BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: xrayjay on January 09, 2015, 07:10:24 PM
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hitting up or "fingering" the ball at release.
In the old days hittig up or lifting up at release point was the norm. But now, many
coaches teach not to do this at release. Rather to let the ball roll off the hand.
But again, there are those who still believe in this method of hitting up.
It's just interesting to know what you guys/gals think.....
To hit up or not to hit up....or do both.....
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With today's environment - reactive covers, slicker oils/conditioners and smoother surfaces - hitting up on the ball creates a rotation that wants to create inconsistency or confusion by how the ball lands.
Creating rotation on the upswing tends to have the bowling ball spinning in the aire...if it lands in the oil/conditioner, it enhances the spin or skid; conversely if the bowling ball lands in the dry/friction, it becomes over reactive or violent...thus you are creating over/under by your release
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With today's environment - reactive covers, slicker oils/conditioners and smoother surfaces - hitting up on the ball creates a rotation that wants to create inconsistency or confusion by how the ball lands.
Creating rotation on the upswing tends to have the bowling ball spinning in the aire...if it lands in the oil/conditioner, it enhances the spin or skid; conversely if the bowling ball lands in the dry/friction, it becomes over reactive or violent...thus you are creating over/under by your release
Then how are WRW and Ryan Shafer so successful?
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WRW plays straighter angles and is actually letting the ball on the downswing and Ryan spins it more than the average pro
So out of all that...to disagree with my analysis you pick 2 out of a 1000...
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As was stated earlier, hitting up creates inconsistency, especially for amateurs. The pros do what they do better than most. Not a good comparison.
Years ago a very respected man in the industry, Rolf Gauger(sp?) also said it's the recipe for leaving the ten pin due to the stronger covers on today's bowling balls.
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It's about how the ball bleeds off energy...one that bleeds slower tend to be more controllable and one that bleeds quicker becomes more inconsistent
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WRW plays straighter angles and is actually letting the ball on the downswing and Ryan spins it more than the average pro
So out of all that...to disagree with my analysis you pick 2 out of a 1000...
Calm down, got damn, no one is disagreeing, just asking a question. You speak in such absolute, blanket statements, when someone (usually me, because people here are a) scared to challenge you or b) kiss your fanny) pulls your card, you get super defensive.
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Ok I'll give ya that
If you look at WRWs years ago, he did hit up more on the balls say in the 90's compared to the 2000's...it was on the bottom of the swing but it does still appear as if he hits up
Ryan has a similarily different motion...even tho he hits up on it, it's at a more downward motion into the lane...he has a more upright swing...and Ryan comes more from the inside of the ball
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Ok I'll give ya that
If you look at WRWs years ago, he did hit up more on the balls say in the 90's compared to the 2000's...it was on the bottom of the swing but it does still appear as if he hits up
Ryan has a similarily different motion...even tho he hits up on it, it's at a more downward motion into the lane...he has a more upright swing...and Ryan comes more from the inside of the ball
So they give the illusion of hitting up on the ball even though they are not? Out of all the professionals when I hear "hitting up on the ball" I think of these two. They have been damn successful doing what they do, but to my untrained/unqualified eye there is a lot of hitting up and push/pull in the swing, yet they are still successful. Your explanation shows me why that is the case now.
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It's like watching something in regular speed vs slow motion...slo mo it and you see the subtleties...they adapted over the years very similar to PDW....
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so hitting the ball is not the norm no more what is??
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^^^^ I think it's dependant on the bowler/generation... Older bowlers may be on the category of hit/lifting up, while younger modern folks the opposite. Im pretty sure there are many old school dudes trying to learn the modern release like myself....some have adapted to the change very well.
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Much of it is dictated by swing plane and angle...today's bowlers tend to have flatter swing plain/angles thus creating a longer smoother 'hit' area where older contemporary type players created a more upright swing plane which enhanced a hitting up motion
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Correct. When I started bowling 50 years ago, we were taught to "hit up" on the ball. We were also taught to keep our spine angles more upright than what you commonly see today. We were also more on the side of the ball, especially at release. By keeping a more upright (spine) angle, we were better able to impart side rotation on the ball. It also tended to keep axis tilt from getting too extreme. If you haven't changed your game from this style, it is still the most effective position in which to release the ball, contrary to what some well intentioned instructors are teaching now. If you are trying to develop the dynamics of the modern (power) release, then more spine tilts (both forward and lateral) are essential.
