BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: thegame on January 14, 2017, 01:18:29 PM
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I've been wanting to determine my PAP for a while now, but been too lazy to look up how to do it, and do it myself, but this morning, I got done with practice, and saw the pro shop was open, and thought maybe I could have it done right while I was there. I asked if the pro shop operator would mind doing it real quick, and he said "Oh, I'm sorry, I don't know how to do that." Is that that surprising, or in this day and age do less and less pro shops know some of the more "basic" things of ball drilling?
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that is surprising to me. If you don't know how to find a bowlers PAP, how can you layout the ball for them?
If that has been the pro shop you have been using, might be time to switch
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Knowing how to find a bowler's PAP and what it means is pretty basic stuff. If you're in the pro shop business it's something you'd better learn.
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that is surprising to me. If you don't know how to find a bowlers PAP, how can you layout the ball for them?
If that has been the pro shop you have been using, might be time to switch
that is SHOCKING to me. If you don't know how to find a bowlers PAP, how can you layout the ball for them?
If that has been the pro shop you have been using, might be time to switch
Edited for truth and effect ...
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Is that person just a worker helping out? He can't be the owner/PSO of that shop, there's no way. If he doesn't know how to find a person PAP, he shouldn't be in business. I'd ask him why he's in business and tell him to shut down lol
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The audience of this site is not the average bowler or even league bowler. I would guess that less than 1 in 5 bowler I know have any idea of what a PAP even 8d, matter less what their own is. They either have a couple of layouts they always use or just let their driller give them a drilling of his/her choice.
There a more proshops out there that either don't know or don't care than we probably know as well.
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Or,
a. you're not a regular customer and he didn't want to be bothered to do it.
b. he profiled you as a customer, decided you were probably not buying today so he gave an excuse.
c. honestly doesn't know how to do it, which I seriously doubt.
I can tell you if you randomly walked into my shop and weren't a regular or someone I was "working with", I would charge you to do it or tell you I would do it when you bought a ball.
Just doing it for you would rank right up there with measuring someone's hand and giving them the measurements so they can order and have a ball drilled from the internet.
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Unfortunately it is more common than it should be. There are definitely people in pro shops that don't even know what a PAP is.... or they don't care.. Sad really.
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Give you a bit more info on the conversation, he was on his way out to the lanes to bowl with someone else, but he did take a couple minutes to draw the grip and mid lines on the ball, and said he thought it had something to do with a line tangent to the ball track, and a plastic ball would be a better ball to use to help find it
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Give you a bit more info on the conversation, he was on his way out to the lanes to bowl with someone else, but he did take a couple minutes to draw the grip and mid lines on the ball, and said he thought it had something to do with a line tangent to the ball track, and a plastic ball would be a better ball to use to help find it
Now that makes more sense!!! Chances are if he told you that then he probably knows how to find your PAP. Because the fact that he suggested using a plastic ball to find you precise PAP was completely accurate. He probably didn't have time for one of those can you do me a favor real quick freebies. I buy a lot of balls so I'm in the pro shop often. It's amazing to me to see the same people buy a couple of balls and then expect to get free advice and coaching forever afterwards.
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On a flip note, after studying the technical side of the game and educating myself about PAP, tilt, and dual angle layouts, my game has improved significantly. Before I knew about the PAP I used to buy a ball and struggle trying to learn how to throw it because I was trying throw a ball according to how it was drilled even if it wasn't drilled to support my style of play. Now that I lay my own balls out I have them drilled to the way I throw the ball which means more comfort, more consistency and more confidence in my game. Trying to throw the ball drilled for someone else's style of play was holding me back.
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Ahh, so it's better I leave his shop thinking he's an incompetent ball driller than giving me a "quick freebie"? Firstly, I'll say my impression of him is he's a good guy, and if that was the case, had he offered to find the PAP for a charge, I would have gladly paid it (within reason), as he should be paid for his skill and knowledge. I guess it all comes down to how people relate to customers, and what impression they want to be left with when they leave.
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Ahh, so it's better I leave his shop thinking he's an incompetent ball driller than giving me a "quick freebie"?
anything that is free, but provided by someone incompetent is not worth it. a free ball drilled wrong by an incompetent driller will eventually be thrown out or re-drilled by someone that knows better; and if the issue is FIT, could leave you with an injury.
