BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: BrianCRX90 on April 25, 2016, 02:43:30 PM
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Not trying to be a pessimist, but 15 years ago in my area bowling was very popular, to an extent still is but some of the trends are very disturbing to me:
The formation of USBC - thought at the time it would be a good idea to merge ABC/WIBC. After 10 years of this since 2005, I do not see the benefit of merging the two bodies. All I see is increase in fees and for what?
The PBA, a sport 10 years ago was my favorite to watch on tv and attend in person is surviving on a thread. I used to record every show but now...who cares? It's not a real tour anymore, nothing is live except for a couple major events and most of the events are in one city then eventually may have it an another city. Kind of hard to take seriously when the events are not live and not having a tour for everyone to see.
Bowling alleys. What year in your area was the last time a bowling alley was built? Entertainment centers like Main Event or Lucky Strike do not count. These places don't usually have leagues. They cater everything from kids to upper class drinking adults. I counted all the bowling alleys in my area and I came up with 1988 was the last time a bowling alley was built, also every time a bowling alley has been closed down nothing has took it's place.
Also, Brunswick selling their company to Bolmore was probably the nail in the coffin. Brunswick was the best thing to happen to bowling in the 1980's putting alleys everywhere, AMF has always sucked then Bolmore did nothing to improve them not they practically have a monopoly on it. Let's not talk about what Bolmore did to my Brunswick bowling alley's bar.
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Uh, youth bowling isn't doing too bad....
I actually bowled a scratch sweeper yesterday with a pretty good turnout.
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Sean Rash had some interesting comments about "the tour". He said people kept saying the tour is nothing like it was in the 70s and 80s when they traveled across the USA. Sorta like the comments the poster mentioned. Sean's reply: It's now a worldwide tour. He said he bowls approx 40 weeks a year around the world. He's got to see parts of the world he never dreamed of seeing. He's glad it is not a USA only tour.
As we are seeing. The are good bowlers all over the world. Sweden, Australia, Britain and Japan to name a few. Just need to look at it differently. Sure it's not on TV every Saturday but it's on TV a lot.
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Sean Rash had some interesting comments about "the tour". He said people kept saying the tour is nothing like it was in the 70s and 80s when they traveled across the USA. Sorta like the comments the poster mentioned. Sean's reply: It's now a worldwide tour. He said he bowls approx 40 weeks a year around the world. He's got to see parts of the world he never dreamed of seeing. He's glad it is not a USA only tour.
As we are seeing. The are good bowlers all over the world. Sweden, Australia, Britain and Japan to name a few. Just need to look at it differently. Sure it's not on TV every Saturday but it's on TV a lot.
I have to agree with this. I can't remember a time before the USBC that the Japan Open or any other international tournament was aired (whether on network/broadcast TV, YouTube, or otherwise). For the past 3 years or more, we've been treated to:
- Various Collegiate Tournaments,
- Aforementioned Japan Cup,
- QubicaAMF World Cup,
- TeamUSA Trials,
- World Men's/Women's Championship,
- World Youth Bowling Championship, and
- the Relaunched PWBA.
I know there are a few others I'm missing. But I don't see any of that happening without the USBC bringing the ABC, WIBC, and YABA under one roof.
Up in Portland, there are a few that are being built, with one currently closed for rebuilding. It was 12 years ago when The Strike Zone at Sunset Station here in Vegas was built. So yes, there are alleys being built. If one is expecting a 1:1 ratio for openings and closures, that's going to be a stretch, given the number of outlets for entertainment these days. But they definitely are being built overseas.
BL.
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Sean Rash had some interesting comments about "the tour". He said people kept saying the tour is nothing like it was in the 70s and 80s when they traveled across the USA. Sorta like the comments the poster mentioned. Sean's reply: It's now a worldwide tour. He said he bowls approx 40 weeks a year around the world. He's got to see parts of the world he never dreamed of seeing. He's glad it is not a USA only tour.
As we are seeing. The are good bowlers all over the world. Sweden, Australia, Britain and Japan to name a few. Just need to look at it differently. Sure it's not on TV every Saturday but it's on TV a lot.
I have to agree with this. I can't remember a time before the USBC that the Japan Open or any other international tournament was aired (whether on network/broadcast TV, YouTube, or otherwise). For the past 3 years or more, we've been treated to:
- Various Collegiate Tournaments,
- Aforementioned Japan Cup,
- QubicaAMF World Cup,
- TeamUSA Trials,
- World Men's/Women's Championship,
- World Youth Bowling Championship, and
- the Relaunched PWBA.
I know there are a few others I'm missing. But I don't see any of that happening without the USBC bringing the ABC, WIBC, and YABA under one roof.
Up in Portland, there are a few that are being built, with one currently closed for rebuilding. It was 12 years ago when The Strike Zone at Sunset Station here in Vegas was built. So yes, there are alleys being built. If one is expecting a 1:1 ratio for openings and closures, that's going to be a stretch, given the number of outlets for entertainment these days. But they definitely are being built overseas.
BL.
how does the existence of the USBC influence the PBA events I see on TV? the Japan open is not an USBC event.
For me, the USBC member, I have seen my fees go up. I have seen the prizes and awards go down.
I guess the female members get some benefit as the mens events are gone, replaced by open events that females are welcome to join. and The Womens only tournaments are subsidized by the open events.
I know in my state; if USBC didn't exist to create a shared funding for the different USBC state tournaments that there would not be a womens usbc state championship, nor a mixed. Those events don't get the participation to be self sufficient.
is bowling going to 'die'. I am in my 30s, and I highly doubt my life time will see the end of bowling as a recreational league/tournament sport. The PBA has evolved into something I don't watch much anymore; but I bet that it will continue for some time as well. There is too much international interest in the game for it to "die"
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Maybe it should be RIP USBC. Ever since they moved in with the BPOA its been less bowler and more propreiter. I would welcome a true representation alternative.
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Wow, I didn't realize there could be so much hate it so few replies. The first three replies show how bowling in general is growing beyond what some may realize. And the last two replies sound like the "get off my lawn" types who see what is going on around them as the defacto case for the entire bowling world.
If you don't like USBC, then don't bowl in their events. You don't have to be a member to bowl the same as you don't have to be a member of the PGA to play golf and enjoy it. Also, fees or dues for USBC have not gone up in about 10 years so not sure what makes you think you are paying more. In fact, it could be said you are paying less in current value.
Not sure about other states, but pretty sure USBC state events are self sufficient. Local USBCs have to pay the bills and the national USBC does not do that for them. It would be ridiculous to expect a tournament to be run and not be able to pay the payouts from the collected monies.
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The USBC (either in its current form or some other alternative) is something that is absolutely necessary for bowling. A governing body is essential for maintaining consistency in the sport. Without some sort of organization putting forth the effort of establishing rules and guidelines, the sport would collapse and bowling alleys would become nothing more than arcade type venues and eventually disappear into obscurity.
The USBC is not a perfect organization, but there really is no perfect organization. The biggest issue I have with sanctioned bowling is the lack of officiating/referees. Each and every league night I bowl the rules are being broken, or people simply don't know the rules of the game and make it up as they go along. League officers don't want to ruffle any feathers, and the bowling proprietors don't want to irritate customers and lose any...so people get away with murder. I would be all for USBC requiring referees to patrol the lanes during leagues to enforce the rules. They could be volunteers, or people that get paid minimum wage to be at the lanes during league times to help settle rules issues. A rotating schedule would ensure that several people get a chance to be a ref and not the same people each night. A very small increase in lineage by the center would easily cover the expense for these officials. It would be a presence the USBC doesn't currently have at the grass roots level and a reminder that they are out there in force.
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It's amusing to hear people talk about how great youth bowling is doing when total membership has been in a free fall for decades. I guess it has to bottom out somewhere and at roughly 1.7 million members maybe we are getting close. Ignoring local association tournaments for a moment, we've been told about national USBC tournaments being self sufficient, however, I suspect if tournament side of the business were actually charged back for all the technology and human resources they utilized you would find membership dollars supporting those events and would likely be much less profitable. The reality is the USBC will have to continue raising dues indefinitely because there are no signs of growth and they keep doing the same lame programs/marketing that have done exactly nothing for years. USBC as it exists today is a complete disaster and just like spmcgivern suggested...I am voting with my wallet if the increase is approved because it's a complete waste of financial resources to give this incompetent organization more money without a plan that holds leadership accountable for results.
