BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: cav on March 17, 2013, 01:11:41 PM
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Fellow bowler hit the first 10, fouled the last 2 while striking ( I'm talking about 6-10 inches beyond foul line). Buzzer did not go off, lane manager forgot to turn it on............
Cav
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A foul is a foul whether or not the buzzer worked...
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Judging by the celebration, his fellow bowlers disagree.
Cav
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It all depends. Was John Goodman anywhere to be found?
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Rule 5 – Fouls
5a. Definition
A foul occurs when a part of the player’s body encroaches on or goes beyond the foul line and touches any part of the lane, equipment or building during or after a delivery. A ball is in play after a delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery.
The certification and inspection committee of a local association can require that the foul line be plainly marked on the walls, posts, division boards or any other structure in a bowling center on a line with the regular foul line.
When a foul is recorded the delivery counts, but the player is not credited with any pins knocked down by that delivery. (See Rule 6b.)
NOTE:
The foul line is of infinite length including walls, floors, posts and ball returns. A foul is not committed when foreign objects such as pens, jewelry, coins, cigarettes, etc., drop from a bowler’s pocket or fall from a person’s body or clothing. (Footwear and clothing are considered part of the body.) A player should request permission to cross the foul line to retrieve any items that have fallen beyond the foul line.
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It is not a 300.
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It is not a 300. But i am sure it will be credited to him as a 300 because in todays environment people are afraid to say anything to anyone. If you cross the foul line it is a foul regardless of the sensor being turned on or not.
X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,F,F =270 to me...
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I believe you have to call him on it at the time
might be to late now
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On the Award Application it asks whether or not all rules were observed during the game/set. I guess it brings new meaning to the term "Honor Score" doesn't it?
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i have been fortunate to throw multiple 300's
I would have no problem calling a foul on myself at all.
Only "you" have to look yourself in the mirror everyday.
If that doesn't bother you, then its up to that individual
sad.....
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I can't think of a situation where you would have to ask the question and the answer would be yes...
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For instance, gutter followed by spare and the next 11. Not a 300.
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Well let's put it this way, if he puts in for or takes the ring he is a thief plain and simple, if you take something that does not belong to you that makes you a thief.
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If no one said anything, they are just as guilty as the person who "threw" that 300.
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I am more amazed that someone with the first 10 could then go across the foul line that far not once but twice. That sounds like something a beginner bowler does when open bowling.
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Judging by the celebration, his fellow bowlers disagree.
Cav
There was never a follow-up to this. I take it that if there was in fact a celebration, then neither he nor anyone around him that saw him go that far over the line said a single thing??
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Not a 300 and the guy that shot it should have is USBC card yanked for being dishonest. I also can't believe no one said anything. If I saw that happen, I would say something right away. I don't care if the person had 10 in a row or not.
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Now remember, bowling is just for fun, not everybody has to be serious, some people aren't out for competition . . taking his 300 away just because he broke a rule or two wouldn't help bowling.
*Sarcasm off*
If I'd have posted this someone would have said, "Well, the center should have had the foul lights on, they didn't, he shot a 300, deal with it." THS is bad enough, but when people start ignoring and arguing over the basic rules of the sport, goodbye bowling.
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Judging by the celebration, his fellow bowlers disagree.
Cav
There was never a follow-up to this. I take it that if there was in fact a celebration, then neither he nor anyone around him that saw him go that far over the line said a single thing??
No, nothing was said. I did hear 4 bowlers admit he did indeed cross the line. Now, if you were the only one, would you have said something?
Cav
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Was it in sanctioned competition?
If not then who knows what rules apply. Some like to count their practice 300's.
If it was sanctioned then someone has to call the foul. If not then I guess the scores stands.
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If I witness a foul, I call it on the player.
But I have only had to do this 2 times in 48 years.
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Yes, sanctioned.
When it happened, I was reluctant to say anything through the mass hysteria that ensued..... and would have ensued if I spoke up :o. That being said, I was wrong not to. It was the guys first 300...after bowling 30+ years.
Cav
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I am more amazed that someone with the first 10 could then go across the foul line that far not once but twice. That sounds like something a beginner bowler does when open bowling.