However, regardless of whether you are an "old school" or contemporary player, both styles will do much better by NOT hitting up on the ball, as JustRico pointed out. I am still old school, but I have a much better release when I concentrate on creating a "flat spot" with my follow-through. Since I am more erect and I am more on the side of the ball, I have to concentrate on using my knees more at release rather than more spine tilt. By releasing the ball lower and flatter to the lane surface,
the ball's energy is not diminished but instead, it is preserved where it is most needed--at the breakpoint.
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Older school players can create a flat spot it's just a smaller window
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Exactly.
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sorry im confused. but im really interested in this topic. I myself am not sure what type of bowler i am now. I know that i get my thumb out first then my fingers last and i do a finger lift wit my fingers. i also do the cock/uncock stuff for sport shots etc. so what would i be considered??? i thought old school way was to throw a hand shake or something like that.
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Best way I can describe is the swing has a V shape when you hit up on it, when you don't the swing is more like a U shape.
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I'd go more extreme than that with a V or U to a side ways J with the long portion the 'follow thru' and not follow up
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The reason hitting up on the ball is not so effective in todays environment is that it causes a trade off between speed and revs unless you are super strong. Lifting and hitting up on the ball creates revs at the expense of ball speed. With so much friction on the lanes down lane, the loss in ball speed is much less effective. By creating rev rate at the bottom without hitting up it is possible to maximize revs and still have good ball speed.
As a classic stroker who posted and hit up on the ball, I was able to increase my rev rate from 225 to 300 without losing ball speed when I finally perfected the so called less is more release that emphasized using the arm swing to create both revs and speed at the bottom.
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well maybe i am imagining this wrong. what do you guys mean by hitting up?? like for example sean rash style, is that not hitting up? his finger is lifting the balls to spin. or is hitting up like cupping the ball then uncupping like yoyo.
Im also confused by the other guy said about swing being a v or u or j. are we talking about bending the elbow now.
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Harry smith....that "J" shape swing....very little flat spot, I think this is a sample of the "v" and/or "J" swings.. Modern is longer flat spot... 12:40 slo mo is great
http://youtu.be/1uWLFEUHl1M
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Ken De Beasto,
A lot of how the shape is created is about the timing of the release. " Hitting up" on the ball simply means that you have learned a "late" release timing, and are imparting the revolutions to the ball AFTER it has reached the bottom of the swing and has started back up.
Ever played any slow pitch softball? Imagine the difference in the pitchers release it would take to go from a high arcing pitch, to literally rolling the ball across the plate. In the high arcing pitch, he would stay with the ball longer, and release it on the upswing, and in the rolling pitch, he would release it sooner, before he got into the upswing.
Back in the day, hitting up on the ball was not such a no-no. Balls weren't nearly as strong, and weren't going to greatly magnify little release inconsistencies the way reactive resin balls can. Back then missing it just a bit, or grabbing a handful, was the difference in a light swisher and a solid flush strike. Now days, it can be the difference between a washout and a runaway Brooklyn shot.
Throwing my old Black Hammer, you could leave a 5-7 or an 8-10 at anytime if you didn't "get all of it" at the bottom of the swing. That is one of the reasons it is hard for us "old school" guys to adjust to the modern release. Everything about it feels "weak and wrong" because that is the way we used to throw "bad" shots and leave unmakeable spares that ruined good games. What is taught today as "good" and acceptable ( such as forward tilt or dropping your shoulder) was drilled into us as "bad" and un-acceptable, because it created "weak" shots back then. With those older balls, you needed all the leverage you could get.
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Great explanation Jugger
Also part of releases are dictated by the environmental influences-rubber, plastic and urethane all bled energy differently as well as the surfaces were 'softer' so a later response release or delaying the bleed...
In the older environments, as was stated, you needed to manipulate the bowling ball to react more pronounced down the lane to create hitting power, thus the more upright release motion...
