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Author Topic: Interesting league issue - PROBLEM SOLVED.  (Read 10457 times)

milorafferty

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Interesting league issue - PROBLEM SOLVED.
« on: May 04, 2015, 10:18:03 AM »
I need help understanding where I am wrong here, so maybe one of the experienced league bowlers here can show me the light.


One of my leagues finished our season last night with sweepers, roll-offs, season awards etc. We all received our "pennies" for point money and sweepers. Then the season awards were paid out.


The league is a lower skill level mixed league with a handful of scratch bowlers mixed in on a few teams. The handicap totally favors the higher average bowlers(80% of 200) and on my team I had one vacant(140) and two new bowlers who are really just learning the game. We joined this league as a way for them to get better and have a good introduction to the game. This is a league where if you won every point and award, you still only have lunch money.


OK, now the problem I have trouble understanding. One bowler, Gary, had the high scratch series at 811 and none of the handicap bowlers had a handicap series that was higher. The closest was a 772 scratch series and with handicap it came to 806. The league paid the 806 as the season high series winner. This baffles me to no end, however, it gets better.


I had the only scratch 300 game in the league this season. The closest to me was another scratch bowler who shot a 298. The league paid out the 298 as the high game for the season. The closest true handicap bowler high game was 290, but that bowler didn't win anything.


When I questioned the league secretary and president about this, they both immediately said "that's just the way they do it here".


I've ran this through my mind since last night and just can not see a way that this is valid.


Am I missing something??? The league doesn't use a negative handicap, so Gary's 811 was actually the high handicap series and my 300 was the high handicap game. I'm confused.


 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 03:52:24 PM by milorafferty »
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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2015, 11:29:32 AM »
Quote from: Aloarjr810 on May 04, 2015, 11:15:14 AM
Quote from: milorafferty on May 04, 2015, 10:52:43 AM


Now that is a good question and it has an added twist. The president and sec/tres are the two women who WOULD have won the high game and series scratch. But they lost due to handicap. But no, neither Gary nor I won anything else. The league didn't pay out the scratch awards at all. Which in my way of thinking should have made us the winners of the handicap award.

If a league doesn't pay out Scratch awards And a bowler has a zero (0) handicap.

Their scratch scores still qualify for "Handicap" awards, because scratch scores plus zero handicap is considered a legitimate handicap score.

I seen this come up before and I believe it was the USBC that said zero handicap counts as a legitimate handicap.

So Your 300 plus 0 handicap, gives you a handicap game of 300. So if no other handicap score is over 300. You should get high handicap game award.

That was the point I made last night. Not just about my 300 game, but also about Gary's 811. He shot 811 scratch. The guy who "won" the award shot a 772 scratch and with his handicap, it still only brought him to 806. Gary had the high series.

To Michelle's point, I agree, but the first time we saw any prize breakdown was last night as the league started shadow. And there was no breakdown for the season awards, just for point money and sweeper. The I didn't know about how the season awards were being paid until after they had already paid them out. Then I ask about the scratch and was told they didn't have the money to pay scratch awards, by the league president.

Here is another bit of a twist to this that I find curious. All season, my 300 game and Gary's 811 season was listed as the "high handicap game" and "high handicap series" on the league sheet. The 298 and 806 was listed as the high scratch. Until this week, when it was reversed and the 298 and 806 was listed as the high handicap and our scores were placed as the scratch scores.
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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2015, 11:30:15 AM »
Quote from: xrayjay on May 04, 2015, 11:22:50 AM
Milo did we bowl the same league???? hahahaa  I remember I finished the season in a handicap league with the highest series, but i got nothing.  It wasn't much money, but that year my team won and we got a bunch of money as a team.  But I got nothing for high series..... that was my last year in that league....

THis year, I have the highest series scratch...will see if I get anyting for it...

