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Author Topic: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?  (Read 22053 times)

Juggernaut

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 OK, lets put ourselves in the USBC's shoes. 

 Bowling manufacturers are more than well aquainted with the regulations concerning any bowling equipment they manufacture. They know the upper limits at which they are allowed to go, and are aware that nothing beyond that point is acceptable.

 Pushing the upper limits is a manufacturing choice a private company makes.


 Then, you get an "anonymous" package from someone. In this package are products from that private company that have previously been approved, but a note contained in the package leads you to believe that someone has found out that not all those previously approved products are being made within those accepted limits. This leads to you testing the products to either confirm the "allegation", or deny it.

 After quite thorough testing, you find the "allegation" to have merit, and products have been found that are above the acceptable limits, at too high a percentage to simply ignore.

 NOW WHAT?


 Comparisons have been made to other situations, but many of those really don't work here at all. Take the speed limit one for instance.

 If the speed limit is 60mph, and you are doing 61mph, you probably aren't getting ticketed, simply because there are lots of others going far further past the limit than you are.

 BUT, what if EVERYONE ELSE is going 60mph or less? Then, you stand out as the lone person breaking the rules, and are far more likely to be picked out and ticketed, right?


 Motiv broke the rules. I believe it was inadvertently, but that is also irrelevant as it doesn't matter why, or how, the rules were broken, only that they were.

 USBC is a rule making, rule enforcing, governing body, who's job it is to ensure those rules are being followed, and enforce them when they are not.

 So really, HONESTLY, what were their options? And, what would you have done if YOU were the sole entity in charge of making sure EVERYBODY follows ALL the rules to the letter?
Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

 

avabob

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #91 on: March 21, 2016, 03:25:47 PM »
When you really think about it this could open up a huge can of worms.  RG and diff are dynamic balance measures that, I suspect, are not spot checked on subsequent runs of balls.  Lots of balls are advertised at the lowest rg, for example.  I wonder how many other balls have come off the lines of all manufacturers that did not meet dynamic specs

WOWZERS

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #92 on: March 21, 2016, 03:48:13 PM »
I would venture to say many more avabob.

bambalam

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #93 on: March 21, 2016, 03:59:06 PM »
When a victorious NASCAR car is disqualified because some tolerance or the height of the car or whatever they check is ruled out of spec, I am sure there are people saying it didn't matter because the violation was only (insert whatever arbitrary small number that gets your blood boiling) and the driver would have won if it was only slightly different anyway. But rules are rules.

That's the way it is in the world. Pity not required.

s_hemker

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2016, 04:05:53 PM »
When a victorious NASCAR car is disqualified because some tolerance or the height of the car or whatever they check is ruled out of spec, I am sure there are people saying it didn't matter because the violation was only (insert whatever arbitrary small number that gets your blood boiling) and the driver would have won if it was only slightly different anyway. But rules are rules.

That's the way it is in the world. Pity not required.

So this is what you are saying and endorsing with your statement "it's only cheating if you get caught." Am I correct in assuming that?

Ken De Beasto

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2016, 04:34:24 PM »
I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that but at the same time tell me why Jackal and Jackal Carnage are banned for use in USBC sanctioned events yet someone can walk in with a Jackal Pro or Jackal Sapphire (or any other Raptor series utilizing the same core) but they are allowed to use those? I get these balls are off spec and all but the Sapphire and Pro are the exact same balls yet they can be freely used?
What do you mean you don't get why those balls got banned.... And how are all the jackals the same ball they have different cover stocks...

Was my post hard to understand? Please tell me what a coverstock has to do with the inner core specifications? What we have at hand is 2 balls that got banned yet the entire Raptor series as well as the two overseas jackald are approved for use with the exact same cores inside of them. That's why I am not sure why they have been banned. Don't tell me "they are illegal blah blah blah" that's fine I understand they are out of "compliance" but the USBC revoking approval on 2 balls yet they let all the other ones out there with the same .060 diff core loaded up in them stay on the approved list. They didn't test them and can't I know that. Just proves the USBC made a wrong choice in doing anything but simply stopping production and fining Motiv the cost it would be to replace them.

So your saying the two current jackals should not be banned because the other two jackal haven't been tested

You sir, clearly don't comprehend anything. Good day.

