BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: BeerLeague on January 18, 2017, 08:39:13 AM
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Not to beat a dead horse here, but it has been bugging me lately.
I see people averaging 220+ on "house" conditions, with no real versatility, and no game other than big revs. Their spare shooting sucks. I see guys that can miss by 5 boards in or out and still crush the pocket. The same guys can easily shoot 450 without the free hook outside and hold inside.
I also see guys in more competitive leagues, where the shot is intentionally challenging, bring a 20X average into a tourney and get pins. These same guys can average 220+ on walls. This hardly seems ethical and it hurts turnout.
I guess my point is ... Can we PLEASE get rid of wall shots? I remember the local USBC/ABC office would run tapes regularly to check for illegal "block" shots, which are known as "walls" or "THS" today. What happened?
The combination of reactive resin equipment, blocked walls, and pins that fly like crazy has turned bowling into parody of itself. Shot making is no longer rewarded and accuracy seems to have taken a backseat to power. If you have both, then you are deadly but us mere mortals cannot hit dimes while putting 500 RPM on the ball.... and that brings up the 2 handed / thumb-less argument which I will not engage in but I will say I believe it should be illegal.
I know its an old, worn out subject, but the game has been destroyed. Some people will argue that it has evolved. I reject that. Where is the real test of skill?
I think we could take a lesson from the PGA .... they got rid of square grooves (to put premium on accuracy over power and hit fairways), and make anchored putting illegal (it gives the golfer a physical advantage). You can draw the same parallels to bowling....
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It doesn't matter which era you feel is superior. There is another that thinks it is unfair.
If you like the urethane days, the plastic guys complain. Like the plastic days, the rubber guys complain. There is no one era that is superior. Older bowlers have complained forever that the new guns are ruining the game.
Evolve, just like everyone else has had to do since the beginning of time.
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It doesn't matter which era you feel is superior. There is another that thinks it is unfair.
If you like the urethane days, the plastic guys complain. Like the plastic days, the rubber guys complain. There is no one era that is superior. Older bowlers have complained forever that the new guns are ruining the game.
Evolve, just like everyone else has had to do since the beginning of time.
That's not the point I was trying to make. It's not about one "era" over another. The PGA made the rules changes to preserve the integrity of the game. That was my point. There is nothing to evolve to .... that is my point.
I was making 2 points really ....
1.) Eliminate the the house walls, the unsanctioned sport shots and the disparity in lane conditions. We needs some enforceable standards across all sanctioned leagues -- why else have a sanctioning body? -- the other alternative is roll back the ball technology but that seems counter productive.
2.) Make 2 handed / thumbless stuff illegal as it gives the bowler an unfair advantage over the field. I make a parallel comparison to the anchored putting with this.
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A putter is a piece of equipment. If you want to compare 2 handed to golf it would be if somebody was able to "Happy Gilmore" a drive and hit it 50 yards further than anyone else.
The game has changed. Bowling has gone through the Tiger effect. Belmonte has been around long enough that the kids that saw his style and that it was ok to do things differently than before are now old enough to compete, so there are a bunch of guys in their late teens and early 20's that are way ahead of the learning curve.
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My way is simple. Want recognition for your honor score? Want awards of some sort? Don't sanction THS. Put your money where your mouth is, only sanction shots that meet a certain criteria, and keep the Ths for people that want to "play bowling", not participate in the sport of bowling. Make them fair enough, and then equipment becomes less of a arguing point and shotmaking becomes the norm.
You want integrity after this much tomfoolery, though, some heads are going to roll and some people are going to be left out in the cold and there would be some factioning of the play bowlers and the athletes.
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It doesn't matter which era you feel is superior. There is another that thinks it is unfair.
If you like the urethane days, the plastic guys complain. Like the plastic days, the rubber guys complain. There is no one era that is superior. Older bowlers have complained forever that the new guns are ruining the game.
Evolve, just like everyone else has had to do since the beginning of time.
That's not the point I was trying to make. It's not about one "era" over another. The PGA made the rules changes to preserve the integrity of the game. That was my point. There is nothing to evolve to .... that is my point.
I was making 2 points really ....
1.) Eliminate the the house walls, the unsanctioned sport shots and the disparity in lane conditions. We needs some enforceable standards across all sanctioned leagues -- why else have a sanctioning body? -- the other alternative is roll back the ball technology but that seems counter productive.
2.) Make 2 handed / thumbless stuff illegal as it gives the bowler an unfair advantage over the field. I make a parallel comparison to the anchored putting with this.
You seem to not like the game as it is played today, thus not liking this era. You want to go back to taping the lanes after every award score to ensure "integrity"? That is ridiculous. To do that you would have to pay out the butt to support the logistics. Then what do you do about the times there aren't any award scores? Do you tape lanes before every competition whether it be league or tournament? More money.
As for two-handed bowling, I fail to see the unfair advantage. Two-handers use one hand to release the ball, not two. Some two-handers put their thumb in the ball so that can't be it. And if you don't like thumbless, then who determines the "proper" way to throw the ball? Bowlers used to have one finger and one thumb years ago. Are they more right than you and your illegal two fingers and thumb?
I understand you feel today's game lacks some level of integrity. But whatever your vision of bowling is, I am sure there is someone who disagrees with you.
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My way is simple. Want recognition for your honor score? Want awards of some sort? Don't sanction THS. Put your money where your mouth is, only sanction shots that meet a certain criteria, and keep the Ths for people that want to "play bowling", not participate in the sport of bowling. Make them fair enough, and then equipment becomes less of a arguing point and shotmaking becomes the norm.
You want integrity after this much tomfoolery, though, some heads are going to roll and some people are going to be left out in the cold and there would be some factioning of the play bowlers and the athletes.
I have always felt USBC should only be in the sport market, not the game market. Let the proprietors and BPAA decide what fun leagues should be. Let them decide what the shot should be for fun leagues (no required taping) and decide if the members get anything in return for awards. Charge a fee per league game bowled to support the effort.
USBC should be in charge of bowling as a sport and any league/tournament that wants the USBC logo needs to adhere to some regulations whether they be conditions or whatever. Membership costs would be higher, but I think we are headed down that path no matter what.
This wouldn't get rid of fun handicap leagues, but hopefully it can reduce the logistical concern over taping and the such.
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I was making 2 points really ....
1.) Eliminate the the house walls, the unsanctioned sport shots and the disparity in lane conditions. We needs some enforceable standards across all sanctioned leagues -- why else have a sanctioning body? -- the other alternative is roll back the ball technology but that seems counter productive.
You are up against bigger forces on this point. The proprietors have a financial interest in happy customers. It has been pretty well proven that higher scores tend to create happy (and scoring entitled) customers. Happy customers tend to spend more money. The USBC cannot outright ban certain patterns, and they know it. But they have put in place avenues to recognize bowling on more competitive patterns. This is about as good as USBC can do at the house level.
2.) Make 2 handed / thumbless stuff illegal as it gives the bowler an unfair advantage over the field. I make a parallel comparison to the anchored putting with this.
We can all beat this to death, and maybe already have, but you aren't going to win this war either. If it isn't two handed, or no thumb, it will be the Maximum Bob's or Jimmy Keith's of the world. In many ways, allowing two handed and/or no thumb is a way to level the playing field for most of us who don't have the large hands or otherworldly physical gifts of some of these guys.
In general, with the equipment and conditions of today, more rev's is only an advantage if you can manage it and control it. At the highest level, they do. As you work your way down to the house shot heros, they have the rev's but not the control, so they look great on the THS, but self destruct as the patterns become more demanding. I'm only about 300 rev's myself, but in may cases can complete on sport type conditions with 500 rev guys because of speed control, or accuracy, or spare shooting, or ability to read transition. At times I can keep up on a THS, but when they get matched up, they blow past me. If they lose the look, I can blow past them.
Rev's are only one part of the game, but at times it is the poster child for complaining about all problems with bowling. I respect your opinion, but I do not agree
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The USBC could NOT survive without us league bowlers. We are it's best cash cow. We league bowlers don't get much from the USBC anyway. Bonding is very important, but beyond that, not much. Tournaments are nice when they are scratch.
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Bowlers in America are entitled brats. As the parent, USBC, you should give the entitled brats what they deserve, not what they're screaming for. Eventually, the screaming and tantrums quiet down and the child falls in line.
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when I was in high school, or around the time reactive came into the world of bowling, I hung out at the bowling center for non bowling reasons. I stopped bowling at the time, but I was around die hard bowlers. And I remember the older men talking, sitting at one of the restaurants, about leaving bowling due to the new strong cover.
I didn't have any idea what the new cover was, but my old youth teammate (who later became a pro) was hooking the crap out of the ball!!! I barely could make my ball hook 3 boards lol. Friction was very hard to find. But my friend was enjoying it!
