BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: milorafferty on May 04, 2015, 10:18:03 AM
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I need help understanding where I am wrong here, so maybe one of the experienced league bowlers here can show me the light.
One of my leagues finished our season last night with sweepers, roll-offs, season awards etc. We all received our "pennies" for point money and sweepers. Then the season awards were paid out.
The league is a lower skill level mixed league with a handful of scratch bowlers mixed in on a few teams. The handicap totally favors the higher average bowlers(80% of 200) and on my team I had one vacant(140) and two new bowlers who are really just learning the game. We joined this league as a way for them to get better and have a good introduction to the game. This is a league where if you won every point and award, you still only have lunch money.
OK, now the problem I have trouble understanding. One bowler, Gary, had the high scratch series at 811 and none of the handicap bowlers had a handicap series that was higher. The closest was a 772 scratch series and with handicap it came to 806. The league paid the 806 as the season high series winner. This baffles me to no end, however, it gets better.
I had the only scratch 300 game in the league this season. The closest to me was another scratch bowler who shot a 298. The league paid out the 298 as the high game for the season. The closest true handicap bowler high game was 290, but that bowler didn't win anything.
When I questioned the league secretary and president about this, they both immediately said "that's just the way they do it here".
I've ran this through my mind since last night and just can not see a way that this is valid.
Am I missing something??? The league doesn't use a negative handicap, so Gary's 811 was actually the high handicap series and my 300 was the high handicap game. I'm confused.
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Seems a little odd that your league doesn't have handicap and scratch awards. I've never bowled in a handicap league that doesn't recognize both. I'm thinking you could contact your local area USBC association President and see what they say.
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So, 2nd place is first place? ???
Usually, when the logical explanation is "that's just the way they do it here" the competence of those in charge immediately is questioned by me.
So I would posit, 2nd place is first place and then ask them to validate that.
I think you have a legitimate complaint and if it is a sanctioned league you can damn sure bet I'm pressing THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE w/USBC.
Please keep us updated, I can't wait to hear the reasoning (or lack thereof).
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Milo did they win the scratch version of these awards? My house has a rule that the scratch winner can't take the handicap prize. In your instance your 300 wins the scratch award you can't also win the handicap award even though you had the highest handicap game also.
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Seems a little odd that your league doesn't have handicap and scratch awards. I've never bowled in a handicap league that doesn't recognize both. I'm thinking you could contact your local area USBC association President and see what they say.
That was the first excuse the league president gave me. Her direct quote was "We have enough money to pay both scratch and handicap." I'm fine with that as I tend to think these kind of handicap leagues should favor the lower average bowlers. But I actually WON the series high game, with or without handicap. Just as Gary won the season high series. LOL
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Milo did they win the scratch version of these awards? My house has a rule that the scratch winner can't take the handicap prize. In your instance your 300 wins the scratch award you can't also win the handicap award even though you had the highest handicap game also.
Now that is a good question and it has an added twist. The president and sec/tres are the two women who WOULD have won the high game and series scratch. But they lost due to handicap. But no, neither Gary nor I won anything else. The league didn't pay out the scratch awards at all. Which in my way of thinking should have made us the winners of the handicap award.
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So, 2nd place is first place? ???
Usually, when the logical explanation is "that's just the way they do it here" the competence of those in charge immediately is questioned by me.
So I would posit, 2nd place is first place and then ask them to validate that.
I think you have a legitimate complaint and if it is a sanctioned league you can damn sure bet I'm pressing THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE w/USBC.
Please keep us updated, I can't wait to hear the reasoning (or lack thereof).
Yes, I agree. It's only like $30 or something, but to me it's more the point of it. I'm waiting until the league coordinator comes to work at the bowling alley today to get an explanation of how it's supposed to work. If she can't tell me, then I'll be call the local association manager.
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Honestly, my biggest disappointment in this whole thing is how it looks to my two teammates. I joined this league with them thinking it would be a friendly, low pressure, social league where they could experience league bowling. I obviously chose the wrong league.
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So, 2nd place is first place? ???
Usually, when the logical explanation is "that's just the way they do it here" the competence of those in charge immediately is questioned by me.
