BallReviews

General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Pinbuster on February 14, 2021, 10:05:31 AM

Title: League Decorum
Post by: Pinbuster on February 14, 2021, 10:05:31 AM
I bowl in a higher dollar handicap league. League fees are $20 a week and sponsors add $5000 to the league prize fund.

The league was initially founded as a better bowler league as an alternative to scratch leagues with almost all the participants higher average (190+) bowlers. Handicap was individual and set at 80% of 230. The format is 5 person teams bowling for Peterson and team points. In order to attract more bowlers over time time the handicap has been raised to 90%.

About 15 years ago the scratch league we were in folded and this was the best alternative we found. When we joined there were about 14 teams and the number fluctuated over time reaching a high of 16 teams.

About 4 years ago the league had a secretary that made off with over Ĺ the prize fund. There was some guilt with the house and the house eventually made good on the prize fund but we lost several teams over that incident and the league has been 9 to 10 teams since then.

There is a team in the league that has been what I would call loud and obnoxious over the years. The last couple of years and this year in particular has been worse (or possibly in our old age we are less tolerant).

If a teammate of theirs does something good or bad they have cheers they yell out at the top of their lungs. If someone on a pair of lanes close to them leaves a five pin they gather on the approach around them giggling and telling them if they miss they are all owed drinks. They are also smokers and sometimes they will all disappear for 10 minutes between games.

Last week there were several instances of them getting loud and bowlers having to step off approaches around them. Finally a bowler (from another pair) went to them and said they needed to quiet down. Of course this didnít go over well. One of their bowlers then accused the complaining bowler of messing up his game because he was upset. Things got tense.

This was the end of the night and we were leaving so I donít know how this was eventually settled if at all.

In a perfect world I feel the establishment should be handling this but they donít want to offend anyone and particuarly not in this covid year.

Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: SG17 on February 14, 2021, 10:27:52 AM
some, perhaps many will not agree with me; but people that loudly celebrate every spare or strike like they just shot a 300 game are not people I want to be around while bowling and I would probably quit the league.  everyone should be respectful to the others around them

The center will not deal with them until their behavior hits them in the pocket book.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Tommy32 on February 14, 2021, 12:09:59 PM
I don't know if this will work for you, however, we had the same problem a few years ago in a 12 team league.  Eleven of the teams had a problem with this one team.  We created an "invitation" league and did not invite the problem team. Even with COVID the league has grown to 20 teams.  Three of the members of the "problem team" are on other teams in the league.  They have not been a problem and all 3 have admitted their behavior was a problem.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: northface28 on February 14, 2021, 01:47:54 PM
Iíd quit on the spot. One thing I donít have patience for is people holding the pair hostage to go smoke.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: bradl on February 14, 2021, 03:11:31 PM

Leaving for 10 minutes at a time? Time to hit up the league, house, and USBC rules, and play hardball with the brass of the league.

If the rule in the book states that if the bowler is not present when it is their turn that they get 0 for the frame, I'd bring a copy of the rules with you, get either the leave president, vice president, or sergeant at arms and tell them to get their happy asses back in and bowl. If they don't, that is considered time wasting, and they all get zero. If they get pissy about it, bring up that it is the rules that they agreed to and if they don't like it, they either should have voted to change the rule or not join the league. You are only doing your part to maintain integrity of the game, no matter how much of a rule shark they may think you are.

And if they try to give you shade about that, complain back to the brass of the league saying that you are being intimidated by that team. The brass there are supposed to be working for you and for the league, not just handle prize funds and let everyone do whatever they want.

If they start to throw a fit, tell them that the soccer field is three blocks down the road. This is bowling, not soccer.

BL.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: jimjames on February 14, 2021, 06:04:03 PM

Leaving for 10 minutes at a time? Time to hit up the league, house, and USBC rules, and play hardball with the brass of the league.