Anyway, I'm guessing these men whom I knew, who were already hooking the urethane ball didn't like the reactive ball. And all of them had stopped bowling in the early 90's and took up golf or fishing. In the opposite side of the coin. My older sister, relatives, and her friends picked up the sport because they could hook the ball. By the mid 90's I was a rare sub and I remember leagues having a waiting list still. Though not the same thing is happening here nowadays - there is no waiting list. Leagues are begging for bowlers. Well, one league I know here is really HUGE and it's "wait and see" list.
But, I see more rec bowlers interested in joining league. I see more two handed bowlers or no thumb bowlers asking questions about leagues. IMO, Bowling isn't as popular as it once was, but bowling will not die.
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Sounds like sour grapes from someone who averages 188 on house and got clobbered the night he composed this thread by someone who averages 220+.......
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First, you do understand that the resin era has been here for 25 years. Prior to that the rules allowed totally walled blocks for 24 feet, ensuring plenty of free hook for anyone who could cup his wrist enough.
Today most tournaments are held on conditions that force versatility as opposed to standing left and throwing right. League bowling is for fun. Let people have fun hooking the lane.
As for the bowling vs golf arguments, more people quit golf because it is too hard than quit bowling because it us too easy. As for the too easy argument, expanding on nortface comment, people usually quit bowling because it is too easy-------for the other guy
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Sounds like sour grapes from someone who averages 188 on house and got clobbered the night he composed this thread by someone who averages 220+.......
Not hardly. I just trying to start an objective discussion.
If you haven't noticed,bowling is almost extinct and the PBA is a joke. I want the game to thrive.
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We can all moan and complain about the way the conditions are and that the 2 handed bowlers have the advantage, but the bottom line is you bowl on the same conditions that they do. Generally speaking the bowler with the most talent is going to come out on top in the long run. All of us get beaten by someone with less skill and we even beat those with more skill than we have. There is no way to make everything exactly equal but the one constant is you can improve your own skill by correctly practicing. It is just like the handicap those on top think there shouldn't be any and those on bottom want the handicap. Bottom line no way to please all so just bowl do the best you can and if you are pleased with the way you bowled that is really all that matters.
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Short answer: YES
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(https://i.imgflip.com/1hwbhi.jpg)
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Not hardly. I just trying to start an objective discussion.
If you haven't noticed,bowling is almost extinct and the PBA is a joke. I want the game to thrive.
You've never been outside of the country, have you?
If you have, you'd realize how much of a farce your statement is.
BL.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/1hwbhi.jpg)
Ha ha ha, man I LOVE that for some reason. 🤗
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Ha ha ha, man I LOVE that for some reason.
This whole thread was started by member berries..... ;) :P :P
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Sounds like sour grapes from someone who averages 188 on house and got clobbered the night he composed this thread by someone who averages 220+.......
Not hardly. I just trying to start an objective discussion.
If you haven't noticed,bowling is almost extinct and the PBA is a joke. I want the game to thrive.
Based on connecting this post to your previous posts in the thread, are you implying and or specifically stating that walled up shots and 2 handers are killing bowling? That those two reasons are the reasons bowling is dying...
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Sounds like sour grapes from someone who averages 188 on house and got clobbered the night he composed this thread by someone who averages 220+.......
Not hardly. I just trying to start an objective discussion.
If you haven't noticed,bowling is almost extinct and the PBA is a joke. I want the game to thrive.
Are you implying and or specifically stating that walled up shots and 2 handers are killing bowling?
Not only that, he is specifically stating that bowling is nearly dead, without even taking into account how many of our bowlers went over to Japan to compete, how many just finished the TeamUSA trials, how many in the next 2 weeks are coming up on Collegiate tournaments, the QubicaAMF World Cup, WTBA tournaments, PABCON, and possible inclusion in the Olympics.
But he's so narrowminded and narrow focused on what is happening to him that he states that it is nearly extinct. The scent of entitlement reeks worse than weed at a kim-chee festival.
Bowling nearly extinct? Hardly, bro. Hardly.
BL.
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Sounds like sour grapes from someone who averages 188 on house and got clobbered the night he composed this thread by someone who averages 220+.......
Not hardly. I just trying to start an objective discussion.
If you haven't noticed,bowling is almost extinct and the PBA is a joke. I want the game to thrive.
Objective? Are you kidding? You want outlaw particular styles because in all likelihood you are unable to replicate said styles. That's not objective.
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Two handed and thumbless bowling shouldnt be banned. I have a teammate that can only bowl without a thumb because of breaking his hand so many times with work and sports. He can only throw the ball a few shots a night with a thumb before he is in pain. And his other hand is worse so switching hands is not an option.
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Not to beat a dead horse here, but it has been bugging me lately.
I see people averaging 220+ on "house" conditions, with no real versatility, and no game other than big revs. Their spare shooting sucks. I see guys that can miss by 5 boards in or out and still crush the pocket. The same guys can easily shoot 450 without the free hook outside and hold inside.
I also see guys in more competitive leagues, where the shot is intentionally challenging, bring a 20X average into a tourney and get pins. These same guys can average 220+ on walls. This hardly seems ethical and it hurts turnout.
I guess my point is ... Can we PLEASE get rid of wall shots? I remember the local USBC/ABC office would run tapes regularly to check for illegal "block" shots, which are known as "walls" or "THS" today. What happened?
The combination of reactive resin equipment, blocked walls, and pins that fly like crazy has turned bowling into parody of itself. Shot making is no longer rewarded and accuracy seems to have taken a backseat to power. If you have both, then you are deadly but us mere mortals cannot hit dimes while putting 500 RPM on the ball.... and that brings up the 2 handed / thumb-less argument which I will not engage in but I will say I believe it should be illegal.
I know its an old, worn out subject, but the game has been destroyed. Some people will argue that it has evolved. I reject that. Where is the real test of skill?
I think we could take a lesson from the PGA .... they got rid of square grooves (to put premium on accuracy over power and hit fairways), and make anchored putting illegal (it gives the golfer a physical advantage). You can draw the same parallels to bowling....
So everyone should bowl on conditions where you feel you have an advantage and only using the style you use.
Please...
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Not to beat a dead horse here, but it has been bugging me lately.
I see people averaging 220+ on "house" conditions, with no real versatility, and no game other than big revs. Their spare shooting sucks. I see guys that can miss by 5 boards in or out and still crush the pocket. The same guys can easily shoot 450 without the free hook outside and hold inside.
I also see guys in more competitive leagues, where the shot is intentionally challenging, bring a 20X average into a tourney and get pins. These same guys can average 220+ on walls. This hardly seems ethical and it hurts turnout.
I guess my point is ... Can we PLEASE get rid of wall shots? I remember the local USBC/ABC office would run tapes regularly to check for illegal "block" shots, which are known as "walls" or "THS" today. What happened?
The combination of reactive resin equipment, blocked walls, and pins that fly like crazy has turned bowling into parody of itself. Shot making is no longer rewarded and accuracy seems to have taken a backseat to power. If you have both, then you are deadly but us mere mortals cannot hit dimes while putting 500 RPM on the ball.... and that brings up the 2 handed / thumb-less argument which I will not engage in but I will say I believe it should be illegal.
I know its an old, worn out subject, but the game has been destroyed. Some people will argue that it has evolved. I reject that. Where is the real test of skill?
I think we could take a lesson from the PGA .... they got rid of square grooves (to put premium on accuracy over power and hit fairways), and make anchored putting illegal (it gives the golfer a physical advantage). You can draw the same parallels to bowling....
So everyone should bowl on conditions where you feel you have an advantage and only using the style you use.
Please...
Let's think about this the other way, and perhaps we should bowl on conditions where he feels he has the advantage. Because I'd guarantee that 80% - 90% of the people in this ruined-for-good, dying, close-to-extinct of a sport (his words) could work through what is giving him the advantage, and still beat and excel.
Then he would be left with nothing to complain about except himself in the mirror.
BL.
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I see a lot of people jumping the OP for his comments. While I don't agree that 2 handed and/or thumbless releases give you an advantage ALL of the time; I do feel that the sport has become harder to validate correct averages at tournaments. I currently bowl in 2 houses, and the difference is night and day! I'll be going into City, State, and Nationals this year with about a 20-pin increase (due to the plus-10 rule) simply because I decided to branch out to another house for the first time in like 5 years. I'm still the same bowler, and bowling at this new house hasn't made me a better bowler per-se, but that's how it is. I'm not saying it's anyone else's fault, as I chose to bowl at the new location, just simply using my experience as an example of how averages can be greatly inaccurate as a foolproof method of judging someone's credibility.
With all that said, however, I'm not sure what the USBC could do about this. They've already established the Sport Bowling program, for individuals that would prefer a more challenging experience. I don't foresee USBC enforcing a weekly taping of lanes to make sure all shots comply, as that would be financially, well, ridiculous. Noone is gonna want to up there yearly sanction from $20 to like $100 just to bowl worse every week. THAT, would kill bowling. :o
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I see a lot of people jumping the OP for his comments. While I don't agree that 2 handed and/or thumbless releases give you an advantage ALL of the time; I do feel that the sport has become harder to validate correct averages at tournaments. I currently bowl in 2 houses, and the difference is night and day! I'll be going into City, State, and Nationals this year with about a 20-pin increase (due to the plus-10 rule) simply because I decided to branch out to another house for the first time in like 5 years. I'm still the same bowler, and bowling at this new house hasn't made me a better bowler per-se, but that's how it is. I'm not saying it's anyone else's fault, as I chose to bowl at the new location, just simply using my experience as an example of how averages can be greatly inaccurate as a foolproof method of judging someone's credibility.