I have seen some pretty ridiculous things happen in that 10th frame. I know I fell over onto the ball return for shot 12 of my first. Nerves are funny things. I once saw another guy lose shot 12 behind him twice before putting it on the lane. And then he pulled it 10 boards.
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Yes, sanctioned.
When it happened, I was reluctant to say anything through the mass hysteria that ensued..... and would have ensued if I spoke up :o. That being said, I was wrong not to. It was the guys first 300...after bowling 30+ years.
Cav
But you should have said something after the 11th. There wouldn't have been any hysteria.
You might have been viewed as a heel. But assuming the others who saw it would have stepped up it would have calmed down. Heck, he might have admitted it when comfronted.
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All I will say is this.
It all boils down to character.
If he knows that he fouled, he should have come up himself and have said that the last two shots should not have counted, because he had fouled. Poor character there.
Second, it isn't the whole fact of 'remember, we are having fun here'. Yes, we are having fun, but the integrity of the game should not be sacrificed for the sake of 'having fun'. As league bowlers, we hold ourselves up to the rules of the game. The moment we don't do that, we not only lose integrity of the game, but what does that also say about we, the bowler?
It comes down to (and this is more of a life lesson than anything) doing what is right, regardless of being portrayed as the bad guy, or feeling like hell about it afterwards. Yes, the guy may feel shattered, but he would know, as well as everyone there, that the right thing was done.
And there would be positives to take out of it. He now knows he can throw 12 in a row, if not more. So he then now knows that he could do it again. And again. And again. But throwing him a bone on one while everyone else has to throw 12 true does not make for anything fair in the game, and calls it into disrepute.
BL.
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All I will say is this.
It all boils down to character.
If he knows that he fouled, he should have come up himself and have said that the last two shots should not have counted, because he had fouled. Poor character there.
Second, it isn't the whole fact of 'remember, we are having fun here'. Yes, we are having fun, but the integrity of the game should not be sacrificed for the sake of 'having fun'. As league bowlers, we hold ourselves up to the rules of the game. The moment we don't do that, we not only lose integrity of the game, but what does that also say about we, the bowler?
It comes down to (and this is more of a life lesson than anything) doing what is right, regardless of being portrayed as the bad guy, or feeling like hell about it afterwards. Yes, the guy may feel shattered, but he would know, as well as everyone there, that the right thing was done.
And there would be positives to take out of it. He now knows he can throw 12 in a row, if not more. So he then now knows that he could do it again. And again. And again. But throwing him a bone on one while everyone else has to throw 12 true does not make for anything fair in the game, and calls it into disrepute.
BL.
Exactly. BUT, the good ol boy finally getting his 300 is a lot better than tragically missing it over some little rule. Bottom line is that it's not just this guy's honesty, it's everyone else's that didn't say anything because they knew they'd get hammered for it. Everytime a rule is brought up, people shoot it down or downplay it unless it's a tournament or a super competitive league.
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All I will say is this.
It all boils down to character.
If he knows that he fouled, he should have come up himself and have said that the last two shots should not have counted, because he had fouled. Poor character there.
Second, it isn't the whole fact of 'remember, we are having fun here'. Yes, we are having fun, but the integrity of the game should not be sacrificed for the sake of 'having fun'. As league bowlers, we hold ourselves up to the rules of the game. The moment we don't do that, we not only lose integrity of the game, but what does that also say about we, the bowler?
It comes down to (and this is more of a life lesson than anything) doing what is right, regardless of being portrayed as the bad guy, or feeling like hell about it afterwards. Yes, the guy may feel shattered, but he would know, as well as everyone there, that the right thing was done.
And there would be positives to take out of it. He now knows he can throw 12 in a row, if not more. So he then now knows that he could do it again. And again. And again. But throwing him a bone on one while everyone else has to throw 12 true does not make for anything fair in the game, and calls it into disrepute.
BL.
Exactly. BUT, the good ol boy finally getting his 300 is a lot better than tragically missing it over some little rule. Bottom line is that it's not just this guy's honesty, it's everyone else's that didn't say anything because they knew they'd get hammered for it. Everytime a rule is brought up, people shoot it down or downplay it unless it's a tournament or a super competitive league.
I agree. It boils down to this.
Say you're in elementary school, and you see your best friend beating up a kid 2 years younger than you.
