Post by: J_w73 on February 16, 2010, 07:53:11 AM
Yeah the coverstocks and cores have something to do with it but has the advances in the lane machines made the shot easier. They can strip every drop off the lane and put the oil exactly where you want it and at the volume you want. Back in the old days you had to clean/strip the lanes by hand. I doubt that was done consistantly. You also had oil metering that wasn't very accurate or consistant as far as volume and placement.
I just ask because I see guys tearing up house shots with older technology urethane. We had a guy average 222 with his plastic spare ball last year.
He would have been a god in the 60's , 70's, and 80's if he averaged 220 with a yellow dot.
I'm not an expert how things used to be done so if anyone has any input that would be great..
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
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Post by: JustRico on February 16, 2010, 04:01:44 PM
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Post by: Skizriz on February 16, 2010, 04:15:33 PM
Take me for example. I have learned more from this site alone than most bowlers in the "golden age" could learn in a lifetime.
I couldn't imagine how little my game would have progressed since I started if I would have had to figure out everything through trial and error. I know it will never compare to a flesh and blood quality coach, but that is pretty much unavailable to me.
Just a little food for thought. And a thanks to the people on sites like this willing to help out others like me.
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Post by: leftyinsnellville on February 16, 2010, 04:34:56 PM
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Post by: Bluff on February 16, 2010, 04:53:03 PM
Right side is the Only Way
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Post by: leftyinsnellville on February 16, 2010, 05:14:23 PM
quote:quote:
I also think that, in general, top level bowlers are better than they used to be back in the 50s through the 80s. There was a day that only a few guys could really put the revs on the ball, and most of them didn't have great control. It's pretty common these days to see higher rev players with pretty good accuracy. It may be that more and more bowlers have better releases than they used to...I regularly see bowlers throw with really high rev rates but they don't contort their body like the high rev bowlers used to back in the day.
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bowlers today are nowhere near as good as they were back inthe day.in the early days a premium was placed on shot making,nowadays anybody who can hit a 6 board area can average 220 on a ths. even in the pba who wins the guys who can split boards,thats why we see wrw jr and chris barnes every week ,and mike devaney is lucky to make one show a year
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KING OF THE WALLED UP HOUSE SHOT 300!!!!!!
I don't buy it. How is it that in every other sport players have gotten better and better as the years go by, but bowlers today aren't near as good as they used to be? I'm not saying that the conditions and the equipment haven't improved (as they have in just about every other sport also), but I've been bowling for 37 years and I've watched top end bowlers get better and better as the years go by.
Post by: J_w73 on February 16, 2010, 05:30:16 PM
put him on on a flat patern and more than likely he isn't going to be within 50 pins of his average. If you grow up with that you don't know what a tough shot is or how to handle it.
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: bighook69 on February 16, 2010, 06:51:27 PM
Obviously this does not apply to guys who average 220 at one house where they have 5+ boards of room... but if you look at a lot of the "top" bowlers in their respective leagues they usually have a good grasp on the "modern games" mechanics and speaking about crankers in specific (because it was a almost non-existent style in the 50''s-60''s) the whole idea about putting revolutions on the ball is to extend your mistake room in the pocket... so if you say (just random numbers) someone from the 50''s era might have only had 1.5-2 boards mistake room to strike... a modern cranker may have 3-4 boards on that same shot with the same ball...
I believe the "modern game" which is usually a reliance on high entry angle to the pins makes the majority of high caliber bowlers today better than the bowlers of the same caliber from decades ago, even using old equipment, because modern bowlers simply have a physical advantage with the rev rates and speed... accuracy is huge in bowling but "power" is a great way to get around it (to X amount obviously).
Edited on 2/16/2010 7:53 PM
Post by: Tondo on March 20, 2010, 03:35:50 AM
I also bowled against guys who had the newest balls out and I had stuff that was 1 to 2 yrs old. Mind you they were 5 to 10 pins behind me and they caught up to me with their new stuff. Technology is making up the difference not the bowlers being better. Another dynamic is coming into play, the price of lineage keeps going up. So most people do not practice as much as they did say in the 70's and 80's.