With all that said, however, I'm not sure what the USBC could do about this. They've already established the Sport Bowling program, for individuals that would prefer a more challenging experience. I don't foresee USBC enforcing a weekly taping of lanes to make sure all shots comply, as that would be financially, well, ridiculous. Noone is gonna want to up there yearly sanction from $20 to like $100 just to bowl worse every week. THAT, would kill bowling. :o
A few years ago, I submitted a white paper to USBC with a proposed solution to the problem and got a "thanks, but no thanks< email as a reply.
Here is my idea of a solution. Don't use averages for handicapping. Use how a bowler ranks among other bowlers in the same environment. For example, if your house had 100 bowlers and you were the 5th highest average in the house, you are in the top five percentile for that house. If you bowled more than one league average the league and it still works. Hard house house, sport shot, great wall of china it will still work out where the better bowlers will rise to the top.
With the USBC database, you could even rank houses against each other when bowlers completed any USBC sanctioned tournament. So if the top 10 bowlers from a high average house went to Nationals and sucked and the top 10 bowlers from a low average house went to Nationals and did well, you have a factor on how the houses compare.
USBC has years of data from houses, leagues, tournaments etc that could be mined to provide a system to create a better snapshot of a given bowlers ability.
Handicap would be figured on your percentile, not your average.
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My biggest issue with THS is how it creates this HUGE GAP for those who only bowl on it, and want to take their bowling to the next level. That reality pill is very tough to take.
I know many bowlers that have decent skills, and I truly believe that would improve their game big time if they bowled on difficult patterns. Sure initially scores would go down, but in the end they would probably be back to their previous THS average or close to it.
Its just getting through the initial shock of it.
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There is nothing keeping anyone from practicing hitting what they are looking at. If you can't hit what you're looking at while you practice there is no chance it is going to happen when the arrows come up on a demanding lane condition. You have to want to become a better bowler to become a better bowler.
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^^ this ^^
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There is nothing keeping anyone from practicing hitting what they are looking at. If you can't hit what you're looking at while you practice there is no chance it is going to happen when the arrows come up on a demanding lane condition. You have to want to become a better bowler to become a better bowler.
This is both an EXCELLENT observation and good advice.
Practicing hitting what you are looking at is paramount to being able to score well on tough conditions.
Regardless of what you're throwing, or throwing on.
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There is nothing keeping anyone from practicing hitting what they are looking at. If you can't hit what you're looking at while you practice there is no chance it is going to happen when the arrows come up on a demanding lane condition. You have to want to become a better bowler to become a better bowler.
This is both an EXCELLENT observation and good advice.
Practicing hitting what you are looking at is paramount to being able to score well on tough conditions.
Regardless of what you're throwing, or throwing on.
Valid points (and I agree)
However the reality of it is, the THS takes all these requirements away.
- You really don't have to look,
- You don't have throw it the same way every time.
Someone who is only on THS (and that is all he/she has known) kind of get this thinking that they have natural talent. I see this in a lot of teenage bowlers. They really think they got it down. Yet have no clue what their doing, what the ball is doing, have no idea of where they are standing, what arrow they are throwing too. They just know they got to get the ball out to the right. And just watch it hit the pins. Adjustments are made based on what ball does at the pins.
So when they face those flatter conditions.......it is really tough on them. The concepts and adjustments that have been successful to them, no longer work.
THS is hidden and it just gives the illusion that you are better than what you really are. Everyone on this site knows this, however there are plenty of league bowlers out there that have no idea. One word ignorance.
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The THS doesnt reward spraying the ball. It doesnt punish sprayimg as much as a flatter pattern, but the guy who repeats shots the best on a THS still wins.
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It is not ruined at all, The only problem Bowling has is the bowlers
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It is not ruined at all, The only problem Bowling has is the bowlers
You the real MVP, bro!
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The THS doesnt reward spraying the ball. It doesnt punish sprayimg as much as a flatter pattern, but the guy who repeats shots the best on a THS still wins.
Exactly, there seems to be this idea that you can throw it all over the building and average 240. This is false. The irony is the guys bitching about guys averaging 240 barely avg 200 themselves and they justify it with this "tweener hell" stuff. Which is a built in excuse, if house is "so easy" everyone should be striking.
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I've been bowling with the same team for many years mostly on flat patterns and we like to jumps houses every few years. we ended up in this one house that was a med wall and every team in there tore us a new one and we were at the bottom of the league. the house decided to switch the shot to a flat pattern and all the house hero's started bitching and quitting,my team quickly climbed up to the top three teams.
this year they started with the flat pattern and my team was doing pretty good but at the half more teams quit so the house put back the med wall shot and now we can't compete.
the house hero's now are currently spinning balls like the alpha crux,no rules etc. and destroying the shot in short order BUT it works for them.
IMHO if this is the direction bowling is headed then I don't have much respect for the sport anymore.
BTW the two two handers we had that were doing well on the flat pattern quit this league as far as I know and the IRONY of this house is on their sign out front they have a saying "Lets Make Bowling Great Again"
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Wishful thinking 101....
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I've been bowling with the same team for many years mostly on flat patterns and we like to jumps houses every few years. we ended up in this one house that was a med wall and every team in there tore us a new one and we were at the bottom of the league. the house decided to switch the shot to a flat pattern and all the house hero's started bitching and quitting,my team quickly climbed up to the top three teams.
this year they started with the flat pattern and my team was doing pretty good but at the half more teams quit so the house put back the med wall shot and now we can't compete.
the house hero's now are currently spinning balls like the alpha crux,no rules etc. and destroying the shot in short order BUT it works for them.
IMHO if this is the direction bowling is headed then I don't have much respect for the sport anymore.
BTW the two two handers we had that were doing well on the flat pattern quit this league as far as I know and the IRONY of this house is on their sign out front they have a saying "Lets Make Bowling Great Again"
Another way to take your story:
Bowling well on house shots requires a different mental skill than flat shots. Your opponents have spent years developing that skill while you haven't, and therefore you got beat by bowlers that are better on a house shot than you are. Understanding how to play the lane IS a skill, and if you're repeating shots better and still losing, you unfortunately are not very good at that skill on house conditions. The same people had no experience on flat shots and suffered similarly.
The most alarming part is that in EITHER case, bowlers decided to quit instead of learning that skill.
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I tip my hat to all you, I really do. You all must be bowling on such a high level, I am very envious. Here I though when I saw a thread on bowling being dead, I though it was because of the expense of bowling its self is getting high. But I was completely wrong in my assumption.
Lets face it, a good/great percentage of houses don't give two sheets about you or I wanting to get better, they want people to bowl league with a house shot so everyone feels good about themselves. Keeps the $$$ coming in, plane and simple. I personally found myself doing more open bowling to get that shot I normally don't see ( normally dry), helps me stay honest anyway and also make me see different things. I bowl on a handicap league and sub on a scratch league. Both very different conditions, but also each are different every week. My house seems to get it somewhat.
All that being said, I'm not a lane condition guru, or a technical bowler, I don't walk in and ask what oil pattern is out. I know in my area that bowling is nothing more than a night out for most people.
I haven't been part of this forum for long at all, but it has really opened my eyes to a lot of different things. Tons of great topics and a lot of knowledge on here to take in.
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I've been bowling with the same team for many years mostly on flat patterns and we like to jumps houses every few years. we ended up in this one house that was a med wall and every team in there tore us a new one and we were at the bottom of the league. the house decided to switch the shot to a flat pattern and all the house hero's started bitching and quitting,my team quickly climbed up to the top three teams.
this year they started with the flat pattern and my team was doing pretty good but at the half more teams quit so the house put back the med wall shot and now we can't compete.
the house hero's now are currently spinning balls like the alpha crux,no rules etc. and destroying the shot in short order BUT it works for them.
IMHO if this is the direction bowling is headed then I don't have much respect for the sport anymore.
BTW the two two handers we had that were doing well on the flat pattern quit this league as far as I know and the IRONY of this house is on their sign out front they have a saying "Lets Make Bowling Great Again"
Another way to take your story:
Bowling well on house shots requires a different mental skill than flat shots. Your opponents have spent years developing that skill while you haven't, and therefore you got beat by bowlers that are better on a house shot than you are. Understanding how to play the lane IS a skill, and if you're repeating shots better and still losing, you unfortunately are not very good at that skill on house conditions. The same people had no experience on flat shots and suffered similarly.
The most alarming part is that in EITHER case, bowlers decided to quit instead of learning that skill.
Yes that's correct except for I'm not a quitter. instead I try to figure it out and buy balls to help my game on the wall. I think it's fun and interesting.