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It's amusing to hear people talk about how great youth bowling is doing when total membership has been in a free fall for decades. I guess it has to bottom out somewhere and at roughly 1.7 million members maybe we are getting close. Ignoring local association tournaments for a moment, we've been told about national USBC tournaments being self sufficient, however, I suspect if tournament side of the business were actually charged back for all the technology and human resources they utilized you would find membership dollars supporting those events and would likely be much less profitable. The reality is the USBC will have to continue raising dues indefinitely because there are no signs of growth and they keep doing the same lame programs/marketing that have done exactly nothing for years. USBC as it exists today is a complete disaster and just like spmcgivern suggested...I am voting with my wallet if the increase is approved because it's a complete waste of financial resources to give this incompetent organization more money without a plan that holds leadership accountable for results.
What would you do differently?
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Maybe league participation has gone down for youth bowling. I don't have any concrete data one way or the other. But it has been harped on and on how the sport of bowling has a bunch of old fogies who will be leaving the sport and then it will die. Less youth league bowlers means less future league bowlers....
But when I was young, most of the youth I bowled with didn't really care about the actual competition. They were interested in other sports also and those usually won out in the end. What I care about for the future of the sport of bowling is the number of youth who want to bowl competitively. Youth who want to continue and bowl in adult leagues. We do have some numbers that show those numbers increasing, and by a lot.
In 2011, Junior Gold had 1,647 participants. In 2015, there were 3,190 participants for a 94% increase in Junior Gold participation. I like the sound of that.
In 2009, the Youth Open Championships had 3,493 separate entries in Team, Doubles, Singles and All Events. Obviously there weren't 3,493 bowlers, but the number of entries is quite high. In 2015, there were 6,653 separate entries in Team, Doubles, Singles and All Events for a 90% increase in participation. Again, that is pretty good. And even better, there were twice as many participating as a scratch entry as compared to handicap.
The youth bowler of today wants to compete at the highest level. The youth bowler of today wants to compete on conditions tougher than the typical adult bowler. The youth bowler of today is the future of the sport of bowling.
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It's amusing to hear people talk about how great youth bowling is doing when total membership has been in a free fall for decades. I guess it has to bottom out somewhere and at roughly 1.7 million members maybe we are getting close. Ignoring local association tournaments for a moment, we've been told about national USBC tournaments being self sufficient, however, I suspect if tournament side of the business were actually charged back for all the technology and human resources they utilized you would find membership dollars supporting those events and would likely be much less profitable. The reality is the USBC will have to continue raising dues indefinitely because there are no signs of growth and they keep doing the same lame programs/marketing that have done exactly nothing for years. USBC as it exists today is a complete disaster and just like spmcgivern suggested...I am voting with my wallet if the increase is approved because it's a complete waste of financial resources to give this incompetent organization more money without a plan that holds leadership accountable for results.
What would you do differently?
First and foremost, we need transparency into current financial budgets and the real cost of programs which Mr. Murphy has consistently been unwilling to provide likely because members might not like where dollars are really being spent. The USBC is a membership organization so when they are not transparent with the members they supposedly serve, I'm going to assume they are hiding something.
1. Is the USBC paying for employees to attend the Open Championships?
2. How much money is being spent this year to send delegates all expense paid to attend the convention in hopes they will vote yes to an increase? (Mr. Murphy has been asked this question on multiple occasions and declined to answer)
3. Are they going to sponsor delegates every year or just this year in an attempt to influence the vote?
4. According to Mr. Murphy, technology costs are the single biggest expense for the organization so how much of that budget is for technology used to support tournaments?
Second, if they want more money, outline how the additional funds will be spent, how that translates into growing or retaining membership and who's accountable for the success or failure of these investments. If there were plan in place with accountability, I'd pay $50 a year, but they want membership to pony up more money just because they need it?
Third, I think the tournament side of the organization should be a separate organization since it's "self sustaining" and should not be the responsibility of the governing body of the sport.
I realize none of this is going to happen and there will be a steady stream of USBC apologists saying it's only $5, but that really isn't the point.
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The average age of the bowlers in my 3 leagues is at least 55. When they are done in say 10 years, what happen to the league. As a youth coach, I only see about 20% of the kids moving on to adult leagues. This won't help replace these retiring bowlers.
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The difficulty with expecting kids to move up to adult leagues is that life often gets in the way. I bowled from about 4 years old until 18 but then went away for school and then started working it just wasn't conducive to bowling. I came back this year after about 10 years as I have a bit more time and have the money to easily get to bowling and play at a decent level. There's a number of younger guys in my league who have returned now that they're a bit older. I don't see people stopping bowling at 65, there's guys in my league who are 90 and many over 70, they may not be great anymore but they still pay their dues and fill the lanes, most bowl more games a week then I do.
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What many people do not fully understand is that the original model for bowling with a dues paying membership of 10 million bowlers was not sustainable. In addition, bowling centers grew up as privately owned for profit investments as opposed to golf that grew with municipal subsidized operations. When golf tried to expand in a profit oriented direction teaming new courses up with housing developments, the fallout was more golf course closing during the economic downturn than has been the case for bowling.
There is nothing wrong with bowling centers going in the direction of being primarily entertainment centers. The important thing is that proprietors understand and accept that the niche of competitive bowling is valuable and important to them even if not the highest profit aspect of their operation.
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The average age of the bowlers in my 3 leagues is at least 55. When they are done in say 10 years, what happen to the league. As a youth coach, I only see about 20% of the kids moving on to adult leagues. This won't help replace these retiring bowlers.
How many of the bowlers in your league bowled as youth? I don't think youth league bowling has to be sole source of adult league bowlers.
I think one area of concern is the expectation of adult league bowling the youth bowler has. They participate in a sport that is challenging then graduate to a sport that is dumbed down to lowest denominator. Might as well call it "No Adult Bowler Left Behind".
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First and foremost, we need transparency into current financial budgets and the real cost of programs which Mr. Murphy has consistently been unwilling to provide likely because members might not like where dollars are really being spent. The USBC is a membership organization so when they are not transparent with the members they supposedly serve, I'm going to assume they are hiding something.
I am assuming you don't like the annual budget report put out every year? How much breakdown are you looking for?
1. Is the USBC paying for employees to attend the Open Championships?
I agree in that USBC staff should foot the bill for the Open Championships. But I assume it is treated much like a sponsorship of which there are many instances at Nationals each year getting some assistance.
2. How much money is being spent this year to send delegates all expense paid to attend the convention in hopes they will vote yes to an increase? (Mr. Murphy has been asked this question on multiple occasions and declined to answer)
Totally agree. I don't understand how this type of expense is justified year after year. My experience has been USBC has never met an all-expense paid meeting they didn't like (food and all).
3. Are they going to sponsor delegates every year or just this year in an attempt to influence the vote?
Afraid it will be foooorrrreeeevvveerrrr. But we'll see.
4. According to Mr. Murphy, technology costs are the single biggest expense for the organization so how much of that budget is for technology used to support tournaments?
Not sure, but I am guessing the technology in question would only be useful if compatible to operate leagues of all sizes along with tournaments of all sizes. Similar structure.
Second, if they want more money, outline how the additional funds will be spent, how that translates into growing or retaining membership and who's accountable for the success or failure of these investments. If there were plan in place with accountability, I'd pay $50 a year, but they want membership to pony up more money just because they need it?
To be fair, USBC National didn't request the money. At the same time, I doubt they didn't provide a nudge of some sort to get it started. I am just not sure how much I would need to know to feel like it is a viable path to improving the sport. Problem is, no two people feel the same way. For every Morpheus or someone else who doesn't like a program, there are others that do.
Third, I think the tournament side of the organization should be a separate organization since it's "self sustaining" and should not be the responsibility of the governing body of the sport.
I am pretty sure the Tournament side helps support the administrative side to some extent. Separating the two would remove an income stream for the administration.
I realize none of this is going to happen and there will be a steady stream of USBC apologists saying it's only $5, but that really isn't the point.
I get where you are coming from Morpheus and I appreciate the response. I agree with a lot of what you said and I too don't like a lot of what USBC does. But without them, I think the sport of bowling will be near extinct. I instead will support USBC when they deserve it but will also complain when I feel they don't. There will definitely be some of both.
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The average age of the bowlers in my 3 leagues is at least 55. When they are done in say 10 years, what happen to the league. As a youth coach, I only see about 20% of the kids moving on to adult leagues. This won't help replace these retiring bowlers.
This is going to sound bad as I say it, so bear with me.
I hope they DON'T move on to Adult leagues. I seriously don't.
I say that because if the youth you are coaching are wanting to be competitive, I hope they head up to the Collegiate ranks rather than go straight to adult leagues. In my youth bowling days, if we hadn't had the two Collegiate teams in my area (Nebraska-Lincoln and Nebraska-Omaha) stop in and bowl with us in league that day and tell us/show us what collegiate Bowling was like, none of us would have had the spark or drive to head up to that level and see what some serious competition was like. We all would have headed straight to adult leagues and became the THS bowler that we love to complain about in this forum.