LOL, did they pay someone else though?
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JOE FALCO

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 11:33:59 AM »
Question .. In many Handicap leagues a bowler cannot collect for more then one prize .. did the bowler who bowled 300 collect a different prize?
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Jorge300

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2015, 11:35:49 AM »
Milo,
    I think you have a legitimate complaint. We just had our league ending sweeper in Reno (in which one bowler started out with 300-300 and it wasn't me  :( ) so this is fresh in my mind. We did have both Scratch and Handicap prizes. Our league also has a rule that you can only win one, so a bunch of people won for a 300 game and that changed the standing for High Series as a couple of scores were removed because they got more for tying for high game. We did not run into this issue, because for the men, the high handicap games were all over 300, so no scratch bowlers were in the running, but I would assume there was a year were the handicap game was lower then 300, then the highest scratch score under 300 (299, 298) would win (as all those that tie at 300 would win Scratch) or vice-a versa.

The only other thing I might question was how the high game/series was determined. Was it strictly on score or was it pins over average? I ran into this one year where the league felt that there were too many higher average bowlers coming into the league so the awards were turned into Pins over Average in order to hurt the chances of the higher average bowlers even more. Is it possible your league made the same switch?
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Jorge300

milorafferty

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2015, 11:49:01 AM »
Quote from: Jorge300 on May 04, 2015, 11:35:49 AM
Milo,
    I think you have a legitimate complaint. We just had our league ending sweeper in Reno (in which one bowler started out with 300-300 and it wasn't me  :( ) so this is fresh in my mind. We did have both Scratch and Handicap prizes. Our league also has a rule that you can only win one, so a bunch of people won for a 300 game and that changed the standing for High Series as a couple of scores were removed because they got more for tying for high game. We did not run into this issue, because for the men, the high handicap games were all over 300, so no scratch bowlers were in the running, but I would assume there was a year were the handicap game was lower then 300, then the highest scratch score under 300 (299, 298) would win (as all those that tie at 300 would win Scratch) or vice-a versa.

The only other thing I might question was how the high game/series was determined. Was it strictly on score or was it pins over average? I ran into this one year where the league felt that there were too many higher average bowlers coming into the league so the awards were turned into Pins over Average in order to hurt the chances of the higher average bowlers even more. Is it possible your league made the same switch?

I considered that part, and that reasoning works to knock Gary out of the High Series, but for game, the guy with the 298 was scratch also. And if it was pins over average, there was a 130 something guy who had a 290 handicap game so he would have blown us both out of the water.

I think this was actually a mistake, but they didn't even offer to look at it last night. That's what has me more upset than anything. Telling me, "that's how they do it here" isn't enough to keep me from becoming a total a$$ hole about this. LOL

I'm purposely not mentioning the name of the bowling alley until I give them a chance to correct this. If they don't, then I will make sure everyone knows. Including Facebook, yelp, twitter, etc, etc.
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Jorge300

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2015, 12:05:03 PM »
Milo,
    If that is the case, then I am at a loss. Only thing is a genuine mistake or they want to make sure that the higher average bowlers don't win and purposely gave it to others.
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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2015, 12:10:30 PM »
Quote from: Jorge300 on May 04, 2015, 12:05:03 PM
Milo,
    If that is the case, then I am at a loss. Only thing is a genuine mistake or they want to make sure that the higher average bowlers don't win and purposely gave it to others.

You and me both brother. I have tried looking at this from every angle I can think of, but I'm obviously missing something. I need it 'splained to me. LOL
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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2015, 12:15:39 PM »
Maybe I jumped the gun here. I just called the bowling alley to speak to the league coordinator and was informed that the league secretary has already called them this morning about the issue. They are "trying to figure out what happened" according to the person who answered the phone. LOL

If they take care of it, then I'm good. Mistakes happen, but it could have been handled better last night instead of being told "that's how they do it here". LOL
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Jorge300

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2015, 12:18:49 PM »
While it may be a simple mistake, the answer/explanation you were given last night was unacceptable. So no, I don't think you jumped the gun at all. You were probably more diplomatic about it than I would have been. And it's not about the money, it's just about what's right and what is wrong.
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xrayjay

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2015, 12:46:28 PM »
Quote from: milorafferty on May 04, 2015, 11:30:15 AM
Quote from: xrayjay on May 04, 2015, 11:22:50 AM
Milo did we bowl the same league???? hahahaa  I remember I finished the season in a handicap league with the highest series, but i got nothing.  It wasn't much money, but that year my team won and we got a bunch of money as a team.  But I got nothing for high series..... that was my last year in that league....