In todays day and age, knowing how to find a bowlers PAP, and use it for laying out a ball should be a basic function for any pro-shop and PSO. I wouldn't expect every bowler to know this stuff; but once you are taking money to provide a service, then you should know all the basics and intermediate level knowledge.
With him saying he doesn't know how to find PAP, then yes, I would find a new shop. for me, that is unacceptable.
You have to decide for yourself.
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That's sort of what I was getting at in the original post, just wondering if others have seen things that would seem to be basic knowledge for a pro shop that they didnt know. Bottom line, he seems like a nice guy, I didn't feel like I was getting brushed off by him at all, but yeah, I would probably choose a different shop for more technical things.
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Yeah, I would have went into total salesman mode. Offer to find it for $10, or mention it would be included with your next ball purchase for free.
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The audience of this site is not the average bowler or even league bowler. I would guess that less than 1 in 5 bowler I know have any idea of what a PAP even 8d, matter less what their own is. They either have a couple of layouts they always use or just let their driller give them a drilling of his/her choice.
There a more pro shops out there that either don't know or don't care than we probably know as well.
In 1975, I would say, yes, a pro shop does not need to know this.
In 2017, I would say it is impossible to be a responsible, accurate, pro shop with a good reputation and not know it.
It has nothing to do with whether a bowler knows it or not. I would say 95% of people who have bowled once per year have no clue what a PAP is or what it means. Heck, may even 98%.
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Or,
a. you're not a regular customer and he didn't want to be bothered to do it.
b. he profiled you as a customer, decided you were probably not buying today so he gave an excuse.
c. honestly doesn't know how to do it, which I seriously doubt.
It is quite possible that a random employee of a shop, watching the counter, until a driller or some other knowledgeable employee returns, does not know what a PAP is or how to measure it (2 very different things: he may know what it is but not know how to measure it.)
I can tell you if you randomly walked into my shop and weren't a regular or someone I was "working with", I would charge you to do it or tell you I would do it when you bought a ball.
Understandable and reasonable.
Just doing it for you would rank right up there with measuring someone's hand and giving them the measurements so they can order and have a ball drilled from the internet.
You might ask why he wanted to know and you might tell him that: unless you were using it to drill a ball for him to get the proper reaction, you will not measure it. As a bowler, I would not ask that question unless I wanted to know it, during the course of buying a ball from you and having it done correctly.
On the other hand -
If I wanted to know that and asked you , a knowledgeable driller to do that, I would expect to take 30 - 60 minutes of your time to do it right and expect to pay an hour's worth of service - $50 - 75.
But that's me. I know what a driller is and what he works at to learn and to do right. I know it is often a thankless job with the vast majority of people thinking, in ignorance, there is nothing to it. It is part of the disrespect to which most people in this industry in the United States are subject.
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I'm curious if this is the OP's regular pro shop or if they are known by this pro shop operator if they normally use a different.
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With all of the comments, how come no one told him how to find his "positive axis point?
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Not everyone has a Pro-sect and even fewer have an armadillo to do the job, which every pro shop has and should know how to use.
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I'm going to play a little bit of devils advocate here.
First I'm not sure it was ever common. Most proshops I have known over the years were run by a decent bowler, who bought a failed shop, didn't have a real job, and decided they could make money at their hobby.
They start off knowing little about fitting people, ball layouts, and dynamics. Generally they don't survive long.
To the original poster, you list all of these accomplishments in your profile but you did this despite not knowing your PAP. If that is possible is that knowledge that significant?
My experience has been that 80+ percent of bowlers have a PAP within a 1 inch area. Ones who do not fit this generally are extreme low trackers or full rollers.
I haven't study the drilling science much over the last 10 years but at that time the instructors at Brunswick felt that a 1 inch miss of the PAP was not significant to ball reaction.
Maybe with the new asymmetrical cores today that is not longer true.
But everyone is so worried about what ball they are throwing and the layout when fit and technique will override it all.
You can have the best ball and drilling in the world but if the fit is lousy you will bowl poorly with it. If you have lousy technique where you cannot repeat shots the ball will not help.
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My experience has been that 80+ percent of bowlers have a PAP within a 1 inch area. Ones who do not fit this generally are extreme low trackers or full rollers.
I haven't study the drilling science much over the last 10 years but at that time the instructors at Brunswick felt that a 1 inch miss of the PAP was not significant to ball reaction.
Interesting stuff.