Having Integrity means that you would tell your friend what he is doing is wrong.
Having Character means that not only would you tell your friend what he is doing is wrong, but jumping in and defending the kid getting beaten up.
In this case, the ones that didn't do what was right had just as much of a problem as those that didn't.
Nevertheless, Definitely not a 300.
BL.
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Sweep it under the rug and treat him as if a special needs bowler had have shot it and fouled.
...just playing devil's advocate
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Judging by the celebration, his fellow bowlers disagree.
Cav
There was never a follow-up to this. I take it that if there was in fact a celebration, then neither he nor anyone around him that saw him go that far over the line said a single thing??
No, nothing was said. I did hear 4 bowlers admit he did indeed cross the line. Now, if you were the only one, would you have said something?
Cav
Since my quote you replied to, yes, I would have admitted it if it were me and I knew I fouled...yes. On flip side, I would also fight it if it were me and lights went off and I didn't foul. I don't slide close to the line at all....am easily a good 6-8 inches away.
Now....if I saw it. I wouldn't have started calming the mass hysteria down to make an announcement....but I would have no problems going to the person saying congrats...and then letting him know that I watched him clearly foul the last 2 shots. I would leave it up to the person to judge him/herself.
Does it make me right or better? No. It becomes a case of he says she says....and no one wins there.
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If this guy was in my Wednesday night league and did this, I gaurantee you this 1 guy would have brought the player in the wrong out in the open with no hesitation. The league is or was a just for fun Goodfellowship league but EVERY TIME there's a rule infraction he pulls out the rule book and then enforces it.
A month ago one of my team mates who averages 135-145 (been bowling for the last 40 years with no improvement). Uses an old Teal Rhino Pro ball and the inserts in it are so old the rubber turned to a super hard brittle material and the glue let go. So he used super glue and 4 pieces of duct tape to hold it in. There was about a quarter inch of tape on the ring finger hole on the ball.
Do you think a 140 average bowler who doesn't care about the rules is going to be any threat that throws the ball at 12 mph with no hook on the ball what-so-ever?? Dude can't even hit the same area from 1 shot to the next!
Yet this 1 rule book junkie decides to break out the book and recite the rule like it's some kind of religious sermon! I see him pulling out this book every single week trying to get every team he bowls on some kind of BS.
Anyway, this double foul should have been called out on the 1st offense. If I personally saw this happen I would have said something to him or his team. I don't care if it's his 1st or his millionth. I've been called for a foul on my 11th shot by well this rule bookkeeper. Just happened to have several others jump in to agree....
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Holy crap! Plain out and out cheating! Epitome of dishonesty and poor sportsmanship. I am deadly serious when I say that anybody who took part in this charade should have their USBC memberships yanked. That includes the gutless ones who saw him foul and didn't say a word.
30+ years of bowling without a 300? Make that 31+. What a bunch of tools.
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Holy crap! Plain out and out cheating! Epitome of dishonesty and poor sportsmanship. I am deadly serious when I say that anybody who took part in this charade should have their USBC memberships yanked. That includes the gutless ones who saw him foul and didn't say a word.
30+ years of bowling without a 300? Make that 31+. What a bunch of tools.
+1
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If this guy was in my Wednesday night league and did this, I gaurantee you this 1 guy would have brought the player in the wrong out in the open with no hesitation. The league is or was a just for fun Goodfellowship league but EVERY TIME there's a rule infraction he pulls out the rule book and then enforces it.
A month ago one of my team mates who averages 135-145 (been bowling for the last 40 years with no improvement). Uses an old Teal Rhino Pro ball and the inserts in it are so old the rubber turned to a super hard brittle material and the glue let go. So he used super glue and 4 pieces of duct tape to hold it in. There was about a quarter inch of tape on the ring finger hole on the ball.
Do you think a 140 average bowler who doesn't care about the rules is going to be any threat that throws the ball at 12 mph with no hook on the ball what-so-ever?? Dude can't even hit the same area from 1 shot to the next!
Yet this 1 rule book junkie decides to break out the book and recite the rule like it's some kind of religious sermon! I see him pulling out this book every single week trying to get every team he bowls on some kind of BS.