If the rule in the book states that if the bowler is not present when it is their turn that they get 0 for the frame, I'd bring a copy of the rules with you, get either the leave president, vice president, or sergeant at arms and tell them to get their happy asses back in and bowl. If they don't, that is considered time wasting, and they all get zero. If they get pissy about it, bring up that it is the rules that they agreed to and if they don't like it, they either should have voted to change the rule or not join the league. You are only doing your part to maintain integrity of the game, no matter how much of a rule shark they may think you are.

And if they try to give you shade about that, complain back to the brass of the league saying that you are being intimidated by that team. The brass there are supposed to be working for you and for the league, not just handle prize funds and let everyone do whatever they want.

If they start to throw a fit, tell them that the soccer field is three blocks down the road. This is bowling, not soccer.

BL.

And upon leaving the alley after league is over, don't leave alone. Be aware of your surroundings. Sounds like someone has attitude and might be looking for trouble I'd guess by their antics inside the lanes. Wondering it your alleys have working security cameras in the parking lots with signage for all to see?
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Bowler19525 on February 15, 2021, 07:45:24 AM
As far as the smoking thing is concerned, leaving for 10 minutes to smoke is simply disrespectful.  You should go to the league President and then invoke Rule 11 whenever that happens:

Rule 11 Ė Forfeit - Delay of Game - No unreasonable delay in the progress of any game is permitted. If a player or team in a league or tournament refuses to proceed with a game after being directed to do so by a league or tournament official, the game or series shall be declared forfeited.

After being forced to forfeit a few games, they will learn that their rude behavior will not be tolerated and they will either quit or shape up.

With regards to the loud yelling and taunting of other bowlers, rule 115a should immediately be invoked.

115a. Dismissal of a League Officer or Player - A league member can file a written charge asking for removal of a league officer or dismissal of a player.  1.   A player may be dismissed from the league or an officer removed from league office only for any of the following reasons:  a. Conduct derogatory to the best interest of the league.

The bowling center should also be involved in any actions taken.  It needs to be a coordinated effort since it not only affects the league, the center is potentially losing business as a result of that team's behavior.  If there is any concern that the offending bowlers are a threat to the safety of anyone on the league or the bowling center, or will retaliate if confronted, I am sure the local police would be more than happy to send over a unit to assist in making sure they leave quietly.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: ksucat on February 15, 2021, 12:23:18 PM
I remember some rowdiness at Rose Bowl East, but when Rick told people to settle down, that seemed like the end of it.  Always handled professionally.  Apparently people used to understand when someone told you that you were acting like an assclown that it was time to stop that. 

My only suggestion for this team is to have league meeting before the drinking gets real bad because I'm assuming this is a heavy drinking crew. 
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Pinbuster on February 15, 2021, 12:49:01 PM
My guts tell me there will be a team captains meeting this week before bowling starts but only time will tell.

When the 10 minute smoke break happened I know the league secretary and others looked up the delay in play rule and there was talk of warning the team that if they had another long delay like that they were in jeopardy of forfeiting the game.

One bowler had given his 2 week termination notice last week before the incident and citing the loud team as his reason for quitting.

ksucat -  It was Rick that went over and told them to quiet down. I can't say about the other teammates on the offending team but there was one that was visibly upset and he is not usually one of the really loud ones. His guilt is mostly by association with his team. 
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Bowler19525 on February 15, 2021, 12:52:15 PM
There have been various occasions in our house where league officers have had to step in and address various issues whether related to rules or behavior. 

Unfortunately, the response to behavioral issues is for the offenders to become even worse.  If the issue is taking too long to bowl, they purposely take even longer.  If the issue is being too loud and obnoxious, they become even louder.  If the issue is excessive foul language or verbal abuse, they get louder and more abusive.  Even trying to enforce simple playing rules has resulted in threats of fights in the parking lot and loud, crude arguments in the settee area.  The more I see it happen, the more I understand the reluctance of league officers to get involved.  You ask them to address issues, and they hem and haw about it and take a wait and see approach.  Then nothing ever gets addressed.