So no. You want replacements for the turnover? You want the future? Get the kids you are coaching prepped for collegiates, see if there is a collegiate team willing to come down and tell them about the environment waiting for them, and light that fire in their bellies so the sport can have a future.
BL.
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bradl,
I agree collegiate bowling is an option once high school is finished. But only the women's NCAA teams cannot participate in adult leagues. All club teams can.
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
Again...last time I checked they are a membership organization that works for us so where is the transparency? If they want a raise, open up the books and tell us how you're spending membership dollars.
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
Again...last time I checked they are a membership organization that works for us so where is the transparency? If they want a raise, open up the books and tell us how you're spending membership dollars.
I posted two links that do exactly that.
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
Again...last time I checked they are a membership organization that works for us so where is the transparency? If they want a raise, open up the books and tell us how you're spending membership dollars.
I posted two links that do exactly that.
If you actually took the time to read them, you would know those are summarized financial statements and if they have nothing to hide why not share the detail. Mr. Murphy has been asked multiple times for budget level information and has consistently declined to share the information with membership...which by the way are the same people he supposedly works for. If the tournament side of the organization is not being funded by membership dollars, prove it by giving the people funding the non-profit organization the information requested?
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Wow, I didn't realize there could be so much hate it so few replies. The first three replies show how bowling in general is growing beyond what some may realize. And the last two replies sound like the "get off my lawn" types who see what is going on around them as the defacto case for the entire bowling world.
The only hate I have is double standard that exists in the gender segregation of events.
I hate that at an association meeting if I or other male dare suggest a mens tournament we get called names. sexist being only one I can post. however, at that same meeting the lady that calls us sexist can freely discuss and organize a womens tournament.
I do not begrudge the ladys their tournaments; but it should be ok for a mens only event to exist as well.
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The average age of the bowlers in my 3 leagues is at least 55. When they are done in say 10 years, what happen to the league. As a youth coach, I only see about 20% of the kids moving on to adult leagues. This won't help replace these retiring bowlers.
How many of the bowlers in your league bowled as youth? I don't think youth league bowling has to be sole source of adult league bowlers.
I think one area of concern is the expectation of adult league bowling the youth bowler has. They participate in a sport that is challenging then graduate to a sport that is dumbed down to lowest denominator. Might as well call it "No Adult Bowler Left Behind".
Im 24 and only started bowling at the age of 23. A few of the guys that got me into had only started bowling maybe a few months before I did. Only 2 of the guys my age in my summer league bowled as youth. Same for my fall league...a few guys who started late and a few who started young. The thing I like about bowling is you can get into at any age and progress based on how much work you put into it.
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Is bowling going to die or become a niche sport only in large urban areas?
I doubt it.
Will bowling ever achieve the popularity it had starting in the 1950's and running thru the early 1980's?
I doubt this as well.
Having bowled in leagues for over 50 years now I know bowling is not close to it's peak time.
A town of any size had a bowling center of at least 8 lanes. The house ran double shifts of league each evening. There were generally a coffee cup league each morning for the ladies and another league in the afternoon. Larger areas had leagues at 1:00 am for second shift workers.
Open lanes for practice was sometimes hard to come by.
Those days are gone.
ABC/WIBC/AJBC/YBA and now the USBC had very little to do with that explosion of popularity and I believe they have had little to do with its decline.
The cost of dues, in the early 1960's when compared to income was probably higher then than it is now. And since nationally there were only 1000 honor scores shot (with 3 million men members) there were very few awards given out.
The truth was that bowlers wanted to compete an organized environment and the dues were the cost of being able to do that.
The USBC open tournament is a money maker. They have increased tournament expenses from the entry and with bracket money they are more than breaking even. In fact I believe they are subsidizing national operations.
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
Again...last time I checked they are a membership organization that works for us so where is the transparency? If they want a raise, open up the books and tell us how you're spending membership dollars.
I posted two links that do exactly that.
If you actually took the time to read them, you would know those are summarized financial statements and if they have nothing to hide why not share the detail. Mr. Murphy has been asked multiple times for budget level information and has consistently declined to share the information with membership...which by the way are the same people he supposedly works for. If the tournament side of the organization is not being funded by membership dollars, prove it by giving the people funding the non-profit organization the information requested?
I took the time to read them. I don't need to know the "details" of every dollar spent. But then again, I'm not obsessing over finding a reason to bitch about every thing USBC does either.
Have a nice day.
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
Again...last time I checked they are a membership organization that works for us so where is the transparency? If they want a raise, open up the books and tell us how you're spending membership dollars.
I posted two links that do exactly that.
If you actually took the time to read them, you would know those are summarized financial statements and if they have nothing to hide why not share the detail. Mr. Murphy has been asked multiple times for budget level information and has consistently declined to share the information with membership...which by the way are the same people he supposedly works for. If the tournament side of the organization is not being funded by membership dollars, prove it by giving the people funding the non-profit organization the information requested?
I took the time to read them. I don't need to know the "details" of every dollar spent. But then again, I'm not obsessing over finding a reason to bitch about every thing USBC does either.
Have a nice day.
I think the USBC should be accountable to membership and that's not happening. You obviously think they are doing a tremendous job to just give them money with no plan or accountability. That philosophy has gotten us to 1.7 million members and falling...the definition of insanity comes to mind.
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
Again...last time I checked they are a membership organization that works for us so where is the transparency? If they want a raise, open up the books and tell us how you're spending membership dollars.
I posted two links that do exactly that.
If you actually took the time to read them, you would know those are summarized financial statements and if they have nothing to hide why not share the detail. Mr. Murphy has been asked multiple times for budget level information and has consistently declined to share the information with membership...which by the way are the same people he supposedly works for. If the tournament side of the organization is not being funded by membership dollars, prove it by giving the people funding the non-profit organization the information requested?
I took the time to read them. I don't need to know the "details" of every dollar spent. But then again, I'm not obsessing over finding a reason to bitch about every thing USBC does either.
Have a nice day.
I think the USBC should be accountable to membership and that's not happening. You obviously think they are doing a tremendous job to just give them money with no plan or accountability. That philosophy has gotten us to 1.7 million members and falling...the definition of insanity comes to mind.
You are reading a lot into what I think. Here is what I actually think, USBC could and should be doing a better job. What should they do differently? I have no idea, but spending money to provide details to people who just want to grind on the minutia and bitch would be a huge waste. The financials are available for anyone who wants to review them.
Perhaps you should take up a different sport if the governing body of bowling upsets you so much.
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Morpheus,
Which section/part of the financial statement do you want more detail on? I don't see how the current financial statement is severely lacking.
It comes across like you think USBC is trying to decrease membership and trying to throw money down the drain. No matter what they do, someone will be against it.
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
Again...last time I checked they are a membership organization that works for us so where is the transparency? If they want a raise, open up the books and tell us how you're spending membership dollars.
I posted two links that do exactly that.
If you actually took the time to read them, you would know those are summarized financial statements and if they have nothing to hide why not share the detail. Mr. Murphy has been asked multiple times for budget level information and has consistently declined to share the information with membership...which by the way are the same people he supposedly works for. If the tournament side of the organization is not being funded by membership dollars, prove it by giving the people funding the non-profit organization the information requested?
I took the time to read them. I don't need to know the "details" of every dollar spent. But then again, I'm not obsessing over finding a reason to bitch about every thing USBC does either.
Have a nice day.
I think the USBC should be accountable to membership and that's not happening. You obviously think they are doing a tremendous job to just give them money with no plan or accountability. That philosophy has gotten us to 1.7 million members and falling...the definition of insanity comes to mind.
You are reading a lot into what I think. Here is what I actually think, USBC could and should be doing a better job. What should they do differently? I have no idea, but spending money to provide details to people who just want to grind on the minutia and bitch would be a huge waste. The financials are available for anyone who wants to review them.
Perhaps you should take up a different sport if the governing body of bowling upsets you so much.
As best I can tell, the USBC is accountable to no one deciding what we are allowed to know and what's best for us and as a member that's unacceptable. Again, at the end of the day I expect a much higher degree of integrity from a non-profit organization that is supposed to work for us, the membership. If they spent half as much energy working to make the local associations more effective to retain/recruit members as they do on Team USA, PWBA, Junior Gold, etc bowling would be in a much better place. IMHO, the sport of bowling was healthy when membership was healthy...focusing on the sport is not going to make membership healthy again but that's exactly what we get #afutureforthesport 24x7.