Today because the environment dictates a more steeped condition or a harder, slicker surface at times and cleaner cover type bowling balls, rolling the ball off your hand similar to landing an airplane creates a smoother front to back (foul line to pin deck) reaction or response...and more controllable
Pre-resin era acceleration on the upswing or in front of the bowler...now a days, the acceleration is before the ankle but with a softer hand
Also as stated previously, hand positions have changed at release...because of the equipment characteristics, being more on the side of the ball or with the hand on the outside at release to enhance the side angle rotation
With today's environment, in creating reaction with a softer hand, the emphasis is having the hand more on the inside of the ball with a stronger wrist position and uncoiling it thru out the bottom of the swing, similar to rolling the soft ball and letting the hand rotate around the bowling ball's equator while still lifting up
Instead of the fingers impacting the release at a quicker singular instance it's now more of a longer fluid impact combined with the wrist position
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Good explanations Jugger & Rico. Many "old-schoolers" were never able to make this
important transition in release styles, including some HOF PBA members. I was fortunate enough to have taken several lessons in years past with John Jowdy and Bill Hall. Both were very big on the importance of creating that flat spot at release.
Just Rico calls it the "j" . Bill Hall similarly categorized it as a "long-shank fishhook"
shape, with the shank parallel to the lane surface. What was especially interesting was Jowdy's comment to me that he always taught this type of release, even in the pre-resin days. He said that in those days, bowlers indeed, had to provide extra "hit" at the release but he felt that in those days, the "hitting" motion was more effective
when it was directed parallel to the lane surface. He said Earl Anthony always liked to imagine that his hand was "goosing" the ball all the way down the lane, chasing
it with his hand.
In addition, Bill Hall believes that by creating that flat spot with the hand, you allow
your thumb more time to efficiently exit the ball and allow the fingers to impart
maximum rotation. In contrast, with the "v" shape release, the thumb has to
exit right at the bottom of the "v" to produce similar results---not much margin for error.
I used to really hit up on the ball and I had major problems making the transition.
Bill used to tell me to, "be soft, create that little flat spot at release and get out of the ball's way!" It really does work.
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Many of us have taught this for years....and as Asher once told me - if you wanna visualize the flat spot, possibly one if the best olde timers was Don Carter
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True. Asher did it very well, too.
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Asher 'does' a lot of things right (:
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Ok once again sorry imma rookie still trying picture this. So the old school way is to finger lift the ball with a late release thus causing something like lofting??? or am i picturing it wrong still. still not sure what you guys mean by j, v swings looks like a swing to me back n forth haha.
vid of me bowling a while back not sure if imma oldschool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnosNPt-kt0
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Ok once again sorry imma rookie still trying picture this. So the old school way is to finger lift the ball with a late release thus causing something like lofting??? or am i picturing it wrong still. still not sure what you guys mean by j, v swings looks like a swing to me back n forth haha.
vid of me bowling a while back not sure if imma oldschool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnosNPt-kt0
White line is your arm swing if you don’t create a flat spot at the bottom (the old school following through toward the ceiling). Do it and you'll most likely will be hitting up on the ball.
Black line is creating the flat spot (following through toward the pins), This does not mean to cut your follow-through off abruptly, just don’t jerk up with it as the ball leaves the hand.
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bowl4fun.com%2Fron%2Ftip29_files%2Fflat-spot-b.gif&hash=e8785805c7fdc76619be8b64e4fe36dd5f9ff00a)
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ohhhhh so how do i know if i have a flat spot?
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White line is your arm swing if you don’t create a flat spot at the bottom (the old school following through toward the ceiling). Do it and you'll most likely will be hitting up on the ball.
Black line is creating the flat spot (following through toward the pins), This does not mean to cut your follow-through off abruptly, just don’t jerk up with it as the ball leaves the hand.
A great thread guys :) a question about the example: "Black line is creating the flat spot" to have this outcome (flat spot) do you then release the ball just a second later??? and in doing this does it make a bowler lean forward to much??
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It has more to do with the wrist and hand position...that facilitates a flatter spot
In the past the hand was more on the side of the ball and stayed more cupped, now the hand is more on the inside, on the base of the index finger with a stronger wrist...as the wrist uncoils the hand/palm rotates around the equator...
It tends to lower the PAP, creatinh rotation and tilt
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Thanks, JustRico!
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Bill Hall is spot on. By imparting revs on a flat plane rather than on the up swing you aren't fighting gravity, and you have more acceleration in your release which gives you more revs. Much more efficient, and it would have been very effective in any era I bowled, but we didn't understand it back then.
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I can now understand a little more of what y'all talking bout. But when I try imagine the so call flat spot I can only see the only way is to get lower and throw. Or throwing a yo yo I suppose.