BUT, I keep reading on this and other fourms that the THS has ruined bowling but in reality it's not the shot that's ruined bowling,it's the bowler's.
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I though it was because of the expense of bowling its self is getting high.
There is no question about that. Bowling is expensive. I have been stating this for years. Bowlers and Bowling Centers dish out a lot of $$$$$$ for that increase in strike percentage.
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Over the years many have expressed in discussions that bowling was historically a "blue collar" activity. And when so many blue collar jobs were sent to Mexico and overseas the decline in bowling followed.
The new presidency is committed to bring jobs which includes blue collar (Rust belt) back to this country. So if successful, will that equate to a increase in bowling participation? Thoughts?
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Over the years many have expressed in discussions that bowling was historically a "blue collar" activity. And when so many blue collar jobs were sent to Mexico and overseas the decline in bowling followed.
The new presidency is committed to bring jobs which includes blue collar (Rust belt) back to this country. So if successful, will that equate to a increase in bowling participation? Thoughts?
Possible, but I think it's more complicated than that. Bowling has a lot more competition for entertainment dollars today than it did in the past.
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Bowling boomed to unsustainable during the 50's partly as a result of the intrduction of the automatic pinsetter at a time when there was tremendous pent up post war demand for recreational activities.
To the extent bowling is ruined it is really at the pro level. This because thr powers that be on the PBA in the 70's were unable to capitalize on the popularity of the game as a spectator sport that was more popular than golf on tv. Bowling could not capture the deep pocket advertisers that golf, with less viewership, was getting
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Possible, but I think it's more complicated than that. Bowling has a lot more competition for entertainment dollars today than it did in the past.
To me league bowling isn't entertainment, it is sport. However, the occasional practice bowler or music and laser light show bowler---that is entertainment. People that have that desire to compete and to win generally do not lose that desire. It seems bowling as a sport is dying, but entertainment bowling seems to be on the upswing.
Brad
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We have a different definition of entertainment I guess. I bowl leagues because I enjoy the competition, the interaction with fellow bowlers and it's something to do other than sitting home and watching television.
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Possible, but I think it's more complicated than that. Bowling has a lot more competition for entertainment dollars today than it did in the past.
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To me, league bowling is sport, but the occasional bowling outing or the music & laser & light show bowling IS entertainment. People who have that drive & desire to compete and win do not typically lose that desire--which always makes me scratch my head at the decline in league bowling. Although competitive bowling is dying , this "entertainment" bowling seems to be on the upswing.
Brad
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I agree with your definition today, but when the game boomed in the 50's people flocked to join leagues as a recreational activity. That is one of the reasons that the membership boom was unsustainable. Not only are there many more recreational activities available today, but recreational bowling ( moonlight parties etc ) as opposed to organized league bowling is itself an alternative
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What is a wall shot?
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i really wish it was on ABC again
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What is a wall shot?
Assuming you are serious..........
It is a shot where the middle of the lane has plenty of oil, but the outside of the lane is left dry. It creates a condition where the ball hooks so much when it hits the dry area, that it almost looks like the ball hit an obstruction ( like a wall) and bounced off of it.
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Thank you. I'm new at bowling and trying to understand the vernacular.
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I have to sadly agree with BeerLeague that the modern game has been jacked by the introduction of modern ball tech and easy house shots.
I am a Vintage bowler using a Vintage technique (Full Roller/Suitcase Release) and see bowlers with terrible form and technique averaging 200 because they bowl with reactive balls on a walled house shot.
If I took the reactive balls away from them and simply gave them a urethane ball that when rolled correctly would still carry quite well on the same walled house shot, they would no longer average 200 and would be clueless because it requires skill to use a urethane ball.
Yep, the ball manufacturers messed things up and easy house shots finished it.
Gone are the days when men and women in their best suits and dresses sat in respectful silence as they watched bowling giants like Don Carter and Dick Weber use simple rubber balls to create high tension and entertainment.
Check out this short video that talks about how hard and rare it was to bowl a perfect game in the past.
This pretty much puts in perspective how much we have lost in the modern game:
https://youtu.be/09PhjLG2Y80
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Okay, okay we will stay off your lawn...
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I have to sadly agree with BeerLeague that the modern game has been jacked by the introduction of modern ball tech and easy house shots.
I am a Vintage bowler using a Vintage technique (Full Roller/Suitcase Release) and see bowlers with terrible form and technique averaging 200 because they bowl with reactive balls on a walled house shot.
Soooo, you’re judging bowlers who have terrible form and technique while having terrible form and technique yourself. Interesting way to view the sport.
(And make no mistake about it, full roller suitcase may in fact be the worst technique possible.)
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I think my spinner release is probably the worst. :)
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Actually I think More and his high tech urethane ball and fancy finger tip grip are the oroblem . I would post more but have yo go mop another coat if shellac on the lanes😊
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Two things I knew this post would have in it ...
1) A call to force everyone to sport shots,
2) Holding up golf as if it is the sport of all that is true and holy.
Let's handle the second part first: Golf is in a bigger freefall at the participatory level right now than is bowling. We just got our freefall out of the way earlier. Every participatory sport, in regards to organized competition, is dying. That has nothing to do with scoring systems or rulebooks. It has to do with the change in human beings relative to social interaction.
The square-grooves rule in golf started at the PGA level in response to a specific issue: pros hitting shots into the green from the rough, with spin. The proposed changes eventually filtered down to the USGA level. It's worth noting that the groove rule doesn't even fully take effect until 2024. So if you're trying to say the groove rule has saved golf, it hasn't, because it doesn't exist yet unless you have a PGA tour card. You can still use non-conforming clubs in USGA-sanctioned play. You are theoretically prohibited from refurbishing iron heads, but a clubfitter who knows what he's doing can refurb heads and most officials will never be able to tell it was done. Old equipment doesn't cycle out for handicap-setting purposes until 2024, and that's assuming the rule doesn't change again. It's also worth noting that there is a significant movement out there among amateur golfers to start a competing sanctioning organization and disempower the USGA (sound familiar, USBC haters?). To put it plainly, golf has nothing to do with bowling and we have nothing to do with golf, and neither of us is "better."
Now back to the first point -- and this time, I'll be the one to bring up golf. Rounds used for handicap purposes at golf's amateur level can be held on courses with cheater pin locations, no rough, local rules for drops out of sand traps, whatever you choose. And the round can be played alone, a fake name submitted as score attester, or at some golf clubs (like my local one), there's a computer terminal in the office and you submit your own scores. You can cheat like hell if you want.
So why not cheat? Because your bad deeds will be found out the minute you enter a tournament where you're not in control of your own score reporting. There's no incentive to cheat because it doesn't get you anywhere.
In bowling, we don't cheat in league (unless you bowl in the hundreds of leagues that opt to not run tapes, don't run foul lights, don't inspect pins, etc.). We may have an easier shot in league, but so does your local muni golf course. Once you go to a tournament, though, the game changes.
I've bowled a lot of years on a lot of different shots, and the following is true nearly everywhere:
1) You still have to hit a specific something in order to score (whether it's a board or an area),
2) The most accurate/best rollers of the ball still rise to the top of the heap eventually,
3) If you can't score on THS and they can, you need to develop a THS game, because they have, and that means it's a "you" thing and not an "everybody" thing.
Specific to two-handed bowling, I'll add this: For all the talk about how "easy" it makes the game, I know very few people who have successfully made the transition from one- to two-handed bowling. In fact, without exception, I don't know of anyone personally to have done it and improve their average. Two-handed bowling is its own skill that must be perfected just like traditional styles. But you'd think from reading some of these complaints that any old joe can just pick it up and immediately start booking 240. Sort of related to that, you would think THS makes it possible for everyone to average 220, yet everyone doesn't.
It's just not worth turning the sport upside-down to experiment with it. And if you think the majority of people will stick with the sport if it went to difficult conditions, you don't know what you're talking about.
Jess
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1) You still have to hit a specific something in order to score (whether it's a board or an area),
2) The most accurate/best rollers of the ball still rise to the top of the heap eventually,
3) If you can't score on THS and they can, you need to develop a THS game, because they have, and that means it's a "you" thing and not an "everybody" thing.
+1000 (especially #3)
The wall/THS has been around for 40+ years now and people still complain about it. Need to realize that it is not going away. Then it comes down to either bowling sport shot leagues and not complaining about the THS league bowlers or changing your game to utilize the THS pattern and thus scoring better.
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A good 80-90% of house heros averaging 230+ on THS know they can't compete with the pros on tougher shots. Even the ones who puff out their chests telling others they are the best. Bowlers are self aware - don't kid yourself else wise. The other 10-20% are delusional.
The thing is, good bowlers know what is real and what is not. Let's stop pretending that they don't.
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It has been pretty well proven that higher scores tend to create happy (and scoring entitled) customers.
-The continued decline in all of bowling.
-The decline in scratch leagues compared to an increase in "fun" leagues with people that don't care about score.
The larger decline in sanctioned leagues compared to the overall retention of bowlers.