So I would posit, 2nd place is first place and then ask them to validate that.
I think you have a legitimate complaint and if it is a sanctioned league you can damn sure bet I'm pressing THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE w/USBC.
Please keep us updated, I can't wait to hear the reasoning (or lack thereof).
Yes, I agree. It's only like $30 or something, but to me it's more the point of it. I'm waiting until the league coordinator comes to work at the bowling alley today to get an explanation of how it's supposed to work. If she can't tell me, then I'll be call the local association manager.
I completely agree, it's principle.
One thing I do wonder, is the league coordinator someone other than the secretary or president? I'm surprised the secretary and president offered such a flippant response and no explanation (or even attempt to explain really). That's just mind-boggling.
But, I'm with you, I'd bring it to the association manager if no satisfactory response is offered on principle alone. It's not about the money, it's about the reasoning.
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Now that is a good question and it has an added twist. The president and sec/tres are the two women who WOULD have won the high game and series scratch. But they lost due to handicap. But no, neither Gary nor I won anything else. The league didn't pay out the scratch awards at all. Which in my way of thinking should have made us the winners of the handicap award.
If a league doesn't pay out Scratch awards And a bowler has a zero (0) handicap.
Their scratch scores still qualify for "Handicap" awards, because scratch scores plus zero handicap is considered a legitimate handicap score.
I seen this come up before and I believe it was the USBC that said zero handicap counts as a legitimate handicap.
So Your 300 plus 0 handicap, gives you a handicap game of 300. So if no other handicap score is over 300. You should get high handicap game award.
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U gotta vote to make a change!
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Broader question is how the prize fund distribution was shown when the league voted. End of the season should NEVER be the first time a team saw the breakdowns...the league is supposed to vote on such things.
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Now that is a good question and it has an added twist. The president and sec/tres are the two women who WOULD have won the high game and series scratch. But they lost due to handicap. But no, neither Gary nor I won anything else. The league didn't pay out the scratch awards at all. Which in my way of thinking should have made us the winners of the handicap award.
If a league doesn't pay out Scratch awards And a bowler has a zero (0) handicap.
Their scratch scores still qualify for "Handicap" awards, because scratch scores plus zero handicap is considered a legitimate handicap score.
I seen this come up before and I believe it was the USBC that said zero handicap counts as a legitimate handicap.
So Your 300 plus 0 handicap, gives you a handicap game of 300. So if no other handicap score is over 300. You should get high handicap game award.
I agree I've never bowled a league that didn't pay put both scratch and handicap but if your only paying handicap the winner should be whoever had the highest total. In you case pinfall + 0= winner
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Milo did we bowl the same league???? hahahaa I remember I finished the season in a handicap league with the highest series, but i got nothing. It wasn't much money, but that year my team won and we got a bunch of money as a team. But I got nothing for high series..... that was my last year in that league....
THis year, I have the highest series scratch...will see if I get anyting for it...
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Broader question is how the prize fund distribution was shown when the league voted. End of the season should NEVER be the first time a team saw the breakdowns...the league is supposed to vote on such things.
Excellent point!
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Now that is a good question and it has an added twist. The president and sec/tres are the two women who WOULD have won the high game and series scratch. But they lost due to handicap. But no, neither Gary nor I won anything else. The league didn't pay out the scratch awards at all. Which in my way of thinking should have made us the winners of the handicap award.
If a league doesn't pay out Scratch awards And a bowler has a zero (0) handicap.
Their scratch scores still qualify for "Handicap" awards, because scratch scores plus zero handicap is considered a legitimate handicap score.
I seen this come up before and I believe it was the USBC that said zero handicap counts as a legitimate handicap.
So Your 300 plus 0 handicap, gives you a handicap game of 300. So if no other handicap score is over 300. You should get high handicap game award.
That was the point I made last night. Not just about my 300 game, but also about Gary's 811. He shot 811 scratch. The guy who "won" the award shot a 772 scratch and with his handicap, it still only brought him to 806. Gary had the high series.
To Michelle's point, I agree, but the first time we saw any prize breakdown was last night as the league started shadow. And there was no breakdown for the season awards, just for point money and sweeper. The I didn't know about how the season awards were being paid until after they had already paid them out. Then I ask about the scratch and was told they didn't have the money to pay scratch awards, by the league president.