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When I was working with Hall, I concentrated on 4 things. 1. Keep the swing as loose and as gravity-driven as possible 2. Concentrate on getting my bowling hand below knee level at release 3. Keep grip pressure to a minimum 4. Release the ball with my fingers directed no higher than the pins. After many practice sessions, I was able to
"program" my muscle memory so that after a while, it became automatic. Well, not quite, but close. There are still times when I will occasionally revert to hitting up on the ball, or I will try to add muscle into my swing and the results will show in decreased ball action, flat 10's, etc. Old habits do die hard but the more you practice it, the easier it is to do. The difference is worth the effort.
As a postscript, Hall said that when you deploy a gravity driven swing, the weight of the ball gets transferred to the legs, where most of you power should come from.. For me, it
helped me to get lower without having to really think about it. I never knew I had
muscles in my legs--lol. I had been using muscles in my upper body to carry and steer the ball instead of letting gravity do most of the work.
Best of luck!!
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4. Release the ball with my fingers directed no higher than the pins.
What does that mean exactly?
After the release your fingers should not be aimed/pointed in a direction above the tops of the pins? Or are you saying the hand should not follow through higher than the pin tops?
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The follow thru is merely an extension from the acceleration thru the bottom of the swing and has little to no effect on reaction as long as it's not a creation of pulling up at the release and having an upward hitting action
There are many players who have a distinct & long flat area in the release area and the follow thru ends up above their heads
The desire is for the bowling ball to be released by the time the follow may arc upward
A better thought is previously the desired release area was at the ankle and forward & upward..now that window or area is behind the ankle
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When I was working with Hall, I concentrated on 4 things. 1. Keep the swing as loose and as gravity-driven as possible 2. Concentrate on getting my bowling hand below knee level at release 3. Keep grip pressure to a minimum 4. Release the ball with my fingers directed no higher than the pins. After many practice sessions, I was able to
"program" my muscle memory so that after a while, it became automatic. Well, not quite, but close. There are still times when I will occasionally revert to hitting up on the ball, or I will try to add muscle into my swing and the results will show in decreased ball action, flat 10's, etc. Old habits do die hard but the more you practice it, the easier it is to do. The difference is worth the effort.
As a postscript, Hall said that when you deploy a gravity driven swing, the weight of the ball gets transferred to the legs, where most of you power should come from.. For me, it
helped me to get lower without having to really think about it. I never knew I had
muscles in my legs--lol. I had been using muscles in my upper body to carry and steer the ball instead of letting gravity do most of the work.
Best of luck!!
Great response. I worked with Mike at the USBC Open Championships and he stated how important it was to take the muscle out of the swing, something I struggle with. Is there any advice or thoughts anyone might have as to the best way to practice "taking muscle out of the swing"?
You mentioned it has a lot to do with the legs. I feel as though I use my legs a lot in my game, however, my head has a tendency to jump up through the follow through, a tell-tell sign that there was muscle involved. Also, my hand tends to rotate a split second too early, another sign of muscle.
I have been working on this for months and my own video analysis does not seem to show any improvement. Thus, any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.
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When I was working with Hall, I concentrated on 4 things. 1. Keep the swing as loose and as gravity-driven as possible 2. Concentrate on getting my bowling hand below knee level at release 3. Keep grip pressure to a minimum 4. Release the ball with my fingers directed no higher than the pins. After many practice sessions, I was able to
"program" my muscle memory so that after a while, it became automatic. Well, not quite, but close. There are still times when I will occasionally revert to hitting up on the ball, or I will try to add muscle into my swing and the results will show in decreased ball action, flat 10's, etc. Old habits do die hard but the more you practice it, the easier it is to do. The difference is worth the effort.
As a postscript, Hall said that when you deploy a gravity driven swing, the weight of the ball gets transferred to the legs, where most of you power should come from.. For me, it
helped me to get lower without having to really think about it. I never knew I had
muscles in my legs--lol. I had been using muscles in my upper body to carry and steer the ball instead of letting gravity do most of the work.
Best of luck!!
Great response. I worked with Mike at the USBC Open Championships and he stated how important it was to take the muscle out of the swing, something I struggle with. Is there any advice or thoughts anyone might have as to the best way to practice "taking muscle out of the swing"?
You mentioned it has a lot to do with the legs. I feel as though I use my legs a lot in my game, however, my head has a tendency to jump up through the follow through, a tell-tell sign that there was muscle involved. Also, my hand tends to rotate a split second too early, another sign of muscle.
