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Author Topic: I got the concept wrong?  (Read 3645 times)

no300yet

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I got the concept wrong?
« on: February 23, 2010, 10:55:03 AM »
Various companies' drilling instruction say a "low pin" drilling would result in "earlier roll": good for heavy oil.

But after reading the MoRich drilling inst. I found out with high pin the ball would have the "maximum rev"!

Aren't we supposed to increase rev on heavy oil? I am confused...........

 

charlest

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 07:06:52 PM »
You're mixing up 2 concepts:
low pin versus high pin
and
pin close to the Val (1.5-2.5") and placing the pin a further distance from the VAL (3 -5").

Read Mo's double angle drillings again.
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no300yet

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 12:58:35 AM »
quote:
You're mixing up 2 concepts:
low pin versus high pin
and
pin close to the Val (1.5-2.5") and placing the pin a further distance from the VAL (3 -5").

Read Mo's double angle drillings again.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Jeff, I read it again and it still says," the smaller the angel to the VAL the ball will rev up the fastest.........". Don't you have to place the pin high in order to achieve that?


slashrr69

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2010, 01:41:08 AM »
the higher the pin the more length you will give the ball.. the lower the pin the quicker the ball will rev up(ealier roll)..

now for the higher pin the ball will want to transition/hook harder off the spot(dry).. the lower pin will want to roll earlier but will not transition/hook as hard off the spot(dry)..

the higher pin will give you a hockey stick shape hook/angularity to the pocket..
the lower pin will be more of a strong arcing move to the pocket..

Xcessive_Evil

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 02:54:26 AM »
I used to battle with this for a while, hopefully this will help.

As we know, the first drilling angle dictates how soon the ball will enter roll.  So with that said, the higher the number, the later it will get into a roll.

Next, the Pin to Pap.  Simply put, the longer the pin, the longer the skid-hook-roll phase.

Lastly, the Secondary angle to VAL.  This dictates what type of roll.  Lower numbers for angularity, higher for arcy.  

Now, pin-downs do get into a roll a bit sooner.  However, the length difference between pin up and pin down is not all that drastic.

I prefer pin ups on the fresh longer/heavier patterns because when my ball reaches the break point, there isn''t alot of dry area left prior to the pocket.  So I like having a fast transition.

I prefer pin downs on the shorter/lighter patterns because the backend is smoother, more predictable and more continuous.  I don''t have to worry about the proverbial "ball being kicked left".

To sum it up for me, I have an Invasion with a 35* 5" 20*(pin up)that I would never use on Cheetah.  The same can be said about using my Mars with a 78* 4.5" 68*(pin down) that I''d never use on Shark-at least not fresh anyway.
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Edited on 2/24/2010 3:55 AM

charlest

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 05:17:59 AM »
quote:
quote:
You're mixing up 2 concepts:
low pin versus high pin
and
pin close to the Val (1.5-2.5") and placing the pin a further distance from the VAL (3 -5").

Read Mo's double angle drillings again.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Jeff, I read it again and it still says," the smaller the angel to the VAL the ball will rev up the fastest.........". Don't you have to place the pin high in order to achieve that?




Xcessive_Evil has a good picture.

YOu don't have to place the pin high, but most times with smaller VALl angles, the pin will be above the level of the bridge area/finger holes. It's a combination of the pin-PAP distance and the VAL angle. Plus there's a big difference in asymmetric's vs symmetrics, w/r to the pin distance. For symmetrics, 5"pins will creat smaller flare, while asymmetrics/mass bias cores, youneed 2-2.5" pin-PAP to create smaller flares.

In older days, as we moved the pin straight up, the pin moved closer to the VAL (in Storm's vernacular it was a smaller pin buffer) and thus we got a quicker ball reaction to the dry. In other words, it went thru the skid/hook/roll cycle quicker.
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icewall

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 06:47:46 AM »
*read carefully*

in lame terms pin down GENERALLY means the ball will rev up EARLIER BUT ALSO LESS. (lower RG)
pin up revs up much later but more.

pin up revs up more because the ball actually ends up flaring more albeit *later on, usually in the backend*

obviously if theres a lot of oil you dont want quicker revs AFTER the oil. you want it to rev up earlier IN the oil even if it revs a bit less. make sense????


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dual angle layouts:


first angle /MB = how quicky the ball loses rotation / goes into forward roll
pin to pap = flare potential / friction possible (a little different for asymms as charlest said)
second angle = WHEN the ball revs up AND how quickly

the way mo puts it is that each angle effects the other in total ball reaction.

so if you had a large first angle in relation to the second angle = skid flip

if you had a small first angle in relation to the second angle = sooner / heavier roll


MO also simplifies it SOOOO much at the end:

Smaller angle sums should always be used for:

Speed dominant players
Higher axis tilt players
Longer oil patterns
Higher volumes of oil on the lane
Larger angle sums should always be used for:

Rev dominant players
Lower axis tilt players
Shorter oil patterns
Lower volumes of oil on the lane
Medium angle sums should always be used for players whose ball speed and rev rate match.