Anyway, this double foul should have been called out on the 1st offense. If I personally saw this happen I would have said something to him or his team. I don't care if it's his 1st or his millionth. I've been called for a foul on my 11th shot by well this rule bookkeeper. Just happened to have several others jump in to agree....
Milke I understand this guy being annoying and the circumstance you describe seems to non issue, however, what rules do you enforce and what rules do you let go? I have seen scenarios just like you described happen in leagues I have been in. Leagues can get divided real quick and members drop out. When someone is violation of the rules, no matter how dumb or ridiculous you think it is...tts the USBC governing rules. If you are in a sanction league, you must play by the USBC rules and regulations.
Example: I was a sub on the third or fourth week (it was early in year) in a league (subbed in this league for couple years before). 3rd Game between the teams. Member of the opposite team fouled on her last ball. It was a strike that would have given her team the victory. She throws real fast and was always off balance on her shot. On that shot her foot stepped up on the divide between the lanes and was beyond the foul line. Somehow the foul light picked it up. Automatic score gives her the "F".
Well an argument ensued with the bowling center's front desk. Her team wanted the strike. The league president comes down. I stuck my neck out (apparently I was the only witness), I went up on the approach and put my foot where her's ended up. Well that was the last time I got a call to sub in that league. Apparently me pointing out the truth was none of my business.
Most league's today only think of USBC rule book as "semi" guidelines. When rules come into play and goes against a team, anger kicks in. People start yelling at each other. Instead of "I might not agree with it, but that is the rule."
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I'm a little late to the game on this, but having read it & giving some thought, I have to question it... So what is the real intention of posting this thread...? Is this a "confession" thread? A thread you intend to show the "300" performer? Trying to right the wrong? Just trying to figure the purpose for a thread like this... especially after you admittedly witnessed the infractions & ensuing celebration. I don't get why, I guess.
I think once you folks let the fouls go, then that is when you all decided it's a 300. You can't go talking & backtracking now... It sounds a little like sour grapes. The ole line "or forever your hold your peace" seems to apply... The time to stand up was the time of the 1st infraction, let alone 2nd. The 2nd one you all should have said, okay wait a minute.. 1 slide? But 2?
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I would contact your local association and tell them exactly what happened and the form for the 300 game shot on such and such date at such and such league is fraudulent. People complain that's it's too easy to get a 300 ring and this tool basically negates two thirds or his tenth frame by fouling and claims a ring? Such bullshit.
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You know what. This sport is a joke anymore. No one reads the rules and when most do they interpret them wrong any how. They go into reading the rules with blinders on...they insert or remove words from what is stated so it fits their case. If that doesn't work the next phrase you would hear "WELL...Common Sense tells you.....blah blah".
Go ahead and try to get that 300 game off the books. I guarantee that bowler will fight for it and the USBC will be on his side. Its not worth them getting into a battle over. Why do you think those 900 series in upper New York years back that were first denied, but then considered legit.
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Well, I used to be an officer in various leagues for near twenty years. I would run things over to my local association during driving around in my job. They got to know me over there and I know they would look at it very seriously if I had told them a 300 claim was bogus. That was a long time ago. Might not happen these days. All I know is this; I respect the rules of the sport, I still believe an honor score is an honor score, and everything should be done to respect the sanctity of both. There's no way the secretary of that league should have filled out and signed off on that 280 game as a 300. Complete and total bullshit.
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Hi,
Well, through another bowler, just found out the bowler in question was not awarded a 300. ::)
Cav
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Hi,
Well, through another bowler, just found out the bowler in question was not awarded a 300. ::)
Cav
Justice is done! Strike a blow for the waning respect for the sport of bowling
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thats good cuz if he fouled its a foul and those shots dont count it sucks that it happened then but nothing you van do about it
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I would say its a 300 because nobody said anything..
Most people that foul dont look down when they have just finished the shot...
How do I know - It has happen to me running 7 and I agree because I was alittle close...
Sometime people move around after completing the shot and its hard to tell exactly....
If they oiled the lanes to the foul line like in the past he would show a print or would have fallen...
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I would say its a 300 because nobody said anything..
Most people that foul dont look down when they have just finished the shot...
How do I know - It has happen to me running 7 and I agree because I was alittle close...
Sometime people move around after completing the shot and its hard to tell exactly....
If they oiled the lanes to the foul line like in the past he would show a print or would have fallen...
