General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: thirtyclean on January 12, 2012, 12:19:53 AM
Title: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: thirtyclean on January 12, 2012, 12:19:53 AM
Was bowling in league last night and a guy shot 300 against us with a Storm Frantic. Being a ball driller for over 10 years, I always like looking at the rack and seing the different drillings, especially when I like the way the ball is rolling for a bowler. I looked at the drilling, and the CG was maybe a 1/2 inch away from the bowlers ring finger (RH) and the pin was maybe 2 inches above the ring, and the weight hole was basically pushing that CG I believe in to it being illegal. Now, I understand there is mislabeling and very low top weights on some balls. Have any of you ball drillers ever called out a bowler in league or questioned a drilling in league play. Does anyone even care unless something is noticed. Another question, can you question or call out a bowler in league competition. Is it even worth the trouble. I know CG is not supposed to matter as much, but unless you are in a tournament, balls are not checked for leaglity anymore. I mentioned it to the league secretary, he kind of chuckled, but nothing came of it. I was wondering if anyone ever ran into a similar situation.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: storm making it rain on January 12, 2012, 08:39:52 AM
Tough to tell really, i've seen some balls that just by looks could possibly be "illegal" but there's also too many variables to know without putting it on a scale. just from your example (without seeing the ball in person) maybe the ring finger was drilled alot deeper or the CG was possibly mismarked.
Drilling my own equipment I personally make sure they are "legal", but the only other time they would get weighed out is at nationals every year. I had a buddy of mine throwing a Cell and the CG was kicked out like 2.5" and turned out being perfectly fine after i put it on the scale.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: thirtyclean on January 12, 2012, 08:47:05 AM
I checked the rule, and if the bowler did not have prior knowledge of the ball being illegal, it wuld just have to be fixed before able to be used again in competition, but know action would be taken for scores already bowled with the ball.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: on January 12, 2012, 08:48:47 AM
Assuming it WAS illegal, I still don't think it's worth worrying about. The effect on the overall ball motion was probably so small that I tend to believe that the bowler and the ball were just matching up well. Maybe the finger holes were deep enough to keep it within legal limits...
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Allstar Lanes
Brunswick Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on January 12, 2012, 10:06:03 AM
Finger hole depth is key here. People assume now a days that any ball with the CG to the right hand side (RH bowler) means the ball needs a weight hole. Many people do not like weight holes so you can just drill the finger holes deeper. This can also be a ball reaction trick as well, as some people like ball reactions without the holes, or want to use the hole later to change the ball reaction. Also the starting weights of the ball might allow the ball to be drilled with the CG way out without a hole as well. There are a few variables here.
You see and hear this from time to time, they only way your going to know is if you weigh out the ball.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: buried7pin on January 12, 2012, 10:28:54 AM
It's like calling out a sandbagger, its nearly impossible to prove and you look like an idiot if you call some one out about it.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: strikeking on January 12, 2012, 11:53:03 AM
Years ago I bowled against a "back-up" ball bowler who was throwing what I thought had to be illegal because of the lay-out and the action that he was getting with the ball. I ran my own pro shop and know something about what should be legal. I had him take the ball to the in-house pro shop and from then on it was a farce. I soon realized that the operator of the shop was the one who had drilled the ball. Needless to say, but that ball never did get checked. Now I think it's best to just say nothing. If someone is cheating it's not worth the effort to call him out and cause ill feelings. HE knows he's cheating!!! Same goes for "sandbagging.
Strikeking
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: kidlost2000 on January 12, 2012, 12:14:52 PM
Many of USBC rules are a joke. If someone is correct in what they posted about the USBC rules which does sound correct, basically USBC doesn't care about taking scores away.
The only place a ball is checked for legal static weights is PBA events and USBC Nationals. Many bowlers every year have their bowling balls fixed or corrected for illegal weights when getting weighed at Nationals. Bowling balls they have used for no telling how long. Many that have shot several honor scores with "illegal" bowling ball static weights.
In all actuality STATIC WEIGHTS DO NOT MATTER in todays world of bowling when it comes to the ball ever being checked for any leagues, honor scores and the vast majority of tournaments. Many league secretaries never even look at the ball, they just tell the bowler to write the ball manufacture and name on the score sheet. This is your USBC.
"1 of 1."
Edited by kidlost2000 on 1/12/2012 at 1:15 PM
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: milorafferty on January 12, 2012, 12:25:21 PM
Yea, I have had the same ball corrected twice. I Vegas I was using a new Virtual Gravity and it had a half ounce too much finger weight, so they corrected it. In Reno the following year, the ball weighed out just fine. But last year in Reno, the thumb weight was too high, so they had to correct that. The ball didn't roll any different.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: Bill Thomas on January 13, 2012, 02:18:13 PM
milo,
Was it the ball or the guy who weighed it. I had a ball turned down one year in Reno. Took it to the Storm booth who said there was noting wrong but removed the amount of finger weight that USBC insisted was too much. Took the ball back the next day and USBC (same guy) said it still had the same amount of excess finger weight. After some discussion with a supervisor USBC said the ball was legal and let me use it. That's the reason for my question to you.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: milorafferty on January 13, 2012, 02:22:19 PM
In Vegas, it was the ball. The reason I say that is the one guy used the electronic scales originally, then the guy who was making it legal weighed it on the manual scale, so I think it was just a tad finger heavy when it was originally drilled.