ALL this while scores keep rising and rising. The "easy lanes makes happy and more customers" is a myth.
-Cleanliness of the center and bathrooms.
-Friendless of the staff.
-Ease of accessibility into the center.
-Total cost of the evening.
All, more important to how easy or hard lane conditions are.
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It has been pretty well proven that higher scores tend to create happy (and scoring entitled) customers.
-The continued decline in all of bowling.
-The decline in scratch leagues compared to an increase in "fun" leagues with people that don't care about score.
The larger decline in sanctioned leagues compared to the overall retention of bowlers.
ALL this while scores keep rising and rising. The "easy lanes makes happy and more customers" is a myth.
-Cleanliness of the center and bathrooms.
-Friendless of the staff.
-Ease of accessibility into the center.
-Total cost of the evening.
All, more important to how easy or hard lane conditions are.
I would rather bowling the game survive even if bowling the sport is dying on its ass. I love the game and want to see the alleys stay open at least in my area. Plus I am old enough to know bowling the sport isn't going to take me real far at this point in my middle aged life and can make bowling the game seem like a job which is the last thing I want. I guess some people really want to continue to make money bowling and that is great but there are many of us who don't and I have more than done my fair share to pump money into the bowling economy.
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I think my spinner release is probably the worst. :)
I, too, have spinner release. I don't have to make as many moves as the 3/4 rollers when the lanes change. It has its advantages.
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I think my spinner release is probably the worst. :)
I, too, have spinner release. I don't have to make as many moves as the 3/4 rollers when the lanes change. It has its advantages.
Those spinners at league do shoot some high scores.....specially in my second shift dried out conditions.... sucks to have low tilt.....
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I want to know what people think of the pros that average 225 on house when there are people in the 240s. My opinion, there are two different skills on the elite spectrum of the game. Some have both, but it's not very often. One side, people are able to strike a lot when they are easier, but better than most people are capable of. The other, people are able to repeat at a very high level on patterns designed for bowlers to pay when they miss by 2 boards or so.
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Bowling isn't ruined. No matter if you use 2 hands, or you're a crazy hybrid kinda Tom Smallwood. Lefty, righty. Use plastic, urethane, resin, particle, epoxy, rubber or wood.
The system that governs us have let the children run the damn daycare. If we would enforce certain lane maintenance rules and set our standard high, bowling could be great again. Even IN SPITE of the bowlers wishes themselves. Centers have to enforce rules, and watch as their income dips a bit, but there WOULD be an upswing in open play, by both recreational and serious bowlers. How long that might take, I couldn't tell you, but with the amount of centers going out of business around me, what do we have to lose?
We've let ourselves get here by being lazy as a whole. Given averages and scores that we don't deserve. Entitlement, I believe it's called.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, because there is no place I'd rather be than in a center. Bowling as we know it needs to die so a new reality can be viable.
Would history repeat itself? I sure hope not. I'm growing 4 avid bowlers (girls at that), and I wonder what they'll get excited about.
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>We've let ourselves get here by being lazy as a whole. Given averages and scores that we don't deserve. Entitlement, I believe it's called.
I don't think that is completely fair. I just have went by the rules in place and would be fine if only sports patterns were allowed as I love the game not the high scores. I got pissed about the USBC talking about banning balls I already own not because I need high diffs to score but because spent a fair amount of money on an arsenal in good faith which they aren't acting in because they sat on their ass for 15+ years doing nothing as you say being lazy. If the rules only change for balls going forward fine with that as well for example. Don't personally think there is anything that wrong with bowling in my area except perhaps for Bowlmor owning too many of the centers (which do seem to be a little more healthy than lots of mom and pops out there sounds like, and to be fair one league card for most the centers is nice). There are plenty of different leagues for various skill levels who seem to be doing ok but I also live in the middle of a large metro area. Peace and quiet are nice and all but living in BFE also has a ton of draw backs including less bowling options.
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Equipment isn't the problem and I wish USBC would get that. The lane man is the equalizer. I never hear anyone anywhere say the Peterson is easy. One year, I was using plastic in 6th arrow on one lane and used my resin ball playing fallback on the other lane.
And you know what? My statement may not seem fair, but it's the truth. As a whole we didn't want to work to get better, we just wanted to be better. WE here are the 1% that do want better, but we are over run by the vast amounts of people just wanting to score.
I work in IT. I work with Linux, Windows, and (ugh) MacOS all day. When you create a user that is supposed to have particular permissions and access to certain things, you give them that. Now in Windows, you're given full admin, and can basically screw up whatever you want, if on accident or on purpose.
When you get a user to the spot where they've been given the permissions and access to do their job, and you say the word given, they feel exactly the opposite when we have to take away certain things from a Windows user. Because those things have been taken from them. It's a perception issue. Get to the same place, and one user feels good about the rights they've been given, and one user gets mad because you took away rights they weren't supposed to have.
This change over would entail a lot of people getting upset. But you don't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
Costco offers clear benefits. USBC does not at least for rec leagues which the corporate bowling centers themselves can handle perfectly well. Granted if I was going to put my own money at risk I would agree $50 to make sure its fair would be reasonable but even then how good are they at making it fair. People suck and will cheat when they can for money (even see sandbagging in my rec league for absolutely no reason why except ego I guess). The other edge to not putting my money at risk is I don't give a rats ass about the other guy's equipment. I sure look at my own series score (only thing that matters to me) more than wins or loses. I may be the minority but perfectly fine with that. At some point maybe I will get sanctioned for tournaments but only once I see how this equipment debacle shakes out. In no rush.
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It seems to me we have evolved to the point where everyone understands that the competitive game is played on more demanding conditions than the recreational game. I think the important thing is to make the competitive environment readily available to youth as they develop their game. I dont know of any tournament bowler who wants to play for money on a house shot. Big difference from 30 years ago when nobody knew how to put out a challenging but fair pattern.
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It seems to me we have evolved to the point where everyone understands that the competitive game is played on more demanding conditions than the recreational game. I think the important thing is to make the competitive environment readily available to youth as they develop their game. I font know of any tournament bowler who wants to play foroney on a house shot. Big difference from 30 years ago when nobody knew how yo put out a challenging but fair pattern.
+1. The biggest mistake that can be make is conflating the two. Don't ruin the game trying to save the sport. Save the sport by getting kids to fall in love with the game and as said make the path to the sport side easy if the youth so choose.
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Equipment isn't the problem and I wish USBC would get that. The lane man is the equalizer. I never hear anyone anywhere say the Peterson is easy. One year, I was using plastic in 6th arrow on one lane and used my resin ball playing fallback on the other lane.
And you know what? My statement may not seem fair, but it's the truth. As a whole we didn't want to work to get better, we just wanted to be better. WE here are the 1% that do want better, but we are over run by the vast amounts of people just wanting to score.
I work in IT. I work with Linux, Windows, and (ugh) MacOS all day. When you create a user that is supposed to have particular permissions and access to certain things, you give them that. Now in Windows, you're given full admin, and can basically screw up whatever you want, if on accident or on purpose.
When you get a user to the spot where they've been given the permissions and access to do their job, and you say the word given, they feel exactly the opposite when we have to take away certain things from a Windows user. Because those things have been taken from them. It's a perception issue. Get to the same place, and one user feels good about the rights they've been given, and one user gets mad because you took away rights they weren't supposed to have.
This change over would entail a lot of people getting upset. But you don't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.
I'm with you on this. Been a Linux SysAdmin for 25 years, and MacOS certified. Had to absorb MySQL, PostgreSQL, and MSSQL server admin by osmosis, and you're completely correct here. Solve one problem by giving someone full access, and they blow everything up. Then they come to expect that, because they need that access to get their job done. When you finally bring security controls into place, they scream bloody murder about it because they can't get their work done, complain higher up the chain to someone who overrides your work and better judgment, causing you to have to give them back their access again.
When when they do cause a problem, it's on you to pick up the pieces and fix it, thanks to their bungling.
Oh yeah.. been there and done that, way too many times.
BL.
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Yes I'd say so the numbers are too low
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Who cares if 99% dont want to get better. I do, and as long as the people like me have the environment available to challenge us the game has a chance.
By the way, this will probably shock some of you, but I dont have a problem if a type of house shot was included in a group of tournament patterns. Just dont want to see it on a regular basis. Unlike some people I think the house shot presents its own type of challenges, just different than flat short patterns or flat long patterns. One thing never changes, the ability to be versatile is a great measure of true talent and skill. Part of that versatility is the ability to hit a high scoring pattern as well as a tougher pattern
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-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
USBC hasn't done anything since becoming USBC to warrant $50 dues.
Not that I would support it, but if dues were $50 just for the national level my sport league would have half the league pushing to go unsanctioned
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
Costco offers clear benefits. USBC does not at least for rec leagues which the corporate bowling centers themselves can handle perfectly well. Granted if I was going to put my own money at risk I would agree $50 to make sure its fair would be reasonable but even then how good are they at making it fair. People suck and will cheat when they can for money (even see sandbagging in my rec league for absolutely no reason why except ego I guess). The other edge to not putting my money at risk is I don't give a rats ass about the other guy's equipment. I sure look at my own series score (only thing that matters to me) more than wins or loses. I may be the minority but perfectly fine with that. At some point maybe I will get sanctioned for tournaments but only once I see how this equipment debacle shakes out. In no rush.