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As best I can tell, the USBC is accountable to no one deciding what we are allowed to know and what's best for us and as a member that's unacceptable. Again, at the end of the day I expect a much higher degree of integrity from a non-profit organization that is supposed to work for us, the membership. If they spent half as much energy working to make the local associations more effective to retain/recruit members as they do on Team USA, PWBA, Junior Gold, etc bowling would be in a much better place. IMHO, the sport of bowling was healthy when membership was healthy...focusing on the sport is not going to make membership healthy again but that's exactly what we get #afutureforthesport 24x7.
So I take it you are at least a board member of your local association? Or perhaps a volunteer for the association functions?
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http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/USBC2014Form990_990T.pdf)
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/usbc2014financialstatements-final.pdf)
From Bowl.com on where and how the money was spent. Most organizations are not going to give out their current budget. And I don't blame USBC for not publishing the current budget. Knowing bowlers, the complaints would never end on that.
Again...last time I checked they are a membership organization that works for us so where is the transparency? If they want a raise, open up the books and tell us how you're spending membership dollars.
I posted two links that do exactly that.
If you actually took the time to read them, you would know those are summarized financial statements and if they have nothing to hide why not share the detail. Mr. Murphy has been asked multiple times for budget level information and has consistently declined to share the information with membership...which by the way are the same people he supposedly works for. If the tournament side of the organization is not being funded by membership dollars, prove it by giving the people funding the non-profit organization the information requested?
I took the time to read them. I don't need to know the "details" of every dollar spent. But then again, I'm not obsessing over finding a reason to bitch about every thing USBC does either.
Have a nice day.
I think the USBC should be accountable to membership and that's not happening. You obviously think they are doing a tremendous job to just give them money with no plan or accountability. That philosophy has gotten us to 1.7 million members and falling...the definition of insanity comes to mind.
You are reading a lot into what I think. Here is what I actually think, USBC could and should be doing a better job. What should they do differently? I have no idea, but spending money to provide details to people who just want to grind on the minutia and bitch would be a huge waste. The financials are available for anyone who wants to review them.
Perhaps you should take up a different sport if the governing body of bowling upsets you so much.
As best I can tell, the USBC is accountable to no one deciding what we are allowed to know and what's best for us and as a member that's unacceptable. Again, at the end of the day I expect a much higher degree of integrity from a non-profit organization that is supposed to work for us, the membership. If they spent half as much energy working to make the local associations more effective to retain/recruit members as they do on Team USA, PWBA, Junior Gold, etc bowling would be in a much better place. IMHO, the sport of bowling was healthy when membership was healthy...focusing on the sport is not going to make membership healthy again but that's exactly what we get #afutureforthesport 24x7.
I'd like to know what areas there is still integrity the sport has, because there is certainly very little or none in the Detroit area. Not to mention that the state association turned the state tournament (which I used to enjoy bowling in) into the Michigan Sandbagging Classic.
Truthfully, I will always love the sport, but the people running the sport from those in Arlington to league officers are either cheats, crooked and/or totally clueless for the most part.
As I've said here before, if you lost $9 million on membership fees alone in just one season, shouldn't that be a red flag that something is amiss?
But those in charge in Arlington take the words of Andrea True and say "More More More".
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I think with the environment that the current PBA League has presented, that is the future of bowling. An exciting atmosphere with teams that rep an entity that people can get behind possibly. I think the league coordinators should get sponsors that maybe cover the price of jerseys and maybe money to contribute to the prize fund. This could turn into maybe franchises. Let the sponsor choose their captains or rely on the coordinators to help them choose one and have a draft. That would be fun. Then create an atmosphere that is fun and exciting like in Portland. This would be awesome. I would love to see the PBA expand their teams to more cities and or states. Just like football, baseball and hockey. This may not work for every league but the people working on getting better in more "fun" type leagues, this gives them a goal to work forward. For the others in the fun league it gives them a reason to possibly hang out at the alley another night. Excitement is contagious and bowling needs some excitement.
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I think with the environment that the current PBA League has presented, that is the future of bowling. An exciting atmosphere with teams that rep an entity that people can get behind possibly. I think the league coordinators should get sponsors that maybe cover the price of jerseys and maybe money to contribute to the prize fund. This could turn into maybe franchises. Let the sponsor choose their captains or rely on the coordinators to help them choose one and have a draft. That would be fun. Then create an atmosphere that is fun and exciting like in Portland. This would be awesome. I would love to see the PBA expand their teams to more cities and or states. Just like football, baseball and hockey. This may not work for every league but the people working on getting better in more "fun" type leagues, this gives them a goal to work forward. For the others in the fun league it gives them a reason to possibly hang out at the alley another night. Excitement is contagious and bowling needs some excitement.
I like the idea but don't know if that can happen
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I think with the environment that the current PBA League has presented, that is the future of bowling. An exciting atmosphere with teams that rep an entity that people can get behind possibly. I think the league coordinators should get sponsors that maybe cover the price of jerseys and maybe money to contribute to the prize fund. This could turn into maybe franchises. Let the sponsor choose their captains or rely on the coordinators to help them choose one and have a draft. That would be fun. Then create an atmosphere that is fun and exciting like in Portland. This would be awesome. I would love to see the PBA expand their teams to more cities and or states. Just like football, baseball and hockey. This may not work for every league but the people working on getting better in more "fun" type leagues, this gives them a goal to work forward. For the others in the fun league it gives them a reason to possibly hang out at the alley another night. Excitement is contagious and bowling needs some excitement.
To be honest, I'm surprised that the PBA League has made it this far considering that the NBL died so spectacularly in the early 1960s when the game was at its peak.
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I understand but the PBA has stood the test of time and bowling deserves a professional arm of the sport. The general public doesn't really view bowling as a sport. The key is to get them to understand how much of a sport it is. To be honest, I never really understood how much of a sport golf was until I got deep into bowling and realized how closely related they are. Bowling has an opportunity to spring forward with the hype it has now. Again, people love excitement. People can get behind teams or individuals that represent their interests, whether it's where they work or where they live. Bowling centers can offer incentives for local businesses to sponsor their league teams. Incentives like a free day of bowling for their staff for a certain amount of time with some help and maybe instruction from their league team captian/coach and possibly team. Have you ever played a sport with a pro whether it's a pick up game or for real? It's awe inspiring! This will make the employees excited about the people representing them, and maybe make some new bowlers to grow the sport and again, grow some excitement. This in turn gives new people to come out to be spectators. Maybe once or maybe on a regular basis. Either way, it gets people out.
Having these sponsor are great because it's a small investment to get the word out for their businesses also. Let's just say a 1000 dollar investment for a 5 member team. This easily buys shirts for around 300-400 dollars. Take another hundred to make a cool banner with company logo and team name to go somewhere in the center, and 500 to the prize fund. We have 36 teams on our Monday night league. That make 18,000 dollars to the prize fund alone!!! All the bowlers have to pay is laneage and possibly secretary fee. Probably 5 bucks a night. The question is payout. I would believe that top 3 teams get paid so everyone has a real stake in how they play and it really means something to win. Now bowling seems more than Al Bundy and his friends drinking brews and eating pizza all night. People can see that bowling is a SPORT. The general public doesn't see it that way, and all of these fun places that keep popping up like Main Event devalue the sport.
AND ANOTHER THING..... I started back bowling just a little while ago. There were some great representatives of the sport and many that sucked. For being a newbie at the time, people were nice at face level, but when it came to it, they were somewhat assholes. I understand that you have to prove to be proficient at anything to be in the 'in crowd', but things can get insulting. My PSO was amazing at helping me get started again. He walked my through what to buy and I even hired him as a coach. This was awesome. Fortunately, I got paired up with great team members also. But there were the ones that thought they were too good to even say hi. In fact, I would visit other pro shops, and the employees would look at me like "you don't know the Storm HyRoad?? Ok, you're an idiot." The different PSOs were always nice though. I say that because we should welcome every newcomer to the game with open arms. NOT to be overbearing about their game, but to guide them. Let them know they are appreciated even if they may suck-like I did and do on occassion-LOL.
I love this sport and we are all ambassadors to this sport and the more excited we are for doing what we do, the more excited others will be. Let's not be snobs. Let's invite people out to have fun, and then maybe show them the competitive side too.
That's my .02's on the matter.
Oh BTW!! I know a lot of people have been disgruntled with the USBC but I think the sport of bowling needs it or something like it. Baseball has the commission and so forth. Whether they do a good job can be argued, but I think bowling needs a governing body.
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Here's what I'll do. Pay my $20 for the bonding of the league money and go bowl in Reno at the Open Championships and have a freaking blast with my friends.
Hell, I get $20 in value off the fun atmosphere of Nationals alone.