Keep this in mind -- the sum of the drilling angle and the angle to the VAL determines how quickly the ball transitions from skid to hook to roll. Using a smaller sum of the two angles will turn translational energy into rotational energy faster.  And the shape of the breakpoint can be controlled by changing the relationship between the drilling angle and the angle to the VAL.

Larger drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create later, sharper breakpoints (more backend).
Smaller drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create a sooner, heavier roll (more midlane).


SOOOOOO what would you do if you wanted help on heavy oil???? a sum of BOTH angles that is small.

it doesnt say anything about pin up or down. (its more complex then simply pin up or down)

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IF its a symmetrical ball:

val angle (second angle) still exists and will determine if the ball transitions fast when it reads friction or slow.

pin up raises RG
pin down lowers RG

--------------------
tweener
300 revs
16 mph


when you''''''''re feeling blue,
just say to yourself "what would BallBaggins do?"

Edited on 2/24/2010 8:00 AM

Edited on 2/24/2010 8:01 AM

Edited on 2/24/2010 8:03 AM

toomanytenpins

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 11:33:58 AM »
so let me see if i got this right,i have slower speed and dont see a great deal of oil,but what i am seeing is enough that what i ideally want is to be able to play a straighter more continuous shot if i drill my balls pin down with a big val angle. this drill is better for the straighter more accurate bowler. And because the ball is with a bigger angle it begins transition as soon as it reads friction and stronger balls read friction sooner even in the oil. So the baLL NEVER skids and at 60 feet because it was always transitioning you dont see the transition you want when you want it its always hooking.
   On lighter shorter oil in the pin under large angle drill the transition off friction is gradual and has less effect on the overall hook off this type drill. with my lower speed and less revs i can use these balls from deeper angles on lesser patterns because of this more gradual ttransition,where my pin up ball wont move for 45 50 feet but when it moves it moves so hard its high in the pocket the smaller angle drill is gradual and consistent to the pocket.
      So i should be drilling my balls with smaller angles for oil and bigger angles for dry. So to utilize the cover and weight blocks of strong balls you need a,"weaker drill". pin up small angle. so if i had drilled my mission 35x4x20,just a number this would have moved my mb away from my thumb put my pin up over my ring and i would have a ball that negotiates the oil as it should with a faster ,but later reaction to friction. More skid,(needed for low speed bowler),moer hook on back end,(because of later but stronger reaction to friction),and more role for playing deeper angles because the ball hadnt been fighting itself reading friction for 40ft. before it found friction. I dont believe it ,but i think i understand.Someone please tell me I'm close so i can go have these two balls ,MUtant and mission redrilled and fast,hell sounds like every ball i have ever thrown.

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slashrr69

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 12:16:36 PM »
tmtp
  this is such a fine line subject.. it all depends on what you see with the ball and how you want it to react when throwing the ball.. all bowlers are different and see different reactions.. some bowlers spot the dots, arrows, and even farther down lane.. this is going to make the ball do different tricks..
 to me I see the small pin buffer number reacts harder off the dry as does the smaller second degree number in the dual angle drillings(this is my take..) if you were to have a pattern with 40+ feet oil I would want the ball to read the midlane more and have a stronger continuous arc, not a hochey stick shaped hook(but this is me).. bigger pin buffers and larger second degree numbers are more of a continuous shaped arc reaction..
 more oil I want stronger cover that arc hard/continue/read the mids.. drier lanes I want length with a harder pop in the back for carry down and deeper angles..
 there are so many takes on this subject pin up, pin down, cover prpe to me is the biggest factor now adays.. but as I stated before it is in the eyes of the bowler to how he/she sees the ball rolling down the lane..

charlest

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 12:39:12 PM »
This is a not a 3-second summary kind of topic.
 
If you want an in-depth explanation, Mo is THE best person from whom you can get every fine detail. He holds deep discussions of these over on BowlingChat's forums: http://forum.bowlingchat.net/index.php and he seems more than willing to share all he knows when you bring him your full information, and the condition  you're bowling on. He does not focus on his designed bowling balls but will answer thos questions also. Read the "Mo and Friends" forum as a guest, but you need to register to ask him detailed questions.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Laybzz74

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 12:54:12 PM »
WOW ... I'm DIZZY !!!
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slap

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 01:59:29 PM »
Charlest is correct...you are mixing up two concepts "Mo speak" roll and rev are two distinct terms.

In the Dual Angle System..

"Roll" is partially controlled by the drilling angle. This is referred to as the "first transition," from skid to hook. Smaller drilling angles cause earlier "roll" or a faster first transition. This occurs in the front part of the lane.

"Rev" is partially controlled by the angle to the VAL. This is related to the response time to friction. A smaller angle to VAL creates maximum "rev" shortens the "hook zone" and increases the response time to friction. All of which increases angularity. This occurs in the backend of the lane.
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no300yet

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Re: I got the concept wrong?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2010, 11:44:25 PM »

WOW! I can see clearly now! Thank you sooooo much for taking your time to clarify this! Mainly I learned that keeping the "drilling angle" small will result in heavier forward roll, which I need. Also my Cells never flare much because Pin to Pap distance is only about 2-1/2 to 3 inch.

More experiments coming.......will get 1 new ball and some old balls re-drilled. Thanks again!