I don’t like defending the USBC but it is ran by incompetent people. But, there are clear benefits like a level playing field, equipment guidelines, national tournament to name a few.
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-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
USBC hasn't done anything since becoming USBC to warrant $50 dues.
Not that I would support it, but if dues were $50 just for the national level my sport league would have half the league pushing to go unsanctioned
What are they supposed to do with $13? Chad Murphy is incompetent. Yes, I’ll give you that...but bowlers are fucking crybabies. They don’t get a 200 game pin and it’s the end of the world. $13 barely gets you a good burger, fries and amp drink these days...yet bowlers expect it to move mountains. We are paying for what we get
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
Costco offers clear benefits. USBC does not at least for rec leagues which the corporate bowling centers themselves can handle perfectly well. Granted if I was going to put my own money at risk I would agree $50 to make sure its fair would be reasonable but even then how good are they at making it fair. People suck and will cheat when they can for money (even see sandbagging in my rec league for absolutely no reason why except ego I guess). The other edge to not putting my money at risk is I don't give a rats ass about the other guy's equipment. I sure look at my own series score (only thing that matters to me) more than wins or loses. I may be the minority but perfectly fine with that. At some point maybe I will get sanctioned for tournaments but only once I see how this equipment debacle shakes out. In no rush.
I don’t like defending the USBC but it is ran by incompetent people. But, there are clear benefits like a level playing field, equipment guidelines, national tournament to name a few.
Those are clear benefits to a national governing board but not necessarily the USBC. If they think they don't have much money now wait until they start banning people's arsenal and half the leagues in the country go unsanctioned.
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
Costco offers clear benefits. USBC does not at least for rec leagues which the corporate bowling centers themselves can handle perfectly well. Granted if I was going to put my own money at risk I would agree $50 to make sure its fair would be reasonable but even then how good are they at making it fair. People suck and will cheat when they can for money (even see sandbagging in my rec league for absolutely no reason why except ego I guess). The other edge to not putting my money at risk is I don't give a rats ass about the other guy's equipment. I sure look at my own series score (only thing that matters to me) more than wins or loses. I may be the minority but perfectly fine with that. At some point maybe I will get sanctioned for tournaments but only once I see how this equipment debacle shakes out. In no rush.
I don’t like defending the USBC but it is ran by incompetent people. But, there are clear benefits like a level playing field, equipment guidelines, national tournament to name a few.
Those are clear benefits to a national governing board but not necessarily the USBC. If they think they don't have much money now wait until they start banning people's arsenal and half the leagues in the country go unsanctioned.
Do you have facts to back up your claim or are you just fear mongering?
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All I can do is wait and see. Reason says any rules they come up with would only apply going forward but have yet to see that confirmed. Right now just waiting in the dark. All because of some major butt hurt about lofting due to the double burn and one man's ego.
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
Costco offers clear benefits. USBC does not at least for rec leagues which the corporate bowling centers themselves can handle perfectly well. Granted if I was going to put my own money at risk I would agree $50 to make sure its fair would be reasonable but even then how good are they at making it fair. People suck and will cheat when they can for money (even see sandbagging in my rec league for absolutely no reason why except ego I guess). The other edge to not putting my money at risk is I don't give a rats ass about the other guy's equipment. I sure look at my own series score (only thing that matters to me) more than wins or loses. I may be the minority but perfectly fine with that. At some point maybe I will get sanctioned for tournaments but only once I see how this equipment debacle shakes out. In no rush.
I don’t like defending the USBC but it is ran by incompetent people. But, there are clear benefits like a level playing field, equipment guidelines, national tournament to name a few.
Those are clear benefits to a national governing board but not necessarily the USBC. If they think they don't have much money now wait until they start banning people's arsenal and half the leagues in the country go unsanctioned.
Do you have facts to back up your claim or are you just fear mongering?
If you are referring to the rumors about USBC imposing new ball specs that would make many current balls illegal, please see the following links where this has all been discussed previously:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sxTQoMHNCcjnxhi7LK1sVEjN6YiZyFKI/view
https://www.facebook.com/USBCChadMurphy/posts/818683678308781
http://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/a-thought-on-the-proposed-ball-specs-adjustment-by-usbc-t315376.0.html
http://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/usbc-possible-outlawing-balls-t315344.0.html
http://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/above180-podcast-mo-pinel-on-what-the-possible-usbc-rule-changes-mean-to-you-t315381.0.html
http://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/about-making-some-balls-illegal-t315345.0.html
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They aren’t going to force anyone to stop using equipment. They know it will be a PR nightmare and poorly received by the wall babies. They limited the diff before, we survived it then, and will again. Besides we know more now than we ever have wrt layouts. We can make anything hook.
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Speaking strictly for my area, banning house shots would be devastating. I could see losing at least half of all bowlers. Even with easy patterns and high tech balls, the number of honor scores are fairly low. True, averages are higher but the majority are still not 200 and above. If we force the majority to bowl on tough patterns, they're just not going to have fun bowling 120 games. And for what it costs to bowl and all the other things they could be doing... they'd just stop bowling. I don't really care for how bowling has evolved over the last thirty years but i definitely don't want to see the sport lose more people.
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does anyone know why cosmic bowlers don't join leagues?
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Speaking strictly for my area, banning house shots would be devastating. I could see losing at least half of all bowlers. Even with easy patterns and high tech balls, the number of honor scores are fairly low. True, averages are higher but the majority are still not 200 and above. If we force the majority to bowl on tough patterns, they're just not going to have fun bowling 120 games. And for what it costs to bowl and all the other things they could be doing... they'd just stop bowling. I don't really care for how bowling has evolved over the last thirty years but i definitely don't want to see the sport lose more people.
Some people seem to think that if a 220 average bowler drops 30 pins to 190 because of a tougher pattern, than a 165 average bowler drops to 135. It doesn't work that way.
We run a true sport league, and have been for about 10 years now, and the league is made up of all styles and levels or competitors, as it isn't a money league, more a league for education. The drop in a bowlers average is definitely on a curve.
Besides, no one, including the USBC, is saying that all leagues should go to a "SPORT" condition. Most people who have voiced their opinion in favor of it, would just like to see a little more of a blend, instead of a flat out wall, to at least showcase good bowling to equate to good "scoring". There have been multiple times in my life, that I have thrown the ball not great for a set, but "scored" really high because of all the miss area on the lane, BUT have also had those times that I have thrown the ball great, but scored marginally because of lack of carry and subsequent transition, because I wasn't throwing it bad enough to "use the pattern". Throw five shots at five different places on the lane, and ALL five strike, you are still bowling on a fresh shot. Label five shots on top of each other, you have altered the pattern more, and will change the shot.
Another problem is vocabulary in this industry. If the shot isn't called a "house shot", than it MUST be a "sport shot", and bowlers think that way and get their panties in a bunch before ever throwing a shot. It's just not true.
Use the term "modified house shot", and people perceive it as easier than calling a shot a "challenge pattern", when in all fairness, they probably have about the same ratios.
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
This I like. Great idea !!
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Speaking strictly for my area, banning house shots would be devastating. I could see losing at least half of all bowlers. Even with easy patterns and high tech balls, the number of honor scores are fairly low. True, averages are higher but the majority are still not 200 and above. If we force the majority to bowl on tough patterns, they're just not going to have fun bowling 120 games. And for what it costs to bowl and all the other things they could be doing... they'd just stop bowling. I don't really care for how bowling has evolved over the last thirty years but i definitely don't want to see the sport lose more people.
^this
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
This I like. Great idea !!
This I could buy as not dropping crap suddenly in our laps. For rec leagues though I wouldn't require anything on the ratios (don't want to discourage newbies). Besides anybody bowling rec leagues talking shit about a 200 average shouldn't bother anyone because they are only embarrassing themselves.
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There should be a difference between the game and sport. That would be easy.
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Funny thing about ratios. Most decent scratch bowlers would have a better look with s couple of extra loads blended out to the gutter. I remember one year in our sport league when the Cheetah played easier than the house shot for most of us because it wasn't so over/under
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Funny thing about ratios. Most decent scratch bowlers would have a better look with s couple of extra loads blended out to the gutter. I remember one year in our sport league when the Cheetah played easier than the house shot for most of us because it wasn't so over/under
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Funny thing about ratios. Most decent scratch bowlers would have a better look with s couple of extra loads blended out to the gutter. I remember one year in our sport league when the Cheetah played easier than the house shot for most of us because it wasn't so over/under
Is that a good thing or bad thing? I agree with you, but I feel like that supports those that are more accurate more times than not. Not saying people averaging 240 on a walled shot are talented, but it is quite forgiving for people that aren't near as accurate if you have a ball that matches up.