Here is another bit of a twist to this that I find curious. All season, my 300 game and Gary's 811 season was listed as the "high handicap game" and "high handicap series" on the league sheet. The 298 and 806 was listed as the high scratch. Until this week, when it was reversed and the 298 and 806 was listed as the high handicap and our scores were placed as the scratch scores.
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Milo did we bowl the same league???? hahahaa I remember I finished the season in a handicap league with the highest series, but i got nothing. It wasn't much money, but that year my team won and we got a bunch of money as a team. But I got nothing for high series..... that was my last year in that league....
THis year, I have the highest series scratch...will see if I get anyting for it...
LOL, did they pay someone else though?
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Question .. In many Handicap leagues a bowler cannot collect for more then one prize .. did the bowler who bowled 300 collect a different prize?
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Milo,
I think you have a legitimate complaint. We just had our league ending sweeper in Reno (in which one bowler started out with 300-300 and it wasn't me :( ) so this is fresh in my mind. We did have both Scratch and Handicap prizes. Our league also has a rule that you can only win one, so a bunch of people won for a 300 game and that changed the standing for High Series as a couple of scores were removed because they got more for tying for high game. We did not run into this issue, because for the men, the high handicap games were all over 300, so no scratch bowlers were in the running, but I would assume there was a year were the handicap game was lower then 300, then the highest scratch score under 300 (299, 298) would win (as all those that tie at 300 would win Scratch) or vice-a versa.
The only other thing I might question was how the high game/series was determined. Was it strictly on score or was it pins over average? I ran into this one year where the league felt that there were too many higher average bowlers coming into the league so the awards were turned into Pins over Average in order to hurt the chances of the higher average bowlers even more. Is it possible your league made the same switch?
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Milo,
I think you have a legitimate complaint. We just had our league ending sweeper in Reno (in which one bowler started out with 300-300 and it wasn't me :( ) so this is fresh in my mind. We did have both Scratch and Handicap prizes. Our league also has a rule that you can only win one, so a bunch of people won for a 300 game and that changed the standing for High Series as a couple of scores were removed because they got more for tying for high game. We did not run into this issue, because for the men, the high handicap games were all over 300, so no scratch bowlers were in the running, but I would assume there was a year were the handicap game was lower then 300, then the highest scratch score under 300 (299, 298) would win (as all those that tie at 300 would win Scratch) or vice-a versa.
The only other thing I might question was how the high game/series was determined. Was it strictly on score or was it pins over average? I ran into this one year where the league felt that there were too many higher average bowlers coming into the league so the awards were turned into Pins over Average in order to hurt the chances of the higher average bowlers even more. Is it possible your league made the same switch?
I considered that part, and that reasoning works to knock Gary out of the High Series, but for game, the guy with the 298 was scratch also. And if it was pins over average, there was a 130 something guy who had a 290 handicap game so he would have blown us both out of the water.
I think this was actually a mistake, but they didn't even offer to look at it last night. That's what has me more upset than anything. Telling me, "that's how they do it here" isn't enough to keep me from becoming a total a$$ hole about this. LOL
I'm purposely not mentioning the name of the bowling alley until I give them a chance to correct this. If they don't, then I will make sure everyone knows. Including Facebook, yelp, twitter, etc, etc.
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Milo,
If that is the case, then I am at a loss. Only thing is a genuine mistake or they want to make sure that the higher average bowlers don't win and purposely gave it to others.
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Milo,
If that is the case, then I am at a loss. Only thing is a genuine mistake or they want to make sure that the higher average bowlers don't win and purposely gave it to others.
You and me both brother. I have tried looking at this from every angle I can think of, but I'm obviously missing something. I need it 'splained to me. LOL
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Maybe I jumped the gun here. I just called the bowling alley to speak to the league coordinator and was informed that the league secretary has already called them this morning about the issue. They are "trying to figure out what happened" according to the person who answered the phone. LOL
If they take care of it, then I'm good. Mistakes happen, but it could have been handled better last night instead of being told "that's how they do it here". LOL
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While it may be a simple mistake, the answer/explanation you were given last night was unacceptable. So no, I don't think you jumped the gun at all. You were probably more diplomatic about it than I would have been. And it's not about the money, it's just about what's right and what is wrong.