Maybe get some of that bracket cash too......... ;) ;) ;) :P :P
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The cost of USBC sanctioning, even if it went up to $33 per year, is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Compared to what bowlers pay for equipment, practice, various tournament entry fees, etc. The more sanctioned events you bowl the more value you get out of the membership. At $33 it amounts to $1 per week for a 33 week league [less than the 20oz bottle of soda or water out of the machine at the center.]
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The replies here are interesting but please remember we are a very small sample size.
And I am a close friend of a gentleman who was the execute director of a major city association for over 25 years (now retired) and got to see "behind the curtain" on how that association ran for many years.
First off, as we all know, bowlers are very selfish.
When at meetings and discussions were held about tournaments and such; the association board members who averaged 160-180 always wanted to introduce rules that would benefit them and limit the ability of the scratch bowlers to do well in the tournament. The one or 2 scratch board members would get told, city tournaments are for the general membership and they should have a big advantage over you. We'd prefer you not even enter as you scare away entries.
When the scratch member would speak up, you would hear, "oh shut up, we out number you".
It was surprising to me. The mentality was the 160-180 bowler who was the majority of the membership in the city as well, didn't care one bit about the scratch bowler.
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The replies here are interesting but please remember we are a very small sample size.
And I am a close friend of a gentleman who was the execute director of a major city association for over 25 years (now retired) and got to see "behind the curtain" on how that association ran for many years.
First off, as we all know, bowlers are very selfish.
When at meetings and discussions were held about tournaments and such; the association board members who averaged 160-180 always wanted to introduce rules that would benefit them and limit the ability of the scratch bowlers to do well in the tournament. The one or 2 scratch board members would get told, city tournaments are for the general membership and they should have a big advantage over you. We'd prefer you not even enter as you scare away entries.
When the scratch member would speak up, you would hear, "oh shut up, we out number you".
It was surprising to me. The mentality was the 160-180 bowler who was the majority of the membership in the city as well, didn't care one bit about the scratch bowler.
And scratch bowlers feel the same way about the 160-180 bowler.
As someone who has seen both sides of this issue somewhat recently, I'm amazed by both sides and their lack of understanding and/or caring about others who bowl. I threw a ball down the lanes for the first time ever in January 2008.
Scratch league bowlers only want what benefits them, otherwise USBC is wasting their money.
Handicap league bowlers only want what benefits them, otherwise USBC is wasting their money.
Tournament scratch bowlers only want what benefits them, otherwise, USBC is wasting their money.
Handicap tournament bowlers only want what benefits them, otherwise USBC is wasting their money.
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Going back 40 years I have been very critical of the ABC, now USBC, with respect to competitive aspects of the game I care about. Specifically they were way behind the curve in technical knowledge during the critical period when lane finishes were changing. The result was a series of rules such as Amendment 4 in the late 70's followed by the limited distance dressing rules of the 80's. Their attempts to curb scoring with these rules were failures, and resulted in a backlash from scratch bowlers.
Having said all of the above, I don't think anything the USBC has done has had any impact in the steady decline of membership. Without the USBC we would be worse, even considering the mistakes I believe they made in rule making. Innovative technology in the form of ball advancement had no bigger impact on the competitive game of bowling than did similar advancements in golf club construction impact that game. In the latter case the USGA took a much more active position on technology, yet many golf courses, once considered championship caliber are obsolete, not too mention half the municipal driving ranges that no longer can contain balls launched by big strong free swinging hackers.
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Can someone please tell me, back in the day (60s, 70s, 80s), how many bowling balls did most pro bowlers carry around with them?
How many for your local area scratch bowler?
How many for the high average league bowler?
I don't recall seeing many 5 or 6 ball totes back then?
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In the 80's and early 90's we used to give the guys that brought a second two ball tote to league a hard time.
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Back in the 70's I carried a yellow dot and a white dot. On house shots today I might carry 2 balls plus my spare ball. Don't really need any more. Tournaments are a different story. Oil patterns can be anywhere from 30 to 50 feet. Surfaces are different. Oils themselves vary a lot. I wouldn't go to any serious scratch tourney without 4 balls plus a spare ball. Do I need this many balls. Who knows. I do know that I can make at least as good a use of them as does the 18 handicap golfer with 14 clubs in his bag.
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Back in the 70's I carried a yellow dot and a white dot. On house shots today I might carry 2 balls plus my spare ball. Don't really need any more. Tournaments are a different story. Oil patterns can be anywhere from 30 to 50 feet. Surfaces are different. Oils themselves vary a lot. I wouldn't go to any serious scratch tourney without 4 balls plus a spare ball. Do I need this many balls. Who knows. I do know that I can make at least as good a use of them as does the 18 handicap golfer with 14 clubs in his bag.
avabob,
4 Balls seems very low count for today's competitive bowler. When I went to Regional PBA event 10 years ago I saw many guys wheeling in at least 8 balls for a tournament.
What I am trying to get at here is this:
2 Balls 40 years ago versus 8-10 (maybe more) balls now.
What once was affordable to many people back then is now way out of price for many today.
A bowling arsenal today, is probably very close to a set of high quality Golf Clubs. And the worse part is balls require routine maintenance (more money) and that's to keep them in high quality shape for their short life span.
To me I see competitive bowling just got too expensive. By the time a bowler buys an arsenal, practices to utilize that arsenal (only can practice at bowling center - more money), and then drives around to tournaments to get the cash to support the sport he/she loves doing, there just not enough people willing spend that kind of money and see no chance of return. It really comes down to the sport of bowling out priced itself.
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In the 60's and 70's for league you seldom saw anyone with more than 1 ball. Late in the 70's I was like Bob with a yellow dot and a white dot.
The bulk of the tournaments I see around are on fairly easy house shots. If you can move your feet and play different lines 2 or 3 strike balls is plenty.
For tougher/sport shot tournaments they generally will announce the pattern. Given the length and volume you can narrow it down to 3 or 4 balls in my opinion.
To me one of the biggest fallacies foisted on bowling today is that you have to have this huge arsenal of the latest balls to compete. I've won tournaments using 3 or 4 year old balls with 100's of games on them with only an occasional resurfacing.
I generally feel when I see someone come in with 8 balls that I have them beat because they are trying to force the lane into playing the line they like best and they spend the bulk of their time searching for the magic pill that will save them.
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Just a quick reply here. Please tell me what other sport a non-professional participant can make any money at? I didn't say profit.
People compare golf a lot. But unless you have side bets within your group, I don't think your weekend golf outing with your friends, or whoever you get paired up with the the local course is going to pay you anything for your investment in clubs, shoes, bag, balls, tees etc. Which is a $1000 investment or more.
Bowling is the only sport/game where anyone can enter a tournament or bracket in league. As we often say, pay your money and shoe up.
So yes, buying and maintaining today's equipment is very costly, however, you have a chance to recoup some of those costs.
Golf - not that I know of
Tennis - not that I know of
baseball/softball - not that I know of
darts - nope
All of the other sports/activities pay trophies or medals unless you got a little side action going. And of course, there's tons of side action in most competitive leagues I have been around.
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Exactly right txbowler. No way I justify carrying 4-6 balls and updating my arsenal all the time for league and local low paying tourneys. Over the years when I have gone to high rollers or other major scratch tourneys I usually take 5 balls plus a spare ball. In addition I often drill up something during the week of qualifying if I think I need a different look
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Forgive me if I say something that has been said already as I didn't take time to read responses. Bowling I don't think will truly ever RIP. Some aspects of it may but not the entire bowling world. I just got back into bowling this season after a few years away from the sport for myself even though my kids were still bowling. I will use myself as an example and I am sure there are several parents in similar situations. My son is involved in travel baseball and practices/plays almost year round plus bowls and a couple other activities through out the year. My daughter is involved in dance and now is also playing travel softball plus bowling. I am lucky enough that I was able to find a job that I can pretty much work when I want and from home almost all the time while my wife is the store manager where she works and has to work a little of this and little of that and 50+ hours a week. So the family time is not there and people are starting to delete activities for themselves to get their kids involved in things. I was perfectly happy not bowling and allowing my kids to be in all their activities. Now with how well I did this year I do plan on bowling next season but if push came to shove and I had to pick myself to bowl or one of my kids to do their activity I would stop bowling in a heartbeat. With all the different activities for kids and how expensive everything is now I can see why people are either no longer bowling or not bowling as much.
What is helping youth bowling is all the different ways that they can now get scholarships. Both of my kids are already starting to accumulate some scholarship money from different stuff in bowling. I see youth leagues/competitions to continue to grow due to that. However I don't see as many of those kids coming over into adult leagues even after college as there once was. There is just no incentive for them to continue to bowl.