Post by: J_w73 on March 20, 2010, 03:45:14 AM
quote:
Sorry to burst most everyone's bubble, but having been through all of the technology changes from rubber to plastic to urethane to reactives to reactives with dynamic cores I can definitely tell you it is purely the ball that is making the difference. I know guys that I bowled with in the late 80's that were 185 to 190, but put reactive in their hand and they are now 215 to 220. Put reactive with a dynamic core in their hand and now they are 225 plus.
I also bowled against guys who had the newest balls out and I had stuff that was 1 to 2 yrs old. Mind you they were 5 to 10 pins behind me and they caught up to me with their new stuff. Technology is making up the difference not the bowlers being better. Another dynamic is coming into play, the price of lineage keeps going up. So most people do not practice as much as they did say in the 70's and 80's.
How do you account for guys averaging 220 plus with plastic.. we had a guy do that all last year..
averaging 220 back in the plastic era was pretty much unheard of wasn't it..
that was top pro quality... granted this is a house shot but I don't know what year the pro shot started becoming alot different than what the standard bowler saw in league..
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: Tondo on March 20, 2010, 05:54:26 AM
quote:
How do you account for guys averaging 220 plus with plastic.. we had a guy do that all last year..
averaging 220 back in the plastic era was pretty much unheard of wasn't it..
that was top pro quality... granted this is a house shot but I don't know what year the pro shot started becoming alot different than what the standard bowler saw in league..
I guess you are missing the point. I never said a person could not average 220 now days with plastic, did I? It is a matter of matching up. Massive wet/ dry throw bullets up the first arrow. My father and another guy averaged over 250 in a summer league with rubber in 1978 or 1979. Massive wet/dry.
My point is more people are scoring higher now than in the past. Just look at the rise in 300 games per year since the balls have become more aggressive. Everybody and their brother can now shoot 300. Also a good bowler is a good bowler no matter the equipment. Look ay WRW he has won on tour with plastic. Yes, plastic, he won using plastic when Ebonite wanted him to use the lastest resin. He won with urethane and he has won with all types oh resins. Get the point?
Post by: ambi1 on March 20, 2010, 06:03:41 AM
For the average guy, playing in THS, most of the improvement has been thru technology. Not to say there is a small percentage of house bowlers who aren't good enough to start with. But today I see so many wrong styles of swing, timing, releases and yet the carry compared to urethane in the 80's is phenomenal.
Low track releases that would leave a 5-7 split before still have a decent chance to carry today. And right there and then is aleady a 10 to 20 pins difference, depending on the previous frames.
For the pro level, I would say the skill level is about the same, but maybe on different areas of emphasis.
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DARK BEER IT IS THEN!
Post by: JohnP on March 20, 2010, 11:20:16 AM
quote:
Sorry to burst most everyone's bubble, but having been through all of the technology changes from rubber to plastic to urethane to reactives to reactives with dynamic cores I can definitely tell you it is purely the ball that is making the difference. I know guys that I bowled with in the late 80's that were 185 to 190, but put reactive in their hand and they are now 215 to 220. Put reactive with a dynamic core in their hand and now they are 225 plus.
Let me set the oil pattern and I'll bring every one of them back to below that 180 - 190 average! The balls do play a part in the high scores, but the lane man still rules./ -- JohnP
Post by: trash heap on March 20, 2010, 11:56:23 AM
quote:
I had talked to Billy O about his working with Carmen Salvino on the development of the C System... and in talking about it Billy mentioned that Carmen felt that bowlers today are better than bowlers from "back in the day", and that scores are higher now because of advanced equipment but also because bowlers are also at a higher level.
The research and development going into this sport is NOT NEEDED. Most of this R&D has just increased price. Why do we need this Chemical Friction (C System) garbage in bowling balls? The huge leaps in the modern bowling ball have been made. They are selling you small little improvements now and charging you big $$$$ for it.