In Reno, I think it was just the guy who weighed it. I didn't complain either way though. I'm not a good enough bowler for a 1/4 oz or so to make a difference. LOL
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: 1fife on January 13, 2012, 07:13:11 PM
could have low top weight
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: TDC57 on January 13, 2012, 08:36:20 PM
In Vegas, I had a ball that didn't weigh out correctly even though my ball driller makes sure all balls are legal when they leave the shop. I didn't argue but the funny thing was the guy who weighed it said "do you want me to fix it or do you just want to keep it for league?" I think that pretty much sums up how much the USBC cares about if a ball is legal for league action.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: ithinkican on January 13, 2012, 11:13:42 PM
it could be illegal. but it sounds like the ball may have had a 2.5-3.5 inch pin. and if i have it pictured in my mind correctly. the ball that he is throwing doesnt have much top weight from the start. so it shouldnt have to have a balance hole if im not mistaken. there are too many variables to tell. but i can assure you that if this guy can roll a 300 with that ball, i can guarantee that he has it legal for tournaments too.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: Pat Patterson on January 13, 2012, 11:16:47 PM
I had the same thing happen to me in Vegas too. Had a Lane Masters Sure Strike that "Apparently" had too much side weight, at home prior to leaving it weighed out at 1/2 oz positive side. The guy said it would be legal for league play, but if I wanted to use it in the tourney I would need a weight hole to remove the side weight. Had him take out the appropriate amount, acccording to him removed so I could use there. When i got home I had it re-weighed and it had "0" side weight, which tells me their scale was off by at least 1/2 oz IMHO.
Pat Patterson
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: anorexicwonder on January 14, 2012, 06:31:27 AM
I do agree that the USBC rules are a complete joke. I have been called out twice recently for throwing "illegal" equipment.
#1. Just last year had to remove my Ebonite Pinnacle which is around 18 years old from play because someone remembered that they were notorious for punching up too low on the durometer. Sure enough, it punched up only a 69, but it's a friggin' PLASTIC BALL for pete's sake. I was using it for spares only at the time, so you can't possibly say that I had an unfair advantage over someone else in hooking ability.
#2. I bought a Detonator from Danny Wiseman awhile back and was throwing it well on dry lanes. This one I was forced to remove from play as well because the ball was privately poured and therefore not on the approved ball list. However, it should be grandfathered in because it was made sometime in the mid 80's and is only of 3-piece construction and a urethane shell. BUT, it violates current USBC rules because it doesn't have a MANUFACTURER'S LOGO somewhere on it. USBC said it was up to my league officials to decide whether I could use the ball or not. Jerk's said "no" to me, but they do allow others to throw their super high tech hook monsters.
This crap on top of being held responsible for league funds that MY TEAMMATE had stolen, I will never bowl in a USBC sanctioned tournament or league again. (The league held the entire team responsible for missing money, even though it was clear that the dirty work was done by only ONE person.)
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: Pinbuster on January 14, 2012, 08:00:19 AM
It is often hard to tell by visual inspection if a ball is out of compliance of static weights. The only solution is to weigh the ball. In a league setting it probably isn't worth the effort in my estimation.
The rules are not a joke but the bowlers/proshops who refuse to abide by them are.
The USBC/ABC has always relied on compliance by drillers to adhere to static weight rules. But today with so many scoffing at the rules and many drillers not even owning a scale it is little wonder so many balls are out of compliance.
No one wants to have to submit a ball for weighting before using in sanctioned competition. With the proliferation of honor scores an association would have very busy nights going around to different centers and certifying weights.
I will admit the training and skills of the weight room at nationals is suspect.
And if statics don't matter then balance all your balls with 0 finger and 0 side and there will be no question at nationals.
Title: Re: Legality of a ball in league play - Question
Post by: Locke on January 14, 2012, 10:09:02 PM
I have a Roto Grip Cell with the cg directly under the ring and the pin 3 inches over the bridge. Visually it looks illegal but we drilled the fingers all the way to the center of the ball to make it legal. I have thrown an honors score with it and had a great qualifying round at an event and both times an opponent called me on it. Both times they just went to the man in charge (league president and tournament director respectively) and complained. He had it weighed out by the proshop and we moved on. Personally, I wouldn't care if it was slightly illegal; you have to be throwing the ball incredibly well for a 300 no matter what.