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Forgive me if I say something that has been said already as I didn't take time to read responses. Bowling I don't think will truly ever RIP. Some aspects of it may but not the entire bowling world. I just got back into bowling this season after a few years away from the sport for myself even though my kids were still bowling. I will use myself as an example and I am sure there are several parents in similar situations. My son is involved in travel baseball and practices/plays almost year round plus bowls and a couple other activities through out the year. My daughter is involved in dance and now is also playing travel softball plus bowling. I am lucky enough that I was able to find a job that I can pretty much work when I want and from home almost all the time while my wife is the store manager where she works and has to work a little of this and little of that and 50+ hours a week. So the family time is not there and people are starting to delete activities for themselves to get their kids involved in things. I was perfectly happy not bowling and allowing my kids to be in all their activities. Now with how well I did this year I do plan on bowling next season but if push came to shove and I had to pick myself to bowl or one of my kids to do their activity I would stop bowling in a heartbeat. With all the different activities for kids and how expensive everything is now I can see why people are either no longer bowling or not bowling as much.
What is helping youth bowling is all the different ways that they can now get scholarships. Both of my kids are already starting to accumulate some scholarship money from different stuff in bowling. I see youth leagues/competitions to continue to grow due to that. However I don't see as many of those kids coming over into adult leagues even after college as there once was. There is just no incentive for them to continue to bowl.
So you are saying it's USBC's fault then? ;D
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I don't think he is pointing fingers , just giving his opinion.
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No offense guys, but this is getting off topic. You have to look at bowling as a viable sport and look outside your personal microcosm to diagnose the problem. Many people are angry at the USBC. I personally don't have a problem with them. Other amateur sports pay for a governing body. Maybe on a more local level, but they do. Look at softball, or even Pop Warner football. There is a governing body and fees are paid to them. After reading this thread, it is making me conclude that bowlers are a little selfish. What is the USBC doing for me? What are they going to do? or Why do we have them? The regulate and facilitate-period. They're not your 401K where you're making an investment. They insure if you go out of state to bowl a tournament, the rules are the same and can be governed if an incident occurs. We're talking about the decline of bowling. It's definitely not the USBC. Those are internal complaints. Externally, why doesn't the general public get excited about bowling? Instead of complaining about the USBC, what you doing it promote the sport? Unless you work at an alley or bowling related business, how many people do you know know who the USBC is? Probably none. So quit blaming the USBC for your personal headaches. If this type of thinking continues, bowling will be dead. Come on guys.
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It was just sarcasm. Of course it's not the USBC's fault. But there is a group here and on other sites that would blame USBC for the Volkswagen emission's issue. But of course, they do nothing themselves to promote bowling. Just bitch about USBC.
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I'm sure this will get flamed but here goes...
The USBC's revenue model makes acquiring and retaining members their business so yeah, I think the decline is on them. If they want more money, do a better job promoting our sport and making local associations more effective so membership starts growing. I mean think about this for a second, you have a bunch of volunteers at the local level giving their time for free and a bunch of people at USBC getting paid based on the hard work of volunteers to recruit and retain membership. I'm not being selfish, I don't want anything from them but if they want a dues increase, then someone needs to show some sack present a plan and be accountable if it fails.
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I get what you're saying. The USBC does have "some" responsibility to bring people in, but it's not their sole responsibility. Bowling needs innovation; not changing the game like the stupid world scoring idea. Baseball is in the same funk. They find that their demo is getting older and older, and can't seem to convert younger enthusiasts outside of young players. I believe that it comes down to education and environment. People learning the actual sport side of bowling from technique to the different oil patterns. The environment can get a little stuffy, and offsetting. The PBA League, again, has the excitement to at least get people interested. Not just sitting around and having to keep the noise level down like it's some type of library in a monastery. Fun and competitive. People love those qualities and bowling posses those qualities if bowlers loosen up and others (outsiders) learn more.
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Has anyone seen the Storm Stepladder Finals???? :'( It seemed like there were only 12 people there. How do you expect bowling to grow with this type of turnout?????? It's pitiful. Even the pros get no one to show up. This is a prime example of the possible demise of this sport. No one is excited!!!!!!!!! Really sucks.
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We as bowlers are the only ones who can grow the sport.
I started bowling about 8 years ago. Prior to that, I have never had a bowling ball in my hand. Why did I start bowling? Because someone where I work wanted to start a league team and ask if I was interested. Since I couldn't golf at night, I thought "Why Not", something to do anyway.
I have since gotten several people either into league bowling or league bowlers to start going to tournaments like the Open who otherwise would never have participated.
The future of the sport and league bowling is in our hands, not just USBC.
Or...we can sit around and bitch about how USBC isn't getting the job done and say F*** them if they want a dues increase while bowling continues to die a slow death.
I guess what I'm saying is, either Shut up or do something about it.
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We as bowlers are the only ones who can grow the sport.
I started bowling about 8 years ago. Prior to that, I have never had a bowling ball in my hand. Why did I start bowling? Because someone where I work wanted to start a league team and ask if I was interested. Since I couldn't golf at night, I thought "Why Not", something to do anyway.
I have since gotten several people either into league bowling or league bowlers to start going to tournaments like the Open who otherwise would never have participated.
The future of the sport and league bowling is in our hands, not just USBC.
Or...we can sit around and bitch about how USBC isn't getting the job done and say F*** them if they want a dues increase while bowling continues to die a slow death.
I guess what I'm saying is, either Shut up or do something about it.
AMEN!!!
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We as bowlers are the only ones who can grow the sport.
I started bowling about 8 years ago. Prior to that, I have never had a bowling ball in my hand. Why did I start bowling? Because someone where I work wanted to start a league team and ask if I was interested. Since I couldn't golf at night, I thought "Why Not", something to do anyway.
I have since gotten several people either into league bowling or league bowlers to start going to tournaments like the Open who otherwise would never have participated.
The future of the sport and league bowling is in our hands, not just USBC.
Or...we can sit around and bitch about how USBC isn't getting the job done and say F*** them if they want a dues increase while bowling continues to die a slow death.
I guess what I'm saying is, either Shut up or do something about it.
I completely agree with that. Just like any other thing that people complain about those on the outside will never want to be part of it if all they hear is people complaining about what's going on. If you hear of people getting bad service when they went to eat somewhere are you going to want to go there? I bet you won't rush out to try it. Same thing is going on with bowling. People complain about this, that, and well just about everything. Why would new people want to join a league?
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Well the dues increase just passed...I bet membership really takes off now. Oh, wait, they have no control over the decline so I guess they have no control over growth. Either way, enjoy it boys, I'm out.
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But the USBC could help more:
Idea#1: Instead of the USBC charging people $300 for Bronze coaching course, how about reducing that price.
Also how about giving coaches free items, oh like...the Bowl Academy videos for free. All bowling information should be free for coaches. Why is the USBC charging coaches for information.
You have people willing to take up coaching learn and study under your organizations recommended courses and you charge them out the nose for it. The organization needs qualified people teaching this sport. Leaving this Sport up to Mom and Dad that bowl leagues is not enough.
Idea#2: USBC and BPAA should be working together to put an effort towards youth bowling. Make it affordable for kids to join leagues. Also work with local proshops and provide discounts to bowling balls and equipment for those specifically registered in sanction youth bowling.
Idea#3: Youth bowling again. Limit what type of ball can be used for youth bowling. Keep things affordable.
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It's not the balls, the oil, lanes, the price if anyone whines about a dues increase I would ask why were not paying MORE.
The only problem with bowling is the Bowlers...that means myself and everyone else here
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Morpheus,
Gotta tell you I always thought of you as being a level headed guy by your past posts.
But to say because of a dues increase.....your out! Simply did not fit your profile.
Regardless I agree with Milo that we as individuals can stop the decline of bowling and turn it around, or we can continue to bitch which to me seems like a copout. I for one have gotten a lot of folks who have never considered bowling as a regular weekly activity to come out and enjoy the sport. I'm proud of these folks and I have enjoyed seeing them enjoying themselves in league play.
So either do something positive for our sport, or simply (if I may) take your ball, go home, take up golf or some other sport, and and shut the hell up!
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Morpheus,
Gotta tell you I always thought of you as being a level headed guy by your past posts.
But to say because of a dues increase.....your out! Simply did not fit your profile.
Regardless I agree with Milo that we as individuals can stop the decline of bowling and turn it around, or we can continue to bitch which to me seems like a copout. I for one have gotten a lot of folks who have never considered bowling as a regular weekly activity to come out and enjoy the sport. I'm proud of these folks and I have enjoyed seeing them enjoying themselves in league play.
So either do something positive for our sport, or simply (if I may) take your ball, go home, take up golf or some other sport, and and shut the hell up!