I really believe as a Society we have become so trained (like monkeys) that we automatically believe NEW is BETTER. If someone else has the NEW then we need something NEWER to be better. Forget about practice and hard work.
Everyone is looking for an edge. For those that have the high skills and abilities the little improvements (technology) will work for them. But this looking for the edge concept has come down into amateur level. Reasoning: "if it works with the professional, it should work for me".
Fishing is starting to become that way now. I know someone who goes to professional tournaments. Its all about who has the latest gadgets. They will sit and discuss all the latest toys to come out for the current year. Getting down to the specifics of things. Some how it's now about what you have in your boat instead of the success you have in the competition. Sound Familiar??
Golf is the same way. Who care's what you are shooting? It's about showing everyone that new set of clubs you got. Look how pretty they are (Shiny, you can see your face in that huge Driver head). These clubs are supposed to be better than the new ones you bought last year because some pro tells you the metal and high tech design (it took them four years to develop it) will get your ball out on the fairway farther than you ever could. What happens. You shoot the same scores as you did last year.
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Post by: TamerBowling on March 20, 2010, 01:02:27 PM
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Post by: JohnP on March 20, 2010, 10:34:08 PM
quote:
Balls in the resin era ( which is now approaching its 20th year ) give higher carrypotential than balls from the prior era, but do nothing to help you find the pocket easier. Indeed, because of their friction, they actually make it tougher to stay in the pocket over a period of games.
Bob, I've got to disagree with you if the shot is a THS. Back in the rubber and plastic ball days I bowled on some pretty strong blocks, but don't ever remember having more than a 3 board area to get to the pocket. With the resin balls some times I've got 5. Resin reacts more strongly to the dry on the outside of the lane bringing the shot back better. Now, if you're talking about PBA or sports shots I agree with you. -- JohnP
Post by: Doug Sterner on March 20, 2010, 10:53:21 PM
1. balls are more aggressive which helps the guys with the weaker releases get the ball to the pocket and carry better.
2. the new lane machines have made it easier for a lane man to put out a shot that is able to be tweaked when a given style of bowler is struggling. again this helps more people score better.
3. most of the lanes have changed from wood to synthetics now which do not transition as fast or as much as wood lanes do.
4. the price of the new bowling balls has not risen appreciably in the last 20 years. I paid $145 drilled for a NIB Blue Hammer in 1991. Today the top end balls are $195. Yes $50 is significant but when compared to the price increases seen in other industries it's not bad. I mean golf clubs have gone up way more than 30% in that time and let's not even talk about the auto industry...
So when you factor in stronger balls, softer lane conditions, oils that do not carry down, synthetic lanes that do not transition much and you get much higher scores. What you are also seeing is a wider variety of bowling styles shooting the bigger scores than ever because of the combination.
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Post by: JessN16 on March 20, 2010, 11:02:46 PM
Read Doug Kent''s comments this week on PBA.com (paraphrasing): "I''m going to retire at the end of the year...I can''t rev it like these power players can and they''re dominating the game."
Obviously, balls/walls have lifted the scoring floor, but the bowlers have much stronger physical games. If the question is accuracy and shotmaking (particularly in regards to makeable splits and combination spares), then the edge goes to the guys of yesteryear. But you take a guy like Belmonte or Robert Smith back to the 50s and watch what would happen. Belmonte has already won on tour throwing plastic (twice if you count the Chris Paul shindig) and Smith was one game away from making the telecast at the Plastic Ball Championship last year. When the shot goes to crap and those guys get to pick up the plastic, they beat folks to pieces.
Jess
Edited on 3/20/2010 11:04 PM
Post by: TamerBowling on March 21, 2010, 10:27:50 AM
Regarding Mike Durbin's comments on Amleto, I fully agree, even in this age of more powerful athletes. That bent elbow, yo-yo type release may impart additional revs for those, it wreaks havoc on the body. Have you seen Amleto this year with the bicep injury??? You don't see Walter Ray with that type of injury. WRWJ doesn't have the "ideal" approach either, but he is obviously not destroying his body.
