated that this.  The RG is not fixed, and depending on where you put the pin, and how you drill an extra hole, you do vary the moment of inertia.  But in general, I feel fairly confident about these calculations.  

One thing I wasn't sure of at first was using 0.1 seconds as the period of time to accelerate the ball, but I feel that this is ok.  If I had chose 0.2 or 0.5 or any other number it really wouldn't matter in the calculation, as long as a I used the same number for both balls.  The ball is accelerated only while the force is being applied.  

I guess I could be talked into thinking that the period of time that it takes to accelerate a lower RG ball would be quicker, and thus would leave the persons hand sooner, but I don't think that this is the case either.


Small reference below:
Q:   Please could you define for me the Radius of Gyration in the context of a Flywheel? Thankyou.
   
A:   
The radius of gyration is defined as (I/M)^1/2, or the square root of the moment of inertia divided by mass. The moment of inertia is an important thing to know when solving problems that have to do with how things rotate. The equation for moment of inertia is different depending on the shape of the object, but for a flywheel (basically a solid disk), it's I=1/2MR^2, where M is the mass and R is the radius of the flywheel. Putting this into the equation from before, we find that the radius of gyration for a flywheel is R*(1/2)^1/2, or 0.707*R.

The units of moment of inertia are mass*distance^2, so if you divide by mass and take the square root, you get something with units of just distance (a.k.a. the radius of gyration). Conceptually, the radius of gyration is the distance that, if the entire mass of the object were all packed together at only that radius, would give you the same moment of inertia. That is, if you were to take the entire mass of the disk-shaped flywheel with some radius and pack it into a narrow donut whose radius is the flywheel's radius of gyration, they'd both have the same moment of inertia. With the same moment of inertia, they will behave very similarly when you spin them.



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Edited on 4/16/2008 10:53 AM

batbowler

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2008, 03:43:25 PM »
Energy has a lot to do with rotation! If you lose energy you lose rotation(revs) and the burns up and rolls out! Just my $.02 worth, Bruce
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Ahhbach

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2008, 03:47:37 PM »
All of the above is nice anyone of you can come to my house and help my kid with his physics homework.  

You all have 'Blinded me with science'

Ahh


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livespive

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2008, 03:59:28 PM »
lol
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chitown

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2008, 04:25:03 PM »
I would have to say there wouldn't be any difference.  I think a low RG ball revs up quicker but not more than a high RG ball.

If ball makers get to the point where they can generate additional revs just from tweaking the core some how they will make a killing in sales! lol

I can picture 10 years from now the ball makers will be selling bowling balls that produce additional 100 rpm on top of what the bowler can create on his own. lol

Ishmael

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2008, 08:33:58 AM »
quote:
I would have to say there wouldn't be any difference. I think a low RG ball revs up quicker but not more than a high RG ball.


Say what?  Your gonna have to explain that one...

Simple test.  Take your spare ball (usually 3 piece = high rg) and throw it and watch the revs.  Then take your strike ball (lower rg) and throw it and watch the revs.  The strike ball is going to have a higher rev rate than the spare ball if you use the same release.  This is really basic physics.  Nothing to argue about.

nospareball

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2008, 10:55:29 AM »
quote:
I would have to say there wouldn't be any difference.  I think a low RG ball revs up quicker but not more than a high RG ball.

If ball makers get to the point where they can generate additional revs just from tweaking the core some how they will make a killing in sales! lol

I can picture 10 years from now the ball makers will be selling bowling balls that produce additional 100 rpm on top of what the bowler can create on his own. lol


The revving up of a ball that you see down the lane is caused by the migration of the spin axis from a higher RG value to a lower one.  The RG differential also has an impact on how quickly a ball will rev up, as does how you drill it.  The USBC did a study on axis migration and I believe it was found that in most cases the axis will migrate to a lower RG as the ball flares.  The affect is the same as the figure skater bringing her arms in during a spin.
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shelley

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Re: I want to play ! RG
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2008, 02:59:15 PM »
quote:
The revving up of a ball that you see down the lane is caused by the migration of the spin axis from a higher RG value to a lower one.


Not to mention that has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic.

SH