Are you crazy!? He fouled on two straight shots! If you think that's a 300 you don't know the rules of bowling. But it really doesn't matter what you think, does it? The 300 was denied. As it should have been.
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1st 300 in 30+ years of bowling? I'd gladly look the other way. Nothing wrong with showing someone some compassion.
It's kind of funny to see someone that is all about being liberal take a hard line stance over 6 inches.
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1st 300 in 30+ years of bowling? I'd gladly look the other way. Nothing wrong with showing someone some compassion.
It's kind of funny to see someone that is all about being liberal take a hard line stance over 6 inches.
Ever stop to think that to those of us the have shot the score legally expect all the other scores to be awarded by the bowler following the rules?
Someone being liberal? Are you talking about me? Maybe you can explain who being liberal or conservative or communist has a damn thing with following the rules of the sport. I got my first one after 35 years of bowling. I sure as hell didn't ask anybody to bend the rules for me to do it. Get a clue. Get a backbone. Get some character. Get a sense of honor. You need to. It doesn't appear you have any at all. But like I said, it really doesn't matter what a cheater like you thinks. The award was denied.
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Character is not wanting to deny someone something because of 6 inches. I have several 300s. I don't begrudge anyone getting one, or in this case not getting one. I wouldn't have said a word. It's not life and death, it's a game. It's recreation. Nothing more despite what everyone seems to want to believe it is. I suppose you would tell an umpire in beer league softball that you dropped the ball even though he called the batter out? It's a game. Why you hold a 300 as some sacred event is beyond me. It's not like the guy said "watch this" and proceeded to foul on purpose to make some kind of point. To me it all comes down to that guy...if he thinks he bowled a 300, then I'm not going to tell him he didn't.
You picked a funny place to draw a line on no longer having compassion for another human being. That's all. If you can't see the humor in that, it's you that needs to find a sense of humor.
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Buddy,
You have shown yourself here and in other places to be a tool. Actually, the only reason you came into this thread is to troll when you saw my name.
All you need know is everybody in this thread said it's not a 300, the local association said it's not a 300, and the USBC said it's not a 300. You just chew on that while you attempt to develop some character and a sense of honesty.
I'm not addressing this topic anymore. I'm sure you'll get the last word in, it's what trolls like you do.
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NOT A 300!
I don't care how many anarchistic egalitarians come on here and carp about how we should just turn our heads and let him have it.
He fouled. Doesn't matter if it was six inches or six feet, it was a foul. It the foul line was only meant to be 59 1/2 feet from the pins, then that is what it would be for EVERYONE.
If not, then how far over the line IS ok? Six inches? Sixty inches? Sixty feet? How about if we start to just let people walk down to the pins and knock them over with a broom and call it a strike?
If he hasn't bowled a 300 in over 30 years, then there is a REASON he hasn't, and it is called not being good enough. Not everybody puts enough effort into learning the game and practicing it to become good enough to be able to shoot a 300 game. Are we supposed to start awarding them to everybody that fits that category, just because they've been at it a long time?
I would be standing behind, and rooting for this guy. I would be there hoping against hope that he somehow finds a way to make it. And I would be one of the first to congratulate him on his achievement if he were to make it, but I would ALSO expect him to follow every rule.
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A few years ago we had a similar thing happen...
Foul lights were not on...I do believe if foul lights are not on...Then the two
team captains are responsible for calling fouls...
Now another bowler a FEW lanes over said the bowler on our lane fouled...
However, his 300 game was honored...by the then former ABC...Their ruling
was that it is up to the captains of the two teams to call the foul if foul lights
are now working...
Question...Did the captains of the two teams call or see the foul?
I believe you said the bowler went over the foul line by 6 to 10 inches...twice??
Can't speak for your lanes...But around here if you go over the foul line by that
much, one would need to clean one's shoes before throwing the next ball...
Also, since he was on 10 in a row...Around here most of the house would stop
bowling and be watching...Hard to believe that if most of the house was
watching him throw the last two shots, that no one would be calling such
an obvious foul...6-10 inches...
Second question...Did the bowler deny he fouled? Sounds like he did...