THis year, I have the highest series scratch...will see if I get anyting for it...

LOL, did they pay someone else though?

yes with handciap, which was still lower than mine was scratch....."to be fair" was what I remember when my teammate complained about it...he was more irritated than I was... He actually left bowling for good.. good bowler too.
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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2015, 12:54:48 PM »
Quote from: xrayjay on May 04, 2015, 12:46:28 PM
Quote from: milorafferty on May 04, 2015, 11:30:15 AM
Quote from: xrayjay on May 04, 2015, 11:22:50 AM
Milo did we bowl the same league???? hahahaa  I remember I finished the season in a handicap league with the highest series, but i got nothing.  It wasn't much money, but that year my team won and we got a bunch of money as a team.  But I got nothing for high series..... that was my last year in that league....

THis year, I have the highest series scratch...will see if I get anyting for it...

LOL, did they pay someone else though?

yes with handciap, which was still lower than mine was scratch....."to be fair" was what I remember when my teammate complained about it...he was more irritated than I was... He actually left bowling for good.. good bowler too.

That would get me a little upset, but maybe it was in the rules. And I'm worried about the two bowlers who was on my team. I only joined this handicap league so they would have a good experience as I usually only bowl scratch leagues.

They both left last night with a bad impression of league bowling. There were a few other issues during the season that they found irritating, but I think last night left a particularly bad taste in their mouth. Hopefully, the people involved will do the right thing.
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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2015, 03:52:03 PM »
The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Interesting league issue.
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2015, 03:54:43 PM »
Quote from: milorafferty on May 04, 2015, 03:52:03 PM
The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.

Good.  I was wondering WTF was going on.....I guess it didn't make sense b/c......it didn't make sense!   :P
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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting league issue - PROBLEM SOLVED.
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2015, 04:02:30 PM »
Quote from: Good Times Good Times on May 04, 2015, 03:54:43 PM
Quote from: milorafferty on May 04, 2015, 03:52:03 PM
The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.

Good.  I was wondering WTF was going on.....I guess it didn't make sense b/c......it didn't make sense!   :P

She was just going off the league sheet as it was listed. The league doesn't pay the scratch awards and all season Gary and I were both listed for the handicap game and series highs and the two bowlers who were given the awards were listed as scratch. For some reason, the last week, the listings got reversed to where Gary and I were listed as scratch and the other two were handicap. So she automatically paid out the handicap winners as the league rules state.

She mentioned that the league has never had this issue before, so she didn't really think about what I was asking about at the time.

 I'm curious how the league sheet changed on the last week. As someone who writes computer programs for a living, I find it odd that something like that would change on it's own.
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MI 2 AZ

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Re: Interesting league issue - PROBLEM SOLVED.
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2015, 04:22:00 PM »
Quote from: milorafferty on May 04, 2015, 04:02:30 PM
Quote from: Good Times Good Times on May 04, 2015, 03:54:43 PM
Quote from: milorafferty on May 04, 2015, 03:52:03 PM
The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.

Good.  I was wondering WTF was going on.....I guess it didn't make sense b/c......it didn't make sense!   :P

She was just going off the league sheet as it was listed. The league doesn't pay the scratch awards and all season Gary and I were both listed for the handicap game and series highs and the two bowlers who were given the awards were listed as scratch. For some reason, the last week, the listings got reversed to where Gary and I were listed as scratch and the other two were handicap. So she automatically paid out the handicap winners as the league rules state.

She mentioned that the league has never had this issue before, so she didn't really think about what I was asking about at the time.

 I'm curious how the league sheet changed on the last week. As someone who writes computer programs for a living, I find it odd that something like that would change on it's own.


We used to have a term for that when I worked in air traffic control maintenance - Operator Error.

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