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IMO these things are overdue:
-Max diff at .050
-Increase bowling ball hardness by 5%
-set and enforcing a ratio rule of 10:1 for 2019
—reduce the ratio to 9:1 for 2020
—reduce the ratio to 8:1 for 2021
....go all the way to 6:1 slowly reducing the ratio over a half decade
Then, sanction leagues as recreational, challenge and sport
-Lastly, increase dues to $50 annually. This is necessary to run a governing body. Ffs people pay $50 just for the privilege to shop at Costco
I don't have a problem with the dues increase if it went 100% to member benefits (tasteful awards for the same things we gave awards for in the 80s/90s, bolster tournaments, etc.). If it goes to salaries at USBC HQ you can count me out.
As for your equipment recommendations, I like mine a whole lot better:
- Get rid of any and all static weight limitations. Load that baby up with 6 pounds of side weight if you want; I want to see you try to control that. As long as the ball weighs 16 or less and has no metal in it, put the pin on the ball's butt and the MB in grip center and have at it. I drill my own stuff and occasionally drill wacky patters on old balls just to experiment and I've yet to find the magic beanstalk.
- I almost don't care at all about durometer ratings. What was the limit back in the 80s, 68? 70? Whatever it was, that's good enough. No reason to raise it and eliminate options.
- No limit on differential. Not one bit. See my comment about 6 pounds of side weight. You've got guys thinking equipment alone can put them on TV and it can't.
Why do I take this position? Because if you keep doing the things that got you where you are now, you're going to get associated with old stodgy bowling in craptastic bowling alleys filled with cheap cigarette smoke and bad lighting. The current and next generations are tech-heads. So open the equipment up to tech head appeal. It's not going to change anything in regards to who is at the top of the sport but at least the kids may be intrigued.
When I see people wanting to tighten equipment specs, I automatically assume they're jealous of other bowlers or bitter because the game changed under their feet over the last 50 years and they wouldn't/couldn't adapt. And my mind immediately goes to this older guy I bowled with 10 years ago who liked telling the kids in the local YABA league that they had no talent, or at least not as much as he did growing up, because "the balls do everything for you today." Nice ambassador for our sport, he was.
Jess
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Actually I think anyone averaging 230+ on a house shot is talented. They repeat shots much better than they receive credit for doing. Nobody is averaging that high by spraying the ball all over. What is often the case with theses high averages is a lack of versatility.
Bottom line, I respect the talent of players who can average really high on a house shot, but I respect someone even more who can compete on a 50 foot pattern, and a 32 foot pattern.
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^^^^^^ Avabob ^^^^^^
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^^^^^^ Avabob ^^^^^^
Yep he knows his stuff for sure.
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Pattern lengths with dry back ends is the problem. Mandate a minimum amount of oil on the lane that matters (3 units is not enough) and oil all the way to the pins. Problem solved. You will have to make shots and not carry the world. Issues: A lot of people that want it easy will quit. Proprietors will complain about the extra oil as well.
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Pattern lengths with dry back ends is the problem. Mandate a minimum amount of oil on the lane that matters (3 units is not enough) and oil all the way to the pins. Problem solved. You will have to make shots and not carry the world. Issues: A lot of people that want it easy will quit. Proprietors will complain about the extra oil as well.
I don't know about oiling all the way to the pins. Our machine was effed up one night and put down oil all the way to the pins from 1 to about 15 board on the right side. The left side seemed normal. Both lefties in our league shot over 600 that night as usual. All of the right handers shot under 500. I sanded my No Rules down to 500 and cranked it down between the 5 and 10 board....it stayed there lol.
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Pattern lengths with dry back ends is the problem. Mandate a minimum amount of oil on the lane that matters (3 units is not enough) and oil all the way to the pins. Problem solved. You will have to make shots and not carry the world. Issues: A lot of people that want it easy will quit. Proprietors will complain about the extra oil as well.
I don't know about oiling all the way to the pins. Our machine was effed up one night and put down oil all the way to the pins from 1 to about 15 board on the right side. The left side seemed normal. Both lefties in our league shot over 600 that night as usual. All of the right handers shot under 500. I sanded my No Rules down to 500 and revved it down the 5 board....it stayed there lol.
yeah.. That is the way bowling used to be. They used to buff from the end of the pattern to the pins. There was no bone dry back end. You will have to slow down and really turn the ball if you want the ball to hook. Or heaven forbid actually point it toward the pocket. You won't be able to throw 20 mph with a ton of angle and just touch the head pin and watch the pins fly and get a strike.
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That was in the lacquer era. Oil all the way to the head pin today and the lane man will gkadkt take you out to the alley when he finishes with ball calls. If you find any back end on anything over 44 ft of buff you are better than me.
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That was in the lacquer era. Oil all the way to the head pin today and the lane man will gkadkt take you out to the alley when he finishes with ball calls. If you find any back end on anything over 44 ft of buff you are better than me.
They need better ball pickups for the machines then. I suck, but I would rather have them tough where everyone has to make premium shots.
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That's fine, but you don't need oil buffed all the way to the pin deck. Badger (52 ft) and Scorpion ( 47 ft) will make you square up. By the way if you want them tough, some 40 ft flat patterns will give you all the challenge you want
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When I see people wanting to tighten equipment specs, I automatically assume they're jealous of other bowlers or bitter because the game changed under their feet over the last 50 years and they wouldn't/couldn't adapt. And my mind immediately goes to this older guy I bowled with 10 years ago who liked telling the kids in the local YABA league that they had no talent, or at least not as much as he did growing up, because "the balls do everything for you today." Nice ambassador for our sport, he was.
Jess
I am in agreement with this sentiment.
When ever someone posts ideas for radical or significant rule changes, they almost always smell like they they are trying legistalating away what is viewed as someone else's advantage so that the only viable way to approach bowling their own "A" game.
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I am in agreement with this sentiment.
When ever someone posts ideas for radical or significant rule changes, they almost always smell like they they are trying legistalating away what is viewed as someone else's advantage so that the only viable way to approach bowling their own "A" game.
I'll go one step further than that: Regular league shouldn't be tough. It should be average at worst.
The USBC got it right with the PBA Experience leagues. And guess what? No one wanted to bowl on them. That right there tells you all you need to know. It was bowlers' choice, and the bowlers themselves voted not to go for it. That's the thing that drives me out of my mind about talk of artificially cutting back scoring pace for the typical house league/house bowler: We gave them the choice a decade ago, they chose Option B instead, so now we're going to go tell them, "Sorry, we don't like the choice you made so we're going to take your choice away"?
I bowled on PBAX league a couple of summers and the first year we had a no-thumber and his wife (who had a pretty fair rev rate herself) join our league. He was booking 225 on THS and she probably around 180. A month in, his average was 170 and hers around 150. They both quit. I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm not spending that kind of money not to be able to strike, simple as that." And there you go.
If we're going to keep longing for the prestige of golf, it should be noted that handicaps are set on courses set up as easy as they can be set up, teeing off from typically the white tees. But there are a lot of bowlers who want us bowling from the blues (or even the golds) on a tournament shot just for the purpose of setting base averages. Kind of silly, IMO.
Jess
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I am in agreement with this sentiment.
When ever someone posts ideas for radical or significant rule changes, they almost always smell like they they are trying legistalating away what is viewed as someone else's advantage so that the only viable way to approach bowling their own "A" game.
I'll go one step further than that: Regular league shouldn't be tough. It should be average at worst.
The USBC got it right with the PBA Experience leagues. And guess what? No one wanted to bowl on them. That right there tells you all you need to know. It was bowlers' choice, and the bowlers themselves voted not to go for it. That's the thing that drives me out of my mind about talk of artificially cutting back scoring pace for the typical house league/house bowler: We gave them the choice a decade ago, they chose Option B instead, so now we're going to go tell them, "Sorry, we don't like the choice you made so we're going to take your choice away"?
I bowled on PBAX league a couple of summers and the first year we had a no-thumber and his wife (who had a pretty fair rev rate herself) join our league. He was booking 225 on THS and she probably around 180. A month in, his average was 170 and hers around 150. They both quit. I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm not spending that kind of money not to be able to strike, simple as that." And there you go.
If we're going to keep longing for the prestige of golf, it should be noted that handicaps are set on courses set up as easy as they can be set up, teeing off from typically the white tees. But there are a lot of bowlers who want us bowling from the blues (or even the golds) on a tournament shot just for the purpose of setting base averages. Kind of silly, IMO.
Jess
I think you are failing to take into account that all PBA leagues (in my area) are summer leagues. Bowling and summer don't mix for most of us.
If the PBA leagues were offered as winter league offerings, I'd be there with bells on.
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Just bowl on everything. Improvise, adapt, overcome. You will be a better bowler for it.
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Most who bowl league as stated don't want any challenge added to the game and that is fine. Sport and PBA experience leagues will never take off as the interest is just not there to support them. I would love to try one myself but like most on the board we have a love for the sport more than most USBC bowlers hence we take time to read boards like this one....