The center tries not to get involved because they don't want to lose customers.  There have only been 3 or 4 times in the past 25 years where the center has flat out banned bowlers from the center, and there have been way more cases where it should have happened.

With no one wanting to enforce anything, the bowlers who respect others and follow the rules feel like the only recourse is to quit.  The only way to escape it is to quit the league and find another one as that seems to be the path of least resistance.  It takes forever for the local association to rule on disputes and protests, so people have pretty much given up on that path as well.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Pinbuster on February 15, 2021, 01:01:42 PM
The league secretary who took the funds has been banned from USBC membership until they pay restitution.

I guess I error on not being an old fuddy dud but it has started to get out of hand. I think they will try and conform till the end of the year and may leave the league at that time. I really don't think it will escalate.

I don't want to squash their fun, I enjoy seeing people having a good time while bowling, but you shouldn't be bothering play around you.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: jimjames on February 15, 2021, 02:29:02 PM
Every league that I've been involved in has had a "Sergeant of Arms" put into office. Wondering if one is in this league mentioned here? Sounds like this leagues officers don't want to deal with this intrusion made by said offending team. That's sad, but have been there, seen that in the past.  ::)
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: bradl on February 15, 2021, 04:04:16 PM
The league secretary who took the funds has been banned from USBC membership until they pay restitution.

I guess I error on not being an old fuddy dud but it has started to get out of hand. I think they will try and conform till the end of the year and may leave the league at that time. I really don't think it will escalate.

I don't want to squash their fun, I enjoy seeing people having a good time while bowling, but you shouldn't be bothering play around you.

You're not being old about this at all. If you were, you wouldn't have brought it up, as it really does concern you.

But I also chalk it down to this point: their version of having a good time ends where your version of having a good time begins. Each person in that league has to be respectful of others not just on the lanes, but throughout the entire time for the duration of the league. Once that respect goes out the door, it is up to those running the league to step in and restore that decorum and respect. This team has lost that, and needs a reminder that their actions in the league affect others in the league. They agreed to abide by the same rules as everyone else, and if they can't, the president, vice-president, sergeant at arms, and treasurer are there to make sure that they do.

Now, if those in office in the league don't want to do anything about it, that is another story. Then your next course of action would be the house, as they would have a say in what is going on as well. Like it was said before, they don't want to lose customers either, and the way it is going (again, assuming that the league officers don't do anything), they would lose customers either way. So it is coming out of their pocket book one way or another. That damages the league and the alley, and that hurts their bottom line.

If it helps, the next time you bowl in that league, see if the team they are bowling against are just as upset with this crew's actions. If they are, have them (or at least their team captain) tell the league officers what is going on, especially with their leaving for 10 minutes at a time for their smoke break. I bet anything that there is a trend for them being one of the last teams to finish for the night (assuming there are an even number of teams in the league). If so, that would be the cause for it. Have the captain inform the league officers and request their forfeit of that game. If you are bowing them, then have your captain do the same. If that team complains about it, just remind them that you didn't write the rules, but only read them.

I know I'm sounding a bit cruel here, but if we're talking respect and decorum, no-one should trample on what should be respectfully entitled to you because of what they think their version of "fun" and "having a good time" should be.

BL.

BL.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: ccrider on February 16, 2021, 11:00:28 PM
Itís one thing to play around with your teammates. Itís different when you start screwing around with people not in your team. Someone should address this to the league president of sergeant in arms  and Insist that they do their job and real the rowdy team in.

As for the cigarette break, it happens in our menís league but no one gets bent out of shape. We are laid back and try to work with each other for the most part. We wait if someone is running late and do not complain if guys go out to smoke as long as they donít abuse it.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Bowler19525 on February 17, 2021, 07:54:38 AM
The cigarette/vape break and bar run thing has become an issue at our center as well.  It can easily add 20 minutes to the amount of time needed to bowl.  10 minutes after game 1, then another 10 minutes after game 2.  Some smokers will run outside and smoke for 2-3 minutes and come right back in time for their turn which is fine.  But a 10 minute break is just disrespectful to the other team.  The bowling center also puts in the league rules what time they expect the league to complete bowling, and it throws off their 3rd shift and late night business plans when teams go 20-30 minutes over the allotted time.