There are ways that the modern athlete gain leverage and increased revs, but it definitely doesn't need to be that bent elbow, snap release. Look at Michael Fagan. He looks totally effortless.
Another game I am really liking is Bill O'Neill. He gets 400-450 revs and he is stable without looking like he's ripping on the ball.
Look, I grew up when Amleto and the others where our heroes. I developed bad habits in the 80s from this, which I eventually got out of with some coaching and watching myself on video.
Modern-day athletes are stronger today, but there's definitely some help on a THS. The equipment also now helps those who are not the physical specimen or 20 years old.
To the original point of the post regarding equipment, I honestly don't think it's a bad thing. The sport evolves, just like any other. The bar simply has to be reset. Maybe 200 is not par anymore, but 220 is...
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Post by: holland1945 on March 21, 2010, 10:42:33 AM
It's impossible to compare bowlers from 50 years ago in their primes with bowlers today. Both sides of the argument really have merit bowlers in the 50's were certainly better shotmakers on average (only a few like Walter Ray compare in this way), but put a guy with a suitcase release on one of the PBA patterns today and there is no way he carries as well as one of today's top pros. Tiger Woods would still have been a great golfer in the days of Arnie and Jack, but maybe with wood clubs and without his muscles (not a single golfer looked like that then so neither would have Tiger) he might have been an also ran. Stick a modern club and ball in the hands of Jack in his prime and he's still not going to burn one 300+ like Tiger does routinely.
Athletes imitate the state of the art, and art forms around paradigm busting athletes (Roth, Amletto, Woods). Progress is going to happen whether you like it or not.
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Post by: Juggernaut on March 21, 2010, 11:15:31 AM
Lane oils are much better now, as are the oiling machines that put it out there, not to mention the "perfect" surfaces that synthetic lanes offer. Then, you need to take into account the phenolic pindecks and kickbacks that bounce the pins around like never before.
Then, also add in the low weight, void filled, poly coated pins themselves, which were designed to fall over easier.
Now, take into account that the psyche of the modern bowler is infinitly different that his 1950's predecessor. Back then, the game was played by "down&in" players because that's the way it was played, but the modern game has forever been influenced by power players who hook the ball, so every one wants to be able to do that.
Yes, technology has changed bowling, but it wasn't ALL the ball.
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Post by: mainzer on March 21, 2010, 02:24:39 PM
In the Fox Valley area of WI their are a fair number of houses. I love to bowl all kinds of places and challenge myself.
I find the Toughest places to bowl are the older houses that dont have a modern oiler. Shots are tighter, backends are slow, carry is rancid.
I think J w73 might be unto something here.
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Post by: JessN16 on March 21, 2010, 11:52:19 PM
quote:
This is my thought.
In the Fox Valley area of WI their are a fair number of houses. I love to bowl all kinds of places and challenge myself.
I find the Toughest places to bowl are the older houses that dont have a modern oiler. Shots are tighter, backends are slow, carry is rancid.
I think J w73 might be unto something here.
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Paranoia is a very comforting state of mind
If you think they are out to get you,
You think you matter.
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I can give you a great comparison of just that: In 2000, I bowled at Bama Bowl and Leland Lanes in Tuscaloosa, Ala. Both were natural wood houses. The oiler at Bama was a brand-new Phoenix machine and they put down THS. I booked 186.
At Leland, they had a Century wick machine and put down a shot that was 10 units outside the 10s and 20 units between the 10s. I booked 153.
At Leland, we didn't get our first 600 series that year until Week 33 of a 36-week men's league. I'm talking about THE WHOLE LEAGUE. We ended the year with two 600s on the books. Highest average was 185 and the all-men's average was 151.
Same lane surface, approximately same age of house, only difference was the oil patterns and the oil machines.
Jess
Post by: JohnP on March 22, 2010, 11:11:24 AM