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I'm a little late to the game on this, but having read it & giving some thought, I have to question it... So what is the real intention of posting this thread...? Is this a "confession" thread? A thread you intend to show the "300" performer? Trying to right the wrong? Just trying to figure the purpose for a thread like this... especially after you admittedly witnessed the infractions & ensuing celebration. I don't get why, I guess.
I think once you folks let the fouls go, then that is when you all decided it's a 300. You can't go talking & backtracking now... It sounds a little like sour grapes. The ole line "or forever your hold your peace" seems to apply... The time to stand up was the time of the 1st infraction, let alone 2nd. The 2nd one you all should have said, okay wait a minute.. 1 slide? But 2?
EXACTLY PIKE.... Having watched about a "zillion" 300 games being shot...
"a zillion, that's a lot" I agree...How in the world can someone foul by that much
without causing a major uproar...Like I said...Around here...Most of the house stops
bowling and zooms in on someone going for a 300...
Just hard to believe that with so many people watching, that more people didn't
cry out FOUL...
And then for this to happen a second time....6-10 inches past...
I'm sorry, but that just does not make any sense...
I have seen people cry out foul on a bowler a fraction over the line...
6-10" Can't believe the whole house didn't see that...
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NOT A 300!
I don't care how many anarchistic egalitarians come on here and carp about how we should just turn our heads and let him have it.
He fouled. Doesn't matter if it was six inches or six feet, it was a foul. It the foul line was only meant to be 59 1/2 feet from the pins, then that is what it would be for EVERYONE.
If not, then how far over the line IS ok? Six inches? Sixty inches? Sixty feet? How about if we start to just let people walk down to the pins and knock them over with a broom and call it a strike?
If he hasn't bowled a 300 in over 30 years, then there is a REASON he hasn't, and it is called not being good enough. Not everybody puts enough effort into learning the game and practicing it to become good enough to be able to shoot a 300 game. Are we supposed to start awarding them to everybody that fits that category, just because they've been at it a long time?
I would be standing behind, and rooting for this guy. I would be there hoping against hope that he somehow finds a way to make it. And I would be one of the first to congratulate him on his achievement if he were to make it, but I would ALSO expect him to follow every rule.
Seriously, Juggsy, can you believe some of the excuse makers? Obviously, the sport means absolutely nothing to them.
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It's not a sport, it's recreation.
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I'm not addressing this topic anymore. I'm sure you'll get the last word in, it's what trolls like you do.
Seriously, Juggsy, can you believe some of the excuse makers? Obviously, the sport means absolutely nothing to them.
Nice. You think way too highly of yourself if you think I give a damn what you think about anything.
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NOT A 300!
I don't care how many anarchistic egalitarians come on here and carp about how we should just turn our heads and let him have it.
He fouled. Doesn't matter if it was six inches or six feet, it was a foul. It the foul line was only meant to be 59 1/2 feet from the pins, then that is what it would be for EVERYONE.
If not, then how far over the line IS ok? Six inches? Sixty inches? Sixty feet? How about if we start to just let people walk down to the pins and knock them over with a broom and call it a strike?
If he hasn't bowled a 300 in over 30 years, then there is a REASON he hasn't, and it is called not being good enough. Not everybody puts enough effort into learning the game and practicing it to become good enough to be able to shoot a 300 game. Are we supposed to start awarding them to everybody that fits that category, just because they've been at it a long time?
I would be standing behind, and rooting for this guy. I would be there hoping against hope that he somehow finds a way to make it. And I would be one of the first to congratulate him on his achievement if he were to make it, but I would ALSO expect him to follow every rule.
Seriously, Juggsy, can you believe some of the excuse makers? Obviously, the sport means absolutely nothing to them.
While you and I can have differing viewpoints at times, it appears that this is one of those sticking points that we agree on. Thank you.
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I'm at the Southern Bowling Congress tournament in Chattanooga, TN. We watched the foul light go off on the same guy 10 times yesterday and he swore up and down he didn't cross the line. The buzzer and light would go off but the computer never scored it as a Foul. He was a few lanes down so none of my group could really ever remember to watch if he was actually fouling or not but Odd how no one else had any trouble with it. Im not sure of his average but He shot about 750.
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Pathetic that a tournament director didn't set up a foul line judge. I always defend the integrity of bowling, looks like the integrity of the bowlers is something to be more concerned with.