Yea I clearly dont understand. Your saying they are the same ball.... I am saying they are not the same ball. You say they are the same ball because of the core??? As i brought up before the coverstock are different thus why they are different balls. They might have same core but does not make the balls the same.... I do not see anywhere in the statement made by USBC they are banning the core....

And when i ask the question why you dont get it you said "I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that" if you understand why the ball got banned, why do you start off by saying im not sure why either ball is banned then you say yes I get it. All I asked was what you mean you dont get it but you get it and yes clearly I dont understand.

bambalam

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2016, 04:38:10 PM »
Not at all. There are rules and limits. You violate them, you pay the price.

Over the limit is a violation. How much it matters is a different debate I think.

I suspect a lot of people protesting because .0014 is a very small number (.0600 is as well, 0.014 is over 2% high)  also make a judgement on a balls performance or worth based in large part on the RG and diff numbers. So the numbers are important, the magnitude of the importance is a personal thing I guess.

With any measurement, if it gets divided into smaller and smaller increments then the difference between two measurements becomes more insignificant. But exceeding a spec is not arbitrary, not a judgment call. It is a boundary.

Also, if you read the USBC ball specs, the current approval process requires a manufacturer to provide data showing that less than 0.6% of balls will exceed the upper limit. For a sample to contain over 50% is not a small change.

s_hemker

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2016, 04:39:18 PM »
I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that but at the same time tell me why Jackal and Jackal Carnage are banned for use in USBC sanctioned events yet someone can walk in with a Jackal Pro or Jackal Sapphire (or any other Raptor series utilizing the same core) but they are allowed to use those? I get these balls are off spec and all but the Sapphire and Pro are the exact same balls yet they can be freely used?
What do you mean you don't get why those balls got banned.... And how are all the jackals the same ball they have different cover stocks...

Was my post hard to understand? Please tell me what a coverstock has to do with the inner core specifications? What we have at hand is 2 balls that got banned yet the entire Raptor series as well as the two overseas jackald are approved for use with the exact same cores inside of them. That's why I am not sure why they have been banned. Don't tell me "they are illegal blah blah blah" that's fine I understand they are out of "compliance" but the USBC revoking approval on 2 balls yet they let all the other ones out there with the same .060 diff core loaded up in them stay on the approved list. They didn't test them and can't I know that. Just proves the USBC made a wrong choice in doing anything but simply stopping production and fining Motiv the cost it would be to replace them.

So your saying the two current jackals should not be banned because the other two jackal haven't been tested

You sir, clearly don't comprehend anything. Good day.

Yea I clearly dont understand. Your saying they are the same ball.... I am saying they are not the same ball. You say they are the same ball because of the core??? As i brought up before the coverstock are different thus why they are different balls. They might have same core but does not make the balls the same.... I do not see anywhere in the statement made by USBC they are banning the core....

And when i ask the question why you dont get it you said "I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that" if you understand why the ball got banned, why do you start off by saying im not sure why either ball is banned then you say yes I get it. All I asked was what you mean you dont get it but you get it and yes clearly I dont understand.

Ken a cover has nothing to do with the core specifications stop being ignorant.

And I said I understand why they got banned BUT if they are being banned because of a core specification shouldn't ALL balls with that core be banned? My point is if they are going to enforce this kind of BS shouldn't they be consistent with the BS they are enforcing?

Strider

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2016, 05:08:49 PM »
Is it possible that as time went on, something changed with core - different resin supplier, slight density change, sloppy QC ... that made the new version of the core flare just a bit more to push it out of spec?  That would justify banning the new versions while leaving the others?  A worse possibility is that if all of the balls with the same core measured high, all would illegal and the USBC is afraid of banning that many balls now?

Ken De Beasto

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2016, 05:11:29 PM »
Im not being ignorant Im telling you they are not the same exact ball. Same exact core yes....

s_hemker

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2016, 05:20:18 PM »
Is it possible that as time went on, something changed with core - different resin supplier, slight density change, sloppy QC ... that made the new version of the core flare just a bit more to push it out of spec?  That would justify banning the new versions while leaving the others?  A worse possibility is that if all of the balls with the same core measured high, all would illegal and the USBC is afraid of banning that many balls now?

There is no way of knowing. The overseas versions and the Raptor series cannot be tested. The USBC won't ban all of the balls with the .060 core in it because they cannot prove they will exceed the limits. Since they are the same cores with the same .060 diff specification they would most likely fail the same tests performed on the two "banned" Jackals. The point I am trying to make is that a bowler has a Jackal and another bowler has a Jackal Sapphire the Jackal is illegal while the Jackal Sapphire is legal? Essentially if the Jackal was discontinued 2 months ago it would still be approved today.