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Milo did we bowl the same league???? hahahaa I remember I finished the season in a handicap league with the highest series, but i got nothing. It wasn't much money, but that year my team won and we got a bunch of money as a team. But I got nothing for high series..... that was my last year in that league....
THis year, I have the highest series scratch...will see if I get anyting for it...
LOL, did they pay someone else though?
yes with handciap, which was still lower than mine was scratch....."to be fair" was what I remember when my teammate complained about it...he was more irritated than I was... He actually left bowling for good.. good bowler too.
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Milo did we bowl the same league???? hahahaa I remember I finished the season in a handicap league with the highest series, but i got nothing. It wasn't much money, but that year my team won and we got a bunch of money as a team. But I got nothing for high series..... that was my last year in that league....
THis year, I have the highest series scratch...will see if I get anyting for it...
LOL, did they pay someone else though?
yes with handciap, which was still lower than mine was scratch....."to be fair" was what I remember when my teammate complained about it...he was more irritated than I was... He actually left bowling for good.. good bowler too.
That would get me a little upset, but maybe it was in the rules. And I'm worried about the two bowlers who was on my team. I only joined this handicap league so they would have a good experience as I usually only bowl scratch leagues.
They both left last night with a bad impression of league bowling. There were a few other issues during the season that they found irritating, but I think last night left a particularly bad taste in their mouth. Hopefully, the people involved will do the right thing.
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The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.
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The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.
Good. I was wondering WTF was going on.....I guess it didn't make sense b/c......it didn't make sense! :P
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The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.
Good. I was wondering WTF was going on.....I guess it didn't make sense b/c......it didn't make sense! :P
She was just going off the league sheet as it was listed. The league doesn't pay the scratch awards and all season Gary and I were both listed for the handicap game and series highs and the two bowlers who were given the awards were listed as scratch. For some reason, the last week, the listings got reversed to where Gary and I were listed as scratch and the other two were handicap. So she automatically paid out the handicap winners as the league rules state.
She mentioned that the league has never had this issue before, so she didn't really think about what I was asking about at the time.
I'm curious how the league sheet changed on the last week. As someone who writes computer programs for a living, I find it odd that something like that would change on it's own.
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The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.
Good. I was wondering WTF was going on.....I guess it didn't make sense b/c......it didn't make sense! :P
She was just going off the league sheet as it was listed. The league doesn't pay the scratch awards and all season Gary and I were both listed for the handicap game and series highs and the two bowlers who were given the awards were listed as scratch. For some reason, the last week, the listings got reversed to where Gary and I were listed as scratch and the other two were handicap. So she automatically paid out the handicap winners as the league rules state.
She mentioned that the league has never had this issue before, so she didn't really think about what I was asking about at the time.
I'm curious how the league sheet changed on the last week. As someone who writes computer programs for a living, I find it odd that something like that would change on it's own.
We used to have a term for that when I worked in air traffic control maintenance - Operator Error.
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Just to go with this for later reference:
From the USBC Rules Dept.
Question:
If a league has only awards for handicap scores, Are the scores of a player with a zero(0) handicap still eligible to win the High handicap awards?
Example:
A scratch bowler with a zero(0) handicap has 300 game which is the highest game in the league.
The 2nd place score is a scratch 298 (0 hdcp pins) and the 3rd place is a 270 (with X number of handicap pins).
Who gets the high game handicap award?
xxxx
Answer from the USBC:
xxxx,
Bowlers who do not receive handicap in a handicapped league are eligible for league handicap awards. The scores are considered as bowled with zero handicap.
Should you have questions please feel free to contact us by responding to this email.
Sincerely,
Kathy Andersen
Rules Counselor
Rules/Bonding
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The league secretary just called me. It seems there was a mix up somewhere along the line when the prize payouts were being created. She was very contrite about the entire situation. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.