I have been working on this for months and my own video analysis does not seem to show any improvement. Thus, any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Can you post a video on the video forum and someone here will chime in....
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Hello MTBowler:
For me, the keys for developing a gravity-driven swing rests on the following:
1. The grip
It is very difficult to have a free swing unless you feel secure with your grip.
My thumb pitches and span had to be modified to allow me to swing the
ball with minimal grip pressure. Too much "squeeze" causes the muscles
in your bowling arm to tighten, hindering a free flowing swing. Even with
the proper pitches and span, it is necessary for me to use bowlers tape
at times to accommodate changes in thumb size. A proper fit is important
whether your are an old school stroker (like myself) or you are a contemporary
power player, although it is more important for strokers, who are more on the side
of the ball and for those who utilize "early turn". The amount of thumb bevel also plays
a big role. Too much bevel will cause the ball to fall off the hand too early. The
amount of bevel, pitches and span will differ from bowler to bowler of course.
2. Stance:
Developing a free swing starts here for me. I always make sure to place
the weight of the ball in my opposite hand (left hand) in the stance. I want
the muscles in my bowling (right arm) to be free of any tension.
3. Pushaway
On my pushaway step, I "push" the ball outward with my left hand. My bowling
arm simply goes for the ride. There is no "push" with my bowling arm.
4. Backswing
As I begin the ball's descent into the backswing, I concentrate on keeping
the muscles in my bowling shoulder completely relaxed while maintaining
minimal grip pressure with the ball. In my opinion, this is the point in the
approach where it is most easiest to deploy unwanted grip pressure. This
is another reason why a proper ball fit is important. From this point until
the point of release, I want to keep my bowling shoulder as relaxed as
possible.
5. Downswing and Release
As I begin my slide, I focus on just letting the ball descend up to the release point
on its own---by gravity. This is critical, and this is also the point where a lot
of bowlers will try to "rush" the delivery by using muscle to pull the ball down
from the top of the backswing. Again, this is important especially for those
bowlers who "stroke" the ball and who tend to be on the side of the ball.
Power players usually have a little more leeway and can often get by with
early (downswing) acceleration but even for them, letting gravity do the work
is usually the best way to repeat good shots.
6. Release
Once the ball has descended to the point just before my slide ankle, the thumb
exits the ball. If you have a proper ball fit and if you do not accelerate the ball
on the downswing, the thumb will more readily come out of the ball on its own.
At the point where my thumb exits the ball, I will lightly accelerate the ball with my
fingers directed towards the breakpoint My follow through actually ends up being
higher simply due to the natural momentum created by the gravity-driven
downswing and the light hand acceleration at release.
You also mentioned your head movement and that you prematurely turn the ball.
Without actually seeing you bowl, there can be many reasons for these things to occur. Excessive head movement can be the result of your step gait. Taking too
large of steps can cause excessive head movement. Excessively varying your forward and lateral spine tilts can also be a cause. Too big of a pushaway (or too little) can be another reason for excessive head movement. Many times it is caused by
the bowler "leading the ball" in a downward motion with their shoulders as
the ball is descending into the backswing (the step following the pushaway step) .
If you use a traditional pushaway as I do, it is imperative that as you begin your
swing, the shoulders should not drop forward as the ball descends towards the floor.
As you proceed past this point, your shoulders will (or should) naturally tilt more.
This is not as critical for those who use a hinge-type of release, who often tilt
forward at this point in order to generate a backswing by actually using some muscle to "pull" the ball up .
As for your early turn, this too can be the result of many things too numerous to mention. It can be caused by rolling the elbow out, trying to "work" the ball in order
to create a desired motion, improper foot-to-swing alignment, bad fit, etc etc.
You are on the right rack in trying to find constructive ways to improve your game.
My suggestion is to try and locate a competent instructor in your area to have look
at your game. Even if you cannot find one in your immediate are and you have to
travel to see one, it can be worth its weight in gold.
My very best wishes to you!
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Hi Bergman,
Thank you for the post. It was very intuitive and detailed. I appreciate your advice and will use these thoughts to help take the muscle out of the swing.
I am also going to use some 1 & 3 step drills to eliminate the approach and just focus on the swing. I think these drills will help.
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The 4 points Bergman got from Bill Hall are absolutely as good as it gets.