I am in agreement with this sentiment.
When ever someone posts ideas for radical or significant rule changes, they almost always smell like they they are trying legistalating away what is viewed as someone else's advantage so that the only viable way to approach bowling their own "A" game.
I'll go one step further than that: Regular league shouldn't be tough. It should be average at worst.
The USBC got it right with the PBA Experience leagues. And guess what? No one wanted to bowl on them. That right there tells you all you need to know. It was bowlers' choice, and the bowlers themselves voted not to go for it. That's the thing that drives me out of my mind about talk of artificially cutting back scoring pace for the typical house league/house bowler: We gave them the choice a decade ago, they chose Option B instead, so now we're going to go tell them, "Sorry, we don't like the choice you made so we're going to take your choice away"?
I bowled on PBAX league a couple of summers and the first year we had a no-thumber and his wife (who had a pretty fair rev rate herself) join our league. He was booking 225 on THS and she probably around 180. A month in, his average was 170 and hers around 150. They both quit. I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm not spending that kind of money not to be able to strike, simple as that." And there you go.
If we're going to keep longing for the prestige of golf, it should be noted that handicaps are set on courses set up as easy as they can be set up, teeing off from typically the white tees. But there are a lot of bowlers who want us bowling from the blues (or even the golds) on a tournament shot just for the purpose of setting base averages. Kind of silly, IMO.
Jess
I think you are failing to take into account that all PBA leagues (in my area) are summer leagues. Bowling and summer don't mix for most of us.
If the PBA leagues were offered as winter league offerings, I'd be there with bells on.
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B.I.G.........
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I am in agreement with this sentiment.
When ever someone posts ideas for radical or significant rule changes, they almost always smell like they they are trying legistalating away what is viewed as someone else's advantage so that the only viable way to approach bowling their own "A" game.
I'll go one step further than that: Regular league shouldn't be tough. It should be average at worst.
The USBC got it right with the PBA Experience leagues. And guess what? No one wanted to bowl on them. That right there tells you all you need to know. It was bowlers' choice, and the bowlers themselves voted not to go for it. That's the thing that drives me out of my mind about talk of artificially cutting back scoring pace for the typical house league/house bowler: We gave them the choice a decade ago, they chose Option B instead, so now we're going to go tell them, "Sorry, we don't like the choice you made so we're going to take your choice away"?
I bowled on PBAX league a couple of summers and the first year we had a no-thumber and his wife (who had a pretty fair rev rate herself) join our league. He was booking 225 on THS and she probably around 180. A month in, his average was 170 and hers around 150. They both quit. I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm not spending that kind of money not to be able to strike, simple as that." And there you go.
If we're going to keep longing for the prestige of golf, it should be noted that handicaps are set on courses set up as easy as they can be set up, teeing off from typically the white tees. But there are a lot of bowlers who want us bowling from the blues (or even the golds) on a tournament shot just for the purpose of setting base averages. Kind of silly, IMO.
Jess
I think you are failing to take into account that all PBA leagues (in my area) are summer leagues. Bowling and summer don't mix for most of us.
If the PBA leagues were offered as winter league offerings, I'd be there with bells on.
Jess's comments are dead on. From experience, I can confidently say that if you started a PBA winter league, you might be there on league night by yourself.
We have summer PBA leagues in this area at a few different houses, and none of them have a big draw. There is only one winter PBA league and last year it had 6 teams. Six teams...in a area with many bowling alleys with most of which have very good league business.
Face the facts, your average league bowler does NOT want to bowl on a sport shot.
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I bowled 50 years ago, and I guarantee that we couldn't hold a candle tobyhe best bowlers of today.
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After re-reading the title of the thread I agree, bowling is ruined for good. So all of you guys that average better than a 210ish house hack like myself should just quit and take up golf, pickle ball, darts, shuffle board, horseshoes, croquet, or whatever floats your boat.
I'm gonna stick with it.
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I think you are failing to take into account that all PBA leagues (in my area) are summer leagues. Bowling and summer don't mix for most of us.
If the PBA leagues were offered as winter league offerings, I'd be there with bells on.
Nope, not failing to take that into account. I bowled three straight years on a fall scratch league. They used the PBA patterns the first year and then switched to Red-White-Blue the next two years.
The reason they switched after one year was half the league said they weren't coming back if the shot stayed the same. Even worse, we didn't run confirmation tapes the year we ran PBA patterns and I can tell you from experience that we were on "PBA Lite" for lack of a better way to state it, especially when we went to Shark and Chameleon.
The next two years, the R/W/B years, people threw a b****fest during "Blue" cycle, to the point that by rule, we were supposed to put Red, White and Blue in a hat and draw the pattern for the finals. We had to throw out Blue after a couple of teams threatened to walk.
And 2 of these guys are active PBA regional bowlers.
Jess
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Not to beat a dead horse here, but it has been bugging me lately.
Really?
Usually, when someone starts with this, they’ve got a bag of switches at the hand.
I see people averaging 220+ on "house" conditions, with no real versatility, and no game other than big revs. Their spare shooting sucks. I see guys that can miss by 5 boards in or out and still crush the pocket. The same guys can easily shoot 450 without the free hook outside and hold inside.
I also see guys in more competitive leagues, where the shot is intentionally challenging, bring a 20X average into a tourney and get pins. These same guys can average 220+ on walls. This hardly seems ethical and it hurts turnout.
And this, in a nutshell, is why bowling needs to separate the game from the sport.
I guess my point is ... Can we PLEASE get rid of wall shots?
Not going to happen, at least not where recreational leagues are involved. Owners/proprietors are out to build and please an ever increasing clientele. If they feel like having an “easy†THS out there will do that, then that’s what they will run.
I remember the local USBC/ABC office would run tapes regularly to check for illegal "block" shots, which are known as "walls" or "THS" today. What happened?
As do I. Heck, I used to be one of the people running the tapes. I think, and it is my opinion only, that differing opinions at the highest level lead to reducing the requirements of the game. Remember, the BPAA has/had the ear of USBC, and has at least SOME influence on them. Maybe they convinced them that whatever was good for owners/proprietors was good for bowling in the long run.
The combination of reactive resin equipment, blocked walls, and pins that fly like crazy has turned bowling into parody of itself. Shot making is no longer rewarded and accuracy seems to have taken a backseat to power. If you have both, then you are deadly but us mere mortals cannot hit dimes while putting 500 RPM on the ball
While I tend to agree with you, we must admit to ourselves that we are in the GREAT minority, and as such, stand little, if any, chance of having our viewpoint validated because, simply, the vast majority just don’t see it that way. SORRY, but I understand.
.. and that brings up the 2 handed / thumb-less argument which I will not engage in but I will say I believe it should be illegal.
And you would be wrong.
Yes, it’s different, and no, I can’t do it, but lots of people can’t do what I can, and they didn’t outlaw me because I had a physically superior technique (at least it was “back in the dayâ€).
I know its an old, worn out subject, but the game has been destroyed. Some people will argue that it has evolved. I reject that. Where is the real test of skill?
I rejected it as well for a loooooong time, but the truth is not always what we perceive it to be. The skill challenge is still there, it’s just that the skill set has changed. Change is the ONLY thing in existence that you can count on. NOTHING in this life exists in a static state, why should bowling be any different?
I think we could take a lesson from the PGA .... they got rid of square grooves (to put premium on accuracy over power and hit fairways)
And the USBC lowered the max diff. on balls a while back in an attempt to do just that, as well as revisiting the rules on coefficient of friction for modern cover stocks.
This was done to help limit the effect that equipment had on the players physical abilities, or the replacement thereof.
and make anchored putting illegal (it gives the golfer a physical advantage). You can draw the same parallels to bowling....
Well, perhaps, but maybe not. Anchored putting is strictly a skill you can learn, while two handed release in bowling is somewhat of a superior PHYSICAL ability.
EVERYBODY can learn to anchor putt, but not everybody can bowl two hand style.
Physical ability will ALWAYS trump skill, because skill is a learned trait while physical ability is an innate quality you are either born with or not. Just because someone else has the ability that I don’t does not mean I should exclude them because of it.
Should we ban left handlers? Or people who slide on the “wrong†foot? How about people who can throw a “backup†ball, or a full roller?
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You will never get bowlers to agree to bowl on tougher conditions until you get them to agree that "amateurs" shouldn't bowl for money.
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Anybody that bowls on THS risking their own money gets what they deserve. Sport shot leagues are common outside the sticks. Let us rec bowlers have our walled shot and leave us be. I know more of us make fun of that guy that takes a just for fun league super serious and kicks the ball return than think wow he is really good. Plenty of flat patterns and scratch leagues to be found if so desired and its not my fault you may live in BFE with one bowling alley that won't do what you want. If you want to make THS averages not count in tournaments I am ok with that but otherwise don't punish us that love bowling the game in an effort to save bowling the sport. Some of us have accepted we are never going pro and just love the game. Personally I would probably still be willing to bowl on some pattern that drops my average 40 pins if I had no choice but I am probably in the minority.