Good. I was wondering WTF was going on.....I guess it didn't make sense b/c......it didn't make sense! :P
She was just going off the league sheet as it was listed. The league doesn't pay the scratch awards and all season Gary and I were both listed for the handicap game and series highs and the two bowlers who were given the awards were listed as scratch. For some reason, the last week, the listings got reversed to where Gary and I were listed as scratch and the other two were handicap. So she automatically paid out the handicap winners as the league rules state.
She mentioned that the league has never had this issue before, so she didn't really think about what I was asking about at the time.
I'm curious how the league sheet changed on the last week. As someone who writes computer programs for a living, I find it odd that something like that would change on it's own.
Though the solution has been found and all is well, it still does make me think back to "well that's just how we do it here" from your league officers..........the question being, what is "it"? Did they essentially just form English words together just to make you go away?
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Though the solution has been found and all is well, it still does make me think back to "well that's just how we do it here" from your league officers..........the question being, what is "it"? Did they essentially just form English words together just to make you go away?
She called me yesterday and we had a good discussion of the previous night. She thought I was asking why the scratch awards were not being paid out. The league doesn't pay scratch awards, only handicap. That was what she meant when she said "that's how they do it here." I bet she gets this question every year at the end of the season and probably from the same bowlers.
She was looking into the issue yesterday morning even before I had a chance to call the bowling alley. So she did the right thing and is sending me a check for the award money and left money at the bowling alley for the other affected bowler.
However, after some thought with a clear mind about the situation, I will be sending her the check back as I'm certain the money will be coming out of her pocket. The two people who received the awards Sunday night probably still has the league money, so she more than likely just paid the additional herself.
Bowling needs more people like this lady in my opinion. She made an honest mistake, owned up to it and made it right. League secretary is a thankless job and I can't even fathom all the crap this woman has to put up with from bowlers(me included). Her grace in handing the situation once she discovered there may have been a mistake earns her my respect and admiration. And also makes me ashamed of my own conduct as I look back on the events and see that I was "just another dickhead bowler" who is part of the downfall of the sport. Her and every league secretary like her who is a volunteer deserve better treatment than bowlers as a group give them.
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Kudos to her (and you) for making it right. :)
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Milo,
Happy to hear this is resolved.
You are being very generous in sending the check back. You are correct that being a league secretary is a thankless job and they put up with more s$!$ then anyone should have to. But I disagree that you were in the wrong as well. I do understand her answer better, and you are probably 100% correct in that she is always asked why there is no scratch awards and that fueled her response. But you did nothing wrong. There was a legitimate error, and you tried to correct it, or at least get a viable answer as to why it was done the way it was. She could have, should have taken a look at it at that point, and rather then do that, she chose to blow you off as another scratch bowler complaining about handicap. If that really was the case, then you would be correct, you would have been in the wrong. But there is nothing wrong with pointing out a legitimate error and trying to get it fixed.
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Milo go back to monday mixed 5's hahah
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Milo go back to monday mixed 5's hahah
I should. At least Pacific gives $100 for bowling a 300, right? All I got in this league was another number added to my name on the house 300 board. LOL
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The league I bowled in doesn't allow the highest average man or woman to be eligible for individual high game/high series. However, the league doesn't pay out for those either. They pay point money only based on total wins for the season.
We raised our prize fund $0.70 per week per person for next season and people were grumbling.
With only $3.40 per week per person next season going to the prize fund, there is really no spare fund for individual awards.
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The league I bowled in doesn't allow the highest average man or woman to be eligible for individual high game/high series. However, the league doesn't pay out for those either. They pay point money only based on total wins for the season.
We raised our prize fund $0.70 per week per person for next season and people were grumbling.
With only $3.40 per week per person next season going to the prize fund, there is really no spare fund for individual awards.
Most of the leagues in this area(at least the ones I have bowled) have a "sponsor fee", usually like $10 or $20 per team for handicap leagues and can go as high as $150 for scratch. That is the money that is used to pay the season awards.
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Back in the "old days" when business used to sponser teams, we had sponser fees, but now it seems no one sponsers teams and thus the sponser fee no longer exists.
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Back in the "old days" when business used to sponser teams, we had sponser fees, but now it seems no one sponsers teams and thus the sponser fee no longer exists.
Quite a few leagues still do here, but most don't actually have a sponsor. The bowlers have to "sponsor" themselves. LOL