Again, as a consumer I can only show my displeasure with the organization by voting with my wallet. I've said this many times, if someone would show me a plan and be accountable I'd pay $50 a year. But I refuse to blindly throw any more money at an organization that isn't transparent and frankly has been completely incompetent while our membership declined from 10 million to 1.7 million over the last decade. Ultimately this is about standing on principle and I just cannot support the USBC in its current form with its current leadership.
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Morpheus,
I don't personally agree, but I respect your personal position.
Regards
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There's quite a few young people bowling these days here. (relative speaking :P).
In the club I'm in there is no youth bowlers, but that's mostly because our club is all adults and no coach.
And the managers of the club aren't really trying to get more people into the club, they just expect people to find out about our club by themselfs instead of promoting the club.
I tell some people about the club sometimes when it seems they're interested, so far none of them have joined.
NM is currently going on in Norway. There's quite a few youth players in it.
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As a guy who bowled (as well as worked in bowling centers) for many years but currently can't due to a quirky work schedule (currently working and it is 5:10AM ::)) One of the things that I think has helped with the decline is the refusal by bowling center owners to embrace short season leagues. In a league that I bowled in in a midwest city when I lived there, we bowled 36 weeks. When there was no mathematical chance of us winning and it was 75 degrees and sunny out, I didn't really want to be cooped up inside a bowling center. Having leagues that go 8-10-12-16 weeks allow someone to get into the competitive side of it, without the long commitment. Those with families/kids and their commitments make it harder to go 30+ weeks.
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USBC has done little to promote bowling since its inception. If our area would choice to be unsanctioned we wouldn't be losing much. (the Live time award for one 300) Our area (Iowa) has seen a 50 percent lose in our house since 2008. It is a shame!
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This just keeps going and going.Here is the answer it already has. :'(
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I agree with mbd222. I have talked and talked to the ownership of our two houses about offering a short 16-18 week leagues because so many people I know no longer want to commit to a 36 week season, so they quit instead. The centers ownership keep trying to keep leagues going that will generate the most money in line fees + what folks spend while bowling. yet, with the shrinking leagues/participants, their lack of understanding the problem is a short sided approach. When they hardly have any 34-36 week leagues left, then they will get on the bandwagon to offer short seasons. They just can't see beyond the dollars they have now, but will not have in the near future. Sad!
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4 bowler teams with a 7 pm start and two 15 week seasons. Start later to accomadate the working bowler and done earlier for the family. All done by 10 so house can run open and glo bowling til midnight. A different recreation pattern every five weeks to keep it interesting. Declair two champions and have end of year all teams one and done rolloff. Weekly food and drink special to ring those tills. bowler happy house happy and usbc clueless. A positive post with a solution from a guy who don't want to have you on my lawn. Whatever the f that means.
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The key to bowling is growth. It has nothing to do with the USBC or leagues. Granted they are discussion issues after you get new people enjoying the sport, but how does the sport grow? If it doesn't grow, it does.
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The key to bowling is growth. It has nothing to do with the USBC or leagues. Granted they are discussion issues after you get new people enjoying the sport, but how does the sport grow? If it doesn't grow, it does.
By making leagues more enticing for people (short seasons, smaller teams, less of a time commitment) the sport will grow. When people hear they are going to be at the lanes for 3 hours just to bowl 3 games, they will balk. However, tell people they will be in and out in 2 hours (the length of a standard movie) it will be easier for people to commit to it.
Tens of millions of people bowl every year recreationally. Those are the people you want to entice to come back more than once or twice a year and to make bowling a part of their life. Getting them in to leagues is the best way to do that. Making leagues that fit their schedule is the challenge. 99.9% of the population knows what bowling is, so "product awareness" isn't an issue. Making these people regular customers is the issue.
The USBC needs a publicity campaign other than airing commercials during bowling broadcasts, putting free bowling games on Banquet frozen meals (eww!) or sponsoring one car in one Nascar race one time. They should be buying strategic advertising space across multiple media platforms to keep bowling in the forefront to keep it in peoples' minds. Otherwise, bowling falls into the category of "out of sight, out of mind" for most of the population.
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The key to bowling is growth. It has nothing to do with the USBC or leagues. Granted they are discussion issues after you get new people enjoying the sport, but how does the sport grow? If it doesn't grow, it does.
By making leagues more enticing for people (short seasons, smaller teams, less of a time commitment) the sport will grow. When people hear they are going to be at the lanes for 3 hours just to bowl 3 games, they will balk. However, tell people they will be in and out in 2 hours (the length of a standard movie) it will be easier for people to commit to it.
Tens of millions of people bowl every year recreationally. Those are the people you want to entice to come back more than once or twice a year and to make bowling a part of their life. Getting them in to leagues is the best way to do that. Making leagues that fit their schedule is the challenge. 99.9% of the population knows what bowling is, so "product awareness" isn't an issue. Making these people regular customers is the issue.
The USBC needs a publicity campaign other than airing commercials during bowling broadcasts, putting free bowling games on Banquet frozen meals (eww!) or sponsoring one car in one Nascar race one time. They should be buying strategic advertising space across multiple media platforms to keep bowling in the forefront to keep it in peoples' minds. Otherwise, bowling falls into the category of "out of sight, out of mind" for most of the population.
I think a lot of what you said makes sense. However, I feel the "fixes" you propose are more inline with the BPAA than with USBC.
What most people are talking about is profitability of bowling. Getting more members. Having more leagues. Getting the casual bowler to bowl competitively. But shouldn't that fall on the proprietors? USBC "should" exist whether there are 10,000,000 members or if there are 100.
This doesn't mean USBC doesn't benefit from more members. But there are no more physical benefits from USBC anymore (no awards). So the return of investment for the bowler are those things that most bowlers may feel they don't need (rules, bonding, Team USA, education, etc...). But in theory, these items cost the same no matter what.
USBC does try to generate interest in the "sport" of bowling, as they should. They are active in improving the youth game.
I know for my center, for the last several years, the leagues are being pinched more and more on lane availability. Even if we had the membership to fill the house, the house will not do it. They feel having half the house available for open bowling is more profitable than league bowling. If centers can fill the house with open bowling all day, they would be stupid to house leagues and make less (in their eyes at least).
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It used to be that bowling centers catered to the league bowler and open bowling was only when there wasn't a league going on. From my vantage point the drop in league bowler numbers is not in "lower" average bowlers no longer bowling in a league...but more established 190 -- 200 + average bowlers no longer doing leagues. If it is some of the better bowlers that have stopped bowling leagues, moreso than the lower average bowlers, then my contention months before on this website that "bowling is killing bowling" must be true. Those people that have done this sport for years and have gotten pretty good at it , this sport grabs ahold of you and it becomes almost a passion--so much so that even if the circumstances and the parameters of ones life create a temporary block for doing bowling it will only be temporary, and that type of person usually finds a way to include competitive bowling into his or her life.
I believe that is where it should start ..analyzing why non-beginner--non-casual bowlers are no longer bowling league and look for ways to correct that trend.
Brad
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...I believe that is where it should start ..analyzing why non-beginner--non-casual bowlers are no longer bowling league and look for ways to correct that trend.
Brad
That will be a huge challenge. For example, I am a 200 average bowler that has been bowling for over 20 years. I would love to bowl a sanctioned league, doubles, Saturday mornings at 9:30am (if such a thing even existed around here.) This will never happen because the Juniors take over the house on Saturday mornings, as well as birthday parties. Even though my local center is 48 lanes, they will not even consider devoting lanes to an adult doubles league at a time when they have Juniors and high profit birthday parties.
I currently bowl a 4-man evening league, but it is a huge inconvenience as I have to get permission at work to leave early on that night to drive an hour to the bowling center. Sometimes I wonder if it is worth the hassle. Being able to bowl Saturday mornings would be perfect for my schedule, but not necessarily for other people or the bowling center itself.
As the die hard bowlers get older, their schedules change and it makes it much more difficult to find a league that meets their needs.
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I believe that is where it should start ..analyzing why non-beginner--non-casual bowlers are no longer bowling league and look for ways to correct that trend.
Brad
I believe this is the answer. How do we educate and excite non bowlers to at least become avid bowlers? Many people believe this issue should be fixed from the top down starting with the USBC, centers, ect. I believe, more or less, we should start from the ground up and get new people into the game. I'm not saying these other entities have nothing to work on.
That will be a huge challenge. For example, I am a 200 average bowler that has been bowling for over 20 years. I would love to bowl a sanctioned league, doubles, Saturday mornings at 9:30am (if such a thing even existed around here.) This will never happen because the Juniors take over the house on Saturday mornings, as well as birthday parties. Even though my local center is 48 lanes, they will not even consider devoting lanes to an adult doubles league at a time when they have Juniors and high profit birthday parties.