We have established rules with respect to how late someone can be, and we hold to it even if they arrive one frame after the limit.  Again, this is to prevent a situation where all the bowlers on the pair have to sit and wait for a late bowler to catch up. 

I am sure it all sounds a bit harsh and regimented, but it keeps everyone in line and sets the expectations of the bowlers.  We all still have a ton of fun, but know what the limits are and what is considered over the line.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: jimjames on February 17, 2021, 05:42:08 PM
A little ditty of years past...  :D www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_-vNtWLLs
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Pinbuster on February 19, 2021, 07:30:56 AM
Well one week later.

We happened to bowl the team in question last night.

There was no league meeting. League officers had some discussion with them last week and are waiting to see how it plays out.

Things were quieter, not totally calm, but much of the loudest yelling was not present and tolerable. There was some of what I felt was mocking of the league when their bowler would come off the approach with a a finger to their mouth telling their team to hush.

I also felt like we got slow played some. The whole team wouldn't disappear but a member or two. And they drug their feet at times getting up for their turn. The net result was it took us nearly 3 hours to  bowl with no one on the pairs next to us. Both teams shot around 3200 scratch so there were lots of strikes thrown.

We are down to the last 8 weeks of the season so I'm guessing we will have to wait for the end of the year meeting for any resolution, if then.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Bowler19525 on February 19, 2021, 07:39:51 AM
Well one week later.

We happened to bowl the team in question last night.

There was no league meeting. League officers had some discussion with them last week and are waiting to see how it plays out.

Things were quieter, not totally calm, but much of the loudest yelling was not present and tolerable. There was some of what I felt was mocking of the league when their bowler would come off the approach with a a finger to their mouth telling their team to hush.

I also felt like we got slow played some. The whole team wouldn't disappear but a member or two. And they drug their feet at times getting up for their turn. The net result was it took us nearly 3 hours to  bowl with no one on the pairs next to us. Both teams shot around 3200 scratch so there were lots of strikes thrown.

We are down to the last 8 weeks of the season so I'm guessing we will have to wait for the end of the year meeting for any resolution, if then.

Pretty much sounds like what happens around here.

It is a shame that this type of thing is even an issue on adult leagues.  The biggest argument that is heard at our center from bowlers that act like this is "I am paying to be here, and am just having fun.  It is a free country and I will do what I want.  You can't tell me what to do or how to act."  That is usually followed up with some colorful language.

Perhaps the team will disband or something at the end of the season and it will no longer be an issue for your league.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: mainzer on February 21, 2021, 12:50:24 PM
I have no issue with yelling because the team I bowl on is a loud team and when someone complains we get louder. It is league bowling and it isn't the PBA League after all have some fun.

I would have a issue with a bunch of them jumping up on the approach however that is inexcusable.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Good Times Good Times on February 21, 2021, 05:25:47 PM
Can’t miss out on those cigs.....I mean after all just that sweet sweet scent and there is no way those don’t taste awesome.  Look at any ash try and tell me that isn’t tasty......

It is all of you who don’t get it and quite frankly are missing out.  Of course it’s worth holding up the proceedings for.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: svengali on February 22, 2021, 03:42:31 AM
If only it was just cigs. There's guys in my league that come back smelling like the art teacher's office.
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Bowler19525 on February 22, 2021, 12:40:35 PM
If only it was just cigs. There's guys in my league that come back smelling like the art teacher's office.

:o
Title: Re: League Decorum
Post by: Good Times Good Times on February 22, 2021, 03:43:57 PM
The weed I can understand stepping out and getting a quick blast........but prolonged break nah.

Cigs are just stupid with no ROI...