WOWZERS

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2016, 05:25:54 PM »
No, not all balls with the core should be banned. If the scenario is playing out in rumors is true that the core molds expanded from use, then when the core molds were the correct size, the cores were made as expected and the ball did not exceed the max diff.

Problem: I am sure the USBC never did field testing of the ball, or any ball, so we do not know how long this has been an issue. So the USBC cannot do any predrilled testing on the balls. Tough to outlaw a ball the USBC cannot test to make a determination if the finished undrilled product falls inside or outside of the USBC regs.

If Motiv were to produce another ball with the same core, same materials, same densities, I would like to think that any future balls with the same supposed core would be subject to more stringent USBC inspections, prior to ball approval and also field tests if the ball receives approval. I do not expect Motiv to use the same core (at least the same molds) maybe lower the diff just a nudge to ensure any manufacturing tolerances would still be under the max diff.


Strider...I had suggested in one of the 20 threads the theory that a supplier delivered a raw material of a different density or a different material all together. This ties back to a poor QC program at Motiv. Motiv should have known if the raw material was different from previously received raw materials. Further, Motiv should have known these balls were coming off the line above the max diff allowed. All point to either the QC person or department asleep at the switch.

Either that person(s) is/are fired, or there is some major hiring about to commence at Motiv to ensure this never occurs again.


s_hemker

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #102 on: March 21, 2016, 05:51:34 PM »
No, not all balls with the core should be banned. If the scenario is playing out in rumors is true that the core molds expanded from use, then when the core molds were the correct size, the cores were made as expected and the ball did not exceed the max diff.

Problem: I am sure the USBC never did field testing of the ball, or any ball, so we do not know how long this has been an issue. So the USBC cannot do any predrilled testing on the balls. Tough to outlaw a ball the USBC cannot test to make a determination if the finished undrilled product falls inside or outside of the USBC regs.

If Motiv were to produce another ball with the same core, same materials, same densities, I would like to think that any future balls with the same supposed core would be subject to more stringent USBC inspections, prior to ball approval and also field tests if the ball receives approval. I do not expect Motiv to use the same core (at least the same molds) maybe lower the diff just a nudge to ensure any manufacturing tolerances would still be under the max diff.


Strider...I had suggested in one of the 20 threads the theory that a supplier delivered a raw material of a different density or a different material all together. This ties back to a poor QC program at Motiv. Motiv should have known if the raw material was different from previously received raw materials. Further, Motiv should have known these balls were coming off the line above the max diff allowed. All point to either the QC person or department asleep at the switch.

Either that person(s) is/are fired, or there is some major hiring about to commence at Motiv to ensure this never occurs again.



I don't believe all balls with that core should be banned, I just don't understand how you can ban the two when there is a high probability that more of them out there fall into the same specifications. They should have stopped production fined Motiv however much it would have been projected to cost them to replace the balls they are now having to replace and slap them with probation. Who wins? The average bowler wins. They get to keep their ball that is not gaining any competitive advantage with, and USBC gets injected with the fine money that maybe they can do something productive with. I am not a USBC hater or lover, usually indifferent on the subject, but this should have been handled way differently.

WOWZERS

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #103 on: March 21, 2016, 06:13:05 PM »
I know this is way too much to ask for, but too bad Motiv didn't give an option to refund the ball in cash. I only state this because what if a person had decided between one of the Jackals and maybe the Lock/Menace/Swerve/whatever for heavy oil. Now the bowler is stuck with another Motiv ball that may not fit anywhere he/she wants.

I guess you can sell it on ebay/somewhere, but there is no guarantee you will receive the  amount you put into the ball to start.

Oh well.

MI 2 AZ

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2016, 08:14:50 PM »
So, is there any way to test a core by itself to see if it is in spec?

If you need the ball to perform the tests, then you can't ban the core, you have to ban the ball?

If you can't obtain a significant amount of the undrilled balls to perform the tests to get a reliable sampling (overseas so not available locally or so long out of production that not many are left on the market), then you can't ban the ball?

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Strapper_Squared

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2016, 11:25:07 AM »
Plus, core numbers change after drilling...
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