I currently bowl a 4-man evening league, but it is a huge inconvenience as I have to get permission at work to leave early on that night to drive an hour to the bowling center. Sometimes I wonder if it is worth the hassle. Being able to bowl Saturday mornings would be perfect for my schedule, but not necessarily for other people or the bowling center itself.
As the die hard bowlers get older, their schedules change and it makes it much more difficult to find a league that meets their needs.
I believe this is about location, location, location. We have 2 centers within 10 miles of each other here. One, Center A, is extremely busy and is actually open 24 hours 7 days a week. It has maybe 25 plus leagues at all times, and is pretty busy even when leagues aren't happening. It's a super busy alley. The other, Center B, during the winter, is only open half day for half the week and full days the other half. They have about 10 or so leagues going all year long. Center A is super convenient and lends to every type of bowler (PBA Experience, fun league, youth, youth sport shot league, seniors, ect.), age group and time constraints. Center B covers as much as it can due to time constraints. Granted, there are generally 2 leagues every night-one starting around 6 and the other around 9, and there is a youth league at Center B, but only on Saturdays. Again, both within 10 miles of each other.
That being said, I've lived in other areas, and they (Center C) only had one league per night and maybe one on Saturday and Sunday morning which doesn't give bowlers many choices on schedule.
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I can tell you that one of the problems in my area is the ONLY center doesn't have a USBC Sanctioned youth league. This makes getting scholarships to not possible :(
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I agree with mbd222. I have talked and talked to the ownership of our two houses about offering a short 16-18 week leagues because so many people I know no longer want to commit to a 36 week season, so they quit instead. The centers ownership keep trying to keep leagues going that will generate the most money in line fees + what folks spend while bowling. yet, with the shrinking leagues/participants, their lack of understanding the problem is a short sided approach. When they hardly have any 34-36 week leagues left, then they will get on the bandwagon to offer short seasons. They just can't see beyond the dollars they have now, but will not have in the near future. Sad!
This is what I have had in mind for years. You could run a short season league in the fall and another in the winter/spring. If you want to commit to a long season, you could bowl in them both. It would allow someone to compete in a league without the major commitment that a 34 week league would entail.
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Just a little note of intro...I'm new here. I was an avid bowler during high school (back in the late 80's to early 90's)...stopped when I got to college (just too busy) and haven't really picked it back up. I went from a competitive tournament bowler on the youth/junior level, to basically bowling maybe 5 or 6 times over the next 25 years (and I don't think I ever really stopped loving bowling).
I think the reason for bowling's decline is merely the change in parenting styles over the past several decades. When I was younger, most kids had one activity at a time and it wasn't usually year round. I had baseball a night or two per week, maybe Saturday morning. There was time left over during non-baseball season or even DURING baseball season for parents to do other things...maybe go out to a Tuesday night bowling league with his buddies.
Nowadays, a kid who plays baseball also plays Fall Ball. He might go to clinics in the winter. He'll play on his little league team in the spring as well as a travel team that extends into the summer. He might also have a camp later in the Summer. And a lot of kids will have another activity on top of that that gets squeezed in. If you have two or three kids, there is absolutely no time left to commit. You certainly can't carve out one block of time each and every week at the same time. Add to the fact that today, most households are either single parent (divorced) or dual income (I.e., no stay at home parent). So, both parents are scrambling every moment they aren't working just to keep life moving forward.
I think the one way to fix it is to market bowling for the whole family. I started bowling again because I have a few kids who started league bowling this year. I have a couple special needs children (large, blended family) who aren't really suited for the typical baseball, football, soccer, etc. types of sports and needed an activity, so we got them into bowling. But, I think bowling *could* regain popularity if it was marketed a little better.
But if you really want *adult* participation, you have to target the "Mom/Dad audience". Youth/adult leagues are great for that. Also, I remember in my youth, some of the larger houses would have an adult tournament going on at the same time as youth tournaments (or have them back to back...youth in the morning, adults right after). Those were the ones my Dad would bowl in, because he was already there.
I think the other barrier was already mentioned...there is an intimidation factor that seems to be present now as bowling has evolved. Even as an experienced bowler, I find myself swamped looking at bowling today. 25 years ago, if you were aspiring to up your game, you'd by a Hammer. EVERY SINGLE decent bowler had at least one hammer in their bags (I had a Black Hammer, Blue Hammer and Blue Pearl...my Dad had a Black, Red, Red Pearl and a Nail). Now, I come on this forum wondering what the first new ball I should buy is and there are 117 PAGES of bowling balls. 25 years ago, we new about top weight, side weight. Now, I need to learn RG, differential, mass bias, PAPs, PIPs and POOPs (okay, I made some of that up). I know you can walk into a pro shop and have someone give you something appropriate...but there was a feel 25 years ago that if you bought a Hammer, you were serious. Now, it's just not the same. So, there's a barrier...even I feel it and I shot 268 last week bowling for really just the second time this year.
I liken it to video games. When I was a kid, even though I spent hours per day playing, my dad could just sit down and play with me. Games were simple and it didn't take much to be able to have fun together. Now, my kids ask me to play with them and I join there game and I have a character with an "inventory" that has 36 pages containing 197 different weapons and ammo. There is so much going on on the screen that I feel like I can't even really play. There's an extreme "barrier to entry", if you will. As such, kids don't play video games with their dads anymore (really).
I'm not even going to get into scoring. The number of 300 games being shot nowadays (even with less participation)...I don't think it's good for the game. I live in Delaware, so Jim Johnson Jr was a legend in Delaware when I was bowling (he was still bowling local and hadn't really gone on the tour yet). He held the ABC record for career 300 games at 27. I saw him bowl a few in local tournaments to get into the low 30's. Now, there are lots of guys with over 100? A 900 series was a legend...now it's been done over two dozen times? I think the inflated scores goes a long way to further divide the newer player from the "elite", to the detriment of the game's appeal.
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Great discussion on a topic that has been the subject of much serious debate.
I agree with most of the theories that have been expressed on this forum. Of all of them, I believe that one of the major contributing factors for the decline in league bowling is due to the often difficult work schedules today's bowlers are having to
endure. When I started bowling over 50 years ago, most folks worked one full-time job and that job usually came with a fixed daily, predictable schedule. This freed up
a bowler's non-work time and made it much easier for them to commit to a weekly
league format. Today, it is more often than not to see folks work 2 or 3 jobs, often with varying start and stop times. It is often next to impossible for today's worker to commit to any off-duty activity, whether it's bowling or taking evening college courses, or
anything else. Working families today are pretty much on a 24/7 treadmill, unfortunately.
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Today, it is more often than not to see folks work 2 or 3 jobs, often with varying start and stop times. It is often next to impossible for today's worker to commit to any off-duty activity, whether it's bowling or taking evening college courses, or anything else. Working families today are pretty much on a 24/7 treadmill, unfortunately.
As someone who has always had time for bowling, I can't imagine how awful that lifestyle must be.
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Today, it is more often than not to see folks work 2 or 3 jobs, often with varying start and stop times. It is often next to impossible for today's worker to commit to any off-duty activity, whether it's bowling or taking evening college courses, or anything else. Working families today are pretty much on a 24/7 treadmill, unfortunately.
As someone who has always had time for bowling, I can't imagine how awful that lifestyle must be.
I don't know if I'd call it "awful". I've won my share of bowling tournaments, bowled 300, 800 (back when it was a much harder feat...26 years ago now). I'd rather watch one of my kids do it now than accomplish it myself. It would mean a lot more for them.
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Today, it is more often than not to see folks work 2 or 3 jobs, often with varying start and stop times. It is often next to impossible for today's worker to commit to any off-duty activity, whether it's bowling or taking evening college courses, or anything else. Working families today are pretty much on a 24/7 treadmill, unfortunately.
As someone who has always had time for bowling, I can't imagine how awful that lifestyle must be.
I don't know if I'd call it "awful". I've won my share of bowling tournaments, bowled 300, 800 (back when it was a much harder feat...26 years ago now). I'd rather watch one of my kids do it now than accomplish it myself. It would mean a lot more for them.
I totally understand that, I was simply referring to.....what is essentially a ball-and-chain to the desk. Living FOR work has to be an awful experience. I couldn't imagine just quitting all my hobbies for my employer.
Don't get me wrong......I wake my ass up everyday and work hard, pay taxes etc, but just simply existing around my employment just doesn't seem, TO ME, much of a lifestyle. It’s OK in its place but cannot be the wellspring of all fulfillment nor occupy all our hours.